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View Full Version : I think we just annoyed the GM...(3.5)



only1doug
2009-08-10, 05:08 PM
So our regular group (ECL13-14) is continuing its trek through the basement levels of a tower complex.

plot synopsis

Vampire druid is trying to restore a dead dragon god (Ashaerdalon) to life / power, he thinks he is being aided by another cult but they plan to subvert his ritual to summon their object of worship (a rogue star that is actually a wandering planet that is looking for other planets to devour).

Having explored the dungeon level of the tower somewhat we have a safe base room (complete with friendly, high level gnome wizard NPC) we had killed some cult minions and had discovered that the star cult had a champion, a creature known as a Atropal Scion, further questions warned us that the creature had a death gaze attack.


Preperation

We spent some time discussing what we were going to do and which spells we should prepare, it ate about an hour of the game session (6 hours total).
Knowing that Full party death ward (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/deathWard.htm)s was going to mess up our spell points we decided we would prepare to Nova the Scion, we layed on full day buffs and advanced cautiously into the cultist area.

When we started to hear chanting (OK, the druid started to hear chanting, +32 listen check...) we layed on the minute/level buffs and initiated zerg rush.


The Guards

me (Gish) and my 6 images were first to be targetted, a ray shoots out from nowhere and pop goes an image.

I charge the caster provoking a attack of opportunity, another image pops.

The druid engages one of the ambushers and starts trying to eat it, the warforged charger hits another ambusher with 2 weapon rend for a huge amount (about 100Hp), the dervisher joins the druid in beating on the ambusher and the cleric summons a spiritual weapon which helps me with the caster.

The ambushers beat on me and the dervisher, the caster tries to wither my arms and just after I fail the save I remember that he needs to pick a me to target (Pop goes another image, to my huge relief).

The cleric, his spiritual weapon and I wallop the caster a bit, the warforged kills his ambusher, the druid and dervisher whittle away at theirs.

The caster Pops another of my images, the remaining ambusher flails at the druid.

I wallop the caster, the warforged rends it to shreds, the cleric starts to explore the next room, the druid and dervisher continue whittling.

Ambusher hits druid.

I explore next room, recasting mirror image.

druid and dervisher whittle, warforge rends (to tiny pieces).


The main Encounter

Remembering we have minute / level buffs running we continue to zerg rush to get to the Atropal Scion before our death wards expire. (about 5 rounds gone, plenty of time left)

Charging on through another room we find the source of the chanting, a bunch of priest types gathered around 3 alters (and a medium sized floating undead baby)

Seeing us the scion orders its minions to destroy the intruders and when its attempted deathgaze fails it moves closer (flying 15' above the ground).

AoE's start, dervisher starts to shoot the priests (don't ask me why, I'd of melee'd in his position) I have dispel magic as a swift action so I ask if I can use my move action as a counterspell instead of a standard action (the GM, he say yes.... and I feel he may have regretted it).

5 rounds pass of group nuking Atropal Scion and me using dispell magic to stop its spell like abilities, whilst still using my duskblade spell points to throw in 5d6 fire damage each round... the creature we'd Nova'd literally took no part in the combat, it died without having successfully used one spell like ability.


The Cleanup

The cleric told us that any part of the creature could grow into a new one, so we cleared up the room, Fiery burst everywhere, using the druids spot check (+32 modifier) (GM: reserve feat? oh, yeah..)


End of session, bodies carried away as we returned to base to chat with the wizard. (we used all our daily resources on that fight, I had 5 wizard spellpoints left (from 64) and 13 (of 20) duskblade points, the cleric had 3 (of 72), the druid about 15 (of 88).


I dunno, Did I irritate the GM by stopping his big monster from doing anything, Did the warforged do so with his huge (for our group) damage rolls, soloing enemies in 2 rounds is fine when they are mooks, not so good when they are supposed to be challenging.

Note: The GM has stated that events will progress at speed of plot, there is no pressure on us to conserve energy and hit more encounters / day (this is the first time in awhile we have hit less than 4 encounters between resting, but that by our choice not GM pressure).

Hat-Trick
2009-08-10, 05:27 PM
Luck favors the prepared. You prepared, you walloped. Sound's fair to me, although I'd be annoyed and impressed in your GM's position.

holywhippet
2009-08-10, 05:42 PM
Your DM only has themself to blame. For one thing, your counterspelling wasn't legal. I can accept using dispel magic as a quick action instead of a readied action since the DM ok'd it. However, dispel magic can't be used as a counter to spell like abilities. It can dispel them (assuming they have duration) but can't be used as a counterspell.

HamsterOfTheGod
2009-08-10, 05:57 PM
Edit: Nevermind :smallbiggrin: See post below.

1. And that you got away counterspelling spell like abilities...which you cannot do (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040420a)...

2. And that it did not use it's 2 +49 touch attack Con drains for 2d6...which should not have been prevented by your death ward...

3. Or fly away at Speed 200

4. For 5 rounds

It's not that that using the atropal is unfair, the minions lose, it teleports away, BAM! you gotta a really good BBEG for the party to chase.

