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Morquard
2009-08-10, 09:37 AM
Hi

I've never before played a druid or a ranger fo rthat matter, and the rules for Animal companions confuse me. The questions may sound stupid to veterans I bet, I'm sorry.

We start the campaign at 4th level, and I've read that the Ape is supposedly the best combat pet for that level, so I checked the stats for it.
Now the description says a animal companion gets the BAB of a druid of the same level as the HD of the companion.

a) However the Ape gets a -3 level adjustment, so does it only have 1 HD now and gets +0 bab. Or still 4 HD and +3 bab?

b) The stats here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ape.htm) say that an ape has a +7 attack, but I guess that part gets overwritten when its a companion?

c) What about the Full attack line?

I think thats kind of the most confusing things for me right now for deciding on an animal.

Woodsman
2009-08-10, 09:38 AM
a) However the Ape gets a -3 level adjustment, so does it only have 1 HD now and gets +0 bab. Or still 4 HD and +3 bab?

b) The stats here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ape.htm) say that an ape has a +7 attack, but I guess that part gets overwritten when its a companion?

c) What about the Full attack line?

a) Still 4 HD, + 3 attack

b) That stays the same.

c) Same as in it's entry.

Morquard
2009-08-10, 09:52 AM
Hm, ok, thanks for the quick answer.

Still not sure I fully understand it, so lets see if I understand it correctly.
Lets assume I would still use a wolf as companion at level 4.

He'd have 6 HD (4 because I'm 4, and +2 from the adjustment table)
BAB of 4 (as a level 6 druid would)
Attacks with Bite +6 for 1d6+2 damage
Get evasion as bonus feat

While an ape would have
4 HD, BAB 3, and attack for Claw +7 for 1d6+5

Thats correct, or did I mess it up?

Kylarra
2009-08-10, 10:05 AM
The part you're confusing is that the level adjustment of -3 is for the bonuses granted by the table. (Note: you can alleviate this penalty by taking the Natural Bond feat CAdv p111)

ie at level 4, your ape companion would get the bonuses as if you were a level 1 druid.

The reason the ape is the same as the entry is that it currently doesn't have any bonus HD.

Eloel
2009-08-10, 10:19 AM
Now the description says a animal companion gets the BAB of a druid of the same level as the HD of the companion.


That's just an unneededly complex explanation. An easier one (with the exact same meaning), would be;

Animal companions have BABs at 3/4 of their HD, rounded down.

I think you're confused by the PHB-description of things.


Bonus HD

Extra eight-sided (d8) Hit Dice, each of which gains a Constitution modifier, as normal. Remember that extra Hit Dice improve the animal companion’s base attack and base save bonuses. An animal companion’s base attack bonus is the same as that of a druid of a level equal to the animal’s HD. An animal companion has good Fortitude and Reflex saves (treat it as a character whose level equals the animal’s HD). An animal companion gains additional skill points and feats for bonus HD as normal for advancing a monster’s Hit Dice.

This, can be shortened, without losing ANY meaning, to;

Bonus HD

Extra animal Hit Dice (see Animal Type), with all benefits, except size increases.


Lets assume I would still use a wolf as companion at level 4.

He'd have 6 HD (4 because I'm 4, and +2 from the adjustment table)
BAB of 4 (as a level 6 druid would)
Attacks with Bite +6 for 1d6+2 damage
Get evasion as bonus feat

Ugh, no.
You'd have a wolf (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/wolf.htm), with all benefits on table to 4th level. (Which is; +2 Animal HD, +2 Natural Armor, +1 Str/Dex, 2 tricks, Evasion/Link/Share Spells.)
He'd have 4HD (d8), 3BAB, +4 Ref/Fort, +1 Will as base stats.

Eldariel
2009-08-10, 10:29 AM
Bonus HD = Taking levels in the animal class. It's no more complex than that. So you take your animal companion's stats from Monster Manual and give it two more levels and everything that comes with generic levels (extra feat every 3 levels, extra stat every 4 levels, extra HP for each HD [just take average; d8 = 4.5 average], extra BAB like a Medium BAB class, 1 skill per level due to their Int being 1-2).

Then apply the other adjustments and give it whatever special abilities it is due. But yeah, "better animal companions" treat your effective Druid-level for applying the bonuses as lower. So the "level 4 animal companions" treat your Druid-level as 3 levels lower than it actually is for bonuses. So they get bonuses equal to a Druid of your level - 3 (4-3=1), and level 1 Druid has no bonuses.


Also, best level 4 Animal Companion is Fleshraker, but as that's in MM3, it's probably not available.

I'd say Dire Bat is the second bets; it's superb as a flying mount, but it actually also has fine stats for a pure fight.

Morquard
2009-08-10, 11:07 AM
Ok, for some reason I thought that the animal would automatically level up with me and the HD as I have, and the bonus HD for being a low level pet to balance it somehow. But I can't really find anymore why I thought that. Most likely I misread some part.

I guess Bonus HP, Natural Armor, Str/Dex Adj and Bonus Tricks are not cumulative, but replace the previous one?
That means if i am Level 6, that wolf would have 6 HD (2+4) and not 8 (2+2+4)?
Otherwise at 18, my wolf would be 44 HD, and that sounds totally overpowered. (14 sounds a bit weak though on the other hand...)

The special abilites on the other hand are cumulative I guess? So at 6, the animal would have Link, Share Spell, Evasion and Devotian?

