Does Flesh to Stone Trap Your Soul?

[Lysander]

A creature turned into stone is not dead and can be restored. Does this mean their soul is trapped in the statue forever? Would smashing the statue "kill" them enough to free their soul or are they still trapped in the pieces? Or does Flesh to Stone eject their soul as if they were dead, and it spends time in the afterlife until Stone to Flesh is cast on them?

What if you cast True Resurrection to bring someone back to life when their statue still exists? Would that free their soul from the statue or would it fail because the target isn't dead?

[Fixer]

A creature turned into stone is not dead and can be restored. Does this mean their soul is trapped in the statue forever? Would smashing the statue "kill" them enough to free their soul or are they still trapped in the pieces? Or does Flesh to Stone eject their soul as if they were dead, and it spends time in the afterlife until Stone to Flesh is cast on them?

What if you cast True Resurrection to bring someone back to life when their statue still exists? Would that free their soul from the statue or would it fail because the target isn't dead?Until the statue crumbles, I believe so.
Yes.
No.
Given the power of the magic, I would allow it as a GM, but this is Rule 0 territory.

[Yora]

From the ways the spell has always worked, I think it's pretty clear that the soul is still inside. He never really died, so you can't resurrect him.
The real question is, if smashing the statue allready kills it, or if he only dies if the petrification is removed?

A gm could houserule that petrification is deadly, but then I would remove Stone to Flesh from the game and use Resurrection to restore the character back to life.

[kamikasei]

I would agree with Fixer, and rule that destroying the statue kills the subject without needing a stone to flesh or the like. However, by analogy with a body turned in to an undead, I'd say the statue has to be destroyed before true resurrection can work.

[JeenLeen]

From SRD "Flesh to Stone"
If the statue resulting from this spell is broken or damaged, the subject (if ever returned to its original state) has similar damage or deformities.

I can agree with ruling it the way mentioned by people, but I think the spell is intended to work differently and it would, in effect, trap the soul. You don't take any damage when the statue is chipped or such, but such does translate into damage when you turn back to flesh.

So a crumbled statue is not a dead person, although you would instantly die when Flesh to Stone wears off or is negated.

Edit: I forgot that Flesh to Stone is instanteous and thus would not "wear off".

[Jack Zander]

I would agree with Fixer, and rule that destroying the statue kills the subject without needing a stone to flesh or the like. However, by analogy with a body turned in to an undead, I'd say the statue has to be destroyed before true resurrection can work.

+1 For good ruling.

[SirKazum]

This reminds me of a question someone posted to the "Sage Advice" column in Dragon mag. back in 2E days. To this day, it's one of the most interesting rules questions I remember seeing. They were asking what happens if, for example, you cast Flesh to Stone on a gnome, then cast Transmute Rock to Mud on the statue, skillfully mold the mud into a goblin shape (since it's the same size after all), and then cast the reverses of both spells. Would this work as a cheap Polymorph, they asked? The answer was no, you'd end up with a goblin-shaped lump of warped and twisted gnome flesh, which would almost certainly die upon receiving Stone to Flesh. And, in fact, I personally believe the same would happen if you flattened the mud and then put it back into the exact same shape it had before.

I know it's a different edition, but I think it may shed some light here. Were I the DM, I'd rule that smashing the statue to pieces is enough damage to kill the affected person and free their soul. Otherwise, their soul is trapped as long as the statue is intact, which makes Flesh to Stone an excellent way to get rid of dangerous enemies, as long as you can keep the statue safe - perhaps bury it way deep...

[Asheram]

which makes Flesh to Stone an excellent way to get rid of dangerous enemies, as long as you can keep the statue safe - perhaps bury it way deep...

Build a bridge out of them!

[HamsterOfTheGod]

It's not specified what happens to the already ill-defined D&D soul when you cast Flesh to Stone, so you have to rule on it as the DM.

It is specified that the creature is not dead, so the creature can't be raised or resurrected.

I think the intention of the spell, is that the soul/mind of the creature is suspended as it were in this ill-defined but static state. That is the soul/mind of the creature is not affected during the duration of the spell. And that it is normally inaccessible.

If the spell is reversed, then of course there may be the shock due to time loss.

[ZeroNumerous]

I think the intention of the spell, is that the soul/mind of the creature is suspended as it were in this ill-defined but static state.

I'd rule that their mind/body is still active. If only because I like moments of I Have No Mouth And I Have To Scream.

[HamsterOfTheGod]

I'd rule that their mind/body is still active. If only because I like moments of I Have No Mouth And I Have To Scream.

Well then would anyone actually reverse a Flesh To Stone spell?

Fighter: Finally, after all these years. We've defeated the Medusa, Bob. We're bringing you home. Go ahead reverse the spell.

Wizard: Stone to Flesh!

