Support Relationship Woes and Advice, Trip to Baator [Archive]

xPANCAKEx

2009-08-11, 09:07 AM

carried over from the last thread (kudos to syka)

Well...After the confession thread, I saw way too many "what do I do in this situation" threads popping up, so here is one nice compendium. Come here to post questions about how to approach the opposite sex, the dread first date and, should you be in a relationship already and fairly certain they don't read Giant, a place to complain/seek advice about a current flame.

If you'd rather not make it public, I will compile a list in this thread of people who will accept PM's to give advice.

The biggest bit of advice I've seen bandied around is the truest- no matter what else is true about the situation, always be yourself. It's no good to act like someone else, because eventually the true you will come out and the other person will not be happy you hid that from them.

Rules Of Relationships:
#1- Communicate. If you can't talk with your partner, it's probably not going to work.

#2- Be yourself. Admittedly, if you have some really bad habits you should probably try to change them, but be honest about who you are. No one wants to find out they were loving a lie, and no one likes to live a lie (...well, normally).

#3- Accept your partner. In mine, and other people's, experience you have to be able to accept your partner as they are, because they probably won't be able to change. Also, don't change drastically for someone. I've tried it, my friends have tried it, it doesn't work and it doesn't end pretty.

#4- Hints. Do. Not. Work. Or they might, but the chance of that happening is limited. Some people are like me and just utterly oblivious unless it is blatantly stated, others are (also like me) and don't want to assume, and yet others don't care. You won't know which they belong to unless you actually spell out your intentions and/or feelings. I would consider this a corrolery to Rule #1 except that it comes up so often. Do NOT assume someone should know something from hints. Hints, by nature, are subtle. Clue Bats/Crow Bars/Mack Trucks are not. Try hitting them with one of those. ;) (No, not literally. I mean be upfront if you are trying to get someone to know something.)

Private Advice Givers:
Eh, I'm pretty sure any regular has an open PM box for you.

RULES. YOU READ THESE.
-Anything of a sexual nature, please PM to either myself or one of the regular advice givers. If you just want general opinions post something like: "I have this problem, but it is not board appropriate. Could one of you guys PM me?" I know from experience that you will in fact get help.

-KEEP IT NICE. Disagreements are bound to happen, but please don't be rude.

-Joking is all fun and games, within reasons. Please do not get derogatory.

I decided to put this up because, evidently, it was not apparent that these should be followed. I do not want this thread to be scrubbed again, and we were blessed to get it back.

so please - play nice, and if you're not comfortable talking about things over the open board, PM one of the regulars (too many to mention), and im sure they'll be willing to lend an ear - or if you're not sure who to PM, post asking for someone to PM you, and you'll soon get a response

Tiger Duck

2009-08-11, 03:04 PM

Why don't I open this thread with a problem I'm having

To start some background on me.
I crush very easily but have a lot of trouble with the approach of her.
Only ever told one what I thought of her (she rejected me but that is not what this is about). So now I'm a 22 year old that has never had a date.

And now my "problem"
My neighbours have some house guests, a couple of their approximate age and what I assume is the daughter who is my approximate age. Now we have noticed each other a few times and subsequently smiled at each other.

We have adjacent yards but there is an elevation differences of about 3 or 4 feet and they have the high ground. there is also a fence and some plants.

What would a good way to approach her?

FoE

2009-08-11, 03:07 PM

It's over, Captain Happy. She has the high ground. Don't try it!

Tiger Duck

2009-08-11, 03:11 PM

Yeah I've threw that in so someone could make that joke. :smallwink:

Hadrian_Emrys

2009-08-11, 03:21 PM

Captain Happy: *raises hand* Ooh! Ooh! Pick me! I know this one!

Man up and just talk to her. If you get shot down again, so what? It happens. The only thing you have to lose is the delusion of possibility. It's freaky at first, and getting turned down sucks, but try to learn from each sucky event and you'll eventually get into the swing of things.

Tiger Duck

2009-08-11, 04:38 PM

GolemsVoice

2009-08-11, 04:44 PM

No! No! No! While I certainly am not the most successful person when it comes to getting dates (I could certainly tell my own stories right here), I found that it it better to just, well, throw yourself into cold water. Just approach her and say something that you can't get out of without looking ridicilous. Just summon up enough courage to ask her to go see a movie with you or something. And then, whatever comes, comes. The important thing is to just DO something, as opposed to doing nothing. Trust me with this one, try it! You only have to gain, nothing to loose. Personally, I often find myself awake late at night thinking about the times that I could have tried but didn't, while the times I did try and failed don't trouble me nearly as much. Go out and ask her, I'll wish you best of luck!

