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View Full Version : [3.5] How Will The Mighty Be Felled?



zarakstan
2009-08-10, 08:48 AM
This is a challenge to see who can design a party of 4 all 1st level characters, 28 point buy, average starting wealth, and defeat a CR 6 monster (from core).

Rules:

As stated above, you must be 28 point buy
You must be all core except for one book
Your party will consist of 4, 1st level characters
You will have average starting wealth
You will be pitted against 3 randomly determined CR 6 monster from the MM1
No infinite loops, no diplomacy
Between each encounter you will heal up to full and any items used will be returned to you

Signup:

Signup here, when you do so link to all four of your character sheets. In due course we will then stage you in a PBP, predetermined, arena. There Djinn_In_Tonic will play the part of the monsters.

Signups:
Party 1.
Party 2.
Party 3.

Hall of Fame:

Defeated 1 monster:


Defeated 2 monsters:


Won:

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-08-10, 08:54 AM
If one of us chooses to be a Ranger, what do we do about Favored Enemy?

arkol
2009-08-10, 08:58 AM
Shouldn't this be in the finding players section?

That being said.... I'm in, no idea with what, but I'm in.

Also what happens if one of the 4 guys dies in one of the fights? Will he be ressurrected in the following match?

What about the last match? Can everyone but one guy die?

Can all characters be the same?

What about class features that have limited uses (spells and rage for exemple)? Replenished before each fight?

What about preparing spells? Do we prepare after or before knowing what we're fighting?

Djinn_in_Tonic
2009-08-10, 09:01 AM
I'll be polite. The Favored Enemy you select will always be treated as the type of the monster in question, or the monster of your choice if multiple monsters are present.

Also, I'll allow Core and any single other book. Obvious cheese like power word, pain, Pun-Pun, things relying on other planar entities, spells commonly considered to powerful, and the like. Characters should be made to be normal 1st level characters in a normal 1st level game: don't specifically optimize for more powerful encounters, as that defeats the purpose.

ZeroNumerous
2009-08-10, 09:02 AM
I may as well offer to help with a Crusader.

arkol
2009-08-10, 09:04 AM
I edited lots of questions in my first post which apparently got missed... ugh ONE other book makes this a nightmare of building.... ONEother book for each character or for everyone?

ZeroNumerous
2009-08-10, 09:06 AM
ONE other book for each character or for everyone?

I assume for each person.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2009-08-10, 09:07 AM
Also what happens if one of the 4 guys dies in one of the fights? Will he be ressurrected in the following match?

He's back in the next match. The goal is to win 1 fight against a number of CR 6 "BBEGs." Dying is fine.


What about the last match? Can everyone but one guy die?

See above.


Can all characters be the same?

Nope. This seems a little like pre-planning for the high encounter level to me.


What about class features that have limited uses (spells and rage for exemple)? Replenished before each fight?

Yes.


What about preparing spells? Do we prepare after or before knowing what we're fighting?

That's up to me. I'll tell you if you have foreknowledge of the next fight.

One extra book per person.

And yes, one other book does mess things up a bit. I'm allowing it, however, so that we can get some different base classes, not so you can cherry-pick the most powerful and unbalanced races, feats and spells. I'll know the difference, trust me.

Fitz
2009-08-10, 09:12 AM
is that 1 person doing a group of 4, of 4 doing 1 character each?
Fitz

arkol
2009-08-10, 09:15 AM
Each person does a 4-man party.

ZeroNumerous
2009-08-10, 09:17 AM
Each person does a 4-man party.

I'd like a shot with 4 people and 1 character each as well. A control test, if you will.

Tempest Fennac
2009-08-10, 09:27 AM
I'm considering entering (I'll probably use a Halfling Swordsage if I do). How many Flaws* are allowed and would it be okay if I posted my character's stats on here rather then making a sheet? (I find character sheets take longer to make then just making them with Notepad does).


*Weapon Finesse still has a +1 BAB Prequisite, right?

Fitz
2009-08-10, 09:28 AM
id be happier as 1 character in a party, but will see what is prefered.
Will work out a support cleric in case a multi player is on the cards.
Fitz

Djinn_in_Tonic
2009-08-10, 09:32 AM
I'd like a shot with 4 people and 1 character each as well. A control test, if you will.

I'd prefer this. It's more exemplary of an actual game, and thus a better example.


I'm considering entering (I'll probably use a Halfling Swordsage if I do). How many Flaws* are allowed and would it be okay if I posted my character's stats on here rather then making a sheet? (I find character sheets take longer to make then just making them with Notepad does).


*Weapon Finesse still has a +1 BAB Prequisite, right?

No flaws, and yes, WF does still have the +1 Prerequisite. Stats here is fine...it would actually be slightly easier for me.

arkol
2009-08-10, 09:38 AM
What if we choose unerthed arcana has our outside source? Could we choose flaws then?

Fitz Zero and Fennec, you guys up for a party of 4?

Eldariel
2009-08-10, 09:40 AM
Sign me up for Druid/Druid/Wizard/Wizard party. I assume Familiar needs to be purchased?

Tempest Fennac
2009-08-10, 09:41 AM
I'm fine for being in a party of 4. I just need to work out how to build my character. (I was going to take Shadow Blade with a Flaw and Weapon Finesse so I'd only need Dex for melee attacks.)

Djinn_in_Tonic
2009-08-10, 09:42 AM
What if we choose unerthed arcana has our outside source? Could we choose flaws then?

Fitz Zero and Fennec, you guys up for a party of 4?

No. Unearthed Arcana is not acceptable, as that's simply full of house rules.

Things I will allow from outside sources (any WotC printed, non-Dragon Magazine 3.5 source):

-A single LA +0 race (non-Illumian)
-No more than a single feat
-No more than 2 spells
-A base class and the associated rules (including relevant feats/spells/abilities)
-1 Racial Variant level

arkol
2009-08-10, 09:45 AM
Swarm them with summns Eldariel?

If the other 2 guys are in, I'm also in with some sort of archer.

Keep away and keep pestering them with arrows I always say....

Either human ranger or something with dex bonus fighter.... sugestions welcomed....

Human Paragon 3
2009-08-10, 09:46 AM
Do you count the whole SRD as core? It includes unearthed arcana and expanded psionics handbook.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2009-08-10, 09:47 AM
Do you count the whole SRD as core? It includes unearthed arcana and expanded psionics handbook.

We've established no Unearthed Arcana. Psionics I will allow as part of Core.

Tempest Fennac
2009-08-10, 09:47 AM
Arcane Swordsages count as being too cheesy for this, right?

