Misinformation?

[Hann1]

well, all information about how the snarl was created, what happened to the eastern gods and world 1.0 and how the snarl was imprisoned, basically was delivered through many generations so the thought comes to mind that it might be not 100% accurate cause it might be altered in soe way during this long amount of time

Another point: What is the original source of information, may there have been some kind of motive to give out wrong/altered information?

This would make guessing about what happened inside the rifts much more difficult. Example: If the eastern gods weren't killed by the snarl, but trapped within world 2.0 together with him maybe they build another world to trap him inside, of which they are the only gods.

I dont think rich has intended it to be this way, but it might be worth some speculation.

Any thoughts?

[Mant]

This totally needed a whole new thread

[Cerrakoth]

Wasn't Shojo, the son of the guy who created the saphire city gate?

[The Rose Dragon]

Wasn't Shojo, the son of the guy who created the saphire city gate?

No, he was simply the son of the previous Lord, who assumed the role of the sapphire's guardian from Soon.

[NerfTW]

Do we really need eight million new threads to point out what we already know?

The gods left some information out of the story. Something funky is going on inside the rift/planet.


Can we just use one of the threads that already exist? You are not the first person to figure out that there is misinformation, especially since V STATES IT IN THE COMIC.

[Optimystik]

Yipe, guys. A stick figure comic is serious business, apparently.

To answer the OP's question, we have two main sources of information on the Snarl: Shojo's story in the Crayons of Time, and Redcloak's in SoD. We have reasons to distrust both (Soon cannot lie, but Shojo definitely could; Redcloak had no reason to lie, but may have been deceived by the Dark One.) For motive, Right-Eye cast doubt on the Dark One's devotion to the goblin people in SoD; if he is right, then the Dark One had reason to deceive his clerics about the nature of the Snarl. Shojo's motive for any falsehood is less clear, and indeed I don't think he lied.

[Fitzclowningham]

I think Shojo was telling what he thought was the truth. If there's something the gods want people to stay away from, telling them it hides an abomination capable of killing gods and destroying souls is a good way to do it. Also, I think the gods may have lied to the Dark One, but am having a hard time figuring why the evil gods would go along with the good ones on that.

[factotum]

Shojo's motive for any falsehood is less clear, and indeed I don't think he lied.

Maybe he didn't, and maybe Soon didn't either. They could have both been misled by other powers. As I stated in the main thread, the only place Soon could have found out about World #1 and the Greek pantheon was from the Gods themselves, because no-one else was around at the time those events took place; so, assuming the Gods have some reason to lie, they could quite easily have done so.

What that reason might be is a more complicated issue!

[Optimystik]

Maybe he didn't, and maybe Soon didn't either. They could have both been misled by other powers. As I stated in the main thread, the only place Soon could have found out about World #1 and the Greek pantheon was from the Gods themselves, because no-one else was around at the time those events took place; so, assuming the Gods have some reason to lie, they could quite easily have done so.

What that reason might be is a more complicated issue!

The problem with this theory is that the Scribble themselves DID encounter their own empirical evidence on the Snarl - Mijung and Kraagor's irreversible deaths, the nature of the rifts and how to seal them. Lirian herself specifically mentions the Snarl in SoD (rather than just the rifts), and not during a flashback either, so they definitely believe it exists. It's true that the gods could have deceived them too, but you'd think that an epic party, complete with a wizard and naturist working in complete tandem, would have suspected foul play at some point.

[Zevox]

Ultimately, I don't think we can assume what the OP suggested about the story having changed in the telling. It did not go through many steps before reaching us.

The original source of it is the gods. They informed the Order of the Scribble, and through Soon, Shojo's father learned it, and through him Shojo himself learned it. Similarly, they informed the Dark One about it, and he informed Redcloak about it. Those two are the ones who informed us, and the story did not go through many intermediaries to reach them, especially in Redcloak's case. Moreover, the two stories match each other perfectly, and it's pretty unlikely that both the Dark One and Soon/Shojo's father/Shojo would both change the same part of the story to deceive the individuals they were telling it to. They have vastly different motives and goals.

No, whatever flaw there is in that story - if there is indeed a flaw - originates with the gods. Whether in their limited perceptions, or in deliberate misinformation, or in something else, we don't have enough information to say, but they're the source of it all one way or another.

Zevox

[Optimystik]

The original source of it is the gods. They informed the Order of the Scribble, and through Soon, Shojo's father learned it, and through him Shojo himself learned it.

I have to disagree, or at least present an alternate theory. Shojo's exact words were "through diligent study and magical inquiry, they were able to guess at (the rifts') nature." He does not mention the gods as being the sole source, or even any source, of the Scribble's knowledge of the Snarl. Note also that among the Scribble, only Soon had a strong connection to the gods; Lirian's power comes from nature itself (Druids are not required to revere a deity), and Dorukan's conclusions are much more likely to have come from empirical observation than any divine augury.

Now, there is a chance that Shojo was mislead, and that the Scribble's knowledge did come primarily from the gods, but Dorukan and Lirian being the group's thinkers makes this unlikely.

[Zevox]

I have to disagree, or at least present an alternate theory. Shojo's exact words were "through diligent study and magical inquiry, they were able to guess at (the rifts') nature." He does not mention the gods as being the sole source, or even any source, of the Scribble's knowledge of the Snarl. Note also that among the Scribble, only Soon had a strong connection to the gods; Lirian's power comes from nature itself (Druids are not required to revere a deity), and Dorukan's conclusions are much more likely to have come from empirical observation than any divine augury.

Now, there is a chance that Shojo was mislead, and that the Scribble's knowledge did come primarily from the gods, but Dorukan and Lirian being the group's thinkers makes this unlikely.
Except that, as I believe another poster pointed out, it would impossible for them to learn information about the dead gods of the east through any source but the gods, since they were the only beings surviving who remember them.