Well thanks for sheding some light on all this. I'd prefer to have one animal throughout the campaign for RP reasons, but seems I only gimp myself if I do that.

Blackfang108
2009-08-10, 11:13 AM
I guess Bonus HP, Natural Armor, Str/Dex Adj and Bonus Tricks are not cumulative, but replace the previous one?
That means if i am Level 6, that wolf would have 6 HD (2+4) and not 8 (2+2+4)?

The special abilites on the other hand are cumulative I guess? So at 6, the animal would have Link, Share Spell, Evasion and Devotion?

Yes, on both counts.

Morquard
2009-08-10, 11:30 AM
Ok, I think I finally got it. It doesn't seem that complicated anymore suddenly ;)

And I jsut stumbled about another question though.
Once my animal companion has 8 HD or more, it got a BAB of +6. Does it get an additional attack with +1 like a PC would?
Or does it never ever get more attacks than it says in the "Full Attack" line?

zarakstan
2009-08-10, 11:32 AM
Apes are ridiculously over-powered! I was in a party with one once and it was the melee beast of the party :smallbiggrin:

Kylarra
2009-08-10, 11:38 AM
Ok, I think I finally got it. It doesn't seem that complicated anymore suddenly ;)

And I jsut stumbled about another question though.
Once my animal companion has 8 HD or more, it got a BAB of +6. Does it get an additional attack with +1 like a PC would?
Or does it never ever get more attacks than it says in the "Full Attack" line?Since it is using natural weapons, it won't gain iterative attacks. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#naturalWeapons

Morquard
2009-08-10, 11:40 AM
Gotcha!

Thank you all for putting up with my noob questions, but I feel alot more informed about my little pet now.

Moriato
2009-08-10, 11:55 AM
Once my animal companion has 8 HD or more, it got a BAB of +6. Does it get an additional attack with +1 like a PC would?
Or does it never ever get more attacks than it says in the "Full Attack" line?

Natrual weapons don't get iterative attacks, so no, it does not gain any attacks. It has its full attack routine and that's it. There's some debate on whether or not it should gain feats.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-08-10, 12:02 PM
Gotcha!

Thank you all for putting up with my noob questions, but I feel alot more informed about my little pet now.The Druid is a fairly easy class to build, but a lot of the abilities can be intimidating to a noob(or an experienced player). Some of the stuff you were having issues with is due to the fact that the designers apparently fail basic English. We've all been there. If you think this is bad, wait until you get Wildshape. Your question thread will turn into a 37-page monstrosity where people debate whether Druids turned into bats can see in the dark.

Also, bonus HD grant feats. That's basic. Ignore Moriato

Morquard
2009-08-10, 12:37 PM
Ok you started it!
Wildshape then.. .you're right thats even more confusing :)
(since we start at 4th level its not that far into the future I assume, and I should spend some thoughts on it already)

a) I read different things about Con. I know Str and Dex gets replaced with the animals stats, and I keep Int/wis/cha, so even if i have 8 str/dex and turn into a dire ape i can rip stuff apart. But con... some sources say I keep my druid con, other say i take on the con of the animal.

b) "gear becomes nonfunctional", i assume that counts for both AC and magical bonus of any kind?

c) There's armor for animals I think, but is it worth getting it?

d) "The new form’s Hit Dice can’t exceed the character’s druid level." Does that mean a level 5 druid can't shapeshift into an animal (even if its medium) that has 6+ HD (acording to MM), or only that he then would only have 5 HD? (I assume the former)

e) Turned around, a level 10 druid wildshapes into a wolf (2 HD). Now he got 2 HD himself? (again I guess so)

f) I read somewhere "Don't bother with Str, later you spend the better part of the day as a dragon anyway". I thought Dragons are of the dragon type and not animals or elementals?

g) Last one: I can't speak as an animal... but can I cheat and use my paw to write in the sand? or something similar? knock on wood in morse code or whatever?

Blackfang108
2009-08-10, 12:43 PM
a) I read different things about Con. I know Str and Dex gets replaced with the animals stats, and I keep Int/wis/cha, so even if i have 8 str/dex and turn into a dire ape i can rip stuff apart. But con... some sources say I keep my druid con, other say i take on the con of the animal.

b) "gear becomes nonfunctional", i assume that counts for both AC and magical bonus of any kind?

c) There's armor for animals I think, but is it worth getting it?

d) "The new form’s Hit Dice can’t exceed the character’s druid level." Does that mean a level 5 druid can't shapeshift into an animal (even if its medium) that has 6+ HD (acording to MM), or only that he then would only have 5 HD? (I assume the former)

e) Turned around, a level 10 druid wildshapes into a wolf (2 HD). Now he got 2 HD himself? (again I guess so)

f) I read somewhere "Don't bother with Str, later you spend the better part of the day as a dragon anyway". I thought Dragons are of the dragon type and not animals or elementals?

g) Last one: I can't speak as an animal... but can I cheat and use my paw to write in the sand? or something similar? knock on wood in morse code or whatever?

a.)You keep your current and max HP values. You gain the CON of the Animal for modifier purposes. (Concentrate skill, fort saves, Con Checks.) (At least, I THINK that's how it works)
b.) Yes.
C.) Too dependant on the situation to really give a good answer.
d.)the former.
e.)No, still 10
f.) Most likely they're talking about the Shapechange Spell. Also, Dragon Wild Shape Epic Feat.
g.) Yes, you can still write. Legibility is another issue altogether.

Morquard
2009-08-10, 12:48 PM
Thank you once again Blackfang108.


