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arkol
2009-08-10, 07:58 AM
The ranger.

A very flavourfull core class with iconic class features that can, for the most part, be easily grouped.

And for every type of class feature you have a ranger variant that either forgoes that feature, or focus on it.

My problem with this is that for the most part this is not customizable.

For an actual exemple: the mystic ranger. Sure you are more focused on spells but at the cost of a delayed combat style AND favored enemy. What if I wanna keep my favoured enemy as the base ranger and instead take a hit in the combat style? Or the other way around?


So my idea is something like this. The ranger class features can be divided into:

Animal Companion
Combat Stye
Favoured Enemy
Favoured Terrain (as per pathfinder)
Spells

First I want to have 2 versions for each, normal and improved.

Then I wanna assing them a value (for the sake of discussion let's use the word "points")

So a "normal" ranger would pretty much get all the class features at normal value. But you could instead not take one of the feature and you would get it's points to spend on improving the other features. The challenge is of course defining how much points each version is worth.

For animal companion the normal version would be as the normal ranger has. The improved ranger would be as druid.

For spells the normal version would be, again, as the normal ranger, and the improved version would be as the mystic ranger.

No idea how much any of this is worth... also no idea on how to make an improved version of favoured terrain and enemy or combat style.

For the favoured parts maybe just delayed and less often acess?

It would also be cool if somehow the other ranger versions could be included (say the shapeshifting version. In this case you'de have to burn a couple class features to get access to shapeshifting, but not necessarly combat style as the original version).

Cieyrin
2009-08-10, 02:42 PM
Changing the rate of acquisition of combat style, favored enemy and favored terrain would probably be the easiest solution. For those, I'd have 3 levels of power there, Superior, Normal and Inferior. Favored Enemy and Terrain is normally acquired every 5 levels or so, so Superior track would be every 4 or 3 levels and Inferior would be every 6. By doing so, you control how quickly bonuses accrue, so a Superior track would have 6 or 7, w/ high bonuses against several and the Inferior would have 3 w/ less significant bonuses.

Combat Style is a little more difficult, though not much so. You could just apply Pathfinder's Combat Style progression for a superior track, Normal as PHB 3.5 and Inferior by delaying gain of Normal track feats, probably to 5th, 10th and 15th.

Them's my 2 coppers. Take as you will.

Draz74
2009-08-10, 02:43 PM
Just switch to Generic Classes and make good Ranger-ability type feats. That's my 2 cents.

arkol
2009-08-10, 02:55 PM
Just switch to Generic Classes and make good Ranger-ability type feats. That's my 2 cents.

An interesting idea, but not wha I'm looking for.

Cieyrin combat style in pathfinder is pretty much the same as in 3.5, at least in what levels you gain them. The only difference is that you ca pick up other feats related to the style...

John Campbell
2009-08-10, 03:08 PM
The Champion of the Wild variant from Complete Champion provides improved combat style at the cost of spellcasting.

arkol
2009-08-10, 03:19 PM
Hmmm I had missed that... so basic reanger spellcasting is apparently worth 4 feats...

Eldariel
2009-08-10, 04:12 PM
Combat Style as written is somewhat problematic since it horribly shoehorns Rangers into either archers or TWFers (latter of which is completely nonsensical and horribly done).

Either options should exist for all the obvious combat styles (Two-Handers, Thrower and Sword & Board in addition to the listed), or combat style should simply become a bunch of Fighter bonus feats. As written, you can give this up and gain Wildshape (Wildshape Ranger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#ranger) in Unearthed Arcana), but Character Optimization consensus is that this is notably stronger than the standard Ranger.


Animal Companion as written is also problematic since the slow progression means it basically does nothing later on, but is very handy the level you get it. It should be worth one feat, about, since that's what you pay to buy an animal companion.


And if going high on Ranger, the spellcasting is worth way more than 4 feats; the alternative class feature mostly suits those characters who are only partially Rangers and multiclass out soon after level 4. At that point, casting isn't relevantly beneficial yet, but the feat becomes handy.

Later on though, most of Ranger's power actually comes from his casting, as do most of his options that make it an unique class (note that this is only with Spell Compendium - without it, Ranger casting isn't really worth even those 4 feats).


Can't say anything about Favored Terrain since I have never used it.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-08-10, 04:22 PM
Wildshape Ranger is only far more powerful when you combine it with MoMF and Warshaper. Shifting only into medium sized critters isn't too bad. It's when you combine it with MoMF and the ability to turn into anything you've got a book for that things get... crazy

arkol
2009-08-10, 04:24 PM
The thing about combat style... well yes, I'm improving the way TWF and archery works too, but that's another thing. However I don't think two-handed should be a ranger style. Firstly it's not very flavourfull (IMO at least) and secondly the idea is precisly to force characters into other options then the usual greatsword/guisarme/falchion etc...


Later on though, most of Ranger's power actually comes from his casting, as do most of his options that make it an unique class (note that this is only with Spell Compendium - without it, Ranger casting isn't really worth even those 4 feats).

It's not the first time I hear this.... any particular spells that make it so?

John Campbell
2009-08-10, 05:12 PM
I've got a mounted-archer ranger built for a campaign that we, with luck, will finally get around to starting soon. I took Champion of the Wild because, between poor Wisdom and extensive multiclassing (mostly to make my animal companion a viable mount), my Ranger spellcasting was going to come late and never amount to much anyway. If I'd been getting, say, arrow storm before 17th level, and without having to buff my Wis to be able to cast it at all, that would've been a harder choice.

My current character's primarily Rogue, but I dipped a couple levels in Urban Ranger for, mainly, the combat style and the BAB. Kept my spellcasting, though, even though I'll never go far enough with the class to be able to cast under my own power (and I'm currently CL -11 (yes, negative eleven), anyway, thanks to the Mage Slayer feat chain), because it gives me a spell list, which means I can use appropriate wands without wasting skill points on UMD. In particular, wands of cure light wounds... we don't have a cleric.