Zevox

[Rotipher]

Not true. Other planes weren't affected by the Snarl, so extraplanar visitors or World 1.0 refugees who'd escaped via planar travel could also be a source of information. Heck, even Sabine might've been a witness to some of it, if she was seducing mortals on Stickworld Mk. 1 back then: we know she's older than World 2.0 from her own statements.

[Optimystik]

Except that, as I believe another poster pointed out, it would impossible for them to learn information about the dead gods of the east through any source but the gods, since they were the only beings surviving who remember them.

Zevox

Soon's (and therefore Shojo's) knowledge of the Eastern gods could have come from other sources, as Rotipher said. We are talking about beings that hid knowledge of the Snarl even from other gods. Why would they confide in mortals? I still say the Scribble discovered whatever lore they did on their own.

[Ubergeek]

Not true. Other planes weren't affected by the Snarl, so extraplanar visitors or World 1.0 refugees who'd escaped via planar travel could also be a source of information. Heck, even Sabine might've been a witness to some of it, if she was seducing mortals on Stickworld Mk. 1 back then: we know she's older than World 2.0 from her own statements.

Actually, according to Shojo, the Snarl's prison existed in multiple dimensions, all of which were basically built around the snarl to keep it trapped.

I kinda inferred from that, (though I could be wrong) that the world the Snarl destroyed was the entire universe, not just one planet. The gods then rebuilt the entire universe around the Snarl. The other planes cannot be trapping the snarl if they were built before the snarl's rampage. It plainly stated that the gods could not alter the nature of the planes (like restoring the rifts) without completely rebuilding them.

[David Argall]

Now A-We know there is something wrong with our knowledge of the situation. but B-we don't know how seriously wrong. So our best attitude is to C-assume the problem is fairly minimal. This is the normal case with knowledge. New knowledge can make massive differences, but routinely the differences are not that huge. Most of us live lives where thinking the world is flat makes only minimal difference. It won't stop, or help, you get a date for Saturday night.
So we are most likely correct to assume our previous knowledge was almost right instead of being wildly wrong. We can assume the previous reports were completely right [or wrong in some cases since they don't entirely agree] and should do so until we get some information that is more precise.

Of course there is a good chance we won't get that sort of information for a year or two.
We have a pretty full calendar for the next book, covering Haley and her father, and the twins and their parent[s], besides the gate. So there really isn't room for much about this new world.
A storyline we might be following is that the destruction of the next gate will lead to the entire party, possibly including Team Evil, being tossed into the new world, with the party then discovering the "true" facts, and needing a way to "escape" back home in book 6. That would mean discovering about zero about this new world for around 180 strips, and discovering secrets about in only well into the next books, a total that could exceed 300 strips. So don't be rushing to refresh in the hopes you will soon discover the answer.

[Zevox]

Not true. Other planes weren't affected by the Snarl
Source please. I don't recall it ever being stated whether other planes were or were not affected by the Snarl. The only thing I can think of which could be construed as a comment about that is that the gods "hid in their outer plane homes," which is a bit ambiguous, since we don't know how, exactly, the planes in the OotS world are structured, and whether the gods' domains are separate from or a part of the major Planescape planes.


I still say the Scribble discovered whatever lore they did on their own.
And I say that seems impossible. No mortals survived the Snarl's rampage to tell anyone about it in the second world, and this knowledge has been portrayed as an incredible secret unknown to any save the Sapphire Guard, Order of the Scribble, and Redcloak. Even our bookworm elf V was totally unaware of it, even in rumor or myth form, before hearing Shojo's tale, and the Sapphire Guard apparently considers it a major secret, considering how reluctant Shojo had to appear to be to inform the Order about it.

Zevox

[Jagos]

Actually, he's right. The remaining gods hid in their Outer Plane homes, hoping the Snarl would not discover them. They hid for centuries. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0274.html)

[Zevox]

...you didn't read past the first line of my post, did you?

Zevox

[Jagos]

I read the first part of the first post... >_>;

*goes to hide in a corner*

[Optimystik]

And I say that seems impossible. No mortals survived the Snarl's rampage to tell anyone about it in the second world, and this knowledge has been portrayed as an incredible secret unknown to any save the Sapphire Guard, Order of the Scribble, and Redcloak. Even our bookworm elf V was totally unaware of it, even in rumor or myth form, before hearing Shojo's tale, and the Sapphire Guard apparently considers it a major secret, considering how reluctant Shojo had to appear to be to inform the Order about it.

Zevox

If the gods told the Scribble about the Snarl, why would they have to "guess at" the nature of the rifts? Why would "diligent study" be required? They'd know exactly what they were: holes in the Snarl's prison. And again I ask, who would they have told in the Scribble? Soon? Lirian? Dorukan? They had no clerics to cast Commune, even assuming the gods would have answered for fear of their dread secret getting out.

If the gods told them anything, it was spotty and incomplete at best, or they wouldn't have to go poking around on their own.

[Rizzer]

My guess is that the Snarl itself created the alternate world behind the rift. When it killed the Greek gods and others, it was doing so to defend its baby from harm. Like a tigress protecting her cubs. The misinformation is that the Snarl is intrinsically evil and malevolent.

[Thanatosia]

Several of the gods are presumably Lawful Good and thus unlikely to lie, especialy the ones Soon is most likely to communicate with. I don't think the crayons of Time info is deliberate misinformation... they are all, gods included, working with incomplete information.

The Snarl has been left to itself for a very very long time.

[factotum]

The misinformation is that the Snarl is intrinsically evil and malevolent.

That statement itself is misinformation, because the Snarl has never been presented as evil or malevolent. It is a mindless being of pure chaos, who seeks to undo creation purely because that makes everything more chaotic.

[Zevox]

If the gods told the Scribble about the Snarl, why would they have to "guess at" the nature of the rifts? Why would "diligent study" be required? They'd know exactly what they were: holes in the Snarl's prison. And again I ask, who would they have told in the Scribble? Soon? Lirian? Dorukan? They had no clerics to cast Commune, even assuming the gods would have answered for fear of their dread secret getting out.

