[4e] Thri-Kreen

[Mauril Everleaf]

While sitting and chatting with a friend today I convinced myself that I wanted to homebrew a Thri-Kreen for 4e. Here is my (likely poor) attempt at brewing up a player version of the mantis people.


Thri-Kreen
Ability Scores: +2 Dexterity, +2 Wisdom
Size: Medium
Speed: 7 squares
Vision: Darkvision

Languages: Common
Skill Bonuses: +2 Athletics, +2 Stealth
Multiple Limbs: A Thri-Kreen has 4 arms, but each arm can only wield an Implement, an Offhand one-handed weapon, or a Light shield. It can carry items normally. Other one-handed weapons must be wielded in 2 hands, (even if a class feature lets you wield them as if offhand) and Versatile weapons do not gain their bonus damage unless wielded in at least 3 hands. Two-handed weapons, including Double weapons with the Offhand property, require all 4 hands.
Hive Mind: +1 racial bonus to Will defense
Poisoned Mandibles: You have the poisoned mandibles racial power


Poisoned Mandibles
Encounter * Poison
Standard Action Melee Touch
Target: One Creature
Attack: Dexterity +2 vs AC
Level 11: Dexterity +4 vs AC
Level 21: Dexterity +6 vs AC
Hit: 1d6 + Dexterity Modifier damage and the target is slowed (save ends).
Level 11: 2d6 + Dexterity Modifier damage and the target is immobilized (save ends).
Level 21: 3d6 + Dexterity Modifier damage and the target is immobilized and dazed(save ends both).


There are a few feats I envisioned for this critter also.

Claws of the Mantis: Heroic
Prerequisite: Thri-Kreen
Benefit: You possess vicious claws, which you can use as weapons with a +3 proficiency bonus and 1d6 damage. For purpose of powers and feats, you can treat your claws as light blades, and you are considered to have a weapon in each hand. You cannot enchant your claws.

Naturally Psionic: Heroic
Prerequisite: Thri-Kreen
Benefit: Resist Psychic 5 + half level

Innate Inoculation: Heroic
Prerequisite: Thri-Kreen
Benefit: Resist Poison 5 + half level

Natural Armor: Heroic
Prerequisite: Thri-Kreen
Benefit: While wearing no armor or cloth armor, you gain a +1 feat bonus to AC. Increase the bonus to +2 at level 11 and +3 at level 21.

Thri-Kreen Weapon Proficiency: Heroic
Prerequisite: Thri-Kreen
Benefit: Gain proficiency in the Gythka and Chatkacha and gain a +2 feat bonus to damage with those weapons.

Reserve Power: Heroic
Prerequisite: Thri-Kreen, psionic class
Benefit: You gain an additional power point to use to augment your powers.

Multiple Limb Advantage: Paragon
Prerequisite: Thri-Kreen, claws of the mantis feat
Benefit: On a critical hit with a melee weapon, you may make a claw attack as a free action as long as you have at least one claw free.

Master of Many Arms: Epic
Prerequisite: Thri-Kreen
Benefit: You are treated as having two hand slots and two arm slots. You may wear both magical bracers and a magical shield, for example, gaining benefits from both.

How does it look?

EDIT: Lots of changes!

[AstralFire]

If you can't enchant the claws, I would add some sort of enchanted edge item so that players who get into having THE CLAW as a dual-wield option don't have it left behind as they increase in level.

[jmbrown]

Increase the claw's damage and proficiency per tier. +6 and 2d6 damage at paragon, +9 and 2d8 damage at epic or something. It doesn't make up for the lack of enchantment, but it makes it a more desirable option.

I couldn't imagine how enchanting a natural weapon would work fluff wise although I guess you could say they coat their claws in residuum.

[RTGoodman]

I think the Gnoll PC has a claw-fighter feat, and I believe it has stipulations about how to enchant the claws as weapons. Might want to check that out for some inspiration.

Personally, I might like +2 Wis, +2 Str or Dex, so they naturally gravitate towards (TWF) Ranger or Fighter along with any Dex-based classes (Monk). There's precedent in the Changeling, after all.

