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Charity
2009-08-10, 11:34 AM
Some of you may be aware that there has been a bit of a buzz around what the next campaign setting is going to be for 4e.

The front runner (Dragonlance) has been pretty much ruled out by Cam Banks (http://www.amazon.com/Cam-Banks/e/B001JS9R2E/ref=ntt_athr_dp_pel_1) from Margaret Weis Productions here (http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/260218-d-d-4th-edition-campaign-announcement-time-date-2.html#post4884085)

This leaves the floor wide open... and makes me pretty happy, I was not all that fond of Dragonlance.

Fax Celestis
2009-08-10, 11:38 AM
/me still kinda hopes for Dark Sun.

Asbestos
2009-08-10, 11:38 AM
This only makes me more sure that its going to be Dark Sun.

Blackfang108
2009-08-10, 11:42 AM
Some of you may be aware that there has been a bit of a buzz around what the next campaign setting is going to be for 4e.

The front runner (Dragonlance) has been pretty much ruled out by Cam Banks (http://www.amazon.com/Cam-Banks/e/B001JS9R2E/ref=ntt_athr_dp_pel_1) from Margaret Weis Productions here (http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/260218-d-d-4th-edition-campaign-announcement-time-date-2.html#post4884085)

This leaves the floor wide open... and makes me pretty happy, I was not all that fond of Dragonlance.

Thank sweet Entropy. Dragonlance got a 3.5 update. Let's have something that didn't have the 3.x treatment. Or Ghostwalk.

Charity
2009-08-10, 12:05 PM
/me still kinda hopes for Dark Sun.

I'm ambivalent all in all. I've heard a lot of the Dark Sun aficionados are worried WotC will kill the the Dark atmos of the original... I, personaly would love to see what WotC come up with... but I fear I'd hate all the rage it stirred up.

Fax Celestis
2009-08-10, 12:07 PM
I'm ambivalent all in all. I've heard a lot of the Dark Sun aficionados are worried WotC will kill the the Dark atmos of the original... I would love to see what WotC come up with... but I fear I'd hate all the rage it stirred up.

Hence the 'kinda'. Really, I think WotC would be best served with a new setting. It worked well for Eberron and 3.5.

RTGoodman
2009-08-10, 12:10 PM
I've looked into it quite a bit in the last couple of weeks, and I still think it's going to be Dark Sun. Whether it gets a FR-style big change or an Eberron-style simple update, I'm not sure about, but I think it WILL be the setting for next year. Googling "Dark Sun 2010" turns up a lot of discussion with a lot of (admittedly circumstantial) evidence that it's the most likely setting.


Hence the 'kinda'. Really, I think WotC would be best served with a new setting. It worked well for Eberron and 3.5.

I'd like to see a new setting, too (maybe The Giant's?), but I think they've pretty much confirmed 2010 will be a "familiar" setting. So yeah, it could be a setting from thing else that hasn't been an official D&D setting (M:tG's Dominaria, etc.), but I think it'll be another update.

FoE
2009-08-10, 12:11 PM
*Does backflips*

Oh frabjous day! Calloo! Callay!

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-08-10, 12:14 PM
Good option: Ravenloft. 4.x could use a setting that isn't heroic fantasy. Likely, no, but it would be good for the system IMHO.

Likely option: Spelljammer. Different from the current settings, high-powered, and run by complete awesome, it fits perfectly with the current 4.x design.

hamishspence
2009-08-10, 12:14 PM
Just as long as we still get Draconomicon: Metallic Dragons.

And I'm told a few draconians were going to be in that book- what's likely to happen now?

Blackfang108
2009-08-10, 12:38 PM
Just as long as we still get Draconomicon: Metallic Dragons.

And I'm told a few draconians were going to be in that book- what's likely to happen now?

They're still going to be there.

Jack_Banzai
2009-08-10, 12:41 PM
Likely option: Spelljammer. Different from the current settings, high-powered, and run by complete awesome, it fits perfectly with the current 4.x design.

Oh god, that would be wonderful. I do love me some Spelljammer. Made my own homebrew Spelljammer rules for 3.0. What a campaign. It's bad enough running into mind flayers in a dungeon setting but when you're being pursued by the Illithid Secret Service across the cosmos... yeah. Yum.

jmbrown
2009-08-10, 12:44 PM
Among the evidence that it's Dark Sun;

*The Prism Pentad series was reprinted after being out of print for 10+ years.

*Dark Sun is the only setting (AFAIK) that hasn't had material updated for 4E. Spelljammers and Sigil are mentioned in Manual of the Planes, Strahd von Whatever is statted in Open Grave, monsters once exclusive to Mystara and Al-Qadim were updated, and ogre mages were properly named to oni mage from Oriental Adventures.

*Player's Handbook 3 will detail psionics which were a big part of Dark Sun.

4E is a perfect system for Dark Sun more so than 3.5 because there's fewer powers that ruin the flow of gameplay. Dark Sun is about survival in a harsh wasteland with unpredictable, power magics/psionics being flung around. 4E's points-of-light style of play emulates Dark Sun's setting and skill challenges are a better mechanic for getting from point A to point B in the wastes than simply rolling a bunch of fortitude saves and survival checks.

Hopefully they modify the skill challenges so that the consequences are more dire than "You lose a healing surge." In Dark Sun, dying from dehydration was just as common as being killed by a monster.

AstralFire
2009-08-10, 12:49 PM
I would love Dark Sun or Spelljammer.

Zeful
2009-08-10, 12:50 PM
So Dark Sun is pretty much the medieval version of Fallout? 'Cause that's kinda the vibe I'm getting jimbrown.

RTGoodman
2009-08-10, 12:50 PM
*The Prism Pentad series was reprinted after being out of print for 10+ years.

And as someone who has read the first three in the past couple of weeks, let me tell you - they didn't put too much effort into it. Every one of the books, and especially the third, is RIDDLED with typos, misspellings, and whatnot, all of which were glaringly obvious and should have been caught by an editor. For Christ's sake, at some point they were talking about a siege or something, and a sentence started out talking about "the battering rain," which confused the HELL out of me (especially in DS) for a minute before I realized it was supposed to be "the battering RAM."

The third book was so poorly edited that you probably couldn't go a chapter or two without something like that.


*Dark Sun is the only setting (AFAIK) that hasn't had material updated for 4E.

There was an "Ecology of Dark Sun" article back right after 4E debuted, but it was only about 4 pages and just had some plants and whatnot.