If the gods told them anything, it was spotty and incomplete at best, or they wouldn't have to go poking around on their own.
And yet we also have these lines from the final panels of this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0275.html) strip:

But the gods chose not to tell any of their followers of the horrid beast that lay just beyond their plane.

The gods feared that there would some day be a mortal who sought to free the Snarl, so they kept their secret.

Sadly, this meant that even the most learned in the ways of arcane lore were caught unprepared...
...when holes appeared in the Snarl's prison.
So, tell me: if "even the most learned in the ways of arcane lore" knew absolutely nothing about the Snarl before the holes started to appear, how could the Order of the Scribble learn what they did without getting their information from the gods? Moreover, how could Shojo know the gods' reasons for not revealing this story before the holes appeared without the information having come from them?

Hell, this is also a very strong indication that extraplanar beings other than the gods are not survivors of the first world capable of informing mortals about this, since if they were, you would expect that "the most learned in the ways of arcane lore" would have some inkling of the Snarl's existence by that point. And it occurs to me that there is more evidence of that: the IFCC. They had to be informed about all this by Sabine. And they're Archfiends. Of three different races of fiends. If any powerful outsiders knew about the Snarl and World 1.0, ones such as they would be at the top of the list I'd expect to know.

Zevox

[Optimystik]

And yet we also have these lines from the final panels of this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0275.html) strip:

You just supported my point. The gods didn't want to tell their followers anything, and that includes Soon. But neither druids nor wizards fall under their jurisdiction.


So, tell me: if "even the most learned in the ways of arcane lore" knew absolutely nothing about the Snarl before the holes started to appear, how could the Order of the Scribble learn what they did without getting their information from the gods? Moreover, how could Shojo know the gods' reasons for not revealing this story before the holes appeared without the information having come from them?

Not all divinations have deific sources. Neither Legend Lore nor Vision depend on deities for information, nor do druid spells like Commune with Nature, and those are just core. As I said, they can collect evidence empirically through other means besides the gods.

As for Shojo, he had it from Soon, who had it from his studious teammates.

[Rizzer]

That statement itself is misinformation, because the Snarl has never been presented as evil or malevolent.

Well, I'm conflating "deicidal maniac" and "god-killing abomination" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0275.html) with "malevolent", and hence evil.

[Caffiene]

Random thought, here, but... it seems obvious there is misinformation flying about from somewhere. We know this because V gets a conflicting story in 672 to the previous stories we've been told.

But my thought is this: Why do we assume that its the gods spreading misinformation (intentionally or unintentionally), when the other half of the conflicting info comes straight out of the mouth of a certain birdly familiar who is know for taking opportunities to spite V and get hir into trouble?

"Wait, theres a world in there! You cant simply defeat the snarl!" ... and team evil rubs their hands gleefully as the OotS twist themselves in knots trying to save a hidden world based on the say-so of a single spiteful bird.

Stranger things have happened.

[Katana_Geldar]

I'll put my historian hat on and say we need to examine the sources, their possible origins, and the potential for bias.

Shojo, form his father, from Soon

Source: Here it is possibly Divine (given the dead gods that no one had heard of) but given that there was research done (as evidenced by Shojo) it is posisbly a mixture and therefore full of holes.
An interesting question is how they got this information, the Divine stuff as well as the rest of the stuff, given that it is incomplete it makes you wonder how reliable it is.
Bias: The gods want to keep the Snarl contained rather than go to the bother of making a new world, even though by now they can see that keeping the Snarl contained (even with the gates) is not really working. I can totally see someone like Soon going along with the plan of the gods Because Thou Must

Redcloak, directly from the Dark One

Source: No dispute here, directly from the Dark One but does the Dark One know everything? Not all of the gods trust him, if I recall. And we can't forget what Left-eye says of the Dark One, how he's just some pissed-off goblin with a grudge.
Bias: Because the Dark One comes with his own emotional baggage cart that he passes on to Redcloak. Redcloak embraces it wholeheartedly, completely without question and at considerable personal expense. That's a HUGE amount of bias stating you right in the face.

One thing also we have to consider is the fact that we have two halves of the same story that has no join in the middle. What is missing? Why is this missing?

And that is your historiography lesson for today, boys and girls.

[Jagos]

Let's not forget that ANY information that Soon's Paladins found was quickly destroyed so that no one can use the snarl for malicious intent.

[Random832]

So, tell me: if "even the most learned in the ways of arcane lore" knew absolutely nothing about the Snarl before the holes started to appear, how could the Order of the Scribble learn what they did without getting their information from the gods?

Because epic knowledge checks don't have to make sense - see also the Omniscificer.

[Katana_Geldar]

One thing that I thought of when doing the historiographic stuff, is that it's totally possible that Roy will Take a Third Option that isn't rebuilding the gates or using the snarl to hold the gods to ransom.

I have no idea what this "third option" might be, but the world within the snarl shows that it is possible.

[factotum]

Well, I'm conflating "deicidal maniac" and "god-killing abomination" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0275.html) with "malevolent", and hence evil.

The statements as quoted still don't imply evil--one suggests insanity, and the other is just a true statement since the Snarl had killed gods and was almost certainly an abomination from the point of view of the ones it DIDN'T kill. Note they didn't seem to care about the entire world and all its people that the Snarl had destroyed, though!

[Hann1]

The statements as quoted still don't imply evil--one suggests insanity, and the other is just a true statement since the Snarl had killed gods and was almost certainly an abomination from the point of view of the ones it DIDN'T kill. Note they didn't seem to care about the entire world and all its people that the Snarl had destroyed, though!
I'd certainly call randomly killing gods an evil act. Also: "just" a true statement? When I say "x killed y" it might be true, but it being true doesn't change the fact that its "evil". Isn't this drifting a little offtopic?