But that your DM used an atropal CR 30 against to fight your ECL 14 party, even if it is uber maximized (and it seems that it's not -- 100 hp/round for a fighter type at that level shoudl be expected with some optimization) , and with minions, and lost, and he thinks it was your fault...yes he only has himself to blame.

Weezer
2009-08-10, 07:31 PM
1. And that you got away counterspelling spell like abilities...which you cannot do (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040420a)...


It seems that he was using dispel magic to counter spell which the same source you linked says:


When a spell-like ability can be dispelled (as most of them are) one can effectively counter them with a dispel magic spell. While spell-like abilities are not normally subject to counterspells, dispel magic is not really a counterspell. When you use dispel magic as a counterspell, what you're really doing is casting a quick, targeted dispel effect at the correct moment to negate the enemy spell and not creating an opposite magical effect that cancels your enemy's spell.

olentu
2009-08-10, 07:43 PM
It seems that he was using dispel magic to counter spell which the same source you linked says:

The real question in my mind is if there is any actual rules text that supports this or is this just another example of where the rules of the game articles are contradicting the actual rules.

HamsterOfTheGod
2009-08-10, 07:44 PM
It seems that he was using dispel magic to counter spell which the same source you linked says:

It's tricky. Quote "When a spell-like ability can be dispelled (as most of them are) one can effectively counter them with a dispel magic spell."

Noted in the earlier section was "For example, a spell-like ability with an instantaneous duration cannot be dispelled, and the dispel user must make a successful caster level check to dispel any spell-like ability with a longer duration."

Hence, greater teleport or blasphemy (intant TPK), which the atropal scion has, cannot be dispelled.

Of course, one can disagree with the WotC ruling.

But even if you allowed counterspelling for instantenous SLA, it would take a caster level check against a DC of 30 to counter an SLA from the atropal scion. With regular dispel magic, it's (normally) impossible for the 14th level caster. With greater dispel magic, the 14th level caster (without maximization and feats) only succeeds on a roll of 17 or more, or about 20% of time.

So how the party successfully countered the atropal for 5 consecutive rounds is...hard to believe.


The real question in my mind is if there is any actual rules text that supports this or is this just another example of where the rules of the game articles are contradicting the actual rules.

It's going to be a RAI so it can go either way. But I think the WotC ruling makes sense. (Edit: In this case!)

Milskidasith
2009-08-10, 07:47 PM
It's probably because they used the normal counterspelling rules, which make it an automatic success. Honestly, the DM played this encounter terribly.

Olo Demonsbane
2009-08-10, 07:47 PM
1. And that you got away counterspelling spell like abilities...which you cannot do (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040420a)...

2. And that it did not use it's 2 +49 touch attack Con drains for 2d6...which should not have been prevented by your death ward...

3. Or fly away at Speed 200

4. For 5 rounds

It's not that that using the atropal is unfair, the minions lose, it teleports away, BAM! you gotta a really good BBEG for the party to chase.

But that your DM used an atropal CR 30 against to fight your ECL 14 party, even if it is uber maximized (and it seems that it's not -- 100 hp/round for a fighter type at that level shoudl be expected with some optimization) , and with minions, and lost, and he thinks it was your fault...yes he only has himself to blame.

Atropal scion, not plain atropal.

Milskidasith
2009-08-10, 07:50 PM
Atropal Scions are... weaker, right? I can't find any info on the SRD.

An Atropal Scion is... CR 11, from what I can tell. Why did your DM think that would be a good boss monster? It should be evenly matched with one of your party members 3 levels ago.

HamsterOfTheGod
2009-08-10, 07:57 PM
Atropal scion, not plain atropal.


Atropal Scions are... weaker, right? I can't find any info on the SRD.

An Atropal Scion is... CR 11, from what I can tell. Why did your DM think that would be a good boss monster? It should be evenly matched with one of your party members 3 levels ago.

Ah! My bad. Applogies. What is it? CR 11? Libris Mortis? The remains of an atropal...

Then it seems the victory was pretty much OK, given the CR.

Though if it was mean to the be a recurring BBEG, then it's low in CR, and it should have been much more ready to flee, if anything.

The party, like I said, does not seem that uber. But given what they can do, a CR 11, regardless of abilities, it should have falled to party given favorable circumstances and the party insured that so...

Cute_Riolu
2009-08-10, 07:58 PM
Atropal Scions are... weaker, right? I can't find any info on the SRD.

An Atropal Scion is... CR 11, from what I can tell. Why did your DM think that would be a good boss monster? It should be evenly matched with one of your party members 3 levels ago.

Emphasis added; incorrect. It would have been a match for the entire party three levels ago. CR describes the monster's power relative to a four-person party.

olentu
2009-08-10, 07:59 PM
It's tricky. Quote "When a spell-like ability can be dispelled (as most of them are) one can effectively counter them with a dispel magic spell."

Noted in the earlier section was "For example, a spell-like ability with an instantaneous duration cannot be dispelled, and the dispel user must make a successful caster level check to dispel any spell-like ability with a longer duration."

Hence, greater teleport or blasphemy (intant TPK), which the atropal scion has, cannot be dispelled.

Of course, one can disagree with the WotC ruling.