Bob: Aaaahhhh!!! Aaaahhhh!!! Aaaahhhh!!! Aaaahhhh!!! ....

Fighter: Make him stop! Make him stop!

[Later]

Fighter: Well Bob, you're home.

Wizard: Hmm...I think he looks better by the fireplace.

[AstralFire]

This is what Programmed Amnesia is for.

[HamsterOfTheGod]

This is what Programmed Amnesia is for.

OK so Bob makes a nice conversation piece until we can Mindrape him...

[Bob the Urgh]

It's not the least bit fun being turned to stone.

[Berserk Monk]

You know, I had an idea on how to perma-kill a character: turn them to stone, smash the thing into tiny bits, and scatter them across a country.

[ZeroNumerous]

You know, I had an idea on how to perma-kill a character

I had an idea too (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/trapTheSoul.htm).

[Glyde]

I rule that they go to 'sleep' while in stone. Their internal junk is all petrified too, remember.

This sleep can of course be used for visions, dreams, visitations by gods and/or goddesses and game-changing revelations! I love flesh to stone <3

[Berserk Monk]

I had an idea too (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/trapTheSoul.htm).

Yeah, but you can destroy ond stone. My idea forces you to turn several thousand stones into flesh.

[olentu]

Yeah, but you can destroy ond stone. My idea forces you to turn several thousand stones into flesh.

One could use the soul in the gem as a component destroying the soul completely.

[SirKazum]

I think we've pretty much agreed that smashing the statue kills the person, thereby freeing the soul. But yeah, I guess Flesh to Stone can be essentially used as a two-levels-lower version of Trap the Soul, in what really matters anyway...

[jmbrown]

Once you smash a statue there's no piecing it together short of some miraculous power (wish). Even if you glued it together, you'd have a cracked statue that just happens to be glued together.

I'd rule that any damage to the statue that would result in death also kills the person. Knocking an arm off won't cause any damage but breaking the torso in half, removing the head, chipping off a chunk of the neck and so on would kill the person.

[Lysander]

I think Wish or Miracle would be able to retrieve the statue. I say that because of this function:


Transport travelers. A wish can lift one creature per caster level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies.

I would rule that you could summon the statue that way even if you didn't know where it was. Then you'd have to use Stone to Flesh or another spell to restore them.

[Blue Warlock]

Once you smash a statue there's no piecing it together short of some miraculous power (wish). Even if you glued it together, you'd have a cracked statue that just happens to be glued together.

I'd rule that any damage to the statue that would result in death also kills the person. Knocking an arm off won't cause any damage but breaking the torso in half, removing the head, chipping off a chunk of the neck and so on would kill the person.

You know, glue is one thing, but spells like mending, make whole, repair x damage and whatnot exist. I think that should allow you to return the character to life normally if cast on the broken statue before Stone to Flesh has been cast.

Would also create a bunch of really cool situations too (a fewPCs could sneak into a city disguised as rubble, with the wizard able to return them to normal later.)

[JeenLeen]

You know, glue is one thing, but spells like mending, make whole, repair x damage and whatnot exist. I think that should allow you to return the character to life normally if cast on the broken statue before Stone to Flesh has been cast.

Would also create a bunch of really cool situations too (a fewPCs could sneak into a city disguised as rubble, with the wizard able to return them to normal later.)

The difficulty being reshaping the body putting each piece exactly where it was. Although a good skill check of some Craft or other skill, or Heal, might suffice. Otherwise, having your lungs inside your leg might cause death, as noted in 2nd ed FAQ reference earlier by SirKazum.

It is rather possible if the stone making up what was different organs has different patterns on it. It's all the same time of stone, but do the individual grains--forgive me if I'm not using the correct geological terminiology--mark it such that you can tell blood and tissue apart, perhaps different organs if you are skilled enough?

[AstralFire]

BAH! Stone is stone is stone. I personally think if you replace someone's eyes with obsidian then flesh to stone them they should get mirrors that shoot lasers for eyes.

[ZeroNumerous]

The difficulty being reshaping the body putting each piece exactly where it was. Although a good skill check of some Craft or other skill, or Heal, might suffice. Otherwise, having your lungs inside your leg might cause death, as noted in 2nd ed FAQ reference earlier by SirKazum.

Mending doesn't care about your biology, it just fixes you (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mending.htm).

[Curmudgeon]

Mending is limited to 1 lb., so it's not going to work on stone creatures. However, Make Whole will do the trick if you can collect the pieces -- and they're pieces, not powder.

[Jack Zander]

Flesh to Stone > Stone to Mud > Purify Food and Water > Drink > Pee in a River > Win.

[AstralFire]

That's kind of win yet disturbing at the same time.

[Fixer]

I don't think purify food and drink will have that effect.