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-08-10, 09:50 AM
Druids are the answer (http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=26623)

ZeroNumerous
2009-08-10, 09:50 AM
Fitz Zero and Fennec, you guys up for a party of 4?

Sure. I'm thinking an Orc Crusader who deals lots of damage and looks impressive but has no actual substance. All rage and fury signifying nothing, if you will.

Basically: I intend to be the guy who dies first.


Druids are the answer (http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=26623)

How'd you get augment summoning?

Eldariel
2009-08-10, 09:51 AM
arkol: My idea was to make them fail one save and yeah.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2009-08-10, 09:51 AM
Arcane Swordsages count as being too cheesy for this, right?

Yes. No variant rules, por favor.

arkol
2009-08-10, 09:53 AM
http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=145710

my archer is ready. C'mon guys, let's beat the crap out of that 5headed-pyro-hydra, Annis Hag, Girallon, Shambling Mound, Advanced Megarator Skeleton, Xill or average Xorn. :smallbiggrin:

Djinn_in_Tonic
2009-08-10, 09:57 AM
How'd you get augment summoning?

Good question. How did you get augment summoning?

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-08-10, 10:00 AM
My mistake, forgot to compensate for a change in races. (Was originally human)

AstralFire
2009-08-10, 10:01 AM
If there is space in the party of 4 control group, I would perhaps like in.

Psion or Wilder, Elan or Human. Unsure yet.

arkol
2009-08-10, 10:02 AM
I say the first 4 with a sheet get in!

If we all die we can alway try again right Djinn?

Fitz
2009-08-10, 10:04 AM
count me in, char sheet will be done when i get home from work.
Is spell compendium ok for non core?
Can someone confirm gold for a cleric?
Fitz

ZeroNumerous
2009-08-10, 10:04 AM
I find it easier to just notepad stuff.

Grog
Orc Crusader 1

Stats (http://invisiblecastle.com/stats/view/21829/)
STR: 18
DEX: 14
CON: 18
INT: 6
WIS: 6
CHA: 6

Gear(150/150GP): Scale Mail, Heavy Steel Shield, Longsword, Trident, Warhammer, misc adventuring gear, 2 vials of acid, 8 sunrods.

Move: 20ft; Saves: +6; +2; -2; AC: 18

Longsword: +5 to hit, 1d8+4 damage
Trident(Thrown): +5(5) to hit, 1d8+4(1d8+4) damage
Warhammer: +5 to hit, 1d10+4 damage

Furious Counterstrike; Steely Resolve.

HP: 14

Feat: Extra Granted Maneuver; Skills: +6 Balance, +8 Jump

Maneuvers Known: Stone Bones; Leading the Attack; Crusader's Strike; Vanguard's Strike; Charging Minotaur
Readied: All of the Above
Granted: 3
Stance: Iron Guard's Glare

Djinn_in_Tonic
2009-08-10, 10:07 AM
I say the first 4 with a sheet get in!

If we all die we can alway try again right Djinn?

On a new challenge, yes. A loss is a loss. Although a different group could give it a run.

So far we've got the first group looking like this:

Druid - Pharoah's Fist
Archer - Arkol
Crusader - ZeroNumerous
Swordsage - Tempest Fennac

Tempest Fennac
2009-08-10, 10:07 AM
Here's my character. If anything needs clarifying, please could you tell me?:

Halfling Swordsage 1. LG alignment.
Str 10, Dex 18, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 8.
HP: 10. AC: 18. T: 15. FF: 14.
Fort: +3. Ref: +7. Will: +5.
Melee: +1(+2). Range: +5.
Skills: Max Hide, Move Silently, Jump, Tumble, Listen, Concentration.
(-1 Armour Check penalty.)
Feat: Shadow Blade (Dex-to melee damage with certain weapons).


Maneuvers: Saphire Nightmare Blade (R), Counter Charge (R), Shadow Blade Technique (R),
Clinging Shadow Strike (R), Perfect Mind Moment, Sudden Leap.

Stance: Child of Shadow.

Class Features: (Quick to Act), Disciplin Focus (Shadowhand).

Equipment: Shortsword, Light Crossbow, 10 bolts, Dagger, Studded Leather. 28 GPs.

Apperance: short brown hair, grey eyes, 3'3", 33 Lbs, wears green trousers with no footwear.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2009-08-10, 10:08 AM
4 sheets in:

Druid
Swordsage
Crusader
Archer

You game to go, or would you like more options for making groups first?

ZeroNumerous
2009-08-10, 10:10 AM
You game to go, or would you like more options for making groups first?

I'm good. A different group doesn't terribly change my purpose. (That being to die).

Tempest Fennac
2009-08-10, 10:10 AM
I'm ready once I've added Weapon Focus (Shadow Hand) and my Initiative bonus to my sheet.

AstralFire
2009-08-10, 10:12 AM
Ah well. Nova the Psion will have to wait another day, then. :smallwink: Not interested in building a group of four.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2009-08-10, 10:14 AM
Ah well. Nova the Psion will have to wait another day, then. :smallwink: Not interested in building a group of four.

Feel free to make it. I have no problems with swapping people around mid-round.

ZeroNumerous
2009-08-10, 10:14 AM
Ah well. Nova the Psion will have to wait another day, then. :smallwink: Not interested in building a group of four.

I'd make a warmage to go with your psion, if I could.

arkol
2009-08-10, 10:17 AM
I just have to get a bow and an armor and I'm set.

(took me a while to find ou the starting gold...)

Fitz
2009-08-10, 10:19 AM
reserve team?
Sure we can get a couple more?
Fitz

Flickerdart
2009-08-10, 10:21 AM
Wouldn't 4 Human Druids with Augment Summoning pretty much win this? Alternately, Natural Bond and Fleshrakers, but I'm not sure if you can take Natural Bond at 1st.

Tempest Fennac
2009-08-10, 10:22 AM
I don't like humans or Core Druids, so they aren't an option for me, Flicker. :smalltongue:

Djinn_in_Tonic
2009-08-10, 10:22 AM
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6691527#post6691527

It begins.

ZeroNumerous
2009-08-10, 11:00 AM
Based solely on what Djinn picked as our CR 6, I'm fairly certain we're dead. Like, 99.5%.

arkol
2009-08-10, 11:02 AM
I don' see why. I can move 30. It can only move 20. I can shoot it fro mafar. It can't.

I could solo this encounter. In fact you guys just cramp my style. :smalltongue:

zarakstan
2009-08-10, 11:09 AM
Based solely on what Djinn picked as our CR 6, I'm fairly certain we're dead. Like, 99.5%.