The part you're confusing is that the level adjustment of -3 is for the bonuses granted by the table. (Note: you can alleviate this penalty by taking the Natural Bond feat CAdv p111)
Ok, I just read up on the feat and it gives +3 to the effective level. So for an ape at level 4, it would let my full levels count.
Would the ape then have 6 HD at 4th level, or would it just gain the Evasion feat? (I don't think we play with CAdv book, will check, but I'm curious.)

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-08-10, 12:52 PM
Ok you started it!
Wildshape then.. .you're right thats even more confusing :)
(since we start at 4th level its not that far into the future I assume, and I should spend some thoughts on it already)Yes, you should think about it now, because Wildshape determines your stats. Step by step, then.
a) I read different things about Con. I know Str and Dex gets replaced with the animals stats, and I keep Int/wis/cha, so even if i have 8 str/dex and turn into a dire ape i can rip stuff apart. But con... some sources say I keep my druid con, other say i take on the con of the animal. You keep your same HP but take the Con of the animal. Yes, that's confusing and stupid, but that is the case. Your HP max is in no way changed by Wildshaping.
b) "gear becomes nonfunctional", i assume that counts for both AC and magical bonus of any kind?Yes. All items you're wearing(other than ones with Wilding Clasps and Wild Armor) stop working. However, you can equip gear after Wildshaping if you have an ally or hands, and the gear will work normally. I recommend a Periapt of Wisdom and Cloak of Resistance initially, and a Monk's Belt ASAP(Magic items resize to fit their wearer, so you can have a small snake or a Huge Bear wearing your belt). Keep in mind that an Amulet of Health or similar will continue to boost your HP even though it technically doesn't boost your Con as long as you have it equipped when you shift. It's the only item you want to be wearing when you do.
c) There's armor for animals I think, but is it worth getting it?Only if you have a single form, or a small handful of ones you use. It's 2x cost IIRC, and you'd need a new suit for each form you take. Not worth it except for the most basic Light armor
d) "The new form’s Hit Dice can’t exceed the character’s druid level." Does that mean a level 5 druid can't shapeshift into an animal (even if its medium) that has 6+ HD (acording to MM), or only that he then would only have 5 HD? (I assume the former)Correct. You retain your HD whenever you Wildshape, it's just used to determine what you can turn into.
e) Turned around, a level 10 druid wildshapes into a wolf (2 HD). Now he got 2 HD himself? (again I guess so)Incorrect. You retain your HD, all the monster's HD does is check to see if you can turn into it.
f) I read somewhere "Don't bother with Str, later you spend the better part of the day as a dragon anyway". I thought Dragons are of the dragon type and not animals or elementals?Correct, not sure where you read that, but unless you take the MoMF PrC you can't turn into Dragons. Don't boost Str anyways, you'll spend all day as a Bear after level 6.:smallwink:
g) Last one: I can't speak as an animal... but can I cheat and use my paw to write in the sand? or something similar? knock on wood in morse code or whatever?Yep. I like finding a reliable method of telepathy to open up Mindsight, and just for the clarity, but you can definitely write on the ground and such, or use Drow Sign Language if you're an Ape. I prefer Leopards, personally, but that's due to a love of Pounce more than balance issues.

Blackfang108
2009-08-10, 12:53 PM
There's some debate on whether or not it should gain feats.

Quoth the SRD:


An animal companion gains additional skill points and feats for bonus HD as normal for advancing a monster’s Hit Dice.

Every three HD, the monster gains feats.

So, where's this debate coming from?

Moriato
2009-08-10, 01:39 PM
Quoth the SRD:



Every three HD, the monster gains feats.

So, where's this debate coming from?

Oh, I agree, just a lot of the people I've played with seem to have problems with animals gaining feats. I agree there's no reason they shouldn't, but some people just don't get it.

Kylarra
2009-08-10, 01:46 PM
Thank you once again Blackfang108.


Ok, I just read up on the feat and it gives +3 to the effective level. So for an ape at level 4, it would let my full levels count.
Would the ape then have 6 HD at 4th level, or would it just gain the Evasion feat? (I don't think we play with CAdv book, will check, but I'm curious.)It would have 6 hd (4+2 bonus) as well as gaining the evasion feat.

Moriato
2009-08-10, 01:48 PM
It should also be noted that due to errata, you retain your type and suptype when wildshaping. So you aren't subject to animal-only spells while wildshaped

Blackfang108
2009-08-10, 02:52 PM
It should also be noted that due to errata, you retain your type and suptype when wildshaping. So you aren't subject to animal-only spells while wildshaped

And you're still subject to Humanoid-only spells while wildshaped.

Assuming you're playing a humanoid race.

Mando Knight
2009-08-10, 02:58 PM
It should also be noted that due to errata, you retain your type and suptype when wildshaping. So you aren't subject to animal-only spells while wildshaped

However, to make it useful to shift into a shark, you do gain the Aquatic subtype if the animal has it.