*Player's Handbook 3 will detail psionics which were a big part of Dark Sun.

And some part of the ECG mentioned Thri-Kreen as a race, too.

Fax Celestis
2009-08-10, 01:02 PM
And some part of the ECG mentioned Thri-Kreen as a race, too.

IIRC, Thri-Kreen aren't Athasian--they're Faerunian.

RTGoodman
2009-08-10, 01:06 PM
Really? I've NEVER seen anything about them in anything Faerun-related. (Admittedly, I'm no FR expert and most of my knowledge of the setting is the 3E CS and a handful of novels.) To me they've always been one of two iconic DS races, along with Muls.

AstralFire
2009-08-10, 01:07 PM
Thri-Kreen are core. They ended up becoming a major part of Athas and that led to them showing up a bit more in FR.

jmbrown
2009-08-10, 01:08 PM
So Dark Sun is pretty much the medieval version of Fallout? 'Cause that's kinda the vibe I'm getting jimbrown.

To an extent, yes. The world has been ravaged by dark magics, the sun is burning out, pretty much everyone has at least a mundane psionic power, slavery is common, the world is out to get you, there is no water, there is no metal, halflings are cannibals, and contacting or shifting planes is difficult due to a force called "the gray" which traps all dead souls regardless of religion. Additionally the gray keeps gods from accessing Athas (the world of Dark Sun) so priests draw power from elements and druids are far more common than traditional clerics.

Wizards is really pushing the whole primordial and elemental planes of chaos thing so I can imagine those fitting nicely with Dark Sun.

edit: The plane of shadow is also pretty similar to Dark Sun's concept of "the black."

hamishspence
2009-08-10, 01:10 PM
Thri-Kreen are core. They ended up becoming a major part of Athas and that led to them showing up a bit more in FR.

And they're been printed twice in 3.0 and once in 3.5: MM2, Savage Species, Shining South (Faerun book).

DSCrankshaw
2009-08-10, 01:24 PM
I've never played Dark Sun, so someone will have to tell me, but my understanding was that Dark Sun had no divine classes. That could be problematic, as I think one of WotC's goals is for their campaign settings to have a place for all their D&D material.

Altima
2009-08-10, 01:32 PM
I hope it's not Planescape. With the great big planar realignment they did for 4e, I think it'd just be a mess and butcher the setting even more.

Either one of the unloved settings, like Dark Sun, Spelljammer, and Birthright, or another all-new setting would be nice. Though I don't know what else they can do. FR is/was high fantasy, Eberron is magitek fantasy, and so on. Dark Sun sounds nifty, but it leads me to believe that it may be too 'complex' for WotC's new "dumb it down" policy.

On a side note, isn't the Dragonlance setting owned by Weis and company, meaning they could, theoretically, put out a setting whenever they wished?

Chunklets
2009-08-10, 01:47 PM
Mystara ftw! :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

Actually, seeing Isle of Dread &c updated for 4e might be kind of cool, now that I come to think about it...

RTGoodman
2009-08-10, 01:49 PM
Either one of the unloved settings, like Dark Sun, Spelljammer, and Birthright, or another all-new setting would be nice. Though I don't know what else they can do. FR is/was high fantasy, Eberron is magitek fantasy, and so on. Dark Sun sounds nifty, but it leads me to believe that it may be too 'complex' for WotC's new "dumb it down" policy.

Well, Birthright is most likely out - one of the designers said somewhere that there's an "A" in the setting name. I don't think it'll be Spelljammer, either; as someone who's never played it or even looked at it really, it just seems like it's too weird for them to make it the third big setting for the edition.

Right now, with the "news" that DL is out, I see the two big contenders being Dark Sun and Greyhawk. The problem I see with Greyhawk is that, like you say, we've already got generic high fantasy in the form of FR, so it's kind of a rehash of the same thing to people that don't already know the settings. ("Ooh, look - Eberron has magic trains and robots! Dark Sun has psionics and deserts and weird races! Forgotten Realms has all these epic heroes and hordes of gods running around! Greyhawk has... no, wait, it's the same kind of thing as FR.")


On a side note, isn't the Dragonlance setting owned by Weis and company, meaning they could, theoretically, put out a setting whenever they wished?

They didn't own it, as far as I know, they just had the license/permission/whatever from WotC to publish DL stuff in 3.x. WotC revoked the license and took it back sometime last year or the year before, I think, so it's back in WotC's hands now.

Fax Celestis
2009-08-10, 01:52 PM
They didn't own it, as far as I know, they just had the license/permission/whatever from WotC to publish DL stuff in 3.x. WotC revoked the license and took it back sometime last year or the year before, I think, so it's back in WotC's hands now.

They did the same thing with Ravensloft, too, actually.

Matthew
2009-08-10, 01:52 PM
It probably will be Greyhawk, but here is hoping it is Dark Sun or Spelljammer.

AstralFire
2009-08-10, 01:53 PM
Ugh. I'm really hoping it's not Greyhawk. The more I learn about that setting, the less I like it.

Fax Celestis
2009-08-10, 01:54 PM
Ugh. I'm really hoping it's not Greyhawk. The more I learn about that setting, the less I like it.

Greyhawk: it's D&D for "generic".

Starscream
2009-08-10, 01:55 PM
I'd personally love to see either Ravenloft or Spelljammer.

Sir Homeslice
2009-08-10, 01:56 PM
If it's Greyhawk I will personally buy the books and record myself setting fire to them.

Or not. Money's a bit tight these days. Maybe I'll just settle for irrational walls of hatred, vitriolic slander, and eating Subway's in a mockery of the people who eat giant tubs of ice cream after vaguely depressing events.

I'm personally hoping for Dark Sun. It was good stuff way back when.

Kurald Galain
2009-08-10, 01:56 PM
I'm ambivalent all in all. I've heard a lot of the Dark Sun aficionados are worried WotC will kill the the Dark atmos of the original...
I can see that happening. The philosophy of Dark Sun (where you generally suffer and have a lack of everything, including equipment and water) is essentially opposite to the philosophy of 4E (where you wave away any afflictions in a matter of minutes, and never lack food, sleep or anything else).

RTGoodman
2009-08-10, 01:58 PM
Greyhawk: it's D&D for "generic".

Yep - back in college one of my friends was gonna start doing Living Greyhawk, and I was all excited about it. Then I started reading about it and was... pretty disappointed.

