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Arkhemedes
2009-08-10, 01:25 PM
What class is the best one to hinder people that is not a mushy spell caster?
DnD 3.5 :smallwink:

PLUN
2009-08-10, 01:27 PM
Clerics are pretty unmushy, and channelling negative energy can call down literal curses, inflictions, dooms, unhallows...

Darwin
2009-08-10, 01:28 PM
The Hexblade from Complete Warrior has a class feature that centers around cursing people. He's a bit weak for a base class but there are some very nice fixes for him out there.

Arkhemedes
2009-08-10, 01:28 PM
I have that book and i have been looking over it too i think it mightive made a better prestige class

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-08-10, 01:29 PM
Casters do it best, of course(Hexblade, Dread Necromancer, and IIRC the Witch are all good), but if you want a non-caster, your options for limiting opponents are pretty limited. A fear-based Barbarian does it, or a ToB class like Swordsage with the right maneuver selection, are your best bets, though Knight has some debuff/control abilities, too.

AstralFire
2009-08-10, 01:31 PM
Hexblade, go for buffing your familiar heavily, he'll be your new best friend.

sofawall
2009-08-10, 01:33 PM
Hexblade isn't bad. I mean, it's basically the class that curses guys :P

RTGoodman
2009-08-10, 01:37 PM
Go Hexblade, but with a few changes. Mike Mearls posted an unofficial "fix" for the class (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=10585113#post10585113), which puts it in line with the power level of later "gish-in-a-can" classes from 3.5.


The hexblade suffers a little because he came on the scene relatively early in 3.5's life. As R&D pushes the boundaries of the game, we learn that some things we thought were risky or potentially broken aren't. Other times, we learn things that look fine don't actually work in play.

Armored mages fall into the first category. Them seem really powerful, but in the long run they aren't. Spells and magic items allow an unarmored mage to build great defenses. The spell mage armor is as good as medium armor, and its duration allows most mages to keep it active at all times. If you compare the hexblade to the duskblade from PH 2, you can see how the thinking has changed.

If you want to boost the hexblade, I'd try the following changes:

* Good Fortitude save
* Curse ability usable 1 + the hexblade's Cha modifier per day
* Curse ability usable as a swift action
* Curse ability does not count as used if the target makes his saving throw
* Ability to cast in light or medium armor and while carrying a light shield or buckler
* At 6th level, the hexblade can cast one hexblade spell per day as a swift action, as long as its original casting time is a standard action or faster. He gains an additional use of this power at levels 8, 11, 14, and 18.

The key to the hexblade is his curse ability, but it's a little un-fun to have it so limited in use. The hexblade also has trouble casting spells and using his melee attacks, so shifting spells to swift actions fits in with the idea of an armored mage.

(These are by no means official. They're just off the top of my head changes I'd consider making.)

Use that if your DM allows it, and then pick up the Dark Companion ACF from PHB2 for a mobile debuffing companion.

After that, you can grab a few levels of Paladin of Tyranny for even more Cha to saves goodness and Aura of Despair, and then keep going with Hexblade to boost your spells and curse. Maybe take a look at buffing up Fear effects (Imperious Command, etc.), since they stack and fit the flavor, pretty much.

daggaz
2009-08-10, 01:40 PM
Surprised so many people are naming hexblade, which is what, tier four or five unless you take a massive homebrew fix? And only one person names cleric?

3/4s BaB, d8 hps, heavy armor proficiency plus all the sweet codzilla melee spells means you can frontline it without trouble. As far as cursing people, you've got bestow curse, blindness, deafness, silence, desecrate, curse water, undetectable alignment (for doing evil things in a goody town), contagion, giant vermin, poison, summon monster X (feindish baddies im looking at you), slay living, animate dead, unhallow, symbol of X, etc..etc..

There are a ton of spells to directly screw over an unsuspecting victim, spells to use to get away with doing so, and spells to make it real real hard for anybody to mess with you afterwards, should they figure it out. Not to mention the ability to command undead hordes and wreak havoc on the living.

Toss in the evil domain and then either destruction, death, or maybe best trickery, and you are gold.

Yeah.. for a cursing class thats not squishy, Im gonna go with straight cleric here.

Arkhemedes
2009-08-10, 01:41 PM
Go Hexblade, but with a few changes. Mike Mearls posted an unofficial "fix" for the class (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=10585113#post10585113), which puts it in line with the power level of later "gish-in-a-can" classes from 3.5.



Use that if your DM allows it, and then pick up the Dark Companion ACF from PHB2 for a mobile debuffing companion.

After that, you can grab a few levels of Paladin of Tyranny for even more Cha to saves goodness and Aura of Despair, and then keep going with Hexblade to boost your spells and curse. Maybe take a look at buffing up Fear effects (Imperious Command, etc.), since they stack and fit the flavor, pretty much.

I think thats a great idea ill give it a shot
that or mabye ill homebrew a curser type class might be mushy tho :)

Telonius
2009-08-10, 01:42 PM
Dwarf Drunken Master is probably the best one to yell curses at people. :smallbiggrin:

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-08-10, 01:44 PM
Surprised so many people are naming hexblade, which is what, tier four or five unless you take a massive homebrew fix? And only one person names cleric?

3/4s BaB, d8 hps, heavy armor proficiency plus all the sweet codzilla melee spells means you can frontline it without trouble. As far as cursing people, you've got bestow curse, blindness, deafness, silence, desecrate, curse water, undetectable alignment (for doing evil things in a goody town), contagion, giant vermin, poison, summon monster X (feindish baddies im looking at you), slay living, animate dead, unhallow, symbol of X, etc..etc..