Eldariel
2009-08-10, 04:04 PM
Wildshape gives you the following:
-Physical Stats (Str, Dex, Con)
-Size
-Natural Weapons
-Natural Armor
-Aquatic Subtype (obviously only if you shift into something with it)
-Extraordinary Special Attacks (Pounce, Rake, Poison, Improved Grab, Trample, etc. - All Ex-abilities from the Special Attacks-bar)
-Movement Speed & Modes
-+10 to any Disguise-checks to appear as creature of this new form (instead of a Wildshaped Druid)
-Ability to communicate with other animals of his kind

Wildshape retains your original:
-Class-derived abilities
-HP (though your Con may change, you still retain your original HP)
-Hit Dice, Base Attack Bonus, Base Saves (though Fort & Reflex-save stat modifiers may change with your new Dex & Con), Feats & Skills
-Spellcasting (though you need to be able to speak and make gestures to use it - Natural Spell solves this)
-Type, subtype, special qualities, spell-like abilities and supernatural abilities of its original form
-Mental Stats (Int, Wis, Cha)

Wildshape causes you to lose your original:
-Extraordinary special attacks derived from race (but not those derived from class)
-Natural weapons, natural armor and movement modes
-Size (though it may of course remain the same if you change into a creature of equivalent size)
-Ability to speak
-Gear (they meld into your new form unless a magical ability such as Wild-enhancement on an Armor, or an item named Wilding Clasp is used to bypass this; by RAW you may just put on perfectly functional gear in your new form though)
-Physical stats (obviously, 'cause you get new ones from Wildshape)


That should be rather comprehensive.

Morquard
2009-08-10, 11:44 PM
Yes, it is, thank you Eldariel!

One last thing is the saves. I've obviously have pretty crappy Fort and Reflex safes, while Will is good.
The base saves stay the same and Fort and Reflex get the Con and Dex bonus from the animal form, instead my own? Will obviously stays the same since I keep my wisdom.

I took 10/10/14 for str/dex/con (turns into 10/12/12 after elf adjustment). I don't wanna be completely fragile in humanoid shape, and not get overloaded too easy either by just having 8 str. Hmm... a thought, can I make my animal companion (who will usually have twice the strenght that I do) to carry part of my equipment, by handing a bag to him/hanging it over his back? (by default or needs a trick)

Ack... that leads my to tricks. Int 2 animals can learn 6 by default right. +1 bonus trick for being a companion. One's attack which it does already know. So 6 more. Do I really have to spend months to teach my companion these tricks, or as an animal companion that goes faster? (and which should I train?)

And when I start, I don't stop asking stupid questions it seems, lol.
Handle Animal is for training pets and all this, can I basicly have more animals following me than just the Animal Companion? They'd not be companions of course and require Handle Animal checks more often I guess, but could I have a pack of dire wolves follow me around for example (if i raised them from scratch)?

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-08-10, 11:54 PM
Yes, it is, thank you Eldariel!

One last thing is the saves. I've obviously have pretty crappy Fort and Reflex safes, while Will is good.
The base saves stay the same and Fort and Reflex get the Con and Dex bonus from the animal form, instead my own? Will obviously stays the same since I keep my wisdom.? Your Fort is good progresion. Ref is the only save that should be bad. And yes, you're right about the stats.
I took 10/10/14 for str/dex/con (turns into 10/12/12 after elf adjustment). I don't wanna be completely fragile in humanoid shape, and not get overloaded too easy either by just having 8 str. Hmm... a thought, can I make my animal companion (who will usually have twice the strenght that I do) to carry part of my equipment, by handing a bag to him/hanging it over his back? (by default or needs a trick)Yes, your AC can carry gear for you, and IIRC there's no need for a trick.

Why the 10 Dex? Your AC will probably be pretty low until you can Wildshape due to the poor armor choices. You want every point of Con you can get.
Ack... that leads my to tricks. Int 2 animals can learn 6 by default right. +1 bonus trick for being a companion. One's attack which it does already know. So 6 more. Do I really have to spend months to teach my companion these tricks, or as an animal companion that goes faster? (and which should I train?)Teach it the ones you expect to use in combat. The out-of-combat tricks you can Push the AC into. And it will take a while to train, which is why you are glad to be starting at a level where you "got it done already". And 6 weeks isn't too long.
Handle Animal is for training pets and all this, can I basicly have more animals following me than just the Animal Companion? They'd not be companions of course and require Handle Animal checks more often I guess, but could I have a pack of dire wolves follow me around for example (if i raised them from scratch)?Yes, but remember that while there is a WBL mechanic, there's no "Pet by level". Your access to pets would be wholly dependent on your DM, and most available wouldn't be worth it anyways. After all, you already take 2 turns a round, do you really need more rolls? . And while Handle Animal does work for domestication, you'd still need to capture them and devote the time and effort to training.

Morquard
2009-08-11, 01:30 AM
? Your Fort is good progresion. Ref is the only save that should be bad. And yes, you're right about the stats. Yes, your AC can carry gear for you, and IIRC there's no need for a trick.
You're of course right. Fort isn't as crappy as Ref, but still worse than Will. since my Con is lower. I'm just level 4, so 2 (ref), 5 Fort, 8 Will seems like alot of difference, later those 3 don't really matter anymore.



Why the 10 Dex? Your AC will probably be pretty low until you can Wildshape due to the poor armor choices. You want every point of Con you can get.
So is your point here: "Why bother with 10 Dex anyway, leave it at 8, your AC is gonna suck no matter what" or "Your AC is so low you need every Dex, take 12 or 14"?
We're using 32 point buy, so I took 10/10/14/14/18/8 (yeah I know 14 int isn't necessary, but I like skillpoints ;) if I drop 2 dex and 2 int i could get 16 con. Or str. if my AC can carry stuff, str isn't that important anymore, so I might just do that)


Teach it the ones you expect to use in combat. The out-of-combat tricks you can Push the AC into. And it will take a while to train, which is why you are glad to be starting at a level where you "got it done already". And 6 weeks isn't too long.
Ok. So Attack (2x to attack everything), Down, Stay. Defend and Guard sound useful too. Thats 6. Hm... last one. Come? Heel?