Yeah you guys are dead :smalltongue: when I looked at the dude's stat block I started laughing hysterically!:smallamused:

Milskidasith
2009-08-10, 11:09 AM
Pharaoh rolled a 1d10 for his knowledge check... but he might pass anyway. >_>

arkol
2009-08-10, 11:13 AM
ZeroNumerous & zarakstan I don't know exactly what... but it seems that having screen names staring with Z makes you miss the speed of stuff... :smallwink:

AstralFire
2009-08-10, 11:14 AM
I don' see why. I can move 30. It can only move 20. I can shoot it fro mafar. It can't.

I could solo this encounter. In fact you guys just cramp my style. :smalltongue:

It's called 'charging' or 'running'.

arkol
2009-08-10, 11:16 AM
Charging in a swamp? I don't think so. Unless it can charge usng two modes of movement, which I think it can't. Sure it can run towards me. And I can withdraw away. No one attacks.

ZeroNumerous
2009-08-10, 11:17 AM
It's called 'charging' or 'running'.

Yes. And yes, it can charge in a swamp as the swamp was not described as difficult terrain.

arkol
2009-08-10, 11:19 AM
Ok. It can charge 40ft. I'm already at least 70ft away from it. We'll see.

zarakstan
2009-08-10, 11:19 AM
Yeah I just looked at his stat-block again, he has the power to 1 round your entire party :smalltongue:

ZeroNumerous
2009-08-10, 11:22 AM
Ok. It can charge 40ft. I'm already at least 70ft away from it. We'll see.

Thing is: Even with your dinky d8+2 damage, you still cannot kill it. Not without a full attack in which you Rapid Shot.


Yeah I just looked at his stat-block again, he has the power to 1 round your entire party :smalltongue:

Actually, no. He has to spend at -least- one round killing me due to Stone Bones. That should be enough time for the cowards to run in terror(read, everyone who isn't me). By surviving and escaping, we defeat the encounter.

zarakstan
2009-08-10, 11:24 AM
Thing is: Even with your dinky d8+2 damage, you still cannot kill it. Not without a full attack in which you Rapid Shot.



Actually, no. He has to spend at -least- one round killing me due to Stone Bones. That should be enough time for the cowards to run in terror(read, everyone who isn't me). By surviving and escaping, we defeat the encounter.

I looked at his stat-block and it seemed to me even with stone bones he can one round you :smallconfused:

arkol
2009-08-10, 11:25 AM
Thing is: Even with your dinky d8+2 damage, you still cannot kill it. Not without a full attack in which you Rapid Shot.

Why not? What am I missing?


EDIT: and where the hell is Djinn? Left already? When things were getting fun? BAH!

also, pharaoh, re-roll your knowledge check. You used a d10.

ZeroNumerous
2009-08-10, 11:25 AM
Why not? What am I missing?

For the sake of metagaming, I'll just say it's not killable by archers.

zarakstan
2009-08-10, 11:26 AM
For the sake of metagaming, I'll just say it's not killable by archers.

Lol yes d8+2 that is priceless :smallbiggrin:

ZeroNumerous
2009-08-10, 11:28 AM
I looked at his stat-block and it seemed to me even with stone bones he can one round you :smallconfused:

Yes, but that's his one round. The rest of the party survived two rounds, that's more than the one round you said it'd take for him to kill us all.

And actually, the odds are in my favor that I survive longer than one round due to his poor attack bonus on his secondary attacks.

zarakstan
2009-08-10, 11:30 AM
Yes, but that's his one round. The rest of the party survived two rounds, that's more than the one round you said it'd take for him to kill us all.

And actually, the odds are in my favor that I survive longer than one round due to his poor attack bonus on his secondary attacks.

Point taken :smallsmile: but with his primary attack he could neutralize you and move on to the rest of the party with his secondary attacks, so 1-2 rounds :smalltongue:

Glimbur
2009-08-10, 12:05 PM
An Incarnate could do pretty well here... use Dissolving Spittle to damage at a range and Soulspark Familiar to slow them down. Take a feat for one more essentia and Shape Soulmeld: Rageclaws so you can fight until -13 hp.

By which I mean I'm building one.

zarakstan
2009-08-10, 12:10 PM
An Incarnate could do pretty well here... use Dissolving Spittle to damage at a range and Soulspark Familiar to slow them down. Take a feat for one more essentia and Shape Soulmeld: Rageclaws so you can fight until -13 hp.

By which I mean I'm building one.

Yeah an Incarnate seems like a good idea :smallsmile:

zarakstan
2009-08-10, 12:16 PM
If Djinni Doesn't come back soon I think I'll finish up DMing this round . . .

Doc Roc
2009-08-10, 12:20 PM
...Why is this practically core only? This is very weird.

Glimbur
2009-08-10, 12:25 PM
I have finished the Incarnate. (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=145743)

Decided on another d6 of damage a round instead of functioning until -13. Warlocks eat your hearts out.

Edit: I need to remember my racial bonuses better. I get a bonus essentia so I don't have to take a feat for another essentia so I can take Rage Claws. I'm up until I'm dead.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-08-10, 12:30 PM
If we're allowing non core now, all we need is a Warlock with Summon Swarm or Eldritch Spear.

ZeroNumerous
2009-08-10, 12:34 PM
Decided on another d6 of damage a round instead of functioning until -13. Warlocks eat your hearts out.

Uh, you know that you can only have 1 essentia invested into something, right? At least, until CL 6.


If we're allowing non core now, all we need is a Warlock with Summon Swarm or Eldritch Spear.

Non-core was always allowed. I'm playing a Crusader. We get core plus 1 book of our choice.

Flickerdart
2009-08-10, 12:39 PM
...Why is this practically core only? This is very weird.
To mimic original WotC playtesting conditions I guess.

Glimbur
2009-08-10, 12:43 PM
Uh, you know that you can only have 1 essentia invested into something, right? At least, until CL 6.


Expanded Soulmeld Capacity. It's one of the best feats for meldshapers.

ZeroNumerous
2009-08-10, 12:46 PM
Expanded Soulmeld Capacity. It's one of the best feats for meldshapers.

Oops, missed that one.

HamsterOfTheGod
2009-08-10, 12:58 PM
Doesn't this call for some caster/psion trick like 4 level 1 sorcerers with versatile spell caster, arcane thesis (lesser or of fire), fell drain and sudden maximize?

zarakstan
2009-08-10, 01:01 PM
Doesn't this call for some caster/psion trick like 4 level 1 sorcerers with versatile spell caster, arcane thesis (lesser or of fire), fell drain and sudden maximize?