Also, I think since the poisoned bite is a thing all Thri-Kreen seem to have (at least, as far as I remember), maybe that could be a racial power, and then either the Hive Mind or psychic resistance could be a feat. Up to you, though.

[Mauril Everleaf]

The claw feat is stolen, word for word, from the Gnoll feat presented in Dragon 367. It seems to me that this feat is more of a "I am never without a backup weapon" than "I can use my claws in combat!". For that, you should play a Monk.

[Limos]

Don't Thri-Kreen have four arms? I did a homebrew of the Sahuagin that have four arms and I gave them a double claw attack racial power usable as a minor action. That way they could make a normal attack and then use their extra arms in the same turn.

You could also give them a racial Quickdraw due to being able to use their extra arms to pull a new weapon.

[Forte]

I'd make the poison bite the racial power and not a feat. All thri-kreen have the ability to create poison, not the select few who happen to take a feat. Also, give them Gythka and Chatkacha proficiency.

Aside: There is no explaination for the thrikreen toxin in 3ed/3.5, but if you're going with athasian rules, then they would need a certain plant to chew to envenom their saliva. It doesn't change the fact that all of them are capable of generating a poisonous bite.

Edit: I also seem to recall their venom paralyzing and not killing, but I don't have my source material with me at the moment.

[Mauril Everleaf]

Changed some stuff.

I made Poisoned Mandibles their racial power and shifted it from ongoing poison damage to a status effect. Please check the power level on it.

I also tossed in a few extra feats. I am wanting to make the armor bonus from the Natural Armor feat be typed, but making it a feat bonus seems wrong and so far there are no racial AC bonuses, so it might as well be untyped if I do that. Thoughts?

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Well, what seems wrong about making Natural Armor a feat bonus? Really, that just means it makes up for when other AC bonuses kick in, which has no effect unless you're dealing with a feat such as the Improved Armor of Faith or the swordmage warding one, because those are both constant. Otherwise, I think it's fine as a feat bonus.

The one major concern I have? The two-handed melee weapons. I don't really want to contemplate the insanity that is a TWF Ranger wielding double Execution Axes or Mordenkrads. That...and I wonder if the Defensive property stacks? You could then have a TWF Ranger wielding two Double weapons, or a Thri-Kreen of another class wielding a Double weapon for the AC bonus, and then another off-hand weapon. That, right there, is the biggest power gain for this race.

Still, it doesn't have much else in the way of racial features, so maybe that's balanced.

[Mauril Everleaf]

Should the Gythka and Chatkacha proficiency be like the Dwarven Weapon proficiency feat?

How does this look?

Thri-Kreen Weapon Proficiency: Heroic
Prerequisite: Thri-Kreen
Benefit: Gain proficiency in the Gythka and Chatkacha and gain a +2 feat bonus to damage with those weapons.

[Alteran]

I think it's going to be very hard to balance having four arms. WotC has decided that Oversized is overpowered, and this is even more powerful than that. Instead of wielding a d12 Bastard Sword, you could wield a d12 Fullblade with the same effective number of hands. Both are Superior Heavy Blades with d12 damage and a +3 proficiency bonus, except one has high crit. The other is usable with a class feature already considered to be too powerful.

This might requires some fluff revision, but you could say that only two arms are fully functional. The others can be used normally, except any attacks made with them suffer a -5 penalty to the attack and damage rolls. That should be enough to stop people from making TWF Rangers with two Fullblades. You could also give them a free action draw once per round if they have at least one free hand.

As it is, I'm really liking the idea of a Thri-Keen Rogue. The light blade claw means they can sneak attack even when "unarmed".

Speaking of the claw, it needs some kind of inherent enhancement bonus. Without it, it becomes almost useless at higher levels. +1 per 5 levels is a good baseline, if you want you could probably start the progression at level 6 instead of level 1. I might look at how they deal with it for other natural attacks, like the Dragonborns' breath weapon. Or do what you did for the Poisoned Mandibles attack.