Yes, but remember that while there is a WBL mechanic, there's no "Pet by level". Your access to pets would be wholly dependent on your DM, and most available wouldn't be worth it anyways. After all, you already take 2 turns a round, do you really need more rolls? . And while Handle Animal does work for domestication, you'd still need to capture them and devote the time and effort to training.
Yeah I don't really plan on doing it I was just curious if you could build an army, if the DM allows it.
And I guess I really have enough on my hands already, rolling for myself, my animal companion, and I guess if I want to push it for 1d4+1 Nature Ally's summons :)

Navigator
2009-08-11, 05:07 AM
...extra stat every 4 levels...

Bonus HD

Extra eight-sided (d8) Hit Dice, each of which gains a Constitution modifier, as normal. Remember that extra Hit Dice improve the animal companion’s base attack and base save bonuses. An animal companion’s base attack bonus is the same as that of a druid of a level equal to the animal’s HD. An animal companion has good Fortitude and Reflex saves (treat it as a character whose level equals the animal’s HD). An animal companion gains additional skill points and feats for bonus HD as normal for advancing a monster’s Hit Dice.
As far as RAW is concerned, I don't think you actually get the extra stat point. Everything except the extra stat point is mentioned, which is what makes me believe the companions don't get it.

On the other hand, you could read the first line, "Extra eight-sided (d8) Hit Dice, each of which gains a Constitution modifier, as normal". But, I think that would be taken out of context if interpreted to mean everything is normal, as opposed to only hit points.

Eldariel
2009-08-11, 08:25 AM
As far as RAW is concerned, I don't think you actually get the extra stat point. Everything except the extra stat point is mentioned, which is what makes me believe the companions don't get it.

On the other hand, you could read the first line, "Extra eight-sided (d8) Hit Dice, each of which gains a Constitution modifier, as normal". But, I think that would be taken out of context if interpreted to mean everything is normal, as opposed to only hit points.

That's a reminder text; I wouldn't put too much weight on it. For example, Dire Animals have good Will-save progression and yet that omits to mention that some animals get good Will-saves from HD.

Though of course, as the creature's stats are already improving, I could see the ruling that Animal Companion doesn't get additional points from the level-ups.

Navigator
2009-08-11, 10:09 AM
Well, I wasn't expecting that at all. For some reason (despite it appealing to my common sense), I'm having a hard time dismissing it as reminder text. Evidently, I'm not the only one.

There is a tool called Animal Companion Forge that can be downloaded here (http://www.nzcomputers.net/heroforge/default35.asp). Right or wrong, the author of the tool had a view similar to mine about the extra stat bumps.

Regardless, if the OP wants a neat tool that will allow him to circumvent all the math to advance hit dice, this really is a great thing (it'll even do Arcane Hierophant stuffs!).

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-08-11, 11:45 AM
So is your point here: "Why bother with 10 Dex anyway, leave it at 8, your AC is gonna suck no matter what" or "Your AC is so low you need every Dex, take 12 or 14"?The first one. Assume that any enemy that enters melee with you when you aren't Wildshaped is going to hurt you, bad. +1 AC isn't going to help much.
We're using 32 point buy, so I took 10/10/14/14/18/8 (yeah I know 14 int isn't necessary, but I like skillpoints ;) if I drop 2 dex and 2 int i could get 16 con. Or str. if my AC can carry stuff, str isn't that important anymore, so I might just do that)I'd drop the Dex and Str. Though you could just lose the Dex and snag a Gal-Ralan(Fiend Folio) for a much cheaper Cloak of Resistance that applies a -1 to your Con.
Ok. So Attack (2x to attack everything), Down, Stay. Defend and Guard sound useful too. Thats 6. Hm... last one. Come? Heel? Come+Stay can do the anything that Heel does. Guard isn't really necessary, you can Push him whenever you need him to guard. I'd go Fetch instead. It's situational, but when you've got a dying party member behind enemy lines, you'll be glad you took it.

Cieyrin
2009-08-11, 01:22 PM
You're still going w/ the Ape Animal Companion, right? It may be more beneficial just to have a look at the purposes, than the individual tricks. I'd recommend having him learn the Fighting Purpose, teach him Attack to have him fight any, which covers Attack x2, Down and Stay.

I think it could be argued that to have him schlep your stuff around that he should have the Work trick, especially if you load him down past light load, which he won't deal w/ except by being pushed to do so, then. Getting an appropriate carrying harness for him is also a consideration, as well, as that could boil down to a pack saddle.:smalltongue:

For the last 2, I'd go with Come and Fetch, as Sstoo had mentioned for getting fallen party members and doing everything Heel does.

Them's my 2 coppers. Take as you will.

Morquard
2009-08-11, 03:04 PM
The first one. Assume that any enemy that enters melee with you when you aren't Wildshaped is going to hurt you, bad. +1 AC isn't going to help much. I'd drop the Dex and Str. Though you could just lose the Dex and snag a Gal-Ralan(Fiend Folio) for a much cheaper Cloak of Resistance that applies a -1 to your Con. Come+Stay can do the anything that Heel does. Guard isn't really necessary, you can Push him whenever you need him to guard. I'd go Fetch instead. It's situational, but when you've got a dying party member behind enemy lines, you'll be glad you took it.
Wow the quote function really compresses your text, doesn't it? :)

You make a good point about the +1 AC not doing anything good if i'm not wildshaped. Maybe I shouldn't bother with Hide armor and just take Leather either, so I keep my 30 ft speed and can run away faster :)
We're not using Fiend Folio, so I don't think I can take that cloak :)

Getting Fetch is a good idea actually. When I think Fetch i think about the doggy fetch games, and didn't think that was useful. But that is really a good reason to get fetch.
As for guard. Well, I might be in combat when I need him to guard someone/something, and then pushing might be risky, so i figured i take it.