There are a ton of spells to directly screw over an unsuspecting victim, spells to use to get away with doing so, and spells to make it real real hard for anybody to mess with you afterwards, should they figure it out. Not to mention the ability to command undead hordes and wreak havoc on the living.

Toss in the evil domain and then either destruction, death, or maybe best trickery, and you are gold.

Yeah.. for a cursing class thats not squishy, Im gonna go with straight cleric here.I didn't because I read the 'non-caster' thing in the OP as 'no casting', not 'not squishy'. For a non-squishy curser, Necropolitan Dread Necromancer(LM and HoH needed). You get d12 HD, immune to YES, ignore most Fort saves, good will, and a massive number of debuff spells and effects. Oh, and at-will healing. Death is your business, and business is good.

AstralFire
2009-08-10, 01:49 PM
Surprised so many people are naming hexblade, which is what, tier four or five unless you take a massive homebrew fix? And only one person names cleric?

Cleric sucks.

There, I said it.

It's a boring class for many people because it does everything without really specializing in anything. You don't get 'really good at cursing', you get 'really good at whatever you decided to do today, which happens to involve cursing.'

Can't speak for the OP, but for me, it doesn't feel the same.

Epinephrine
2009-08-10, 01:55 PM
You could do something interesting with a Halfling Luckstealer; maybe go Warlock first, get some nice invocations that are creepy? The essences provide debuffs (blindness, shaken, sickened), the invocations can add some nice abilities and effects (Voice of Madness, etc.) - later on you get the Luckstealer abilities, which allows you to drain luck from others to gain benefits, and though it only advances casting 7/10 it has a lot of flavour.

Granted, most people think of warlocks as blasters, but no reason you can't describe the eldritch blasts as curses. Warlocks are slightly squishy, but less so than the sorceror and wizard - they can use some armour, get better hit dice, and can have some nifty effects. A sickened, shaken, blind, fatigued, confused opponent is pretty disabled.

Doc Roc
2009-08-10, 03:06 PM
A non-mushy spellcaster. Things like fatespinner, Pronouncement of Fate, and similar effects are simply vastly superior to most anything that's been suggested so far. That said, the classic hexblade fix is an excellent option.

I disagree about clerics. They really are Just That Good. But! What you want is the classic battle-archivist, which ruins days with Dark Knowledge. Seriously, Dark Knowledge is just an incredibly boss ability.

Draz74
2009-08-10, 03:29 PM
Binder is pretty darn good at cursing people. He can get two auras, for example, that give all nearby foes -2 on pretty much everything. No save.

And he's not as squishy as many casters. (A lot like the Cleric that way, actually.)

Warlock is also a decent curse-flinger, if you build him right.

Human Paragon 3
2009-08-10, 03:31 PM
I'm playing a hexblade/corrupt avenger right now and it's a LOT of fun. I get to stack up the curses and fear effects using a few key feats and the dark companion alternate hexblade feature. Corrupt avenger gives decent spell casting, full BAB, a d12 HD and some special corrupt avenger specific curse spells, like Pronouncement of Fate, pretty much Bestow Curse on steroids. Corrupt Avenger also gets a fear-inspiring aura which gives the special condition "unnerved" which is shaken with all penalties doubled.

The one downside of Corrupt Avenger is that it uses the Heroes of Horror corruption mechanic. We don't use that in our game, so my DM handwaved it away. Whenever an ability refers to my corruption score, I just use my charisma score instead. Works fine.

The feats I took are Dreadful Wrath (player's guide to faerfun), which causes enemies within a 20ft radius to make a will save or be shaken whenever you cast a spell, full attack, or charge (basically everything this character does!) and Intimidating Strike(complete warrior), which I make sure to do first if possible since it can't worsen an opponent past shaken. The Never Outnumbered skill trick from Complete Scoundrel lets me intimidate multiple opponents, even via intimidating strike, which makes the feat much better.

Berserk Monk
2009-08-10, 03:43 PM
What class is the best one to hinder people that is not a mushy spell caster?
DnD 3.5 :smallwink:

No idea what you mean by "mushy" but I'd say evil cleric or some class in a secondary source book I can't think of because I only play base classes in the PHB.

sofawall
2009-08-10, 03:46 PM
By mushy, I believe he means squishy.

AstralFire
2009-08-10, 03:47 PM
I disagree about clerics. They really are Just That Good.

I didn't mean effectively; I meant that clerics feel mechanically very bland to me because they have very few permanent class features. It's the same issue I have with the Factotum and Changeling.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-08-10, 04:05 PM
surprised no one has mentioned Warlock. As a Lesser invocation, can Curse -at will-, as a Greater invocation, can cause all kinds of status effects with their EB, not to mention Chilling Tentacles.

And you want non-squishy? Eldritch Glaive.

hamishspence
2009-08-10, 04:25 PM
What about the 3.0 Diablo 2 D20 Necromancer class? any info on that? I have To Hell & Back but never managed to get Diablerie- still, it sounds like a "curse heavy" class.

Draz74
2009-08-10, 04:34 PM
surprised no one has mentioned Warlock.\
I did. Half an hour before you posted this.


I didn't mean effectively; I meant that clerics feel mechanically very bland to me because they have very few permanent class features. It's the same issue I have with the Factotum and Changeling.

Well, in the case of the Chameleon (which I assume was your intention instead of "Changeling"), that's kind of the whole point.

But with Clerics and Factotums, I agree. (Although I have a hard time coming up with very many ideas for what kinds of permanent class features Factotums should have. If you have any ideas, PM me.)