I should probably make it more clear, but it is preferred if it is a typical party that has not been optimized for this encounter.

hustlertwo
2009-08-10, 01:05 PM
Well, that seems like you're setting the people up to fail. A typical level 1 character would not be optimized to fight single enemies of great strength, and thus would almost certainly suck hard and die.

ZeroNumerous
2009-08-10, 01:07 PM
Doesn't this call for some caster/psion trick like 4 level 1 sorcerers with versatile spell caster, arcane thesis (lesser or of fire), fell drain and sudden maximize?

Warmages could do it with Precocious Apprentice(Scorching Ray), A metamagic feat and Sudden Maximize. But that requires flaws.

Myshlaevsky
2009-08-10, 01:12 PM
Well, that seems like you're setting the people up to fail. A typical level 1 character would not be optimized to fight single enemies of great strength, and thus would almost certainly suck hard and die.

The contest is arising form a debate on the effectiveness of characters at lower levels to overcome significant enemies and challenges as contrasted with higher ones.

It seems academic to me but there you go.

HamsterOfTheGod
2009-08-10, 01:13 PM
I should probably make it more clear, but it is preferred if it is a typical party that has not been optimized for this encounter.


Warmages could do it with Precocious Apprentice(Scorching Ray), A metamagic feat and Sudden Maximize. But that requires flaws.

Got it. Nevermind then.

ZeroNumerous
2009-08-10, 01:13 PM
It seems academic to me but there you go.

Of course it's academic. Level 1 sucks. :smalltongue:

Fitz
2009-08-10, 01:56 PM
should a second party get to try out this

Tal the cleric support caster

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=145773

Fitz

zarakstan
2009-08-10, 02:04 PM
should a second party get to try out this

Tal the cleric support caster

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=145773

Fitz

Sure, the more parties the merrier :smallsmile:

hustlertwo
2009-08-10, 02:44 PM
The contest is arising form a debate on the effectiveness of characters at lower levels to overcome significant enemies and challenges as contrasted with higher ones.

It seems academic to me but there you go.

That all these limitations have to be put in place for the monster to have a chance seems like it answers the question regardless of the outcome.

Myshlaevsky
2009-08-10, 02:47 PM
That all these limitations have to be put in place for the monster to have a chance seems like it answers the question regardless of the outcome.

Generally people will not play first level character optimised to the extent characters built for this contest would otherwise have been. Nor characters so limited to first level glory, or a single trick.

Olo Demonsbane
2009-08-10, 08:10 PM
Im making a party...

Crusader
Incarnate
Ranger
Duskblade

I think...I'll give more when I have them.

PinkysBrain
2009-08-10, 08:26 PM
Pre-buffing? Action points if ECS is chosen?

Olo Demonsbane
2009-08-10, 09:02 PM
What about one use/limited use items? Do they get renewed each battle?

Olo Demonsbane
2009-08-10, 10:11 PM
Party Finished:

Jon Snow (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=145871): Human Duskblade 1
Tyrion Lannister (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=145870): Azurin Incarnate 1
Dany (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=145901): Human Conjurer 1
Eddard Stark (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=145868): Human Crusader 1

So, when does the fun start?

Doc Roc
2009-08-10, 10:27 PM
I should probably make it more clear, but it is preferred if it is a typical party that has not been optimized for this encounter.

So... you want us to build non-optimized parties and feed them to your meat grinder?


Why?

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-08-10, 10:27 PM
Oi, where's our DM?

Olo Demonsbane
2009-08-10, 10:30 PM
So... you want us to build non-optimized parties and feed them to your meat grinder?


Why?

My first level wizard can cast Web and Glitterdust :smallbiggrin:

They want your typical optimization, not planning specifically to beat CR 6 things.

AstralFire
2009-08-10, 10:37 PM
So... you want us to build non-optimized parties and feed them to your meat grinder?


Why?

The thread sprung out of an interest to see if an adventuring party filled with level 1s who have a basic knowledge of the game and interest in optimization - but unaware or unmotivated for most of the best tricks - can beat a radically high CR. It's less of a challenge and more of an academic interest.

hustlertwo
2009-08-10, 10:43 PM
The problem being that it's presented to would-be players like a challenge, given the little Hall of Fame on the first post and all that. Something like that implies competition. And why would you deliberately make a character for a competition that is designed for combat situations you won't be facing? Especially if someone else decides to ignore that request and cooks up a lone monster-killing machine character instead.

Frosty
2009-08-10, 10:45 PM
The thread sprung out of an interest to see if an adventuring party filled with level 1s who have a basic knowledge of the game and interest in optimization - but unaware or unmotivated for most of the best tricks - can beat a radically high CR. It's less of a challenge and more of an academic interest.

Yeah. At this point it should take the form of a discussion and not with dice rolling. That kind of restrictions is just dumb.

fetfet
2009-08-10, 10:45 PM
I'm in for a fighter.

AstralFire
2009-08-10, 10:53 PM
Yeah. At this point it should take the form of a discussion and not with dice rolling. That kind of restrictions is just dumb.

...Well, personally, I'm interested in watching it. :smalltongue:

Eldariel
2009-08-11, 08:17 AM
This kind of bothers me, because level 1 optimized characters pretty much have to be built totally differently than anything you plan on playing for the whole game/anything you optimize for any real level. Also, level 1 is so much about the luck of the rolls.

On level 1, you may pick up Weapon Focus over Power Attack simply because Power Attack does nothing until you pick up some BAB and magical bonuses to your attacks.

On level 1, Precocious Apprentice is an awesome feat which becomes practically useless on level 3.

On level 1, friggin' Toughness is a defensible pick...for 3 levels or so, after which you won't even know the difference of having it.


On level 1, you pretty much have to optimize your character around one trick and focus on that to be any good at anything. Few levels in, a general character can shine, but on level 1, everything just gets thrown upside down.

This makes these limitations really unnatural for character building, as the "characters that are strong on level 1" aren't really ones you'd play in a campaign or indeed, few levels after level 1, and if this is meant to test what real characters can do...well, yeah.

Real characters don't exist on level 1; either you're a focused guy who does something alright or you're a chump.

AstralFire
2009-08-11, 08:32 AM
I've seen more than a few people who run games at level 1, and players who moderately optimize to start at level 1. I don't particularly enjoy starting before about level 3 for various reasons, but as the thread is partially about reverse-engineering what the game designers were thinking, I think it's got some academic interest.

I am curious where our hosts are, though.

ZeroNumerous
2009-08-11, 09:33 AM
I am curious where our hosts are, though.