After all, Stone to Flesh transforms flesh into stone.
Transmute Rock to Mud basically adds a great deal of water.
Purify Food and Drink then removes that water and leaves... hardened mud?

So what you are drinking isn't the original character, just what the Transmute Rock to Mud spell added.

[ZeroNumerous]

I don't think purify food and drink will have that effect.

Plus the guy's soul was released anyway since the statue was very effectively destroyed when it was turned to mud.

[Eloel]

Flesh to Stone > Stone to Mud > Purify Food and Water > Drink > Pee in a River > Win.

DM: You killed the BBEG. His cleric friends resurrect him.
Player: I don't think they do, we still have the soul in the statue.
DM: They'll attack you to take it back.
Player: Not if I drink him first.
DM: Huh?
Player: I cast Stone to Mud, Purify Food and Water, Prestigidation, and drink as if drinking, say, milkshake!
DM throws PHB.


Plus the guy's soul was released anyway since the statue was very effectively destroyed when it was turned to mud.
No, imo. The body is in a perfect statis, no blood flows, nothing happens to harm the individual. The statue's shape is changed, granted, but there's nothing that says 'destructed'.

[ZeroNumerous]

No, imo. The body is in a perfect statis, no blood flows, nothing happens to harm the individual. The statue's shape is changed, granted, but there's nothing that says 'destructed'.

Is it a statue any longer? If not, then the statue has been destroyed. It's now a lump of mud. If a change of shape and composition did not destroy the statue then neither does Disintegrate or chopping it into little bits of gravel.

[Draken]

Obviously the real use of Flesh to Stone is to petrify your allies, Polymorph any Object them into statues of stronger creatures and then turn them back.
Side-effects might be lack of internal organs, DM unstoppable rage, concussion wounds by hardcover books, falling rocks and frikkin' acidborn giant squids grafted to frikkin' sharks with frikkin' lasers on their frikkin' heads and frikkin' tentacles inside pools of frikkin' acid.

[...Eh?]

You know, the description for Stone to Flesh states that a statue transformed by the spell would become a corpse. Does that mean your local tricky wizard should have a statue of himself in his closet, just in case he needs to fake his own death? Or, better yet, should he keep two; one for faking his own death, and one to cast Stone to Flesh on, followed by Gentle Repose, so that if his body is destroyed, he has a backup corpse for his cleric friend to ressurect him with?

Also, Wall of Stone + Stone to Flesh = Horror?

[Etcetera]

How about you petrify them, animate them, then send them off to attack separate enemies! Your enemies will then destroy them (eventually), and the pieces will effectively have scattered themselves far and wide. Plane shift them to the abyss, use them as bodyguards (or human shields). Or march them of high cliffs.

[Doresain]

no, you petrify them, animate them, then send them after their former friends and family

[tyckspoon]

You know, the description for Stone to Flesh states that a statue transformed by the spell would become a corpse. Does that mean your local tricky wizard should have a statue of himself in his closet, just in case he needs to fake his own death? Or, better yet, should he keep two; one for faking his own death, and one to cast Stone to Flesh on, followed by Gentle Repose, so that if his body is destroyed, he has a backup corpse for his cleric friend to ressurect him with?


A corpse that looks like you =/= your corpse. A corpse that looks like you is handy if you want to try and convince somebody you are dead, but it isn't a viable target for bringing you back with Raise Dead or Resurrection (I have no idea what would happen to it if you tried, but it wouldn't be you coming back.) Likewise Speak With Dead would have no useful result, as the corpse had never actually been alive to gain any knowledge. Stone To Fleshing statues is a really handy way for necromancers to acquire exotic, um, 'materials', tho.

[ZeroNumerous]

Stone To Fleshing statues is a really handy way for necromancers to acquire exotic, um, 'materials', tho.

'Specially if you sculpt it first. Half Dragon Dragonborn Dwarf zombies! Yay!

[Ganurath]

'Specially if you sculpt it first. Half Dragon Dragonborn Dwarf zombies! Yay!Elves and Orcs are better than dwarves where undead are concerned.

Also, Flesh to Stone + Wall of Stone + Stone Shape melding + Stone to Flesh = And I Must Scream?

[Jack Zander]

I don't think purify food and drink will have that effect.

After all, Stone to Flesh transforms flesh into stone.
Transmute Rock to Mud basically adds a great deal of water.
Purify Food and Drink then removes that water and leaves... hardened mud?

So what you are drinking isn't the original character, just what the Transmute Rock to Mud spell added.

It wouldn't remove the water. Dirt isn't food. It would take the mud (AKA, dirty water) and remove the dirt.

[ZeroNumerous]

Elves and Orcs are better than dwarves where undead are concerned.

Of course, I was just pointing out template stacking. Those given templates actually aren't all that useful as a zombie since the CON bonuses and (Su) powers bite the big one.