Pyrian

2009-08-11, 05:06 PM

And because I don't know when they'll leave I most likely keep looking for a good opening till she is gone. That's what I usually do.I see you have already experienced the effect that good openings are few and far between. :smallcool: Perhaps you should consider going for a "bad" opening - like simply knocking on her door. Alternatively, you could leave a small pink flower and a note and then try to contact her directly (leave contact info on the note but don't imply that you expect her to use it - if she does, cool, if she doesn't, take the next step the next day - but don't leave things hanging). A solid opening is an honest compliment and a suggestion that you get to know each other better over coffee/ice cream/whatever.

Erts

2009-08-11, 05:29 PM

Yea I know, it's just that the illusion of possibility is what I run on.
But you are right I should either man up or shut up.

And because I don't know when they'll leave I most likely keep looking for a good opening till she is gone. That's what I usually do.
So I'll shut up now.

Don't just walk up and ask her out. Make conversation. I say this because she might already be with someone, and it will be awkward from then on with your neighbors.

daecrist

2009-08-11, 05:47 PM

The illusion of possibility will never become reality if you don't approach her. Dating is like anything else. You're going to fail a lot before you succeed, but you also learn a little something from each failure. The trick is not letting the failures get to you too much.

Also, learn to recognize the opportune moment and go for it. I was once a shy introvert myself around girls until I started hearing from former crushes about how they wished I'd said something. After that I decided to just go for it. While it's not always going to work out, it'll never work out if you never say anything.

Ninja Chocobo

2009-08-11, 06:49 PM

I was once a shy introvert myself around girls until I started hearing from former crushes about how they wished I'd said something.

Well what stopped them from saying anything?! Huh? Huh?!

snoopy13a

2009-08-11, 06:53 PM

Well what stopped them from saying anything?! Huh? Huh?!

Traditionally, it is up to the male to make the first move. Females sometimes will drop hints, flirt, etc but is it uncommon for them to ask a male out.

Coidzor

2009-08-11, 07:42 PM

Indeed, which is why I tell all the girls I know who are sick of not being asked out to just become iconoclasts already if they won't learn the lingo of their sex-gender-construction thing.

fetfet

2009-08-11, 07:49 PM

Alright, the girl and I have been emailing for about 2 weeks now. I asked her out(kind of, I asked if she was free on a certain day), and she said she'd like to go to a movie with a group of people.

I asked her if I could just see her, which in hindsight sounds horribly stupid. And I'm not entirely sure how to interpret the whole situation. Is she playing it safe? is she just not interested? et cetera.

Please?

Coidzor

2009-08-11, 08:06 PM

So what, she was suggesting going with a group of people to go to the movies with? Or that she was already planning on going to see a movie?

Also, she probably didn't want to get alone with you right from the get go or thought it was friendly. if it's the first case.

evil-frosty

2009-08-11, 08:08 PM

Traditionally, it is up to the male to make the first move. Females sometimes will drop hints, flirt, etc but is it uncommon for them to ask a male out.

I hate this. It is so much easier if the girl makes the first move. But since i am the shy, awkward kid in the corner most of the time i hate it more then other people.

Pyrian

2009-08-11, 08:10 PM

Easier for whom, though? :smallwink:

fetfet

2009-08-11, 08:10 PM

Coidzor

2009-08-11, 08:12 PM

Well, you might have put her off by being that forward, depends on the context of the conversation really. I'm about to head out the door though, so I'll let cooler heads than mine handle this one, haha.

Serpentine

2009-08-11, 10:37 PM

What would a good way to approach her?Be vewwy, vewwy qwiet, and wear sqweaky shoes.

First of all, do you know your neighbours at all? If you do, then there's some more advice there.
If not, wait 'til she happens to be in the yard, walk over and introduce yourself to her. Ask her where she's from, how she's related to your neighbours, why she's visiting, what she does, when she's leaving... That sort of thing. Give openings for her to ask back, and give substantial answers. Then, throw in a "hey, before you leave for home again, would you like to catch up for [x]?" Or better yet, in the aforementioned conversation, seek out her interests and go from there - if you have something pertaining to that interest, invite her over and continue the conversation. If you don't but you know a place that does, inert that place in [x].
Now, this is important: If she says "no", be pleasant about it. Say "oh well. Let me know if you change your mind, okay?", with a smile. Either continue the conversation, or, if it's already run its course (don't just suddenly conclude it), give a cheery farewell. There's all sorts of reasons she could decline, and if you make it a big deal you're more likely to prevent a later opportunity, or simply the development of a nice friendship.