[Ashtagon]

I think being able to wield 2x two-handed weapons makes sense for a thri-kreen (or two one-handed weapons). But not any combination that woudl allow 3 or more weapon/claw attacks to be available; they have extra arms, but not necessarily the mental agility and coordination to do four different things with them. It's tough enough for a human to do two different things, after all.

I would disallow double weapons though. A double weapon needs to be wielded across the body, which would interfere with the movement of the second weapon. This also avoids teh issue of having 3+ pointy ends of weapons.

[Shadow_Elf]

Wielding two-handed weapons as if one-handed without any form of penalty should never be allowed, ever, IMHO. As Alteran pointed out, a Thri-Keen Two-Weapon Fighting ranger will run around dual-wielding Fullblades, Execution Axes or Mordenkrabs, and will just be completely devastating. It far more powerful and far more difficult to balance that the already-deemed-overpowered "Oversized" racial trait.

Instead, consider letting them use the extra arms as usual, but only ever use the contents of two arms in one round. So, the thri-keen rogue could wield a dagger, a rapier and a superior corssbow, but could could only either use the Rapier and Dagger OR the superior crossbow's benefits in one round. If they take advantage of the passive property of a weapon off their turn, such as an AC boost from Defensive, then they must use and be able to use the weapon on their turn. This would add versatility, simulate a Quick-Draw-like effect, but would not add any sheer measurable power. In addition, I believe "stunned" is too powerful for the Epic version of their poison bite - I would instead use "restrained", which while it may not fit perfectly in a thematic sense, is the "progression" of immobilized, as immobilized is the progression of slowed and stunned is the progression of dazed.

[Alteran]

In addition, I believe "stunned" is too powerful for the Epic version of their poison bite - I would instead use "restrained", which while it may not fit perfectly in a thematic sense, is the "progression" of immobilized, as immobilized is the progression of slowed and stunned is the progression of dazed.

I agree that stunned is too good, but restrained makes no sense. Perhaps immobilized and dazed?

[vasharanpaladin]

Hm... I'm trying to do the same with draegloths (the four-armed drow-demon badasses) and ran into a similar problem regarding the arms. My solution was this:

Four-Limbed Beast: You have four hands, and may use all four to hold items. Once per turn as a free action, you may change which items in your hands are designated as being held, and which are designated as being wielded, as is legal for your character. You cannot use properties from held items, only from wielded items. You still have only one arms slot for magic items. When wearing a shield but not wielding it, you gain its properties, but you do not gain your shield bonus to your AC and Reflex defenses.

[Ashtagon]

Hmm. I was under the impression that 4e treated two-weapon fighting as "you have two one-handed weapons at the ready. Pick one each round". No?

[Mauril Everleaf]

It does for non-Rangers, non-Tempest Fighters. I can see the concern about the uber Ranger with dual Executioner Axes, which is why I originally didn't give them a racial power.

I do like vasharanpaladin's alternate idea, but it still feels a little inelegant. Although I don't think there really is an elegant way to word that, to be honest.

On the Poisoned Mandibles power, immobilized and dazed is marginally weaker than stunned, so I will go ahead and sub that in.

[Forte]

Is the problem with balance because of ranger powers that strike with both weapons when dual wielding? (Not as experienced with 4ed as I'd like to be)

[Alteran]

Is the problem with balance because of ranger powers that strike with both weapons when dual wielding? (Not as experienced with 4ed as I'd like to be)

Two-Weapon Fighting Rangers need to use two weapons. They have a special ability that lets them use a one-handed weapon in their off-hand, so they can use two one-handed weapon. With 4 arms, they could conceivably use two two-handed weapons, and those are significantly more powerful than the weapons Rangers were intended to use.

[Mauril Everleaf]

Yeah, pretty much. I thought it might be. Currently (with a single feat) TWF Rangers can wield two bastard swords, which are d12 damage and a +3 proficiency. This is rather powerful. With a single feat and the racial feature I proposed, a Thri-Kreen TWF Ranger could wield two fullblades, which are d12 damage, +3 proficiency and high crit. Even more powerful. WotC decided that the racial trait for bugbears and minotaurs (as statted in MM1) was too powerful and it simply allowed for using large sized weapons (basic up-die from medium sized weapons).