[jmbrown]

I'll admit that up until now I've never thought about how easy/hard it is to damage a stone statue (because no player in any of my games has ever been turned to stone). I think this is a fair ruling:

Stone has a hardness 8 and hp = 15/inch of thickness. For the case of stoned... er, petrified creatures, the hp is equal to their hp when they were turned to stone. If their hp reaches zero the statue crumbles utterly and the character effectively dies.

Using the D&D fantasy rules for HP as an abstraction, maiming a character via breaking off pieces of their statue is an all-or-nothing affair. You can chip off pieces, but you're effectively dealing hit point damage to them. Purposefully knocking off their arm or head counts as a coup-de-grace; have the petrified character make the save as if they weren't petrified. If they fail, the statue crumbles utterly and they die. If they survive then obviously the maiming would take affect if they're returned to flesh.

Now we have the problem with spells like "make whole." Make whole would repair the statue, but it states in the description that "The spell does not restore the magical abilities of a broken magic item made whole." I think in this case, a living creature's soul would count as a "magical ability." If a human statue is destroyed, the character is killed, and repairing it would only repair their body. Turning them to flesh would still give you a dead body which you could raise or what have you.

In short: a statue's hp = the petrified character's hp. Destroying a statue kills a character. No magic short of wish can restore "life" to petrified remains.

[Zeful]

A corpse that looks like you =/= your corpse. A corpse that looks like you is handy if you want to try and convince somebody you are dead, but it isn't a viable target for bringing you back with Raise Dead or Resurrection (I have no idea what would happen to it if you tried, but it wouldn't be you coming back.) Likewise Speak With Dead would have no useful result, as the corpse had never actually been alive to gain any knowledge. Stone To Fleshing statues is a really handy way for necromancers to acquire exotic, um, 'materials', tho.

Clone + Flesh to Stone then.

[Dervag]

It wouldn't remove the water. Dirt isn't food. It would take the mud (AKA, dirty water) and remove the dirt.I disagree with this for philosophical reasons. I contend that if you try to "purify drink" on mud, it should fail. Mud and dirty water aren't the same thing; mud is dirt with water in it, not water with dirt in it.

Of course, if you're determined enough you can still dilute the mud to the point where purify spells will get a purchase on it.

[only1doug]

I disagree with this for philosophical reasons. I contend that if you try to "purify drink" on mud, it should fail. Mud and dirty water aren't the same thing; mud is dirt with water in it, not water with dirt in it.

Of course, if you're determined enough you can still dilute the mud to the point where purify spells will get a purchase on it.

people can eat mud, it doesn't kill them (although it has very little nutricious value).

Purify food and water makes spoiled, rotten, poisonous or otherwise contaminated food or drink safe to consume.

stone to mud won't be spoiled rotten or poisonous but mud might be viewed as contamination of the water held within (or might not).

personally I'd have purify food and drink seperate water from the mud leaving you a cubic foot of dehydrated mud and a couple of skins worth of water.
(what does dehydrated mud look like? depends how the spell works really, but I'd say a very big pile of dust).

[Curmudgeon]

Purify Food and Drink works on dirty water. If you keep adding dirt to the water, it's dirtier water, or thin mud. Add still more dirt and it's thicker mud. There's nothing in the spell description that makes a distinction at some level of contamination. The spell should keep working down to the last drop of drink or morsel of food. The limitation is purely in how much useful stuff you can get out of the volume specified in the spell.

[SirKazum]

Also, Wall of Stone + Stone to Flesh = Horror?

Hmmm... here I'm thinking, "Wall of Stone + Stone to Flesh = Feed the Hungry" :smallbiggrin:

Also, is it too disturbing to contemplate casting Stone to Flesh (Enlarged if necessary) on a house, castle etc? Hey, in a siege, it could both make the walls easier to bring down, and solve the problem of feeding the invading army... but maybe there is such a thing as being too practical:smalltongue:

[jmbrown]

What's the hardness of 1 inch of flesh?

And for that matter, what's the chemical makeup of said flesh? Are we talking muscle + fat + skin? Just fat? Just muscle?

I'm... going to file this in my "must do to surprise a new DM" folder.

[Curmudgeon]

what's the chemical makeup of said flesh? Are we talking muscle + fat + skin? Just fat? Just muscle?
We know that if it originally started as a creature, Stone to Flesh restores it. But if it's just a chunk of stone it could be anything: gristle and lymph would qualify. :smallyuk:
The spell also can convert a mass of stone into a fleshy substance. Such flesh is inert and lacking a vital life force unless a life force or magical energy is available. Edibility is not guaranteed. You should always read the nutritional information on the package before casting. :smalltongue:

[SirKazum]

Well, if it really turns a (man-made) statue into a corpse, I'm assuming the spell will inject some anatomical variety into the resulting flesh. Though one wonders what kind of creature would serve as a baseline for a Wall of Stone... maybe a gelatinous cube? Yeah, maybe not good eatin's. I would recommend having a backup plan in place to feed your people with.