You're still going w/ the Ape Animal Companion, right? It may be more beneficial just to have a look at the purposes, than the individual tricks. I'd recommend having him learn the Fighting Purpose, teach him Attack to have him fight any, which covers Attack x2, Down and Stay.
Yeah I have those 4 tricks in my list, for that very reason :)
And yep still going with Ape for now, he looks really good.


I think it could be argued that to have him schlep your stuff around that he should have the Work trick, especially if you load him down past light load, which he won't deal w/ except by being pushed to do so, then. Getting an appropriate carrying harness for him is also a consideration, as well, as that could boil down to a pack saddle.:smalltongue:
Well, it could be said that the work trick is for "pulling or pushing a medium or heavy load" and not "carrying it" :)
Besides the ape is a large creature with 21 strength. That means his *light* capacity is 306 lbs... that would be "ughs, squish" for my druid already, so should be more than enough anyway :)

Also I figure if I'm out of combat I can just take 20 on my Handle Animal checks, I get +4 for being an Animal companion, -1 for Cha, so I only need 2 ranks in it to be able to do it. Sure I need to bully my pet for 2 minutes till it does it, but that doesn't sound so bad really. And incombat I don't really need it.

That harness thing I got to look into though.

Hm, can a ape wear normal armor for large people? He's humanoid shape after all.

Edit: And something else... Can I command my pet when wildshaped. I can't talk then after all. (yeah if i wildshape into the same animal type i can even talk better to it, but lets assume I become a wolf or something, can I talk to my ape? I mean tell it to attack something, fetch, guard, push it around to carry the 600 lbs dragonhoard loot?)

Cieyrin
2009-08-11, 11:59 PM
Well, that's when Work comes in handy for shoving around that Dragon Hoard but yes, perhaps waiting on picking it up for a more useful trick is in your best interest, if you're fine w/ sitting around coddling your animal companion to carry an over-sized pack.

For barding, technically the ape is of the animal type, so he'd have to pay the non-humanoid cost for armor, along w/ the large armor multiplier, which puts it at the same cost as horse barding. Also consider that the ape doesn't have any armor proficiencies, so you're gonna have to stick to light armors that have no ACP so he doesn't suffer a penalty to everything he does, which means padded or leather, masterwork studded or a mithral shirt, just based on core armors. I'm sure there are a number of other armors you could pick up from other books but I'll stick with these for your armor choices. Plus, light armor is relatively cheap to make as barding compared to the heavier stuff that would make your ape unhappy to wear, anyways.

Finally, for handling your animal companion, it doesn't state explicitly in the Handle Animal rules that you need to be able to speak to handle an animal, though I'd assume you need some way to communicate an intent to your companion to handle it at all. Generally speaking, I'd probably assess a penalty at least in trying to handle your companion while not in your shape, as waving your wings or flippers at your ape to get it to attack is probably not the most optimal way of getting it to do something it's been trained to, let alone pushing it to do something it doesn't. I might even go so far as to say it's impossible to push a companion while in a non-native form, as Skippy the Ape has enough issues understanding the elf waving and yelling at it to carry that heavy pack, let alone the wolf barking and prancing around it, trying to get it to do the same.

Them's my 2 coppers. Take as you will.

tyckspoon
2009-08-12, 12:04 AM
For the trained tricks, at least, you should be able to teach it to obey the same orders from any of your party members as well (just don't train it to follow commands in Secret Druid Language.) Pushing it would be a problem; it might be easier to just memorize a Speak With Animals or two and explain what you want to it when you need it to do something really unusual.

Morquard
2009-08-12, 01:34 AM
Yeah, I feared that about the armor for an ape really. Would probably be up to the GM to allow it to wear armor for trolls or something large, since it is after all humanoid shaped. But since as you said the armor it can possibly wear is so cheap anyway, it doesn't really matter. Studded and Mithril are a problem, because of you know... druid. Sure it only says the druid can't wear it, but it be somewhat hard to justify that the same druid puts that armor on the animal.
Wearing a padded/leather armor shouldn't bother the animal I guess

Work is a good trick I guess if I have nothing else to teach it, just to be sure it carries stuff. Otherwise who knows, the GM might say "You're in combat, roll push animal to see if the animal just drops your priceless artefacts into the bottomless pit or not" :)

It does state, "Push or pull a medium or heavy load", it doesn't mention "carry". So one could argue that animals don't have to be pushed into carrying any weight they can at all.
You can also say that since you can push and pull up to five times your max load, then five times your light load counts as pulling a light weight, five times your medium load is pulling a medium weight etc. So said ape who can carry 306 lbs as a light load, should be able to pull 1530 lbs without knowing the work trick and/or being pushed into it, and up to 4590 lbs with pushing (assuming you have some sort of waggon for it to pull it with).

Of course thats taking the PHB description overly literal, and I don't know if it really means that. I could see the above paragraph to actually work like that, but I also think carrying a medium load on your back would require a work trick check.