I am still trying to work out what I want to do with the four-armed bug people that keeps them in line with plain ole humans and elves.

[Forte]

I think the easiest way to keep it in line is something that's being missed. The only reason I can see that the four arms is overpowered in this case is because instead of just having four arms, it allows the use of two handed weapons as one handed. This is a distinction that causes more problems than is needed. Without that caveat, a thri-kreen would still have that option, but he'd be treated as wielding 2 two-handed weapons (which he is) instead of wielding 2 two-handed weapons as if they were one handed. This means that he wouldn't be able to do anything overpowered with his two two-handers because the ranger can't treat a two-hander as an off-hand weapon. What you wind up having instead is a simple bonus of wielding a two-hander and getting the +1 for dual wielding if you have the two-weapon fighting feat. You also get the ability to wield 2 versatile weapons and apply the damage bonus for two hands instead of one. If the player goes with four one handed weapons, then he's limited again by the powers as they only give you the option to deal damage with two of them per use of the power.

I just don't see a case where this actually becomes overpowered now that players are limited to a single attack power per round.

I would also make the poison bite a daily power and work it thusly:

Poison Bite
Daily * Poison * Reliable
Standard Action *Melee
Target: One creature
Attack: Dexterity vs. AC
Hit: 1D4 + Strength modifier Damage. If that attack hits, make a secondary attack.
Secondary Attack: Constitution vs. Fortitude
Hit: 3d6 + Constitution modifier poison damage and target is slowed (save ends). If the target fails the first save, it is immobilized (save ends).
Miss: 1d6 + Constitution modifier poison damage and target is slowed (save ends).

Reliable only makes sense: if you miss the bite, you didn't use your venom that day. The secondary attack is common in monsters that use injury poisons and the slowed to immobilize is a mechanic used in many other powers (like sleep).

Edit: Also, I'd raise speed to at least 7. They've always been a quick race and at 6 they'd be slower than elves.

[Mauril Everleaf]

Speed 7 was something I considered...and implemented.

Alternate racial power listed. Which do you guys prefer?

I think I might want another Paragon feat or two and an Epic feat. Thoughts on those?

[Burley]

I don't racial alternate power is correct. I mean, if it's reliable, why would you get Miss: damage/effects?
A reliable power should be completely ineffective on a miss, otherwise, you'd want it to miss everytime.

[Forte]

I don't racial alternate power is correct. I mean, if it's reliable, why would you get Miss: damage/effects?
A reliable power should be completely ineffective on a miss, otherwise, you'd want it to miss everytime.

Reliable preserves the power if it misses on the primary attack if I understand it right. The secondary attck is the application of venom on the target after bite damage is applied. If there was no damage component on a miss, then you could potentially have just used a daily power to deal a paltry 1d4 damage. Maybe it has to be clarified that the miss effect is from a missed secondary attack and not a missed primary attack. I thought its placement in the power description was what specified it, but I might be wrong.

[vasharanpaladin]

...There's no precedent for a race that has a daily power. Can we try and focus on balancing the four-arms aspect first? Please? So we can soon have thri-kreen and draegloth in our parties? :smallfrown:

[Mauril Everleaf]

I do prefer the Encounter power anyway, if only because it seems to fit with precedent.

Would restricting the one set of arms for reloading ranged weapons and letting versatile weapons gain their extra +1 damage for being wielded two handed?

For example, your sword-n-board defender Thri-Kreen could wield a bastard sword two handed and carry a shield. This still gives TWF rangers a slight edge, but that is nearly unavoidable.

Also, with this wording, a character could wield a ranged weapon and a shield. Is that too powerful? If this was 3.x, I would say not, but with the increase in power of ranged weapons, it might be.