The only thing I particularly like from the setting is a handful of the gods, and at least a few of them are so genericized now they're already in 4E. I miss Heironeous and Hextor, and Vecna, and St. Cuthbert most of all, but if they were to come back I'd rather see it as a "Divinities of Greyhawk" Dragon article or something.

AstralFire
2009-08-10, 02:00 PM
Greyhawk: it's D&D for "generic".

In parts, but mostly that it's just... D&D.

I'm an aberration among most D&D fans I know in that I dislike a lot of the D&D standards for the genre - the planar cosmology, dragons, how the gods work, racial relations and the sheer number of them... when I pick up the Monster Manual or read about something from Greyhawk, I go "this would not be out of place in He-Man", and I was never a big He-Man fan, even as well-done as the 2003 revival was.

As I think I've commented, I owe more of my concepts of fantasy to Narnia and Asheron's Call than I do anything with elves or Slaad.

Altima
2009-08-10, 02:01 PM
I can see that happening. The philosophy of Dark Sun (where you generally suffer and have a lack of everything, including equipment and water) is essentially opposite to the philosophy of 4E (where you wave away any afflictions in a matter of minutes, and never lack food, sleep or anything else).

On the other hand, they may do it because it's so different from typical 4e--and include rules that, if people wanted to incorporate into their campaigns, they'd have to purchase said campaign setting even if they don't plan on using the actual Dark Sun setting. I vote we call this hypothetical ruleset the "Suffering" rules. :smalltongue:

Random NPC
2009-08-10, 02:04 PM
I doubt that it will be Dark Sun. For what I remember, the setting is heavily Psionic with other means of powers absent, which means not generic which is not the goal of 4e. So yeah, doubt it's Dark Sun

Now, I really think it will be the Giant's setting. It would be awesome if it is :smallbiggrin:

Kallisti
2009-08-10, 02:13 PM
Much as I would love to see a 4.0 Dark Sun or Spelljammer, I doubt it. Chances are it'll be Greyhawk, which is not a setting I feel needs to plague yet another edition...

jmbrown
2009-08-10, 02:16 PM
I've never played Dark Sun, so someone will have to tell me, but my understanding was that Dark Sun had no divine classes. That could be problematic, as I think one of WotC's goals is for their campaign settings to have a place for all their D&D material.


I doubt that it will be Dark Sun. For what I remember, the setting is heavily Psionic with other means of powers absent, which means not generic which is not the goal of 4e. So yeah, doubt it's Dark Sun

4E removes the need for divine casters to have gods and introduces the primordials as being elemental lords. This fits right in with Dark Sun because gods can't reach Athas.

Martial powers: Work normally
Divine powers: Based on the elements or powered through belief rather than faith
Primal powers: Druids are more common in Dark Sun than clerics. The earth is decayed but nature and the sun are twisted and raw lending awesome power.
Psionic powers: Soon to be introduced in PHBIII
Arcane powers: Athas is a world defiled by magic. Sorcerers and warlocks will likely be more common than wizards.


I can see that happening. The philosophy of Dark Sun (where you generally suffer and have a lack of everything, including equipment and water) is essentially opposite to the philosophy of 4E (where you wave away any afflictions in a matter of minutes, and never lack food, sleep or anything else).

On the contrary. 4E makes disease, afflictions, and poisons more deadly. Because diseases don't deal ability damage, they have a step track which you make a save against every so often Failing a save results in you permanently losing a healing surge until its healed which in 4E is detrimental as that's your sole source of healing. Some diseases outright kill you if you fail twice. Compare this to 3.5's "incubation period" followed by the ability damage and in 3.5 restoration was a "fix-all" for even the deadliest of diseases.

4E can get pretty deadly. Don't let the at-will healing fool you into thinking player's are invincible.

Asbestos
2009-08-10, 02:30 PM
On the contrary. 4E makes disease, afflictions, and poisons more deadly. Because diseases don't deal ability damage, they have a step track which you make a save against every so often Failing a save results in you permanently losing a healing surge until its healed which in 4E is detrimental as that's your sole source of healing. Some diseases outright kill you if you fail twice. Compare this to 3.5's "incubation period" followed by the ability damage and in 3.5 restoration was a "fix-all" for even the deadliest of diseases.

Don't forget that the rituals 'Remove Affliction' and 'Cure Disease' can potentially kill the character they are being used on.

RTGoodman
2009-08-10, 02:31 PM
Arcane powers: Athas is a world defiled by magic. Sorcerers and warlocks will likely be more common than wizards.

Yeah, but there are Wizards in the source material. One thing I'd like to see is how or if the division between Defilers and Preservers would appear. Also, I think it'd be neat for higher-level casters to be able to steal HP or healing surges from allies or creatures in the vicinity to power up spells, like we see in some of the novels.

(Note: I never played anything before 3.x, so I don't know how I worked out in older editions.)


Compare this to 3.5's "incubation period" followed by the ability damage and in 3.5 restoration was a "fix-all" for even the deadliest of diseases.

And don't forget that in 4E, the cure disease ritual can outright kill you if the ritualist flubs the skill check.


EDIT: Oh, those sneaky ninjas...

Asbestos
2009-08-10, 02:36 PM
Everyone that's saying 'Ravenloft'.. have you ever checked out the 'Domains of Dread' articles in Dungeon? Everything about them screams Ravenloft and its in the generic setting. So, I don't think we'll see it as a CS... since its basically already in one.

Yora
2009-08-10, 02:41 PM
I once flipped through the 4e manual of the planes, and it has Raveloft mentioned at one point. I think as a region of the Shadowfell.
It's not named as Ravenloft there, but it's described as a prision for the most evil individuals, who get their own private hells, or something like that.

Though not many have mentioned it, I'd say Planescape is highly unlikely. Those things that make Planescape special are very similar to the not so unique aspects of Eberron.

jmbrown
2009-08-10, 02:43 PM
Everyone that's saying 'Ravenloft'.. have you ever checked out the 'Domains of Dread' articles in Dungeon? Everything about them screams Ravenloft and its in the generic setting. So, I don't think we'll see it as a CS... since its basically already in one.

Ravenloft exists with the "demiplanes of dread" which can easily fit into the shadow so I truly doubt Ravenloft will be the new setting unless they're building up to it through Dragon.

edit:


It's not named as Ravenloft there, but it's described as a prision for the most evil individuals, who get their own private hells, or something like that.

Demiplanes of Dread. It imprisons supremely evil beings and crafts a realm based on their sins or personalities.