If I offended someone by opening this thread, cause there are similar around already, I wanna excuse for this. Since in some other threads i browsed recently this possibility was ignored I just figured this had not been brought up(though on second thought it seems kind of unlikely to me :smallbiggrin:).

To summarize: the sources known are Redcloak(Dark One), Shoujo(Soon->OotScribble) and Blackwing(the planet he saw changes things quite a bit and probably has triggered most of this speculation) of which I'd say Blackwing is for now the least to distrust. That being said, what we recently got to know through Blackwing is difficult to put in relation with what is already known from the other sources.

Theories:
1. No corrupt information, the world blackwing has seen was created by means yet unknown
2. Information from Redcloak/Shoujo is corrupt, the world 1.0 wasn't destroyed
3. Information from Redcloak/Shoujo is corrupt, the eastern gods(or some of them) didnt die and weaved another world (3.0?)inside the rifts to capture the the snarl inside :smalltongue:
4. Information from Redcloak/Shoujo is corrupt, the world blackwing has seen was created by other means than mentioned in 2. and 3. (yet unknown)
5. Information from Blackwing is corrupt, there is only the Snarl inside the Rift, which hasn't acted so for for reasons unknown (question: why did Blackwing supply false information?)
6. None of the information is correct

I'd say the likelyness of those 4 theories beginning with the most likely to be true is 2,3,4,1,5,6

Hann1

[factotum]

I'd certainly call randomly killing gods an evil act.

Depends on the motivation. Belkar killing the nameless thief at the Battle of Azure City certainly wasn't a Good act, even though it saved Hinjo, because his motivation was to get the Mark of Justice removed and enjoy a lifetime of unfettered killing. As best we can tell, the Snarl is mindless, so it doesn't really HAVE a motivation for doing stuff; therefore you can't really call it good or evil, any more than you can call a lion evil if it kills a human being for food--the lion is just doing what is natural to it, there is no malevolence there.

[Optimystik]

That statement itself is misinformation, because the Snarl has never been presented as evil or malevolent. It is a mindless being of pure chaos, who seeks to undo creation purely because that makes everything more chaotic.

A mind is not necessary to be evil if one's entire being is dedicated to hatred of life. See also: manes, dretches, Garagos, and lots and lots of undead.

There may be more to the Snarl's story than we see here, but the story as presented makes it evil.


And that is your historiography lesson for today, boys and girls.

You forgot one important source: The Order of the Scribble themselves, specifically Lirian who mentioned the Snarl twice (rather than just the rifts.)

[hamishspence]

Garagos is CN in Faiths & Pantheons- he only became CE in 4th ed.

The Leviathan in Elder Evils, the most Snarl-ish of them "driven to reduce all it encounters to ruin and nothingness" is also CN.

Its "hatefulness" rather than destructiveness, is a more likely symptom of Evil alignment.

[Optimystik]

Its "hatefulness" rather than destructiveness, is a more likely symptom of Evil alignment.

That's what I said!

[hamishspence]

Though Garagos is a bit out of place on that list. There isn't much about him being "hateful"- just destructive, which is why I drew attention to it.

[Optimystik]

Though Garagos is a bit out of place on that list. There isn't much about him being "hateful"- just destructive, which is why I drew attention to it.

"Though chaotic neutral, the debased, insane Garagos stands on the brink of evil. A nearly elemental force of destruction, the Reaver has no allies in the pantheons of Abeir-Toril—the other gods deal with Garagos simply by staying away from him. Despite his vacant mind, Garagos still harbors deep resentment against Tempus and his catspaw, the Red Knight."

He's a bit more willful in his actions than even the Snarl.

[hamishspence]

If he's a bit more wilful, does that mean the Snarl, like him, could be on the CE/CN border?

[Optimystik]

If he's a bit more wilful, does that mean the Snarl, like him, could be on the CE/CN border?

That depends on how much of the Snarl's actions are instinct and how much are malice. But then, you knew that :smallsmile:

My point to factotum was that malice doesn't require deep thought. It is possible to be both mindless and hateful. Even a bear doesn't maul every living thing it comes across, or even everything that it normally would prey on.

[Zevox]

You just supported my point. The gods didn't want to tell their followers anything, and that includes Soon. But neither druids nor wizards fall under their jurisdiction.
You're nitpicking words. Quite obviously, if the point was to prevent any mortals from trying to free the Snarl, it would be idiotic in the extreme to tell any mortals about the Snarl, and more so to tell those who are more likely to want that (such as ambitious wizards) while hiding it from those devoted to them, who would oppose such people.

Plus, likely, the gods consider all mortals their followers to one degree or another, even if they're only giving them lip service. It's not exactly likely that there are any atheists in a fantasy setting such as this.


Not all divinations have deific sources. Neither Legend Lore nor Vision depend on deities for information, nor do druid spells like Commune with Nature, and those are just core. As I said, they can collect evidence empirically through other means besides the gods.
And you would allow mortal divinations like Legend Lore or Vision to acquire information that is only possessed by the gods, who are not willing to give it up? Or worse, Commune with Nature, which tells you only things about the natural terrain and creatures around you - things which the Rifts most distinctly are not? If so, you are far and away more generous with those spells than I.

Zevox

[David Argall]

Corrupt information? Let's consider...

Blackwing? Quite unlikely. We have no known motives for him to lie, and as a familiar, he is assumed to be the tool of the master, not with any urges to lead the master astray. Then we have the rules of drama. We have this dramatic picture and it turns out it is just an illusion after we have spent years speculating about it? Boo... And our writer has always been big about foreshadowing, not fooling the reader. So the information from Blackwing should be trusted fully.