But even if you allowed counterspelling for instantenous SLA, it would take a caster level check against a DC of 30 to counter an SLA from the atropal scion. With regular dispel magic, it's (normally) impossible for the 14th level caster. With greater dispel magic, the 14th level caster (without maximization and feats) only succeeds on a roll of 17 or more, or about 20% of time.

So how the party successfully countered the atropal for 5 consecutive rounds is...hard to believe.



It's going to be a RAI so it can go either way. But I think the WotC ruling makes sense.

Well without some supporting text then if I am remembering the rules compendium correctly it says that spell like abilities can not be counterspelled and I believe that the SRD states the same. Assuming that I am remembering this correctly then barring a specific exception in the actual rules that I am not remembering one can not counterspell a spell like ability.

Milskidasith
2009-08-10, 08:00 PM
A CR 11 monster would be a match for four party members using one fourth of their daily resources. It's also supposed to be a 50-50 chance against a same level party member, but that should use most all of his resources for the day. Since this is the BBEG, it's obviously supposed to use all of the party's remaining resources in the fight.

Proven_Paradox
2009-08-10, 08:46 PM
I wouldn't be celebrating victory just yet. Were I in this game and playing a fairly intelligent character, I would be warning that maybe that was a decoy.

But your party prepared well, worked together, and used your resources in battle efficiently. My thoughts as a DM are that this earns you a significant victory, and you should savor it while you can. (Because now the real threats know your capabilities better and can prepare specifically to counter them. >:D)

Milskidasith
2009-08-10, 08:50 PM
Remember, it's a CR 11 monster; beating it should have been no problem at all.

Woodsman
2009-08-10, 08:52 PM
I must resist my urges to shout at you what your DM is DMing precisely, but from what you've mentioned, I can't tell completely.

Tell me... are corpses randomly animating into undead?

KillianHawkeye
2009-08-10, 09:58 PM
I must resist my urges to shout at you what your DM is DMing precisely, but from what you've mentioned, I can't tell completely.

Tell me... are corpses randomly animating into undead?

Actually, it sounds to me like the DM has combined a couple things into one plot.

only1doug
2009-08-11, 04:02 PM
I wouldn't be celebrating victory just yet. Were I in this game and playing a fairly intelligent character, I would be warning that maybe that was a decoy.



Atropal Scions are... weaker, right? I can't find any info on the SRD.

An Atropal Scion is... CR 11, from what I can tell. Why did your DM think that would be a good boss monster? It should be evenly matched with one of your party members 3 levels ago.


It wasn't described as a Boss mob, this was the bodyguard of the high priest (I was suprised that the priest wasn't also present).


Your DM only has themself to blame. For one thing, your counterspelling wasn't legal. I can accept using dispel magic as a quick action instead of a readied action since the DM ok'd it. However, dispel magic can't be used as a counter to spell like abilities. It can dispel them (assuming they have duration) but can't be used as a counterspell.

I didn't realise they were spell like abilities until I looked up the monster the day after. I told the GM I'd attempt to use dispel to counterspell, the GM allowed it.


It's tricky. Quote "When a spell-like ability can be dispelled (as most of them are) one can effectively counter them with a dispel magic spell."

Noted in the earlier section was "For example, a spell-like ability with an instantaneous duration cannot be dispelled, and the dispel user must make a successful caster level check to dispel any spell-like ability with a longer duration."

Hence, greater teleport or blasphemy (intant TPK), which the atropal scion has, cannot be dispelled.
As noted by others it didn't have those SLA's. Dispel magic, cone of cold and plane shift were the abilities that I countered with dispel, perhaps wrongly but at the GMs call.




Of course, one can disagree with the WotC ruling.


which are as often obviously wrong as they are obviously right. which means when you have a difficult call then WotC are no use as a guideline.


But even if you allowed counterspelling for instantenous SLA, it would take a caster level check against a DC of 30 to counter an SLA from the atropal scion. With regular dispel magic, it's (normally) impossible for the 14th level caster. With greater dispel magic, the 14th level caster (without maximization and feats) only succeeds on a roll of 17 or more, or about 20% of time.

So how the party successfully countered the atropal for 5 consecutive rounds is...hard to believe.



It's probably because they used the normal counterspelling rules, which make it an automatic success. Honestly, the DM played this encounter terribly.

As noted it was CR11, CL9

at CL13 I had to roll 7 or higher to use dispell to counter its abilities.


I must resist my urges to shout at you what your DM is DMing precisely, but from what you've mentioned, I can't tell completely.

Tell me... are corpses randomly animating into undead?

nope, not one (but then we have been cremating all the corpses as we make them, (standard precaution when necromancers are around))


Remember, it's a CR 11 monster; beating it should have been no problem at all.


It wasn't a pushover, If we hadn't prepared we could of faced a TPK. I really must learn the fly spell so we can melee this kind of thing. It could of just floated there laughing at us and killing us if we hadn't prepared death wards (none of us has a good enough fort save to face dc19 checks round after round). death warding the front rank just lets the flier shoot past and kill the rear. I feel we were right to be worried about facing this (and we didn't know it was a CR11 until after the fight (actually the others still don't).