Yora
2009-08-10, 02:50 PM
"Demiplane of Dread" - Hasn't that been the official secondary name of Ravenloft?

Well, technically Ravenloft is just a town in the Domain Barovia. Demiplane of Dread would even be more correct for the whole setting.

Blackfang108
2009-08-10, 02:59 PM
The only thing I particularly like from the setting is a handful of the gods, and at least a few of them are so genericized now they're already in 4E. I miss Heironeous and Hextor, and Vecna, and St. Cuthbert most of all, but if they were to come back I'd rather see it as a "Divinities of Greyhawk" Dragon article or something.

*points to 4e DMG/PHB I*

The others aren't in there, but Vecna is. Heck his eye and hand are core artifacts.

jmbrown
2009-08-10, 03:04 PM
"Demiplane of Dread" - Hasn't that been the official secondary name of Ravenloft?

Well, technically Ravenloft is just a town in the Domain Barovia. Demiplane of Dread would even be more correct for the whole setting.

They've always just called it "ravenloft" even though creatures from other settings like Dragonlance and Forgotten realms exist there. Even Vecna has his own piece of land in DoD.


*points to 4e DMG/PHB I*

The others aren't in there, but Vecna is. Heck his eye and hand are core artifacts.

Open Grave. Vecna's a level 35 solo. Strahd, the BBEG of Ravenloft, is a level 20 solo.

Blackfang108
2009-08-10, 03:05 PM
Open Grave. Vecna's a level 35 solo.

His stats, yes, but he's at least mentioned in the PHB, and it think his portfolio (along with the other evil Core gods) is in the DMG.

Kurald Galain
2009-08-10, 03:08 PM
On the contrary. 4E makes disease, afflictions, and poisons more deadly.
Only on paper. The SRD lists several poisons that cripple you on a hit, and likely incapacitate you a minute later as the default onset time; whereas the standard 4E poisons give you a minor penalty on a hit, and take more than a minute to reach the worst effect (which in most cases won't be incapacitating either).



4E can get pretty deadly. Don't let the at-will healing fool you into thinking player's are invincible.
I never said they were. I am, however, saying that all effects (including poison, disease, hunger, and so forth) are very very easy to get rid of, and that this is a conscious design decision on WOTC's part. I'm not even saying that this is a bad thing - after all, not everyone enjoys playing a weakened character.


Don't forget that the rituals 'Remove Affliction' and 'Cure Disease' can potentially kill the character they are being used on.
Again, only on paper. In practice, they will be cast by a high-wisdom character trained in heal and assisted by all other party members (not to mention backed by any number of skill-boosting or reroll powers), which makes it literally impossible to get a zero-or-less check result.

TheEmerged
2009-08-10, 03:31 PM
Personally I've almost always run my own campaign worlds BUT... My bet is Dark Sun. As someone mentioned above, it'd be a perfect excuse to add the micromanagement... excuse me, survival rules into 4e. The timing with the addition of the psionic rules (BTW, the psionic bugs were in the Expanded PsiHB for 3.5 too) helps, it suits the "points of light" mentality, and you can heal without clerics.

Been wrong before, been right before too :smallbiggrin:

Tiki Snakes
2009-08-10, 04:19 PM
Going to ignore the typical edition blather above and chip in with my own hopes and expectations;

I'm personally expecting and hoping for Dark Sun. So many people have been over the reasons why it might be likely, so I'll just say that most of the reasons why not are just not the kind of thing I'd expect to really count.
"Too different, how would they cope with x, how would it even look in the new version" etc all sound much more to me like the kind of negatives that a good team leader could use to fire up his team.

I have high hopes for it.

It could be Planescape related instead, though. I would be okay with this, but I'm just not convinced that it's likely to be the case. I'm quite sure that they could and would do good things if this is what they choose, but It sounds rather more of a thematic leap, setting-wise, than Dark Sun. Plus really, you've got everything you need to run planescape already, really.

Same as Planescape with Ravenloft, though I'd say it feels more likely than Planescape somehow. You do have what you need already, but on the other hand, they have been quietly adding bits and pieces of Ravenloft stuff in all over the place. If this is what they go for, (and I would enjoy it if so) I could see it being chosen cheifly to answer the '4th is just combat' side of things though, rather than a truly proactive choice. It would prove a good vehicle for pushing the noncombat side of roleplaying, but I'm just not convinced it's nearly the most likely.

Greyhawk? Har. So unlikely I could vomit. So few people show any enthusiasm for the idea, and they went to such lengths to obliterate it as the generic setting in the first place. It is just so unnecessary. If we ever see a greyhawk setting book, I'd expect it to be in the sense of the Blackmoor setting book; Firmly Third Party Published.

Most importantly, these threads all seem to follow a very specific direction, (those I've read here and there) and it's always Dark Sun that seems to get the most enthusiasm and interesting points raised (both for and against), whereas planescape and ravenloft usually just gets yes/no posts, and greyhawk no/NOOOOO!.

So, yeah. Stuff.

holywhippet
2009-08-10, 04:23 PM
4E removes the need for divine casters to have gods and introduces the primordials as being elemental lords. This fits right in with Dark Sun because gods can't reach Athas.


I thought there used to be Gods for Athas but they abandoned the world because it had turned into such a wasteland.

IIRC the stats for Darksun characters tended to be higher in earlier editions to reflect how strong you needed to be to survive. I wonder it they will recommend a higher point build or something.

RTGoodman
2009-08-10, 04:48 PM
*points to 4e DMG/PHB I*

The others aren't in there, but Vecna is. Heck his eye and hand are core artifacts.

Yeah, I meant Boccob (the NON-evil god of magic and my go-to god for 3.x casters) but apparently typed Vecna instead. :smallsigh:

Altima
2009-08-10, 05:10 PM
If they use an existing Campaign Setting, I do hope that they actually keep it instead of pulling another 4e FRCS. I'd rather have a new setting--and let the others named rot--than have to see another catastrophe like that once more.

The more I hear about Dark Sun, the more exciting it sounds. I demand to be told more of it!

Sir Homeslice
2009-08-10, 05:33 PM
Most importantly, these threads all seem to follow a very specific direction, (those I've read here and there) and it's always Dark Sun that seems to get the most enthusiasm and interesting points raised (both for and against), whereas planescape and ravenloft usually just gets yes/no posts, and greyhawk no/NOOOOO!.

So, yeah. Stuff.

To me, it seems like Ravenloft is depressing for the sake of being depressing, and Planescape is nothing more than a glorified and overhyped philosophy wank.