Redcloak? Very clear risk. He is the evil cleric of an evil god, and both are eager to promote their evil mission. Either or both would twist the information or create facts out of whole cloth if they felt it would promote their mission, and they are able to see complex ways of reaching their goal.
But Redcloak seems to fully believe most or all of what he tells us, and if he tells any lies, he tells them consistently. SoD Right-eye challenges him as lying, but only on one point, not his general story. So Redcloak has been consistent in telling his lies, or believes his story.
Now his god is another problem here. He automatically makes the story 2nd or 3rd hand, and that much more unreliable. Moreover, parts of the god's story on other matters are distinctly suspicious. So his story is not to be trusted. However, he is acting as if his story were true, apparently going to a lot of trouble to control this gate. So Redcloak's story is to be view skeptically, but it seems to be true enough in the broad outlines at least.

Shojo? He too is a man with a mission, and is known to be a complete liar. Nothing he says can be trusted. But he too seems to believe in what he is saying. He risked his job, freedom, and, it turned out, his life, on the theory he was largely telling the truth. Again, any detail may be false, but it seems we should trust the basic story.

We have other sources, but they are of minor importance. They do seem to again confirm the basic story. But there is nothing here we really need to consider too closely.

So our basic story seems well confirmed. We can see some drastic changes. [The party could end up fighting for the Snarl instead of against it.] But ideas like the Snarl never existing are pretty much ruled out.

How did the Scribble find out about the Snarl? There are a variety of possible sources, many of them probably completely unknown to us. Since Sabine is 3000 years old, and is not an unusual fiend in that, we can posit any number and variety of immortals who might or might not know about the Snarl. [Note too that having 4 groups of gods making a world makes it distinctly likely there are other gods, probably large numbers of them, that make no appearance on camera.] It's not too unreasonable to think all the mages/priests/scholars who contacted these before the Snarl reappeared didn't waste valuable time asking about whether the world contained a world destroying monster. But once the rifts were discovered, it's not that hard to ask around about them, and just blunder onto something that knows something.

[factotum]

"Though chaotic neutral, the debased, insane Garagos stands on the brink of evil.

Which kind of proves my point--being on the BRINK of evil means he is not actually evil yet, despite doing all those horrible things!

[Optimystik]

You're nitpicking words.

No, I'm not. Your quote directly supports the premise that the gods had no interest in sharing knowledge of the Snarl. If they weren't willing to tell their followers, who would they have been willing to tell? Random commoners? Supporters of opposing faiths? It makes no sense.


Quite obviously, if the point was to prevent any mortals from trying to free the Snarl, it would be idiotic in the extreme to tell any mortals about the Snarl, and more so to tell those who are more likely to want that (such as ambitious wizards) while hiding it from those devoted to them, who would oppose such people.

The thing about ambitious wizards, a fact you keep glossing over, is that they can find out things WITHOUT the gods express consent. That's the whole idea behind arcane magic - a power source for mortals that isn't controlled by philosophy or piety.


Plus, likely, the gods consider all mortals their followers to one degree or another, even if they're only giving them lip service. It's not exactly likely that there are any atheists in a fantasy setting such as this.

You're still supporting my point! If the gods consider all mortals their followers, that means they hid knowledge of the Snarl from everyone! So the Scribble must have gotten their knowledge themselves, as I've been saying all along!


And you would allow mortal divinations like Legend Lore or Vision to acquire information that is only possessed by the gods, who are not willing to give it up? Or worse, Commune with Nature, which tells you only things about the natural terrain and creatures around you - things which the Rifts most distinctly are not? If so, you are far and away more generous with those spells than I.

Zevox

Read Commune with Nature again: it gives information on "the presence of powerful or unnatural creatures" and "the general state of the natural setting." A rift in reality to the Snarl's prison qualifies as both, and given that all the rifts were in wilderness areas before the Scribble found them, her spell would have functioned equally well on each.

As for Legend Lore and Vision, the gods did spill the beans: to the Dark One, who imbued the story into his cloak. It certainly qualifies as a legend, even if it is dumped wholesale into the mind of the goblin who wears it without a verbal recounting.

But even if they didn't, the rifts began to appear before the Dark One was even aware of them, and they were clearly visible to mortals. Legend Lore can pick up the stories of people's interactions with them (such as the goblin cleric that tried to throw a chicken inside), circumventing the gods completely.

So no, "generosity" has nothing to do with it; merely logic.

[Zevox]

No, I'm not. Your quote directly supports the premise that the gods had no interest in sharing knowledge of the Snarl. If they weren't willing to tell their followers, who would they have been willing to tell? Random commoners? Supporters of opposing faiths? It makes no sense.
How about a group of heroic adventurers who want to do something about the holes that have suddenly appeared in the prison of the god-killing abomination that does involve unmaking reality to remake the prison entirely?


You're still supporting my point! If the gods consider all mortals their followers, that means they hid knowledge of the Snarl from everyone! So the Scribble must have gotten their knowledge themselves, as I've been saying all along!
Here's where we disagree, then. You think that if a piece of information is known only to the gods - not by any mortals, not by any outsiders, not by anyone but the gods - it is still possible for mortals to acquire knowledge of it without it coming from the gods. I do not.


Read Commune with Nature again: it gives information on "the presence of powerful or unnatural creatures" and "the general state of the natural setting." A rift in reality to the Snarl's prison qualifies as both, and given that all the rifts were in wilderness areas before the Scribble found them, her spell would have functioned equally well on each.
And how, pray tell, is a rift in reality "natural"? How could a mere mortal spell, which supposedly acquires its information from nature, which would not know anything about the Snarl, tell someone who cast it that?


As for Legend Lore and Vision, the gods did spill the beans: to the Dark One, who imbued the story into his cloak. It certainly qualifies as a legend, even if it is dumped wholesale into the mind of the goblin who wears it without a verbal recounting.
You're still being far and away too generous with that spell, I'd say. The Dark One is another god, so his knowing is no different than the other gods knowing. The Crimson Mantle is an artifact creation of his, and we don't know if the information is actually contained within it, or if he simply bestows the information on whichever Goblin puts on the cloak the first time they do. Either way though, I don't think it would qualify, as in my mind something has to be known by more than just a single individual specifically chosen by his god to qualify as a legend. Especially when the gods specifically wish to keep that knowledge from others.