(I hope what I wrote there made sense now, sometimes my thoughts get a bit twisted when I write and it sounds pretty strange)

However, I do have enough skill to push an animal by taking 20 to do literally anything, out of combat that is.
Sure if it knows a trick, I can never fail on having it perform it, even in combat. (7 ranks, -1 cha, +4 animal comp bonus, min of 11 roll on a DC 10)

Hmm, wouldn't want to abandon that dragon hoard because we're running away and I fail my push check though... :)

Talya
2009-08-12, 08:44 AM
As far as RAW is concerned, I don't think you actually get the extra stat point. Everything except the extra stat point is mentioned, which is what makes me believe the companions don't get it.


They are extra hit dice, in every sense of the term. Advancing extra hit dice give certain advantages, these would give all of them unless stated otherwise. What it shows are just examples. I do believe the only thing they explicitly do NOT give are size increases that an animal would get by advancement.

vollmond
2009-08-12, 08:56 AM
So, jumping back to the first page discussion, does the animal companion's damage roll increase at all? IE, my dog does damage of (1d4+1), does that remain the same even as his HD increase? I know he will have more and more STR to apply to damage, just want to know if that's all.

New to this, so I hope my question isn't too obvious :-)

Morquard
2009-08-12, 08:59 AM
The way I understood it yes, it gets more damage from the increased Str, but that's it. Gets higher BAB from the increased HD as well.

Other than that, I don't think so, no

Kaiyanwang
2009-08-12, 09:00 AM
Since scaling druid levels you increase the Str bonus of the dog, your BASE damage will raise a little bit.

This, and remember that you will share your buffs with your companion, augmenting his (and yours) combat ability way too well.

Cieyrin
2009-08-12, 02:20 PM
Yeah, I feared that about the armor for an ape really. Would probably be up to the GM to allow it to wear armor for trolls or something large, since it is after all humanoid shaped. But since as you said the armor it can possibly wear is so cheap anyway, it doesn't really matter. Studded and Mithril are a problem, because of you know... druid. Sure it only says the druid can't wear it, but it be somewhat hard to justify that the same druid puts that armor on the animal.
Wearing a padded/leather armor shouldn't bother the animal I guess

Work is a good trick I guess if I have nothing else to teach it, just to be sure it carries stuff. Otherwise who knows, the GM might say "You're in combat, roll push animal to see if the animal just drops your priceless artifacts into the bottomless pit or not" :)

It does state, "Push or pull a medium or heavy load", it doesn't mention "carry". So one could argue that animals don't have to be pushed into carrying any weight they can at all.
You can also say that since you can push and pull up to five times your max load, then five times your light load counts as pulling a light weight, five times your medium load is pulling a medium weight etc. So said ape who can carry 306 lbs as a light load, should be able to pull 1530 lbs without knowing the work trick and/or being pushed into it, and up to 4590 lbs with pushing (assuming you have some sort of waggon for it to pull it with).

Of course thats taking the PHB description overly literal, and I don't know if it really means that. I could see the above paragraph to actually work like that, but I also think carrying a medium load on your back would require a work trick check.

(I hope what I wrote there made sense now, sometimes my thoughts get a bit twisted when I write and it sounds pretty strange)

However, I do have enough skill to push an animal by taking 20 to do literally anything, out of combat that is.
Sure if it knows a trick, I can never fail on having it perform it, even in combat. (7 ranks, -1 cha, +4 animal comp bonus, min of 11 roll on a DC 10)

Hmm, wouldn't want to abandon that dragon hoard because we're running away and I fail my push check though... :)

Well, let's step through all of these, now, shall we?

For armor concerns, your animal companion is just that, an animal. S/he didn't take any vows against wearing metal or any of that lot you had to, so s/he can wear what they like, though probably w/ nonproficiency penalties, as necessary.

For various loads, yeah, they don't quite work like that, as that's a bit complicated. Up to your heavy load, you can lift it off the ground and move with it. Beyond that, you can stagger around with a load of twice your max load off the ground at 5' per round and no Dex and push or pull 5 times your max.

The way Work is worded and how animals generally don't have opposable thumbs, what they're thinking is that most critters would be pushing or pulling beyond their light load along the ground, regardless. They're thinking along the lines of horses pulling carts and that sort of thing.

Finally, also consider that animals that are hurt add +2 to the Handle Animal check, so once Skippy gets cut by the mean old orc, he's gonna be a little more preoccupied with ripping the orcy to pieces than listening to you, so it's not exactly a sure thing till you hit DC 12, so one more bonus point (not that it really matters, considering you only fail on a 1 at this point but yeah...). The thing is it applying to pushing as well, as the same penalty applies to pushing, so you'll be going after DC 27, not 25, which is admittedly a bit more difficult for you w/ a +10 modifier.

Them's my 2 coppers. Take as you will.

Morquard
2009-08-12, 03:40 PM
Thank you once again Cieyrin.

I know according to rules and so the animal has no problem wearing plate armor. except it won't do damage then anymore, but thats a different thing. But I as druid, who has sword an oath to not do it, would have to order that, and that just feels wrong, for RP reasons if nothing else :)

Well there's the thing for four legged animals called a pack saddle, which is pretty miuch "load it to its max capacity and the animal carries the stuff". Work trick however specifically mentiones pulling and pushing.
So lets take an animal with 100(light), 200(med) and 300 (heavy) limits, that does NOT know the work truck.
When I want it to carry (pack saddle, some sort of backpack, whatever works for the animal) 50 lbs, do I have to make a handle animal DC 25 check to push it?
When its 250, do I have to push it? (If I were GM I would say yes. rules are a bit unclear here though)
When I want it to pull a waggon, total weight 400 lbs (which would be below 100*5. I would say its a "light pulling weight" and no check is required)?
From 500 upwards, according to teh trick description I have to always make a skill check.