Of course, Dark Sun is depressing too, but has more to it than Ravenloft, and I'm just not remotely a fan of Planescape.

AstralFire
2009-08-10, 05:37 PM
I happen to like Planescape, but I do think it's overhyped. And on a tangential point - I dislike the Lady of Pain as much as I dislike Ao. Neither are very active presences in their settings, but I wanted to bring that up.

All powerful beings that exist to do absolutely nothing but maintain status quo for no clearly defined reason irritate me.

WhiteHarness
2009-08-10, 06:32 PM
I don't get all the Greyhawk hate. What was so bad about it?

I also absolutely cannot see the appeal of the Dark Sun setting. I hate, hate, Hate, HATE that setting.

Matthew
2009-08-10, 06:37 PM
Ugh. I'm really hoping it's not Greyhawk. The more I learn about that setting, the less I like it.



Greyhawk: it's D&D for "generic".



If it's Greyhawk I will personally buy the books and record myself setting fire to them.



Yep - back in college one of my friends was gonna start doing Living Greyhawk, and I was all excited about it. Then I started reading about it and was... pretty disappointed.

The only thing I particularly like from the setting is a handful of the gods, and at least a few of them are so genericized now they're already in 4E. I miss Heironeous and Hextor, and Vecna, and St. Cuthbert most of all, but if they were to come back I'd rather see it as a "Divinities of Greyhawk" Dragon article or something.



In parts, but mostly that it's just... D&D.

I'm an aberration among most D&D fans I know in that I dislike a lot of the D&D standards for the genre - the planar cosmology, dragons, how the gods work, racial relations and the sheer number of them... when I pick up the Monster Manual or read about something from Greyhawk, I go "this would not be out of place in He-Man", and I was never a big He-Man fan, even as well-done as the 2003 revival was.

As I think I've commented, I owe more of my concepts of fantasy to Narnia and Asheron's Call than I do anything with elves or Slaad.

Heh, heh; this sounds like fodder for another thread. Personally, I hope it is not Greyhawk, but mainly because I would prefer no more violence be done to that setting. However, with the recent freebie being Village of Hommlet I am not confident that it will not be. Another possibility is Mystara, but that is just as generic a setting, and if anything less popular than Greyhawk.

Whatever setting they visit, we can pretty much expect a big shake up of established canon to accommodate a new design vision and novel line, I am hoping it will be something imaginative, because as much as I feel for those invested in the Forgotten Realms, the campaign setting book was actually good and well written (it could have done without that ****ty introductory adventure, though). Dark Sun or Spelljammer are the strongest contenders outside of Greyhawk if it is true that Dragonlance is out of the running. Of those two, Dark Sun is probably the easiest project to undertake and has a strong fan following to disappoint. :smallbiggrin:

Fax Celestis
2009-08-10, 06:48 PM
I don't get all the Greyhawk hate. What was so bad about it?

It's generic. In some instances, "generic" is good. In it's most literal definition, "generic" can mean "genre-defining", which it most certainly has been.

But in this instance, "generic" means that it's nothing new and exciting. There's no surprises, no room for adventure or growth or amazement (and don't give me the 'that depends on your DM' line: a good DM can make trash into gold, but that same good DM can make gold into diamonds).

Sir Homeslice
2009-08-10, 07:01 PM
buncha quotes

Don't take me out of context! The fire was by far and large a joke, mainly to poke fun at the people who actually do waste money to set things on fire and not realize how ridiculously dumb a move it actually is.

jmbrown
2009-08-10, 07:01 PM
I happen to like Planescape, but I do think it's overhyped. And on a tangential point - I dislike the Lady of Pain as much as I dislike Ao. Neither are very active presences in their settings, but I wanted to bring that up.

All powerful beings that exist to do absolutely nothing but maintain status quo for no clearly defined reason irritate me.

The Lady of Pain has very good reason. Sigil is the center of the planes. It's the road through which all planes converge. If the Lady didn't exist, demons and devils would have taken over Sigil from day 1 and used it as their staging ground for the endless blood wars. Even worse, Sigil would have become the staging ground for a demonic/devil invasion of the entire planes.

Sigil is the only truly neutral entity in the multiverse where everyone and everything can come and go and do business without worrying about opposite alignments. A slaad can strike a deal with a modron and a deva can drink at the same table as a demon.

Not saying they would but they can and there's no divine intervention stopping them.

tbarrie
2009-08-10, 07:19 PM
I don't get all the Greyhawk hate. What was so bad about it?

Nothing. There's also nothing good about it. It's the exact same setting as The Forgotten Realms/Dragonlance/The Known World/Whatever Place Names Your DM Just Randomly Dropped On A Map Last Weekend, but with the names changed.

(Though I'll confess I'd actually be kind of stoked to see The Known World (or "Mystara", if you must:)), but that's a nostalgia kick; I certainly wouldn't pretend the setting is actually interesting. And part of the reason it would be neat is that the setting has been out of print for so long; Greyhawk doesn't even have that going for it, as it was covered in third edition.)

AstralFire
2009-08-10, 07:28 PM
The Lady of Pain has very good reason. Sigil is the center of the planes. It's the road through which all planes converge. If the Lady didn't exist, demons and devils would have taken over Sigil from day 1 and used it as their staging ground for the endless blood wars.

But why does she care? Militant neutrality as a philosophical principle has always rung hollow to me. Apathy is different, and if she didn't exist, I'm sure everyone else with an interest in not seeing the multiverse destroyed would be doing their best to keep the demons and devils on their own turf. As it is, she's just kind of a lazy insertion for a fiat.

Charity
2009-08-10, 07:30 PM
Ooo oo The Septic tank of Spellguard made Matt swear...

I am actually playing that adventure at the mo, so no spoilers pls.
Luckily my mates are accomplished turd polishers so we do alright... What level is it suposed to go up to btw? cos we're 6th now and we still haven't finished it.

/derailing of own thread

Tiki Snakes
2009-08-10, 07:35 PM
I happen to like Planescape, but I do think it's overhyped. And on a tangential point - I dislike the Lady of Pain as much as I dislike Ao. Neither are very active presences in their settings, but I wanted to bring that up.

All powerful beings that exist to do absolutely nothing but maintain status quo for no clearly defined reason irritate me.

Like royalty in certain settings, they do instill certain reactions in me too.
Terrible, complusively murderous thoughts.