[Keld Denar]

Yea...Lewis and Clark almost died from malnourishment during a section of their expedition where they ate nothing but elk meat. The elk they ate didn't have a very diverse diet and failed to metabolise certain vitamins, B12 IIRC. The lack of those vitamins almost killed them, despite the fact that they had TONS of elk to eat.

So yea...having a 60' high 10' deep slab of meat doesn't exactly garuntee nutrition. Would make breaching a wall easier.

What about Flesh to Stone + Disintegrate + Gust of Wind?

If their soul is indeed trapped in the statue, and you turned that statue into a fine dust and then gust that dust into...say...an ocean. GL?

[tiercel]

I always liked:

BBEG waits for would-be heroes.
BBEG flesh to stones would-be heroes.
BBEG stone shapes resulting statues into flagstones.
BBEG has new flooring for his entryway.

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions."

Something cheery for the BBEG to whistle about as he goes out to check his mail.

-----

On a related note, if you Heighten stone shape to 6th level how many ways of reversing its effects are there? (Break enchantment only hits 5th level spells and below, if they aren't valid targets for dispel magic.) I assume wish or miracle might still work, but good luck figuring out which flagstone/statue/piece of brick in the middle of the BBEG's fortress is the stone shaped flesh to stoned trapped form of the person you want to rescue. (After all, both stone shape and flesh to stone are Instantaneous, so presumably there is no magical aura. Higher-powered divinations might do the trick.)

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Yea...Lewis and Clark almost died from malnourishment during a section of their expedition where they ate nothing but elk meat. The elk they ate didn't have a very diverse diet and failed to metabolise certain vitamins, B12 IIRC. The lack of those vitamins almost killed them, despite the fact that they had TONS of elk to eat.

So yea...having a 60' high 10' deep slab of meat doesn't exactly garuntee nutrition. Would make breaching a wall easier.

What about Flesh to Stone + Disintegrate + Gust of Wind?

If their soul is indeed trapped in the statue, and you turned that statue into a fine dust and then gust that dust into...say...an ocean. GL?One better. I remember somone mentioning a spell with "a bit of dust" as a material component. Scattering is far less useful than utter destruction.

[AstralFire]

I always liked:

BBEG waits for would-be heroes.
BBEG flesh to stones would-be heroes.
BBEG stone shapes resulting statues into flagstones.
BBEG has new flooring for his entryway.

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions."

I'm stealing that. That is wonderful.

[Glyde]

Prestidigitation the mud so it tastes like pudding. Omit the purify water step all together.

[Keld Denar]

Would you eat it with farva beans and a nice chianti?

[erikun]

Also, Wall of Stone + Stone to Flesh = Horror?
I believe this is how the Elemental Plane of Flesh (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53869) started out.

Also, interesting point. If Flesh to Stone works on inanimate objects (like psudo-dead bodies) does that mean it works on undead?

Flesh to Stone the Lich into a statue, so the soul can't return to its phylactery.

[Johel]

Flesh to Stone + Animate Object + Permanency = ???
:smallsmile:

Also, to get rid of somebody you really DON'T want to see coming back :
Day 1
Soul Bind (or, failing that, Trap the Soul)
Symbol of Death (on the gem)
Day 2
Plane Shift
Forbiddance
Mage’s Private Sanctum + Permanency
Day 3
Several "Wall of Stone" (to create a large cube of stone)
Meld into Stone (yourself and the gem)
Stone Shape (to create a small cavity at the center of the cube)
Symbol of Insanity + Permanency (for eternal protection)
Day 4
Plane Shift (back home)


Let the gem at the center of the cube
Whatever try to deliver the "prisoner" must first :

Locate it
Planeshift
Endure the Forbiddance
Endure the Symbol of Insanity
Go through the stone OR destroy it
Endure the Symbol of Death

[Etcetera]

How about you stone shape (or just sculpt) the animated statues into something else... You could have animated paving slabs (if you make it wides and flat enough, could it constrict, you could change their hands into hammers, you could cut the feet off and replace them with wheels for the speed boost. It wouldn't be as scary as seeing the petrified statue of your friend attack you though. The castor wheels would be very squeaky. Reminds me slightly of the Autons in Dr Who.