That is a good question. I'm particularly interested in how far a party not operating under one mind can go against insurmountable odds.

It'd help to read the thread that spawned this one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=121056).

The original comparison was 1st level vs CR 6 compared to 10th level vs CR 16.

I personally favor 5th level vs CR 11 against 15th level vs CR 21.

zarakstan
2009-08-11, 09:37 AM
I am curious where our hosts are, though.

I have returned to the thread! But I wonder where Djinni is I think I will finish up the first combat if Djinni doesn't come back by lunch :smallconfused:

Eldariel
2009-08-11, 10:02 AM
That is a good question. I'm particularly interested in how far a party not operating under one mind can go against insurmountable odds.

It'd help to read the thread that spawned this one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=121056).

The original comparison was 1st level vs CR 6 compared to 10th level vs CR 16.

I personally favor 5th level vs CR 11 against 15th level vs CR 21.

I personally favor level 3 vs. CR 8 or level 6 vs. CR 12. Or level 14 vs CR 20 or level 21 vs CR 27. 'cause on higher levels, the characters have options. On level 1, there's only so many ways to go about tackling a problem; once creatures move outside the Color Spray/Sleep HD range, no character can really efficiently disable them and it's pretty much impossible to reach AC range where you'd actually be able to dodge hits so the only real way to dodge hits is the terrain.

Bleh, it's not undoable, but the party needs to be built for it rather than for a standard adventure and it needs to be prepared. Around level 3, you start getting tools that are useful regardless of the opponent's HD which greatly helps with this type of encounters. And around level 3, people start to have enough feats to do something with them. And people can afford Composite Longbows (this is so huge it's not even funny).

ZeroNumerous
2009-08-11, 10:04 AM
Bleh, it's not undoable, but the party needs to be built for it rather than for a standard adventure and it needs to be prepared.

Exactly. It's just pointless without added abilities or cheese that make up for the weakness inherent in 1st level PCs.

Eldariel
2009-08-11, 11:02 AM
Now that I think about it, a party of two level 1 Human Barbarians and two level 1 Gray Elf Conjurers could do quite well. Barbarians pick Combat Expertise > Improved Trip and Gray Elves pick...well, whatever.

I suppose they could pick Precocious Apprentice, but that's just for level 1 and not a long-standing solution. Probably just Spell Focus: Conjuration (or Illusion) or Improved Initiative. Then the Gray Elves max Int and go 16 Dex - 12 Con, while the Barbarians max Str and get 13 Int and Dex and Con as they can.


The Wizards Enlarge the Barbarians in the start of a fight and use Ray of Enfeeblement, hoping to roll well (average 4.5 lost Str is nice). Then the Now Large 24 Str (or 22 if only affording the 16 there) Raging Barbarians use their Guisarmes (carrying a golfbag of them) and 20' reach to trip whatever is faced and pound down with AoOs and additional trips, while Wizard aids the "keep 'em down"-strategy with Grease & Color Spray as it best goes.

This is notable because it doesn't require any kind of special planning or such, just a specific party that is quite servicable after level 1 too (of course, on level 1 the lack of healing can be quite the issue, but meh, you could replace one of the Wizards with a Cleric of Str-domain, though that'd weaken the package overall).


Of course, this doesn't work vs. all the CR 6 monsters in the books, but it's not bad (note that all CR 6 flyers have wings and can thus be tripped; they don't seem to have ranged attacks forcing them to come in reach). The Trip-checks are at +14-15 (+6-7 Str, +4 Size, +4 Improved Trip) and coupled with the Ray of Enfeeblement, even a 7-Headed Hydra (+2 average Str after the Ray, +8 size, +4 quadroped = +14) is a dog to it and with a 20' reach, that means AoOs.

All these abilities last for around a minute too (Rage depends on the Con, obviously; spells have a Duration of minute), meaning it's actually doable to kill such a guy in 10 rounds with the damage output of 2d4+10; average 15 per hit for the Barbarians (and attacking at +7, +4 for prone, +1 for higher ground and possible +2 for flank, their chances of hitting are fairly good).

Now, out of the CR 6 monsters, problematics would be:
Dragons (obviously; strafe runners suck when you lack ranged weaponry)
Babau Demon ('cause of the insane Damage Reduction, Greater Teleport at will and the corrosion of weapons; Bless Weapon would make this a wash)
Pyro/Cryohydras (it IS possible to get the jump on them as their range is 20' for the breaths, same as the Barbarian's attack range and they only have 5 heads, but still...)
Will-O'-Wisp (c'mon)


By my counting, the others can be slain or at least be forced to escape. Not of course 100% reliably, but the fights should be even in the party's favor mostly. And out of the above, Pyro/Cryohydras and Babau Demons aren't autolosses.

Only Dragons and the fcking Will-O'-Wisp truly seem basically unbeatable (that's assuming they're played smart of course; if a Dragon comes within 25' of the party and the readied Enlarge + readied Trip goes off, it's very likely dead).

PinkysBrain
2009-08-11, 12:23 PM
Personally the only non-core thing I think is indispensable is the benign transposition spell, it gives you a bit more chance of surviving a disastrous start to an encounter before you even have time to act ... a chance which is quite high.

ZeroNumerous
2009-08-11, 12:34 PM
Tripping

All of this assumes the monster doesn't just eat the -4 and attack and kill the Barbarian from prone. Which many of the monsters can do so.

Eldariel
2009-08-11, 12:35 PM
All of this assumes the monster doesn't just eat the -4 and attack and kill the Barbarian from prone. Which many of the monsters can do so.

No. The largest reach any monster on this level has is 15'. Barbarian Reach is 20' (Enlarge Person makes them large bipeds and reach weapon has range twice their natural reach = 10'*2 = 20'). They'll never be able to reach the Barbarian. That's the whole point; the bonuses are just nice extra. The only way to move while prone is crawling, which moves you 5' as a full-round action.

Also, the Barbarians have ~16 HP so they can take one hit (which is all the monsters get after movement). They also have 24 skill points to spend around so they can have Tumble cross-class for a semi-decent chance to get out of the threatened area without AoOs.

Fitz
2009-08-11, 01:42 PM
ok looks like the first party has ground to a halt.

i have a couple of gaps in my schedule: am prepared to run a party of 4 for 2 sessions from 19.30 gmt tomorrow and thursday for about 3 hours a shot, if anyone is interested, please pm me?

i'll run a party of 4 vs 1 CR 5 encounter. same design rules as above (though please make sure i know any TOB or Incarnum rules as i don't have those books)

Fitz

Doc Roc
2009-08-11, 02:30 PM
Eld, if you are using PreAp anyway as an early entry hack, it's a pretty solid L1 pick. Particularly if you are using the Jacob's Ladder trick to get into something like swiftblade. :: shrugs :: So the source restriction is core + one additional? Are we allowed magic item compendium and spell compendium? Or do we have to spend our source on those?