[vasharanpaladin]

...No, because you could add in that ranged weapons almost have to be wielded across the body, so they couldn't be used with shields. Except for thrown weapons, obviously, but they could already do that. :smalltongue:

[CarpeGuitarrem]

...No, because you could add in that ranged weapons almost have to be wielded across the body, so they couldn't be used with shields. Except for thrown weapons, obviously, but they could already do that. :smalltongue:
That's not really in the spirit of the rules, though...because what defines "across the body"? 4E is all about defining rules that are regulatable within the context of the rules, not using vague undefinable things like this. That's my problem. Plus, I could see someone arguing that it's perfectly possible to wield a bow with two arms on the same side of the body.

Forte, you do make a good point. The thing is, though, this does still give far bigger balances to many things than most races get. For instance, any versatile weapon automatically gets the +1 bonus, because you can wield it easily two-handed, and still have an open slot.

[vasharanpaladin]

...Okay, then, put it on hold for now. Dark Sun's the next CS out. :smallcool:

[Mauril Everleaf]

I don't want to have to wait a year to play this critter though...

[vasharanpaladin]

Won't have to. We're down to 8 months, tops. Be optimistic, it'll be out in May. :smallwink:

[Cieyrin]

I randomly found this today in my search for material on Modrons, which may be useful for you in your balancing of the Thri-Kreen arms racial ability: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1051730

Though I personally don't see an issue if you want to let Thri-Kreen wield 2 versatile weapons two-handed for the +1 damage. It's not like they can do a two-handed Power Attack this way (which is silly in my book but I digress).

I also wouldn't mind potentially seeing a 4-weapon Multiclass style feat chain, like the Weapon Mastery feat chains for Blowguns, Nets and such in Dragon #373, and get a Multiweapon Fighting type flavor onto Thri-Kreen Tempest Fighters and Two-Weapon Rangers. That'd be pretty nifty in my book, which would go hand-in-hand-in-hand-in-hand with the Draegloths and Rogue Modrons and whatever other random multi-limbed PC races out there.

Them's my 2 coppers. Take as you will.

[Mauril Everleaf]

For those that don't want to look at the link, here is the relevant bit.

Four arms: You can hold up to four items at once. You can hold up to two one-handed and two off-hand weapons (or two two-handed weapons) at one time. Doing this doesn't let you make multiple attacks in a round (unless you have powers that let you do so), but you can attack with any weapon you hold. Rogue modron rangers who use the two-blade fighting style may wield a one-handed weapon in each hand, but can only attack with two per round. If you hold two or more weapons (or a two-handed weapon), you may not use a shield.

I think I would need to add in something that specifies that a four armed creature still only has one arm slot and one hands slot, the same as a normal (two armed) character.

How does this look?

[Cieyrin]

Sure, limiting the item slots makes perfect sense, though I could potentially see an epic feat opening up an additional slot, perhaps, on such a multi-limbed race, though they'd probably need to be trained in Arcana, at the least, if not more requirements than that.

[vasharanpaladin]

You'd still have a hard time convincing someone to let you play one, at least until WotC releases something for a precedent. I stand by my "Four Limbed Beast" writeup, though. With luck, we'll have official kreen stats leaked in the Dark Sun previews, and then we'll be set. :smallamused:

[vasharanpaladin]

Good news! I found this suggestion on Gleemax:



The most debated aspect of Thri-Kreen seems to be the 4 arms, a trait that, in most writeups acts like some crazy combination of Oversized and Godlike Stature- only really useful for Weapon users, and overpowered for them.


My own soution limits what each hand can carry. each arm is fairly weak, but they ttal up to being on par with a normal weapon user.

A Thri-Kreen has 4 arms, but each arm can only wield an Implement, an Offhand 1-handed weapon, or a Light shield. It can carry items normally. (Implement users have extra options, as do Tempest fighters. Other classes can use it like free quick draw for potions) Other 1 handed weapons must be weilded in 2 hands, (even if a class feature lets you wield them as if offhand) and Versitile weapons do not gain their bonus damage unless wielded in at least 3 hands. (note: slight advantage to Versitial weapon users) 2 handed weapons, including Double weapons with the Offhand property, require all 4 hands. (No advantage- having 4 hands doesn't let you copy a level 24 ED feature)


I have no intention of addressing any other aspects of the race, only making this one feature usable for most classes, without becoming a flat bonus to weapon users.