[Ganurath]

Flesh to Stone + Animate Object + Permanency = ???
:smallsmile:

Also, to get rid of somebody you really DON'T want to see coming back :
Day 1
Soul Bind (or, failing that, Trap the Soul)
Symbol of Death (on the gem)
Day 2
Plane Shift
Forbiddance
Mage’s Private Sanctum + Permanency
Day 3
Several "Wall of Stone" (to create a large cube of stone)
Meld into Stone (yourself and the gem)
Stone Shape (to create a small cavity at the center of the cube)
Symbol of Insanity + Permanency (for eternal protection)
Day 4
Plane Shift (back home)


Let the gem at the center of the cube
Whatever try to deliver the "prisoner" must first :

Locate it
Planeshift
Endure the Forbiddance
Endure the Symbol of Insanity
Go through the stone OR destroy it
Endure the Symbol of Death
Easier version:

1. Trap the Soul
2. Offer to Asmodeus in exchange for some boon. If Asmodeus has that soul, there's no way anyone is getting it back.

[Irbis]

Okay... this discussion is nice, but if FtS really traps the soul, why it is level 6th spell, when TtS is level 8th?

Is it better in some way of is it really redundant?

Plus, TtS requires really expensive component, while FtS requires a handful of dirt.

[Johel]

Well, since you can't really carry a 6 feet tall statue in your pocket, I guess "Trap Soul" is better. Easier to conceal a gem than a statue.
Also, you don't actually have to be physically there to use "Trap Soul" on somebody. Just send a mail with the gem.

"-Dear,

Accept this modest gift as a proof of my undying love.
I'll wait at the Dragon's hale tavern tonight.
I'll wear a red skirt (a short one...)

Your secret (and yet anonymous) love"

:smalltongue:

[Kaiyanwang]

6 feet tall is optymistic. Think about a stoned dragon.

And there are being immune to pietrifications (celestials, as an example).

More, TtS has two trigger methods, allowing more complicated plans.

[Yuki Akuma]

Trap the Soul also can't be foiled by a sixth-level spell.

[Fixer]

We know that if it originally started as a creature, Stone to Flesh restores it. But if it's just a chunk of stone it could be anything: gristle and lymph would qualify. :smallyuk: Edibility is not guaranteed. You should always read the nutritional information on the package before casting. :smalltongue:Stone to Venison spell.....

[Zormac]

Definition of "Petrified Status" (as of www.d20srd.org):

A petrified character has been turned to stone and is considered unconscious. If a petrified character cracks or breaks, but the broken pieces are joined with the body as he returns to flesh, he is unharmed. If the character’s petrified body is incomplete when it returns to flesh, the body is likewise incomplete and there is some amount of permanent hit point loss and/or debilitation.

[Sir.Swindle]

I'm sorry, it had to be done.

What's the hardness of 1 inch of flesh?

Depends on if your mother is around!

If you Flesh to Stoned a person, broke the statue to pieces and scattered them or hid them. Couldn't some one case Stone to Flesh on a piece (they could use some divination stuff to find one prolly) and create an "incomplete body" killing the petrified person. Then resurect them fairly easy since they have a part of the corpse of the recently dead person?

Stone to flesh is my new favorite dungeon crashing method :smallbiggrin:

[Thurbane]

So, if someone is turned to stone, that stone ground to dust, and the dust scattered to the four winds...nothing short of a Wish is gonna bring them back?

[Sstoopidtallkid]

So, if someone is turned to stone, that stone ground to dust, and the dust scattered to the four winds...nothing short of a Wish is gonna bring them back?Why leave the dust existing? Flesh to Stone, Transmute Rock to Mud, add more water then Purify Food and Drink. Nothing of the enemy remains.

[ericgrau]

Based on how it's worded, it seems like you need a flesh to stone first. Even if the statue is damaged the description seems to imply that it doesn't hurt (or kill) the creature until after it is returned to flesh. But the issue seems rather moot, since a flesh to stone is a lot easier to do than a resurrection.

Based on the wording of purify food and drink, I doubt it would affect stone dust or dirt. Stone dust and dirt are inert, not harmful. May even provide a little beneficial minerals. They're not very soluble either; the only thing that keeps them from settling at the bottom is stirring. Simpler to scatter statue dust or mud anyway.

[Thurbane]

Why leave the dust existing? Flesh to Stone, Transmute Rock to Mud, add more water then Purify Food and Drink. Nothing of the enemy remains.
Well, maybe, but good luck finding the dust that has been scattered on the breeze...

[Lysander]

Maybe petrification deserves its own homebrew rule: Petrification displaces the subject's soul, and spiritually they are dead and travel to the afterlife. If the subject's body is ever unpetrified their soul is forcibly brought back unless they have a new body or unless their soul is trapped elsewhere.

[Sir_Elderberry]

Think about a stoned dragon.

Dude, dude, let's like...take all the gold in the world, right, and build a pile? And then we can like, sleep on it.

[Lysander]

*Raise Thread!* I've been thinking about this thread and had another idea or two.

It doesn't seem like Purify Food and Drink could destroy a pulverized petrified creature:


Unholy water and similar food and drink of significance is spoiled by purify food and drink, but the spell has no effect on creatures of any type nor upon magic potions.