And in any event, you're also ignoring the matter of when the Dark One learned about the Snarl. Start of Darkness tells us that it was 65 years ago (Redcloak says 35 years ago, and that scene took place 30 years ago according to the comic). A year after this comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html) says the Order of the Scribble's journeys began. Even if we use your interpretation of things above, how could the Oot Scribble learn anything from something that didn't exist yet when they undertook their journey?


But even if they didn't, the rifts began to appear before the Dark One was even aware of them, and they were clearly visible to mortals. Legend Lore can pick up the stories of people's interactions with them (such as the goblin cleric that tried to throw a chicken inside), circumventing the gods completely.
Problem: merely interacting with the rifts wouldn't tell those people anything other than that they're dangerous. All the history behind them could not have been gleaned that way.

Zevox

[Optimystik]

How about a group of heroic adventurers who want to do something about the holes that have suddenly appeared in the prison of the god-killing abomination that does involve unmaking reality to remake the prison entirely?

But there is a contradiction here. Are the adventurers not their followers then? Because you said earlier; the gods didn't want to tell their followers, and everyone is considered a follower.


Here's where we disagree, then. You think that if a piece of information is known only to the gods - not by any mortals, not by any outsiders, not by anyone but the gods - it is still possible for mortals to acquire knowledge of it without it coming from the gods. I do not.

WHY not? The gods used reality to build their prison. Why wouldn't reality itself have a record of what is contained inside?

Let's say I have the ability to speak with inanimate objects - an ability that DOES exist in D&D, might I add. I ask a prison door who or what is locked behind it. Is a god's involvement necessary for the door to tell me?


And how, pray tell, is a rift in reality "natural"? How could a mere mortal spell, which supposedly acquires its information from nature, which would not know anything about the Snarl, tell someone who cast it that?

I repeat: The spell specifically detects powerful unnatural creatures. Does the Snarl not qualify? And why would Nature be unaware of a big gaping hole in reality in the middle of the forest? Your supposition is counterintuitive.


You're still being far and away too generous with that spell, I'd say. The Dark One is another god, so his knowing is no different than the other gods knowing. The Crimson Mantle is an artifact creation of his, and we don't know if the information is actually contained within it, or if he simply bestows the information on whichever Goblin puts on the cloak the first time they do. Either way though, I don't think it would qualify, as in my mind something has to be known by more than just a single individual specifically chosen by his god to qualify as a legend. Especially when the gods specifically wish to keep that knowledge from others.

Read Legend Lore again.

"Characters who are 11th level or higher, the creatures they contend with, the major magic items they wield, etc." are legendary. The Snarl is certainly above 11th level because it can tussle with gods.

More important is this bit: "When completed, the divination brings legends (if any) about the person, place, or things to your mind. These may be legends that are still current, legends that have been forgotten, or even information that has never been generally known."

That's right, it can provide information even if it is kept completely secret, known only to a few entities, by RAW.


And in any event, you're also ignoring the matter of when the Dark One learned about the Snarl. Start of Darkness tells us that it was 65 years ago (Redcloak says 35 years ago, and that scene took place 30 years ago according to the comic). A year after this comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html) says the Order of the Scribble's journeys began. Even if we use your interpretation of things above, how could the Oot Scribble learn anything from something that didn't exist yet when they undertook their journey?

I'm not an expert on the timeline by any means, but I don't have to be. The Scribble started their investigation before they knew what the Snarl really was, because of what it had done to Mijung. The divinations could have come at any point after her death, including after the Dark One found out the story and passed it on to his Chosen.


Problem: merely interacting with the rifts wouldn't tell those people anything other than that they're dangerous. All the history behind them could not have been gleaned that way.

Zevox

They, or rather their edges, are composed of reality. Matter. Anything that interacts with reality (such as Divination spells) can interact with them, and therefore information on what is behind them can be garnered that way.

[Zevox]

But there is a contradiction here. Are the adventurers not their followers then? Because you said earlier; the gods didn't want to tell their followers, and everyone is considered a follower.
You're missing the point I was making by raising that whole part. I don't think the gods would never reveal anything about the Snarl even now - my original point was that they had to have told the Order of the Scribble about the matter, remember? I pointed out that strip because it shows that they did not ever reveal this information to anyone before the holes appeared in the Snarl's prison. And, in your argument, they would therefore not have revealed it to anyone at all. And therefore the Order of the Scribble could never have learned of it. That's why I think your argument is ridiculous.


WHY not? The gods used reality to build their prison. Why wouldn't reality itself have a record of what is contained inside?
...what? How the hell would that work? "Reality" is not a being, or some recording device - it's just what we call everything that exists.


Let's say I have the ability to speak with inanimate objects - an ability that DOES exist in D&D, might I add.
In what? I've never heard of such an ability. And would consider it ridiculous, I might add. Inanimate objects have no mind. No intelligence. No ability to know, remember, or comprehend anything. Magic which changed that could not retroactively give it the ability to remember things from before it had a mind. It just does not make sense.


I repeat: The spell specifically detects powerful unnatural creatures. Does the Snarl not qualify?
The Snarl is in another plane of existence. If some part of it were sticking out, perhaps it's presence could be detected - but again, I do not believe the spell would be able to provide information that "nature" cannot possibly possess, which any specifics about the Snarl, or especially it's history, would be.


Read Legend Lore again.

"Characters who are 11th level or higher, the creatures they contend with, the major magic items they wield, etc." are legendary. The Snarl is certainly above 11th level because it can tussle with gods.

More important is this bit: "When completed, the divination brings legends (if any) about the person, place, or things to your mind. These may be legends that are still current, legends that have been forgotten, or even information that has never been generally known."