(maybe i'm making this overly complicated here, and its just "you want it to carry anything, then you roll a skillcheck, but then why does it mention medium and heavy weight in the first place)

Aye, you're right with the damage of course. But we start at level 4, so 7 is the highest i can take. BUT technically ordering my animal companion to do a trick it knows is a free action. So even if in combat I fail teh check with a 1, i can just tell it again. and again. and again, till I don't roll a 1 :)
(I'll of course get that skillpoint next levelup :) )

Also I never saw anywhere that I can't take 20 on Handle Animal checks (except for rearing animals), so out of combat pushing shouldn't be a problem at all, since with +10 that be higher than the DC 27 too. Makes sense too since otherwise I would just reroll the damn dice till I get that 17+, there's no penalty for failing, except that the animal looks at me confused and does nothing.

Cieyrin
2009-08-12, 11:42 PM
I'd assume once you made the check for an action, such as making it carry your bag, you don't have to worry about making the check until you make him stop for a while.

Also, again, the push/pull weight is multiplying the heavy weight only, so it's max weight in this case is 1500 pounds, not 500. Another thing is the difference w/ the encumbrance rules, as they naturally assume that you're a bipedal humanoid, not an animal, so the use in the Work trick of medium and heavy pull weights refers to your medium and heavy carry weights.

I'll also concede the point about needing Work to carry a light weight, since it's not mentioned. I was just figuring you'd need it, given most animals don't commonly have pack harnesses and I assume that pack animals have the heavy work purpose and thus the work trick, which probably carries along w/ it how to handle a pack harness.

So in your example, you wouldn't need to make a check up to 100 pounds of weight. From 101 to their max pull weight of 1500 pounds, without the Work trick, you'd have to push it at DC 25, 27 if injured.

I rather think that you could only handle an animal once per round, even if you can do it as a free action. There is a limit to how much free action yelling you can do during a turn, as the free action talk says a reasonable amount of talking, not making an extended speech about the benefits of the free market system in the middle of combat. It's a rather moot point, as the likelihood of failure with your Handle check mod is 5% only when your critter is hurt, so nothing to really worry about.

Finally, for the take 20 bit, yes, you can take 20, provided you're fine w/ sitting there a minute to get Skippy to do what you want and that you have no distractions or threats breathing down your neck while you do so, so taking that 20 to push him while the savage goblin hordes are running amuck in the countryside probably isn't gonna fly.

With that in mind, and that you want the ape to carry your stuff around, it's probably quicker for all involved if he had Work so that he can pick up your stuff regardless of the weight just by taking 10 on your Handle check, which doesn't take extra time like taking 20 will and you're less likely to have to worry about the distractions and threats clause that disallows both.

Them's my 2 coppers. Take as you will.

Morquard
2009-08-13, 01:45 AM
Yes, I think I pretty much agree with everything you said. It's easier if you have the work feat because any discussions about "Do I have to push it now or not" are moot then, its simply "its below max weight, so it carries it. the end" :) Thats the reason why I took the trick after all then.

You're right, despite it being a free action, as a GM I wouldn't allow countless handle animal checks either. Maybe one retry though, if you roll a 1 twice, you deserve it that the companion refuses :)

The Take 20 only really is an option if you're not in such a hurry that waiting 2 minutes would wreck havoc to the planet :) I mean telling it to guard the camp or something before you go to sleep, you can certainly afford that, because if not, you better shouldn't be going to sleep in the first place.
With a goblin army chasing you... that might count as threatened anyway and take 20 isn't an option.

And just to explain where I was getting at with the 500 lbs. Yeah I know its not mentioned anywhere like that. It says 100, 200, 300 are you limits, and the max pull weight is 1500 (heavy*5)
I interpret "light" as "doesn't bother me to carry and I probably don't really notice it". Medium would be "Ok, I notice it, and it slows me down some, but I still have no real problem doing it.", and heavy being "Ugh, thats heavy, I'll be sore this evening" :)
Now there are obviously differnet pull weights too.
So the obvious way to scale them would be "light pulling weight (light*5)" as in "doesn't really bother me to pull that all day", medium and last heavy.
Take a little kid for example. Sure you can carry her on your arm, but eventually it will get heavy and it feels your arm is falling off :) But sit that kid on one of those bobby cars and you can pull her all day long.
Or I can push around a shopping cart with 7-8 boxes of water (that be roughly 100 liters) pretty easily (do it sometimes, so I know I can :). I probably couldn't do it all day, but its not really that hard. However I don't think I could lift them above my head and stagger around with them even (carrying 2 of these boxes at once is pretty heavy already). So clearly they're above twice my max load, but still well within my "medium pulling weight" :)

But yeah, I guess all that is Rule 0 territory, and not really covered by the rules. Just makes more sense to me as treating "pull an empty cart weighting 20 lbs" and "pull a fully loaded cart weighting 1500 lbs" as exactly the same thing.

Ok this post got longer again than I wanted... bah. Anyway I think we agree on most stuff if not all actually, and I think I understnad most of the important things about Animal Companions and Wildshape now. Thank you guys.