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Arakune
2009-08-10, 09:44 AM
So my friend made an alternate form with 26 ranks and costing 52 points, being a PL 10 char.

Is that legal? What your thoughts about this kind of abuse(?) ?

The Rose Dragon
2009-08-10, 09:46 AM
An alternate form with 26 ranks... Costing 52 power points.

So he gets 5 power points per 2 spent.

Check for abuse of the rules. For example, applications of flaws where they really should be drawbacks where Containers are involved.

Arakune
2009-08-10, 09:56 AM
An alternate form with 26 ranks... Costing 52 power points.

So he gets 5 power points per 2 spent.

Check for abuse of the rules. For example, applications of flaws where they really should be drawbacks where Containers are involved.

It IS abuse, but so far the only flaw it have is the action: free->move->standard->full-round, with a net total of -3 to the cost of the original power.

The Rose Dragon
2009-08-10, 10:00 AM
Yeah, that will do it.

Containers aren't supposed to have the Action flaw, they are supposed to have the Action drawback. I would check the Official Rules Questions thread on ATT for confirmation.

So, basically, he gets 26 ranks for 127 power points, not 52.

hewhosaysfish
2009-08-10, 12:03 PM
I though in M&M, you couldn't have more ranks in something than your PL?

Arakune
2009-08-10, 12:05 PM
I though in M&M, you couldn't have more ranks in something than your PL?

Only in things that allow some kind of saving throw (damage is a kind of saving throw, btw).

Or with something that explicitly says you can't have.

The Rose Dragon
2009-08-10, 12:08 PM
I though in M&M, you couldn't have more ranks in something than your PL?

1st Edition rules. In 2nd Edition, PL limits is the only thing that limits your ranks.

That, or you could never have Immunity (Fortitude) in a normal game, since it takes 30 ranks.

Runeclaw
2009-08-11, 06:59 PM
M&M 2 is a great game, but its not at all balanced. It absolutely requires a GM who will closely review characters and say "no" to things they think are overpowered, even if they are completely legit within the rules.

Arakune
2009-08-11, 07:04 PM
M&M 2 is a great game, but its not at all balanced. It absolutely requires a GM who will closely review characters and say "no" to things they think are overpowered, even if they are completely legit within the rules.

Yes. Good to know I'm not the only one who thinks that :smallamused:.

I'm just annoyed to thoso who says "I want to make a realistic campaign" at PL 10 and doesn't want to let the players explore some of the inherent absurdity.

A DC/MARVEL super-heroish campaign? Sure why not.

GoatToucher
2009-08-11, 07:11 PM
M&M 2 is a great game, but its not at all balanced. It absolutely requires a GM who will closely review characters and say "no" to things they think are overpowered, even if they are completely legit within the rules.

In my opinion, every game should be like this. The game designers give you the framework. The DM decides what is overpowered or exploitative of the rules and rules accordingly. The unbreakable game being an impossibility, M&M doesn't try, and instead gives us a solid core rules set, and relies on your judgment to keep the PC power level in check.

Haven
2009-08-11, 07:17 PM
M&M 2 is a great game, but its not at all balanced. It absolutely requires a GM who will closely review characters and say "no" to things they think are overpowered, even if they are completely legit within the rules.

I don't think this is a bad thing though: it's designed for flexibility, not balance, and it does an AMAZING job of the former--you can make just about anything in Mutants & Masterminds. Further, thanks to PL limits, it doesn't do too bad of a job at balance either.

Sure, it's trivial to break the game, (by making your Blasts free actions, buying Improved Critical 19 times, etc.), but it's also usually very blatant that you're doing so. Encouraging the GM to take a more active role in disallowing cheese (which I like to think happens in any game, but that's not what you'd think of D&D looking at most of the threads on this board :p ) is a great idea, and I think it helps prepare the GM to make effective use of Fiat (which relies on the same "just tell the players no" principle, in exchange for giving them a Hero Point, aka "just tell the players very yes").

That said, I'm pretty sure Rose Dragon is right that it's supposed to be a Drawback and not a flaw, since it basically works similar to Alternate Power.

Arakune
2009-08-11, 07:21 PM
In my opinion the book should give more tips or better guidelines as to how to make the char, either to be more internaly consistent or at least to help the GMs how to proceed in some cases.

The GM thinking the char is overpowered is relative to each one and some better ground rules doesn't hurt.

NPCMook
2009-08-11, 08:35 PM
In my opinion the book should give more tips or better guidelines as to how to make the char, either to be more internaly consistent or at least to help the GMs how to proceed in some cases.

The GM thinking the char is overpowered is relative to each one and some better ground rules doesn't hurt.

With great power comes, huge weakness button for GM to press. Superman was OP, by M&M standards, but he was easy to beat since his weakness was so openly known.

GoatToucher
2009-08-11, 09:07 PM
The GM thinking the char is overpowered is relative to each one and some better ground rules doesn't hurt.

That's the point. The game (after giving some examples of what archetypal characters should look like) leaves it to the individual GM to determine what is and is not too much power for the campaign.

Some people don't like that. They want something cut and dried saying what is and is not kosher. I don't. Since the system makes no effort whatsoever to do this, there are no loopholes to shoot, no weaknesses in the system to manipulate, because the arbiter of what is and is not allowable in any given game is the individual game master.

Char gen gives the player a tremendous amount of freedom to make the character he wants, but the game makes it clear that the be-all end-all of the rules is left to the GM's discretion. You work with the GM to get the best character for the game, not against him to work out a back door exploit to boost your own power unduly.

Arakune
2009-08-11, 10:30 PM
Char gen gives the player a tremendous amount of freedom to make the character he wants, but the game makes it clear that the be-all end-all of the rules is left to the GM's discretion. You work with the GM to get the best character for the game, not against him to work out a back door exploit to boost your own power unduly.

That's... what most games do anyway. The rule 0 is normaly one of the first ones to be mentioned in a lot of RPG books.

The problem is that some combinations are only clear to some people after trial and error, resulting in either laughts or a massive headche to the players (GM included).

Better ground rules, better wording to some important exceptions to the normal rules and better guidelines of how to determine a game breaker from just a more optimized character is what I suggested.

The system does a good job if you don't think about it too much, but only a little bit more of though and some ambiguous wording is enough to create a huge gap in game play.

Green Bean
2009-08-12, 09:42 AM
With great power comes, huge weakness button for GM to press. Superman was OP, by M&M standards, but he was easy to beat since his weakness was so openly known.

Pfft, Superman is your standard-issue Paragon, with enough points in Drawbacks to pick up a bit of Super-Speed. It's the guys like Metamorpho and Green Lantern GMs have to watch out four (Batman, too, if he picked up the Gadgets power).

Personally, my favorite part of the system is the ease with which you can make a decent character. Having inadvertently gimped my first few DnD characters, I like that as long as you hit your PL caps, you'll be able to contribute. I find that the book warns you about most of the overpowered stuff, like Summon or Transform. Sure, it isn't perfect, but I find the freedom is worth a bit of GM diligence.