A stone creature turned to dust is still a creature (they're not even dead!), and so the spell wouldn't so anything to their remains.

Scattering their remains to the wind is actually a terrible idea. Each individual grain can be used to bring them back. Just cast stone to flesh to turn a grain of dust into a tiny dead speck of flesh (hey, resurrection doesn't say how dead they have to be. just being a tiny speck of flesh could be considered a loss of 99.99% of their body), then resurrect them from that. And these grains of dust would be easy to find. Just scry the person and a random grain of dust will probably show up. Teleport to that location and use Detect Magic to find the magical grain even in the middle of a beach.

Now on to another topic: why is Trap the Soul better than Stone to Flesh? The reason is that TTS has a trigger method that does not allow a save or spell resistance.

[MickJay]

I think it's specifically mentioned somewhere that you can't detect a petrified person with scrying. However, it should not be beyond the power of Wish to reassemble the dispersed pieces of a person together.

Stone to Flesh specifies that if you break off a "statue's" arm, but put it back again, the person will be complete and healthy on being turned back. Missing parts will also be missing from re-fleshed person (who will get a reduction of total hp at that point). This makes it quite clear that even shattering a statue to tiny bits does not kill the person inside (though they would be dead when brought back - unless the pieces were correctly put back together).

Also, what's with the Rock to Mud euphoria? The spell's description (SRD) makes it clear that it only works on natural stone, even mundane means of altering the rock (cutting) make the spell fail (so it's useless in any dungeon except for natural caverns), and magically created statue is even less "natural" than a chiseled block of stone.

[Lysander]

Stone to Flesh specifies that if you break off a "statue's" arm, but put it back again, the person will be complete and healthy on being turned back. Missing parts will also be missing from re-fleshed person (who will get a reduction of total hp at that point). This makes it quite clear that even shattering a statue to tiny bits does not kill the person inside (though they would be dead when brought back - unless the pieces were correctly put back together)

I just realized the biggest problem of all with the whole "scatter them to the winds" idea. Just because they're a statue doesn't mean they don't have hitpoints. Stone has 15 hitpoints/inch. It doesn't say anywhere that petrified creatures cannot die, merely that they retain injuries sustained while petrified and that petrification is not fatal in and of itself. Once they reach 0hp (or even -10hp since FTS never says it changes when they die) they should die.

[MickJay]

Well, it doesn't say that the petrified creature can die while being unconscious in the stone. The stone's HPs are separate from the creature's HPs. "Killing" the stone is just a more mechanical description of breaking the statue (but nothing suggests that it immediately hurts the trapped creature itself). The descriptions of FtS would suggest that the damage to the statue is also "petrified", frozen, and only takes effect when the stone is brought back with StF.

Also, my bad, you can scry a petrified such a person, it's just that they "detect" as dead.

As for Wish, the effect on the petrified person would be that of teleportation, rather than of recreating the body ("Transport travelers. A wish can lift one creature per caster level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions."). Since the person is still technically not dead, they are a creature, even if dispersed. "anywhere on any plane" nicely covers attempts of scattering the dust.

[Darrin]

Also, my bad, you can scry a petrified such a person, it's just that they "detect" as dead.


No, not dead. If the creature was petrified via the Flesh to Stone spell, the spell description specifies they are now a mindless, inert statue. It does not detect as either dead or alive. Scrying would either just fail (the target is not currently considered a living creature) or give you really confusing results. More of a DM call, really.

The best way to locate such a creature would probably be Discern Location, but you'd have to be pretty careful with how you worded what you were looking for... if you tried to locate a living creature, the spell would probably just fail. If you tried to locate a statue that looks exactly like the creature you're looking for, you might have better luck.

If the creature was petrified via some other means (such as a medusa, basilisk, cockatrice, prismatic spray, breath of the gorgon, blackstone gigant, etc.), then the creature would be considered unconscious, but still a living creature. Thus, Scrying or Discern Location with a target creature might work better.

Pointless trivia: the fate of my current campaign world depends on this little quirk in the Flesh to Stone spell. The artifact they need to save the world was hidden on a mindless scorpion that had been turned into stone, which was preventing uber-high level wizard shenanigans from locating it.

It's also become the party's standard solution to anything really weird that I throw at them:

"The prince is going to turn into a Chaos Beast in a few minutes? Flesh to stone."

"A magical plague that inflicts horrible mutations and can't be cured by standard healing spells? Flesh to stone."

[Lysander]

Why would petrification from a Gorgon or Basilisk operate any differently than Flesh to Stone?

Discern Location shouldn't be troubled by petrification. It functions on creatures and objects and nothing other than Mind Blank or divine intervention stops it, so just saying "That petrified scorpion with the information I want on it" should reveal its location. Technically scrying should work too since a petrified creature is still a creature, and since its considered unconscious when petrified it'd autofail its will save vs scrying. But house rules are house rules and if it helps the campaign, all the better.