ZeroNumerous
2009-08-11, 02:34 PM
No. The largest reach any monster on this level has is 15'.

So monsters can't take five foot steps now?


Also, the Barbarians have ~16 HP so they can take one hit (which is all the monsters get after movement).

Lets pick a random CR 6. I pick.. An Ettin.

Ettin does 2d6+6 twice or 4d6+12 or an average of 26 as it's full attack. At a +8 to hit after the -4 for prone. I'll grant you that he might survive, but it's not likely nor can it be counted on.


So the source restriction is core + one additional? Are we allowed magic item compendium and spell compendium? Or do we have to spend our source on those?

I surmise that, if you're allowed only Core and One Additional Source, that source would have to be MIC or SpC to be able to use them. But that's just me, so I could be wrong.

Eldariel
2009-08-11, 02:35 PM
Eld, if you are using PreAp anyway as an early entry hack, it's a pretty solid L1 pick. Particularly if you are using the Jacob's Ladder trick to get into something like swiftblade.

Oh, certainly. I wasn't saying that it doesn't have a reason to exist, just that your average level 5 Wizard going Fatespinner/Loremaster/IotSV/Incantatrix/whatever isn't going to want to spend his first feat on Precocious Apprentice.

That is, a normal Wizard really has little interest in the feat beyond the first ~3 levels; getting an extra highest level slot is still alright but once you go higher, the 2nd level slot really loses meaning. It certainly functions for some qualifications and tricks, but that was hardly my point.

Doc Roc
2009-08-11, 02:36 PM
I think for tanking, our best option may actually be Elans+large power point reserves. Opinions?

If you are playing through from level one, PreAp has a serious effect on character viability out to L4\5 in my experience, particularly when linked with versatile spell caster. It's particularly good for sorcerers, however, and can really tip their viability towards Yes early in life.

ZeroNumerous
2009-08-11, 02:37 PM
I think for tanking, our best option may actually be Elans+large power point reserves. Opinions?

I imagine tanking would be a little counterintuitive. Why tank when you can just kill it before it kills you? Incarnum/Overchanneling Psions would be effective in that circumstance, though the second would probably die to the next encounter.

Doc Roc
2009-08-11, 02:38 PM
So we get nothing back _but_ items expended? How are we supposed to survive multiple EL+5 encounters without resting!? That's...........

AstralFire
2009-08-11, 02:40 PM
So we get nothing back _but_ items expended? How are we supposed to survive multiple EL+5 encounters without resting!? That's...........

I think people get autorevived between encounters, so I'm not sure about that.

ZeroNumerous
2009-08-11, 02:42 PM
I think people get autorevived between encounters, so I'm not sure about that.

Well the rules only specific expended items and fully healed.. I guess that would stretch to reviving too.

Eldariel
2009-08-11, 02:42 PM
So monsters can't take five foot steps now?

Only Monstrous Centipede has a 15' reach IIRC anyways (I'm not counting Baleen Whale as it's an aquatic monster). And no, prone opponents cannot take 5' steps. You may only take a 5' step when your movement isn't hampered. That's part of the reason of why tripping is so efficient. Sorry about my mix-up earlier (stating crawling is a full-round), crawling 5' is a move action. That's still only one attack with two AoOs (from both Barbarians) at -4 though (they both take their 5' steps on their own turns).


Lets pick a random CR 6. I pick.. An Ettin.

Ettin does 2d6+6 twice or 4d6+12 or an average of 26 as it's full attack. At a +8 to hit after the -4 for prone. I'll grant you that he might survive, but it's not likely nor can it be counted on.

2d6+6 averages at 13. It is unlikely that it is able to one-shot a Barbarian. Due to the Barbarians' superior reach and the likelihood of getting tripped, it's denied its full attack and indeed, can't get an attack off at all if either of the trips or AoO trip attempts are successful.

AstralFire
2009-08-11, 02:43 PM
Well the rules only specific expended items and fully healed.. I guess that would stretch to reviving too.

I think Djinn specifically commented that deaths wouldn't be held against you, so I'm pretty sure it's a full recovery.

ZeroNumerous
2009-08-11, 02:44 PM
Only Monstrous Centipede has a 15' reach IIRC anyways (I'm not counting Baleen Whale as it's an aquatic monster).

The monster we're fighting at the moment is Huge too.


... can't get an attack off at all if either of the trips or AoO trip attempts are successful.

You can't trip prone targets.

EDIT: Also.


You can only take a 5-foot step if your movement isn’t hampered by difficult terrain or darkness. Any creature with a speed of 5 feet or less can’t take a 5-foot step, since moving even 5 feet requires a move action for such a slow creature.

Nothing precludes a five-foot step while prone.

PinkysBrain
2009-08-11, 02:47 PM
BTW, for the "vast" amount of money a 1st level character has he can afford to travel with a small army of mercenaries for quite some time.

Doc Roc
2009-08-11, 02:47 PM
The monster we're fighting at the moment is Huge too.

Nothing precludes a five-foot step while prone.

Except sanity.

ZeroNumerous
2009-08-11, 02:48 PM
Except sanity.

Sanity is for the weak.


BTW, for the "vast" amount of money a 1st level character has he can afford to travel with a small army of mercenaries for quite some time.

And wizards can buy Magebred dogs to attack with. I don't think that's the point of the thread though.

Eldariel
2009-08-11, 02:49 PM
The monster we're fighting at the moment is Huge too.

Only Huge bipeds have 15' reach. Huge long creatures have 10' reach. Gargantuan long creatures (such as Monstrous Centipede) have 15', but that's only one.


You can't trip prone targets.

Obviously. The point was getting them prone; if all the other Trip-checks fail, you try to Trip with AoOs (using your move action to draw a new weapon; given that you have no iteratives, full attacks are of no use to you and Guisarmes are cheap).


Nothing precludes a five-foot step while prone.

Any creature with a speed of 5 feet or less can’t take a 5-foot step, since moving even 5 feet requires a move action for such a slow creature.

Crawl (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#move): You can crawl 5 feet as a move action. Crawling incurs attacks of opportunity from any attackers who threaten you at any point of your crawl.

Your speed is effectively 5' (you move 5' as a move action) and thus you can't take 5' steps.