The Lady of Pain, as ill defined and over-hyped as she is really does make me want to find in-character ways to kill and destroy her. The fact that the word is that the Gods themselves tremble, and she's all 'reality devourer' level of invincible horror whose shadow itself instantly and without fail kills you...just means that it has to happen all the more.

I try not to focus on such blasphemous urges though, it'd only end up annoying other people in the group, successful or not.

Also, it amuses me infinately to think that the mysterious uber-powerful Lady of Pain is instead an Avatar of Asmodeus in drag, running an insanely complex Xanatos Roulette as part of his more far-reaching schemes.

jmbrown
2009-08-10, 07:45 PM
But why does she care? Militant neutrality as a philosophical principle has always rung hollow to me. Apathy is different, and if she didn't exist, I'm sure everyone else with an interest in not seeing the multiverse destroyed would be doing their best to keep the demons and devils on their own turf. As it is, she's just kind of a lazy insertion for a fiat.

Because Sigil is her city. It's meant to be a gathering point for all creatures good or evil. If one extreme gains a foothold over the other, she puts a stop to it.

If you invite your friends over and they wreck your house, are you going to sit back and do nothing? Likewise if your friend is in need and they over stay their welcome, will you not say something? Evil creatures want to dominate. Lawful creatures want everything to conform to them. Chaotic creatures want to wreck everything. Good creatures want to exert their will.

True neutral creatures believe everyone has the right to do what they please so long as it doesn't inhibit another person's right. Evil can practice being evil but the moment they start exerting control I.E. stepping on the toes of good creatures (which they will do), the Lady stops it. Chaotic creatures can do as they damn please (which they will) but as soon as they tear down the halls of lawful and orderly societies (which they end up doing) the Lady stops it.

In short, Sigil is her house. She invites people in and she expects everyone to behave. When mortals and deities begin their scheming, and they do scheme because alignment extremes can't not scheme, the Lady "takes out the trash."


I'm sure everyone else with an interest in not seeing the multiverse destroyed would be doing their best to keep the demons and devils on their own turf.

But will they stop there? That's the important question. If Sigil was a bastion of good the denizens would actively fight the forces of evil and vice versa. The Lady is one of few deities that has no desire to expand beyond her own borders. Sigil can't be run by any other deity or else it'd collapse immediately. Unlike Ao, the Lady actually takes an active part in keeping peace.

Can any good deity claim the same? Everlasting peace through strict neutrality?

edit: Shoot, when you think about it the Lady does more than any other D&D deity. Think about it; if the Lady didn't exist then what would happen to Sigil? It would be fought over by devils and demons trying to gain control. Good creatures like devas and archons would step in to help. Being the city of doors, the war would literally spill into every plane instead of being confined to the Abyss/Nine Hells. You'd have catastrophic war going across the multiverse where every planar creature has access to every plane because Sigil is completely open.

If anything the Lady is the #1 peace keeper in all of Dungeons and Dragons canon.


The Lady of Pain, as ill defined and over-hyped as she is really does make me want to find in-character ways to kill and destroy her. The fact that the word is that the Gods themselves tremble, and she's all 'reality devourer' level of invincible horror whose shadow itself instantly and without fail kills you...just means that it has to happen all the more.

Ravel Puzzlewell hated the Lady for this very reason. Mortals can never be truly neutral because they always desire more. I'm actually glad you posted it because it's pretty much the defining reason why neutrality is hated more than an alignment extreme.

I forget who said it, but I remember a quote "Neutral entities are dangerous. At least you know where your enemies stand."

Probably Futurama.

Edit 3 or 4: Wow... really went overboard there.

I shouldn't have to point out that Planescape is one of my favorite game settings ever :D

Matthew
2009-08-10, 08:11 PM
Don't take me out of context! The fire was by far and large a joke, mainly to poke fun at the people who actually do waste money to set things on fire and not realize how ridiculously dumb a move it actually is.

As far as I can see, that is not me taking you out of context, that is a failure of communication common to text based interaction.



Ooo oo The Septic tank of Spellguard made Matt swear...

I am actually playing that adventure at the mo, so no spoilers pls.
Luckily my mates are accomplished turd polishers so we do alright... What level is it supposed to go up to btw? cos we're 6th now and we still haven't finished it.

/derailing of own thread

Actually, I was thinking of the introductory adventure in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide: Raid on Loudwater, so cannot do much to help you out as regarding the Scepter Tower of Spellgard (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/dndacc/217647400). However, the blurb on the Wizards of the Coast website says it takes characters from 2nd level to 5th level, so you are already past the designed boundary! :smallbiggrin:

Tiki Snakes
2009-08-10, 08:15 PM
edit: Shoot, when you think about it the Lady does more than any other D&D deity. Think about it; if the Lady didn't exist then what would happen to Sigil? It would be fought over by devils and demons trying to gain control. Good creatures like devas and archons would step in to help. Being the city of doors, the war would literally spill into every plane instead of being confined to the Abyss/Nine Hells. You'd have catastrophic war going across the multiverse where every planar creature has access to every plane because Sigil is completely open.

If anything the Lady is the #1 peace keeper in all of Dungeons and Dragons canon.

Not buying it.

Because it's almost a cyclical argument, to some degree. Sigil is as it is, because the Lady of Pain is there. If the Lady of Pain wasn't there, X might happen.
BUT this is only true because X happening otherwise is the only real element
in her personality. It is her entire reason for existing, narratively*.

If you remove her from the equation altogether, then any other macguffin or dues ex machina can just as comfortably maintain the exact same state of affairs. And the state of affairs is all that's really important, because she's not really a character as much as a hollow plot device. She can't be interacted with, she has no real goals and no real motivations, she has no origin and no history. (I tend to be of the opinion that 'space intentionally left blank' backstory, when used to imply mystery, is a cop-out when there is clearly no offical truth being concealed.)

Recall the episode of the Simpsons where Lisa tries to teach Homer a lesson, using a rock?

Lisa: But by that same argument, I could claim that this rock keeps tigers away.
Homer: How so?
Lisa: I don't see any tigers, do you?
Homer: Lisa, I'd like to buy your rock.

The 'Blood War' justification reminds me of this, for some reason. I much prefer the idea that Sigil is a prison, but I'm happy enough just to ignore her existence altogether, as really she adds nothing meaningful as I understand her.