[Darrin]

Why would petrification from a Gorgon or Basilisk operate any differently than Flesh to Stone?


The Flesh to Stone spell never mentions petrification. By RAW, the spell effect is a completely different condition from "Petrified" as the result of a gorgon/basilisk/medusa. RAI, it's probably not worth the bother to consider them separate effects.



Discern Location shouldn't be troubled by petrification. It functions on creatures and objects and nothing other than Mind Blank or divine intervention stops it, so just saying "That petrified scorpion with the information I want on it" should reveal its location.


The BBEGs trying to find the macguffin didn't know they were looking for a petrified scorpion. They were looking for a creature, not an object. Hence, I decided Discern Location was getting them bupkis.



Technically scrying should work too since a petrified creature is still a creature, and since its considered unconscious when petrified it'd autofail its will save vs scrying.

By my interpretation, "mindless, inert statue" = object, no longer a creature. And yeah, the plot kinda revolves around it, and so far the players haven't been all that argumentative about it.

[absolmorph]

Based on how it's worded, it seems like you need a flesh to stone first. Even if the statue is damaged the description seems to imply that it doesn't hurt (or kill) the creature until after it is returned to flesh. But the issue seems rather moot, since a flesh to stone is a lot easier to do than a resurrection.

Based on the wording of purify food and drink, I doubt it would affect stone dust or dirt. Stone dust and dirt are inert, not harmful. May even provide a little beneficial minerals. They're not very soluble either; the only thing that keeps them from settling at the bottom is stirring. Simpler to scatter statue dust or mud anyway.
That plan stops at Transmute Rock to Mud (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/transmuteRockToMud.htm)


This spell turns natural, uncut or unworked rock of any sort into an equal volume of mud.
Emphasis mine.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

That plan stops at Transmute Rock to Mud (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/transmuteRockToMud.htm)


Emphasis mine.People keep saying this and ignoring stuff like stone shape, fabricate, or disintegrate to turn the statue into dirt and dust. Then add water, purify as normal.

[MickJay]

Creatures or magic items cannot be transmuted by Fabricate. You can still grind down the statue to powder, or disintegrate it, though.

Purify still wouldn't work, a small amount of stone dust does not "contaminate" water (it's still drinkable): spell's description lists only harmful substances (that then somehow get neutralized. Whether they become inert or are transported somewhere else is anyone's guess). "Suitable for eating or drinking" does not necessarily mean "crystal clear and tasty", it just means it whatever you're eating/drinking won't harm you.

If there's a lot of dust: by strict reading, mud wouldn't even be an allowed target for the spell (it's just wet earth, there's so little water in it, the cantrip would most likely fail to work). Why not try use PF/D on a trunk of a tree? It also contains water/some nutrients. Sure, if you first drain the water from mud and then purify it...

And honestly, what's the point of trying to purify the mud? If you scatter the powdered statue, the only real option of bringing the person back is Wish (which would also work on a "purified" body), for recreation of the body, OR it would teleport "person" (now in millions of tiny bits) to the desired location (and preferably put them back together) - depending on your interpretation of which effect works better.

You could also try to scry for the FtSed person, use whatever means to get the tininest piece of statue, Stone to Flesh that, and hope resurrection works on the "part" of the body, but that's less likely to work (unless DM decides that it can work).

[Dr.Epic]

One would assume it does. The entry says you are neither alive nor dead thus your soul is not on this or another plane which makes flesh to stone the ultimate way make sure a villain isn't going to return. Turn that sucker into stone, smash the pieces into generic rocks, and scatter them around the country side. Maybe even toss them into the ocean or into a rock quarry. may it super impossible to find them all.

[Lysander]

There are two ways to view it. It really depends on what you view as death. Let's say you want to kill a person who has been petrified and shattered so you can then resurrect them. How can we go about this?

One view is that you need to unpetrify the majority of the body so that it can die. The other view is that you just need to unpetrify any piece of the body so it can die. I think there's evidence to support the second view:



If the statue resulting from this spell is broken or damaged, the subject (if ever returned to its original state) has similar damage or deformities.

Let's say you only recover one grain of sand from the entire statue and turn that back into flesh. The first view is that "oh that's just a tiny speck of the body, it doesn't count." The other view is "holy crap, that guy just lost almost all of his body except for one tiny speck of flesh! He's definitely dead now!" The second view can be correct because, technically bringing back any piece of the subject is returning the subject to their original state. The "deformity" is just the loss of pretty much everything and all their hitpoints.

I think a DM could also rule that the statue "dies" at 0hp. Technically Flesh to Stone doesn't actually say that you can't be killed in statue form, just that petrification does not equal death. "Broken or damaged" does not necessarily mean destroyed.