That's right, it can provide information even if it is kept completely secret, known only to a few entities, by RAW.
Then my problem there lies with the way that spell is written, as I do not believe magic should be able to pull knowledge that nobody and nothing possesses out of thin air.


I'm not an expert on the timeline by any means, but I don't have to be. The Scribble started their investigation before they knew what the Snarl really was, because of what it had done to Mijung. The divinations could have come at any point after her death, including after the Dark One found out the story and passed it on to his Chosen.
...you really think it took them over a year to investigate what the rifts were really about? And that in that timeframe, the gods would not decide to simply inform them about it after realizing what they intended to do?


They, or rather their edges, are composed of reality. Matter. Anything that interacts with reality (such as Divination spells) can interact with them, and therefore information on what is behind them can be garnered that way.
Okay, you're going to have to clarify that, because I have no idea what you're trying to say there.

Zevox

[Herald Alberich]

...what? How the hell would that work? "Reality" is not a being, or some recording device - it's just what we call everything that exists.


In what? I've never heard of such an ability. And would consider it ridiculous, I might add. Inanimate objects have no mind. No intelligence. No ability to know, remember, or comprehend anything. Magic which changed that could not retroactively give it the ability to remember things from before it had a mind. It just does not make sense.


Then my problem there lies with the way that spell is written, as I do not believe magic should be able to pull knowledge that nobody and nothing possesses out of thin air.

In various fantasy settings, it's referred to as the Law of Contagion - everything leaves traces, and those traces can be read with the proper tools (divination spells, in this case). A "speak with inanimate objects" spell wouldn't grant retroactive intelligence - someone passing through or in proximity to a doorway would leave traces that you identify by "asking" the door whose they are. The "speaking" terminology is a convenient analogy.

If a tree falls in the forest with no one to hear it, it does indeed make a sound, and if you came across that tree later with the proper "ears", you could find out what it sounded like. The idea here is that even if no one has knowledge of an event, the event happened regardless, and arcane magic can read the aftereffects and interpret them for you.

The modern scientific equivalent is forensics.

[factotum]

In various fantasy settings, it's referred to as the Law of Contagion - everything leaves traces, and those traces can be read with the proper tools (divination spells, in this case).

Various fantasy settings maybe, but I'm pretty sure D&D isn't one of them--I don't recall any "Speak with Rocks" spell in the D&D spell list.

[Optimystik]

You're missing the point I was making by raising that whole part. I don't think the gods would never reveal anything about the Snarl even now - my original point was that they had to have told the Order of the Scribble about the matter, remember? I pointed out that strip because it shows that they did not ever reveal this information to anyone before the holes appeared in the Snarl's prison. And, in your argument, they would therefore not have revealed it to anyone at all. And therefore the Order of the Scribble could never have learned of it. That's why I think your argument is ridiculous.

Neither the gods' consent nor their cooperation is necessary for knowledge to exist and be discovered. Unless we can agree on that basic premise, there's no point in arguing further.

Before you disagree, however, the three spells I cited support my point of view, not yours.


...what? How the hell would that work? "Reality" is not a being, or some recording device - it's just what we call everything that exists.

In fantasy, the actions of powerful beings on our plane imprint themselves on reality whether they actively intend it or not. Flowers spring up where a nature goddess steps, the room darkens when a powerful demon enters it, gold gleams brighter near a wealth deity's avatar, etc. This is a common trope of D&D and many other settings.

These effects go beyond cosmetics too. A Marut tracks lawbreakers simply by following the emanations of their chaotic behavior. Heroes of Horror (and a bit of BoVD) talk at length about the corruptive influence that evil beings have on the environment, without ever meaning to. Various detection spells pick up emanations called "auras," which are nothing short of reality itself recording the nature of another being. Your statement is quite plainly false in fantasy.


In what? I've never heard of such an ability. And would consider it ridiculous, I might add. Inanimate objects have no mind. No intelligence. No ability to know, remember, or comprehend anything. Magic which changed that could not retroactively give it the ability to remember things from before it had a mind. It just does not make sense.

See above - powerful beings imprint themselves on reality unwittingly. It is not a "memory" that the mage is accessing in this case, but rather the imprint of anything notable that has interacted with the object in some way.


The Snarl is in another plane of existence. If some part of it were sticking out, perhaps it's presence could be detected - but again, I do not believe the spell would be able to provide information that "nature" cannot possibly possess, which any specifics about the Snarl, or especially it's history, would be.

The "other plane of existence" is contained within the material one. By your logic, we should have no way of knowing what's happening on either the Ethereal or Astral planes either, just because they are not material. The fact is that his plane touches ours, no matter how contained he/it may be.


Then my problem there lies with the way that spell is written, as I do not believe magic should be able to pull knowledge that nobody and nothing possesses out of thin air.

If you disagree with the RAW, that's unfortunately your problem. Feel free to houserule it out, but that's all it will be - a houserule.


...you really think it took them over a year to investigate what the rifts were really about? And that in that timeframe, the gods would not decide to simply inform them about it after realizing what they intended to do?

Why would they when they thought the best way to keep the Snarl safe was not to tell ANYONE? And why would they think this group of adventurers would succeed where gods themselves have failed?


Okay, you're going to have to clarify that, because I have no idea what you're trying to say there.

Zevox

My point is that, even if the Snarl's prison was so perfectly sealed off that it would be completely undetectable on our plane, the appearance of the rifts are holes in that seal. The Snarl's actions would thus be visible (as Soon saw with his own eyes) and divinations would begin to record them at that point if not before.

[Aldrakan]

The Snarl is in another plane of existence. If some part of it were sticking out, perhaps it's presence could be detected


Well imagine it like this. The commune with nature spell is going along, trees, some soil erosion by the road, burnt trees from orc camp, grass oh my god there's nothing there, there's a giant fricking hole in the middle of reality.

It's like if you had a machine set to take soil samples, and it ran over a pit. You'd notice.

I actually find it hard to name something more likely to be located by a commune with nature spell than an interdimensional rip, it's the ultimate departure from the natural order of the world.