AstralFire
2009-08-10, 08:17 PM
Tiki Snakes put what I was thinking much better; if there was no lady, you could just as easily have a cabal of disenfranchised outsiders who have grown tired of fighting and decided to found a place of NO FIGHTAN, only without the arbitrary transcendence of any and all rules for no clear reason. I don't even get why Sigil would be particularly important; the alignment planes are filled with near epic and epic creatures. Surely they don't need Sigil to get their armies to places. And IIRC, Outland - the plane Sigil's on - still has strong portal access across the multiverse.

jmbrown
2009-08-10, 08:23 PM
If you remove her from the equation altogether, then any other macguffin or dues ex machina can just as comfortably maintain the exact same state of affairs. And the state of affairs is all that's really important, because she's not really a character as much as a hollow plot device. She can't be interacted with, she has no real goals and no real motivations, she has no origin and no history. (I tend to be of the opinion that 'space intentionally left blank' backstory, when used to imply mystery, is a cop-out when there is clearly no offical truth being concealed.)

And the state of affairs is the result of her existence. If another macguffin existed, it would draw the same ire from creatures that wish to overtake the city and it would draw the same hate from players because a mysterious, omnipotent, omnipresent object exists that keeps them from doing what they want to do.

The end result is important but said result reflects directly on the macguffin in question. Whatever it is, the macguffin has to be neutral or else Sigil would be a completely different place. I like the Planescape setting because Sigil is where a traveler can literally find anything and everything. If the city were alignment dominated, that would instantly cut your options in half and turn it into another boring "Evil/Good/Lawful/Chaotic planar city"


you could just as easily have a cabal of disenfranchised outsiders who have grown tired of fighting and decided to found a place of NO FIGHTAN, only without the arbitrary transcendence of any and all rules for no clear reason

A cabal of mortals would be crushed. You just said that there are epic creatures in the multiverse.

Whoever keeps Sigil tied together has to be a sentient being. If it was an artifact, it could be destroyed/stolen/deactivated/etc.

AstralFire
2009-08-10, 08:26 PM
I'm perfectly fine with Sigil being a neutral city. I like it that way. I just don't get the existence of an all-powerful, no background not-deity who can do any and everything she wants but is content to have a city where there is effectively little law, and does not even want worship.

She's not understandable as an entity. She seems to lack drive or purpose. That's less a person and more a force. My dislike of her stems from that, not from feeling like she's in my way or something. I'm a DM primarily.


Whoever keeps Sigil tied together has to be a sentient being. If it was an artifact, it could be destroyed/stolen/deactivated/etc.

She barely qualifies as sentient, is my issue.

jmbrown
2009-08-10, 08:32 PM
I'm perfectly fine with Sigil being a neutral city. I like it that way. I just don't get the existence of an all-powerful, no background not-deity who can do any and everything she wants but is content to have a city where there is effectively little law, and does not even want worship.

She's not understandable as an entity. She seems to lack drive or purpose. That's less a person and more a force. My dislike of her stems from that, not from feeling like she's in my way or something. I'm a DM primarily.

She can't do anything and everything. She can only kill and maze people. The dabus do her physical labor. "Doing what she wants" implies that she schemes or has ulterior motives. She doesn't. She keeps the peace. Period. If everything is peaceful she continues to float around. When someone spills the milk she cleans it up. That's it.

And the city does have law; that law being not to tread on people's toes. That's difficult enough. How many times have people IRL have used you for their own gain and vice versa? The Lady isn't going to maze Mrs. Granny who stole 2 coppers but Mrs. Granny may end up being the victim of a thief. That's "The Wheel" in action. That's the multiverses' law. What goes around comes around.


She barely qualifies as sentient, is my issue.

A sentient being is a thinking being and a thinking being is a scheming being. The writers suggest Sigil is the Lady's cage. If the Lady were any other deity she'd be plotting escape. If she plotted escape she just broke her reason to be.

The "macguffin" has to be totally emotionless and all powerful. It can't be anything else. To simply say "Sigil is the center of the planes but nobody fights" would be unrealistic. She exists because any other object wouldn't make sense at all.

The Lady is the only logical ruler. Nothing else could work and not providing a reason would piss more people off than actually presenting the reason.

Tiki Snakes
2009-08-10, 08:56 PM
She can't do anything and everything. She can only kill and maze people. The dabus do her physical labor. "Doing what she wants" implies that she schemes or has ulterior motives. She doesn't. She keeps the peace. Period. If everything is peaceful she continues to float around. When someone spills the milk she cleans it up. That's it.

And the city does have law; that law being not to tread on people's toes. That's difficult enough. How many times have people IRL have used you for their own gain and vice versa? The Lady isn't going to maze Mrs. Granny who stole 2 coppers but Mrs. Granny may end up being the victim of a thief. That's "The Wheel" in action. That's the multiverses' law. What goes around comes around.



A sentient being is a thinking being and a thinking being is a scheming being. The writers suggest Sigil is the Lady's cage. If the Lady were any other deity she'd be plotting escape. If she plotted escape she just broke her reason to be.

The "macguffin" has to be totally emotionless and all powerful. It can't be anything else. To simply say "Sigil is the center of the planes but nobody fights" would be unrealistic. She exists because any other object wouldn't make sense at all.

The Lady is the only logical ruler. Nothing else could work and not providing a reason would piss more people off than actually presenting the reason.

The Lady of Pain doesn't make any sense at all, anyway. She's powerful enough to outright slay Greater Deities, and to single-handedly keep every single outer influence in the entire multiverse from even really trying to mess with Sigil, including entire pantheons of evil gods, an infinate number of demons and dozens of demon princes, elder evils, and good aligned over-deities of whatever shade and so on.
She's not a God though, she's essentially just a vaguely lawful aligned, lobotomised mary-sue cribbed almost wholesale from some old poem (leaving out the few features that could have made her vaugely interesting as a person or entity in any real way)

Really, if she'd been designed in a way that she had any reason for existing outside of her ambient surroundings, she'd be a much more enjoyable character perhaps even begin to approach the point where she could be described as a character.

Right, so. What I see as important is that Sigil remains neutral, and outside of the control of external forces (or at least, largely outside said control)

You do not need to resort to omnipotent automatons to acheive such a situation. The most obvious reason for such a city to exist in the first place is as a neutral meeting-ground. In this case, it is perserved because all(or enough of the external forces to co-erce the rest into playing along) agree that it should be so. If the demons attempt to march through Sigil to further their war, all noteworthy gods, good or evil, would retaliate to maintain Sigil's neutrality, because it is just far too useful as a meeting place for interdimensional politics and so on.