ZeroNumerous
2009-08-11, 02:53 PM
Only Huge bipeds have 15' reach. Huge long creatures have 10' reach. Gargantuan long creatures (such as Monstrous Centipede) have 15', but that's only one.

It's a huge.. Well, it's not a biped. But it's not long either. It also says Space/Reach: 15ft/15ft. So I'm 100% certain it has 15ft of reach.


Your speed is effectively 5' (you move 5' as a move action) and thus you can't take 5' steps.

RAW, that doesn't work because Prone doesn't change your speed. Your speed is still whatever it was before you got tripped, therefore you can still take five foot steps.

PinkysBrain
2009-08-11, 02:55 PM
By this point most of us know what it is, do we really need to be coy about it?

Doc Roc
2009-08-11, 02:55 PM
....Prone means you can only crawl as your movement mode. That's an implicit speed change. That's like trying to tell me that I should be able to run while burrowing.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-08-11, 02:57 PM
I have returned to the thread! But I wonder where Djinni is I think I will finish up the first combat if Djinni doesn't come back by lunch :smallconfused:

Please do.

AstralFire
2009-08-11, 02:59 PM
By this point most of us know what it is, do we really need to be coy about it?

I definitely know what it is. You should start using the name in conversation, because... I know what it is, and you're definitely not keeping me in the dark with this conversation. Honest. Not working. :smallyuk:

ZeroNumerous
2009-08-11, 03:00 PM
....Prone means you can only crawl as your movement mode. That's an implicit speed change. That's like trying to tell me that I should be able to run while burrowing.

Implicit, yes, but not RAW. :smalltongue:


By this point most of us know what it is, do we really need to be coy about it?

I'm trying. I'll let one of the DMs say what it is.

Myshlaevsky
2009-08-11, 03:00 PM
I definitely know what it is. You should start using the name in conversation, because... I know what it is, and you're definitely not keeping me in the dark with this conversation. Honest. Not working. :smallyuk:

I'm pretty sure I know what it is and I'm not even part of this conversation.

Eldariel
2009-08-11, 03:01 PM
It's a huge.. Well, it's not a biped. But it's not long either. It also says Space/Reach: 15ft/15ft. So I'm 100% certain it has 15ft of reach.

Oh, I missed Tendriculous. Yeah, that has 15' reach, but it's the only one out of the bunch. Ah well, add that to the "tough to beat"-list then; it can crawl and make one attack. After Ray of Enfeeblement, even if it hits, it's probably not lethal but it has Improved Grab and worse, it has Regeneration and enough HP to survive a while.

Best way to fight that would be to whip out your bows and skirmish, spreading to 4 directions and have it run after 1 guy while others bombard it. Of course everyone in the party has a crossbow, at least. It's really close, but I think you can be dealing enough damage to overcome its Reg. You'd really need some blunt weapons though.

I suppose if you happened to have a bunch of Acid Flasks, you could do it (you really need a BUNCH of them though; 1d6 damage to 94 HP takes ~27 hits to kill). Really, ranged blunt weapons would be nice; some kind of a throwable hammer. Hope you have a bunch of those. It doesn't have much AC so you can actually hit it.


RAW, that doesn't work because Prone doesn't change your speed. Your speed is still whatever it was before you got tripped, therefore you can still take five foot steps.

Now you're just rules lawyering. Since it takes you a move action to move 5', you can't take 5' steps. Whether you file that under hampered movement or 5' speed or whatever, I don't care.

AstralFire
2009-08-11, 03:01 PM
I'm pretty sure I know what it is and I'm not even part of this conversation.

My knowledge of the Monster Manuals could fill a thimble sized for a midget Tinkerbell.

ZeroNumerous
2009-08-11, 03:03 PM
Oh, I missed Tendriculous.

Cat's out of the bag.


Best way to fight that would be to whip out your bows and skirmish, spreading to 4 directions and have it run after 1 guy while others bombard it.

One of us has a bow. The others didn't bother to buy one. I'm the only one with a bludgeoning weapon and I'm a crusader. Chances are likely(99.5%) that we'll die.

Plus, it's rather hard to hit without a positive Dexterity modifier. Even the rogue needs to roll a 12 to hit it.

Eldariel
2009-08-11, 03:05 PM
One of us has a bow. The others didn't bother to buy one. I'm the only one with a bludgeoning weapon and I'm a crusader. Chances are likely(99.5%) that we'll die.

Plus, it's rather hard to hit without a positive Dexterity modifier. Even the rogue needs to roll a 12 to hit it.

Yeah, you don't stand a chance. Who told a level 1 party not to at least have friggin' Slings though? I've never played a character without ranged weapons. That's just dumb. I mean, what, do you think you'll never face some guy who doesn't fight you in the ground?

Sorry about saying the name out loud; I had just mentally filed it under "Huge, definitely not bipedal creature" and assumed it's long (I went through the list of CR 6 critters in MM1 when first reading this thread). Turns out I was wrong. Also, it's worth noting that the Centipede is untrippable, but it has low enough speed, HP, to hit and damage that it should be killable the oldfashioned way.

ZeroNumerous
2009-08-11, 03:06 PM
That's just dumb. I mean, what, do you think you'll never face some guy who doesn't fight you in the ground?

Actually, I only brought a trident. Mostly because I expected to die, and so I designed my crusader to at least make himself as large of a target as possible.


Sorry about saying the name out loud; I had just mentally filed it under "Huge, definitely not bipedal creature" and assumed it's long.

S'fine. We were just being coy about hiding the name, since everyone knew what it was. Right? Right?

AstralFire
2009-08-11, 03:08 PM
S'fine. We were just being coy about hiding the name, since everyone knew what it was. Right? Right?

Absolutely.

[Hides google image search for 'tendriculous']

Fitz
2009-08-11, 03:14 PM
well how do you think the party would have done against a couple of other CR 5-6 creatures : (i thought of ettin and arrowhawk (adult) )

Fitz

ZeroNumerous
2009-08-11, 03:18 PM
well how do you think the party would have done against a couple of other CR 5-6 creatures : (i thought of ettin and arrowhawk (adult) )


Arrowhawk: d8+2 damage/round, maybe. Ettin: Entangle, maybe.

The easiest for our group would have been the Xill, honestly.

Eldariel
2009-08-11, 03:37 PM
Adult Arrowhawk frankly falls under the Dragon-territory; you aren't beating that. Though it has much lower HP (mere ~40), it's still a flyer with ranged attacking and you don't have enough dakka to bring it down, especially with its AC (it's over 20). A party specifically built to beat Arrowhawks could have a shot at defeating it, but a generalist party that plans on getting higher levels such as the Wizard/Wizard/Barbarian/Barbarian I suggested just would need extraordinary luck to do anything to it; hope you have True Strikes prepared and high Str Wizards...