As it stands with the equip limitations, the mantis will favor smaller weapons that let him take advantage of his natural mobility, while Doubleweapons that would only tangle their arms drop by the wayside. Any class that already has a free hand will now have two, allowing them to hold a potion or such while they fight. Implement users can carry a spare Wand or three for the Daily powers, without worrying about messing up Minor-sustain effects, and there mat be a racial feat that improves on Dual Implement Caster and Two Weapon fighting, just a touch. Only Greatweapon builds get gypped... but are, at least, no worse off than normal. You got a big weapon for the damage, you're playing against type anyway, IMO.

[Mauril Everleaf]

That is pretty much perfect...

Edit: Added!

[vasharanpaladin]

And now, hopefully, this will be good until we get the official version. All hail the kreen!

[Mauril Everleaf]

Added a pair of new feats, Master of Many Arms and Reserve Power. How do they look?

[Cieyrin]

Yay, Master of Many Arms looks sweet! =3

The only issue I have with Multiple limbs as it stands is it kicks sand in the face of the Thri-kreen wielding 2 gythka, which is somewhat iconic. Not like there is a way to do that currently, though I suppose that would fall into the jurisdiction of a Thri-Kreen Weapon Mastery feat chain, anyways, to allow for more than 2 weapon attacks, which I'd imagine would be an encounter or daily attack power replacement, anyways. I guess it otherwise works fine. Just need some stats for the gythka and chatka and we'll have a good stand-in for a 4E Thri-Kreen. I'd do it myself but my sense of 4E balance is virtually non-existant.

Them's my 2 coppers. Take as you will.

[vasharanpaladin]

...A thought occurs. As it is, the current racial power pigeonholes the kreen into a Dex-based class. Since nobody really cared about the poison as much as having four arms back when anyway, maybe we can use that power to simulate the kreen's awe-inspiring Jump check?

[Cieyrin]

Makes sense to me. The Thri-Kreen Leap is always jaw-dropping to behold, so having a way to emulate that as an encounter attack power, perhaps as a charge that you don't have to worry about rough terrain or people in the way of, considering you're leaping from your starting position. Then just make the Poison Mandibles as racial feat chain, for those who want the ability to do so.

[Mauril Everleaf]

Giving them a "leaping charge" encounter power limited them just as much as making a Dex based power. Charges are pretty much only useful by melee classes, and even then, not all of them. Rogues get little to nothing out of a charge, nor do strength clerics.

I had (at one point) made the racial power Str/Con/Dex, your choice, since almost every class has some reliance on a physical stat and those that don't aren't going to be mixing it up in melee often enough to consider it a loss if they can't reliably hit.

To simulate the jumping, why not a feat to augment their racial +2 to athletics that either lets them exceed their movement on a jump or gives them a +10 to athletic checks made to jump? Both?

[Cieyrin]

Giving them a "leaping charge" encounter power limited them just as much as making a Dex based power. Charges are pretty much only useful by melee classes, and even then, not all of them. Rogues get little to nothing out of a charge, nor do strength clerics.

I had (at one point) made the racial power Str/Con/Dex, your choice, since almost every class has some reliance on a physical stat and those that don't aren't going to be mixing it up in melee often enough to consider it a loss if they can't reliably hit.

To simulate the jumping, why not a feat to augment their racial +2 to athletics that either lets them exceed their movement on a jump or gives them a +10 to athletic checks made to jump? Both?

Well, to make it a little less combat specific, you could make it like the Eladrin's Fey Step, though a physical leap, rather than short-range teleportation. Every Thri-Kreen should be able to jump small buildings in a single bound and, as per ye olde Dark Sun setting, they need to take preparation to do the poision bite, which says to me that it's more fitting as feat power to me.

[Mauril Everleaf]

What about something like the Rogue level 2 Utility "great leap".


At-Will
Move Action Personal

Effect: Make a high jump or a long jump. Determine the DC of the Athletics check as though you had a running start. The distance you jump can exceed your speed. Slightly modified

How does that work?

[vasharanpaladin]

...That could work....