Likely it was created for just this reason. This model even leaves room for a neutral minded 'caretaker', be they powerful imprisoned entity or some kind of arcane/divine construct. However, they would not merely be an arbitrarily powerful uberbeing, they would instead have space left for a personality, motivations and so on. They also have the luxory of having actually come from somewhere, having a justification for whatever powers and/or authorities they possess, a reason to ever be used as part of a plot(as they can actually possess opinions on events of any-kind) and so on.

Altima
2009-08-10, 08:58 PM
Part of Sigil's charm is that the Lady of Pain is NOT defined. That's one of those 'up to the DM' sort of things. In fact, it probably barely affects any of the campaigns.

She's basically a reasoning force of nature. The ultimate god-slaying trump card. Honestly, Sigil is too valuable to be under anyone's control, other than her's.

Also, she's not an avatar of Asmodeus. She's six giant hampsters in a robe that know illusionary magic.

Tiki Snakes
2009-08-10, 09:04 PM
Part of Sigil's charm is that the Lady of Pain is NOT defined. That's one of those 'up to the DM' sort of things. In fact, it probably barely affects any of the campaigns.

She's basically a reasoning force of nature. The ultimate god-slaying trump card. Honestly, Sigil is too valuable to be under anyone's control, other than her's.

Also, she's not an avatar of Asmodeus. She's six giant hampsters in a robe that know illusionary magic.

I'd go so-far as to guess she barely affects any campaigns, period. She's a mary-sue-powered burglar alarm.

Also, if she is so powerful as to easily dispatch the greatest of Gods, then Sigil becomes largely worthless to cosmic entities, I'd have said. They can already send their minions where they need them, why have dealings with a tiny little demiplane that will only get you destroyed if you happen to wander through? (Not to mention that a suitably powerful source of light and some careful positioning should be capable of wiping out vast swathes of the population, if the Lady is ever seen in public.)

That last sentance there makes up for the entire rest of the thread, however. Totally Canon.

jmbrown
2009-08-10, 09:07 PM
You do not need to resort to omnipotent automatons to acheive such a situation. The most obvious reason for such a city to exist in the first place is as a neutral meeting-ground. In this case, it is perserved because all(or enough of the external forces to co-erce the rest into playing along) agree that it should be so. If the demons attempt to march through Sigil to further their war, all noteworthy gods, good or evil, would retaliate to maintain Sigil's neutrality, because it is just far too useful as a meeting place for interdimensional politics and so on.

Likely it was created for just this reason. This model even leaves room for a neutral minded 'caretaker', be they powerful imprisoned entity or some kind of arcane/divine construct. However, they would not merely be an arbitrarily powerful uberbeing, they would instead have space left for a personality, motivations and so on. They also have the luxory of having actually come from somewhere, having a justification for whatever powers and/or authorities they possess, a reason to ever be used as part of a plot(as they can actually possess opinions on events of any-kind) and so on.

But they can't and that's the point I'm trying to harp on. The D&D deities are akin to the Greek deities. They scheme, they have plans, and they carry out their plans through their minions. Good and evil. You can't be Lawful Good and at the same time accept a place as a neutral point for all creatures of polar opposites. It's not possible. History has proven that no neutral territory has gone uncontested and in Fantasy Land (tm) it's the same. The good gods want Sigil as much as the evil gods.

Whoever keeps Sigil neutral has to be an uber deity because all other deities will try to curb stomp him or influence him. The Lady is the only logical road block to keep the extremities out. If you have motivations then you have plans of your own. Neutral characters can make friends; as an arbiter you can't have friends. No one, absolutely no one, can influence, over power, or ultimately seize control of Sigil or else the entire multiverse would fall to war as one side tries to seize the other.

I'm just going to agree to disagree and leave it at that since I've derailed this topic enough.

I'm now itching to convert Planescape material over to 4E. Thanks a lot for wasting more of my time, AstralFire. It was your comment that prompted my response on the Lady :smallmad:.


That last sentance there makes up for the entire rest of the thread, however. Totally Canon.

There's a reason Sigil has no sun.

Tiki Snakes
2009-08-10, 09:13 PM
There's a reason Sigil has no sun.

Hamsters being nocturnal creatures, yeah. :smallsmile:

Cracklord
2009-08-10, 09:17 PM
Greyhawk, their desperate bid for legitimacy.
Failing that... Ravenloft, I 'spose. Spelljammer would be awesome. Dark sun... not so much.

I would have liked Dragonlance. Shame.

FoE
2009-08-10, 09:42 PM
It's likely not Ravenloft, since they've already established that the Domains of Dread lie in the Shadowfell and profiled at least a couple of them that I know of. In fact, there was an article about one of the Domains last month, I think.

As for all this discussion of Planescape ... I've never played Torment, but from what I've read about Sigil doesn't really seem all that great. I think it has its place in the D&D cosmology, but aside from cranking up the moral ambiguity to eleven, the setting doesn't really do anything special that I can't find in, say, Eberron.

holywhippet
2009-08-10, 11:15 PM
I don't get all the Greyhawk hate. What was so bad about it?


As I understand it, Greyhawk was the first D&D world built. As such, it was just built in more ad hoc fashion than the others by adding whatever they needed as they went.

After that they started building "theme park" worlds or worlds with more specific flavour. Forgotten realms being kind of an exception being many different varied regions stuck together.

cabbagesquirrel
2009-08-10, 11:29 PM
I'd like another competition, aka like they did with Eberron, sure it's a cop out for wizards to get some freelance to do the work, but I was too young and silly when they did the first one, but now I want a go!

jmbrown
2009-08-10, 11:37 PM
As for all this discussion of Planescape ... I've never played Torment, but from what I've read about Sigil doesn't really seem all that great. I think it has its place in the D&D cosmology, but aside from cranking up the moral ambiguity to eleven, the setting doesn't really do anything special that I can't find in, say, Eberron.

It's a hub for planar adventure. Normally walking the planes requires someone with plane shift or some other means of teleportation which is rare in conventional settings. Planescape let people deal with devils and float through zero-g at level 1.

Also, isn't Greyhawk still owned by Gygax? I thought the reason Wizards was so quick to remove all Greyhawk exclusive material in the spell/item compendiums and 4E (like Bigby and Mordenkainen) was because they didn't want to continue paying royalties to Gygax's family.

GoatToucher
2009-08-10, 11:45 PM
Arguably, Forgotten Realms owes its origins to 2nd ed getting away from having to pay Gygax royalties for Greyhawk.