The worst part is that its attack is ranged TOUCH so even though you can stack various AC buffs (you could try to find a tree and drop prone for +2 AC from the tree and +4 from prone; any sort of undergrowth would also add a 20% miss chance)...well, better hope you brought that Tower Shield and use it for full cover 'cause you're dying otherwise. With slings, you could be attacking it for 1d4+6 or so per turn with high Str types, but at +3 they have little to no chance of hitting it and it can smoke them in 2-3 hits which will be coming aplenty while you need 4 hits and you'll be lucky to get 1 (casters can be attacking it for 1d8 damage or so with crossbows but their chance to hit isn't any higher).

Spells can't do a **** if it doesn't come to close range (Sleep doesn't affect it due to HD and it flies so stuff like Grease is of little use and it resists Orbs of Fire and the like) and...yeah, your best chance is to have a mount that is on full gallop (light horses have 60' speed so they can maintain distance to it) away from it while you bombard it with a sling/whatever without ever letting it within 50' of you...and it sure as hell isn't dumb enough to try a futile chase on you while giving you free hits.


Ettin is much easier to be honest, thanks to being a melee brawler instead of a fast touch attack doing ranged flyer skirmisher-type. It's vulnerable to many types of disabling spells and isn't overtly efficient without full attacks (but its full attack has 4 attacks so you better never let it get those).

PinkysBrain
2009-08-11, 03:48 PM
I suppose if you happened to have a bunch of Acid Flasks, you could do it (you really need a BUNCH of them though; 1d6 damage to 94 HP takes ~27 hits to kill).
Ye average TWF rogue probably has a couple of acid flasks and alchemists fires on him for when the going gets rough ... more than 4 is not realistic though, so that's only a drop in the pond. A druid with enlarge person, an oversized club and shillelagh will hit for 4d6 ... but he won't survive too long next to it.

Mounted combat with slings seems the only core way to beat it ... but who the hell packs slings?

Myshlaevsky
2009-08-11, 03:52 PM
... but who the hell packs slings?

I would generally expect a few in the average adventuring party, at the very least on people with no other ranged weapons. They're cheap enough to always be affordable.

arkol
2009-08-11, 03:52 PM
At first I thought the tendriculos or however you spell it was a shambling mound. That one would be easy....

I think ANY lvl1 party could beat it, provided SOMEONE in the party had a ranged weapon (high range is possible) and enough ammo.

Eldariel
2009-08-11, 03:55 PM
Ye average TWF rogue probably has a couple of acid flasks and alchemists fires on him for when the going gets rough ... more than 4 is not realistic though, so that's only a drop in the pond. A druid with enlarge person, an oversized club and shillelagh will hit for 4d6 ... but he won't survive too long next to it.

Mounted combat with slings seems the only core way to beat it ... but who the hell packs slings?

I always have slings on my low level characters. Whether it's a Baldur's Gate heritage (where sling was the automatic ranged weapon for all mage-types and such) or just common sense (it costs nothing, weights nothing, is a simple weapon and David killed Goliath with it so it can't be THAT useless).

The bullets unfortunately weight quite a bit; occasionally you'll have to use rocks if you're a low Str type but fortunately enough, 1d3 and 1d4 don't have THAT big a difference (2 vs. 2.5 average damage). The -1 sucks though.


No need to go mounted though. Its speed is only 20'; light load humans (especially Barbarians and their 40' movement speed) can easily skirmish it while outnumbering it. Now, Arrowhawk is a different matter since it has a ranged attack and is fast. There you need mount and incredible idiocy from an Int 10 creature.

The forest terrain where the Tendriculous usually appears makes killing it actually much easier since trees are often dense enough that Huge creature has to squeeze which cuts its already low speed down to crawl. Tendriculous isn't really that big a threat to a level 1 party with sufficient rational preparation provided they figure out how to penetrate its DR (and realize that "hey, that might be slow!"), but in this case, I think the preparation is VERY insufficient. Of course, the "no bullets"-problem is much larger in a forest.

zarakstan
2009-08-11, 04:33 PM
Okay I'm taking over DMing for Djinni for now . . .


EDIT: Okay I've posted in the PBP thread so please respond . . .

ritztastic
2009-08-11, 05:01 PM
This shall be interesting to see.

On the plus side, Zero, if it focuses on you and just maims/kills you, it'll be stuck at half-movement next turn. So at least your companions would be able to run away and forever honor your brave sacrifice.

Maybe you'll get a statue.

ZeroNumerous
2009-08-11, 05:02 PM
On the plus side, Zero, if it focuses on you and just maims/kills you, it'll be stuck at half-movement next turn. So at least your companions would be able to run away and forever honor your brave sacrifice.

That was the point behind my character. Dying horribly.

ritztastic
2009-08-11, 05:07 PM
That was the point behind my character. Dying horribly.

Well, I'm sure you'll do marvelously :smallbiggrin:

PinkysBrain
2009-08-11, 05:37 PM
The Arrowhawk's AC can be mitigated, an illusion can block it's view (until it has good reason to disbelieve it, probably after the first attack) removing it's DEX. Also there is always truestrike.

Against it I'd probably open up by throwing down some smoke for people to hide in. With one of the wizards going in there to cast truestrike, next round throw a tanglefoot bag. Only 25% chance of it failing it's saving throw, but if it does it's screwed.

Dragons are a lot scarier, harder to hide from AoE.

Eldariel
2009-08-11, 06:06 PM
Dragons are a lot scarier, harder to hide from AoE.

Of course, my point was that it plays fundamentally the same game as the Dragons; flies, attacks from range without any danger of retaliation and easily dodges/takes whatever hits you can throw at it.

The principal problem with your suggested solution is that it relies on the party being in the possession of a Tanglefoot Bag, a 50gp alchemical item which is 3rd of the richest' characters budget and pretty much all a Wizard can get. That and the Wizard preparing True Strike which is a horrible choice on first level all things told as it does nothing in and of itself.


But yeah, that'd be an almost decent option; very likely the best chance a low level party has (which is pretty sad since it's a longshot; only a party of dedicated archers could do better). Silent Image is a decent alternative, indeed - it might help quite a bit and it's a spell actually worth preparing. Still, you don't have enough dakka to bring it down in that time.

Olo Demonsbane
2009-08-11, 07:07 PM
Can I get a DM for my party?