[Zevox]

Neither the gods' consent nor their cooperation is necessary for knowledge to exist and be discovered. Unless we can agree on that basic premise, there's no point in arguing further.
Then there is no point in arguing further.


Before you disagree, however, the three spells I cited support my point of view, not yours.
Two do. I still maintain that Commune with Nature could not grant the kind of information that the Order of the Scribble acquired by the core rules.


In fantasy, the actions of powerful beings on our plane imprint themselves on reality whether they actively intend it or not. Flowers spring up where a nature goddess steps, the room darkens when a powerful demon enters it, gold gleams brighter near a wealth deity's avatar, etc. This is a common trope of D&D and many other settings.

These effects go beyond cosmetics too. A Marut tracks lawbreakers simply by following the emanations of their chaotic behavior. Heroes of Horror (and a bit of BoVD) talk at length about the corruptive influence that evil beings have on the environment, without ever meaning to. Various detection spells pick up emanations called "auras," which are nothing short of reality itself recording the nature of another being. Your statement is quite plainly false in fantasy.
All of that is very different from claiming that "reality" can somehow know about the Snarl. The effects of a god's presence might be evidence by which an astute observer could deduce they were once there, but they don't make "reality" itself into a sapient being capable of telling someone the history behind that visit.


See above - powerful beings imprint themselves on reality unwittingly. It is not a "memory" that the mage is accessing in this case, but rather the imprint of anything notable that has interacted with the object in some way.
This makes absolutely no sense in the context that you were using before. Minor traces that something was off, such as the aura of evil that a powerful outsider might leave, are one thing, but a "Speak with Inanimate Objects" ability makes no sense at all.


The "other plane of existence" is contained within the material one. By your logic, we should have no way of knowing what's happening on either the Ethereal or Astral planes either, just because they are not material. The fact is that his plane touches ours, no matter how contained he/it may be.
You're missing the point. Commune with Nature does what the name says - communes with nature. "Nature" in question being that of the Prime Material Plane. It cannot have any understanding of another plane of existence, because it is not a part of that plane. To take your own examples, Commune with Nature wouldn't grant any knowledge of what is going on in the Ethereal or Astral planes, now would it?


If you disagree with the RAW, that's unfortunately your problem. Feel free to houserule it out, but that's all it will be - a houserule.
Indeed.


Why would they when they thought the best way to keep the Snarl safe was not to tell ANYONE? And why would they think this group of adventurers would succeed where gods themselves have failed?
Lets see, their concern was that a mortal who might want to free the Snarl would learn about it. Now that the rifts have appeared, it could be freed simply by accident. Meanwhile, here are a group of mortals concerned about this, amongst whom are a powerful wizard and druid, attempting to close these rifts. And the best the gods themselves can come up with is "destroy the world and make a new one that is a more secure prison for the Snarl."

Seems like a no-brainer to me. Even if they didn't expect them to succeed, it ought to be worth a try at this point, considering the only alternative they've been able to come up with the ultimate worst-case scenario last-resort.


My point is that, even if the Snarl's prison was so perfectly sealed off that it would be completely undetectable on our plane, the appearance of the rifts are holes in that seal. The Snarl's actions would thus be visible (as Soon saw with his own eyes) and divinations would begin to record them at that point if not before.
And how, pray tell, would any of that tell them anything more about the Snarl than their own observations of it's actions when it killed Soon's wife and the like did?


Well imagine it like this. The commune with nature spell is going along, trees, some soil erosion by the road, burnt trees from orc camp, grass oh my god there's nothing there, there's a giant fricking hole in the middle of reality.

It's like if you had a machine set to take soil samples, and it ran over a pit. You'd notice.

I actually find it hard to name something more likely to be located by a commune with nature spell than an interdimensional rip, it's the ultimate departure from the natural order of the world.
And how, pray tell, does detecting it's presence do anyone any good? Their own eyes can tell them that much.

Zevox

[Optimystik]

Then there is no point in arguing further.

I'll leave it at that, but for these bits:


Two do. I still maintain that Commune with Nature could not grant the kind of information that the Order of the Scribble acquired by the core rules.

So is the Snarl not a powerful unnatural creature? I really don't understand your opposition to the rules here. :smallconfused:

Also,


And how, pray tell, does detecting it's presence do anyone any good? Their own eyes can tell them that much.

Zevox

You think their recon would be limited to mere observation, but all three spells do far more than that, by RAW. I'm afraid you don't have a leg to stand on.

Opti

[Herald Alberich]

Regardless of how much the three spells mentioned can do, Zevox, you seem to think "diligent study and magical inquiry" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html) means the Order of the Scribble just cast them and found out everything there is to know about the Snarl. I see that line more as hinting of a grand Sherlock Holmsian mystery quest that probably did take several years of adventuring, researching in the hidden depths of libraries, casting many divinations, researching new divinations, etc., gaining bits of the story over time and piecing them together, and even after all that they were still only able to "guess at [the rifts'] nature".

This does leave the problem of how Shojo was able to tell the whole story from beginning to end, including the Eastern gods and details like "27 minutes from reveal to destruction". I think all the ideas (arcane magic, extraplanar beings, and the gods themselves) probably come into it at some point, but perhaps the gods didn't share their information until the quest to seal the rifts was well underway. The point is to not discount the power of arcane investigation.

[factotum]

So is the Snarl not a powerful unnatural creature? I really don't understand your opposition to the rules here. :smallconfused:


I think his point is that the Snarl is on a different plane of existence and therefore not subject to Commune with Nature, in the same way that the Astral and Ethereal planes are not.

[Optimystik]

I think his point is that the Snarl is on a different plane of existence and therefore not subject to Commune with Nature, in the same way that the Astral and Ethereal planes are not.

Which would be fine, except there's a big gaping hole leading straight to its demiplane in the middle of the forest. The spell is designed to notice things like that.