thelizard: What'd she say when you asked if you could see her alone?

xPANCAKEx

2009-08-11, 11:32 PM

Captain Happy

the wonderful Serp has once again hit the nail on the head with this one. You've got nothin to lose by standing there in the garden havin a talk across the fence - especially if theres been positive smiles exchanged

Ninja Chocobo

the majority of girls prefer a guy with self confidence in spades - the flirting/hint dropping is a test of that, to see how you measure up and if you'll follow up on things. That and many of them lack the confidence to make the move themselves.

I personally view it as risk management. I can deal with someone shooting me down a LOT easier than i can deal with thinking about a "what if" for the forseeable future to come... but thats just my personal take on life

Tiger Duck

2009-08-12, 12:08 AM

arguskos

2009-08-12, 12:29 AM

Thanks everyone
I'll try to follow Serp advise. And if I can't get myself over the whatever was stopping me yesterday. I'll leave one of a cute little box of my own devising for her with my contact info in it.
Don't just leave your contact info, leave a note that says, "Hi! I think you're pretty nice. I was busy today, but I'd like to get to know you better. Here's my number, call me for coffee sometime."

Stress the cute and that you would've come yourself, but were busy or something.

Tiger Duck

2009-08-12, 03:51 PM

Bah I didn't did anything useful today. Hope she's still here tomorrow so I can try again.

Trai

2009-08-12, 07:30 PM

*waves* It's me from the last thread-- girl with crush on boy who did not wish for long distance relationship. Anyway, small update on my situation-- we did end up seeing each other after all; after he canceled on me, he suggested we go see a movie. We saw Funny People together a couple nights ago as friends, and it wasn't awkward-- me liking him didn't come up, and overall there was no weirdness about any of it. So, we're still going to be friends, and I'll look forward to college, like all of you said :smallsmile:

xPANCAKEx

2009-08-12, 10:01 PM

MethosH

2009-08-13, 07:13 PM

Hey! A friend of mine just sent this video (http://www.flurl.com/video/43311167_girlfriend_doesnt_realize_boyfriend_is_on _vacation.htm) and I think this is the best place to share it.

YPU

2009-08-13, 08:02 PM

The Neoclassic

2009-08-14, 01:42 PM

Something I wanted to share, since its something I have been noticing about myself for some time.

I can be harsh to the people close to me, especially my girlfriend. Not because I don’t like them, her. But because I want them to have the best and when I see them not achieving what I think they could have it hurts in a way. But the way I react doesn’t get over the way it should.
Anyhow, acceptance is the first step towards change so I think it wont be my problem for long anymore.
But its something I wanted to share, since I think others might do the same and not realize it.

My boyfriend did the same thing for a while. He never understood tact, and that sometimes people know what's wrong with them, but haven't "fixed" it yet for whatever reason.

Speaking of my boyfriend... My low self-esteem and his bluntness are a very poor combination. It's far better than when we started dating, but lately it's becoming a problem again. I'm realizing that a lot of the changes I'm committing too (losing weight, dressing better, cutting off a lot of my hair) are primarily because of him. He's told me that he had an ex who was noticeably more attractive and better in bed, so I constantly feel like he expects more of me. I know the problem isn't with him; he only mentioned that once, and he's working a lot harder to tell me that he thinks I'm pretty and smart and awesome... But as I'm insecure, the amount of reassurance I need is ridiculous. :smallannoyed:

I guess I don't know what to do. He and I have talked about it, and he doesn't understand why I can't just chill and accept that he likes me fine as I am. I know I can't be the best at everything for him, and that I should be doing things for myself, etc... But that doesn't really sink in. So, I guess I either need tips on how to lose weight and get rid of my acne and deal with ridiculously frizzy hair, or advice on how to calm the hell down. :smalltongue:

Sorry for the semi-ranting post.

Pyrian

2009-08-14, 02:06 PM

My first question for you, Neoclassic, is if you accomplished all those things, would you be satisfied, or would you just find more things to be unsatisfied with yourself about? What's your first, off-the-cuff, instinctive answer?

The reason I ask is that there are fundamental distinctions between legitimate desires for self-improvement, legitimate desires to please one's lover, and problematic issues where you believe you can never be good enough. And honestly, those distinctions get muddled easily and are almost impossible to determine from an across-the-internet perspective.

...It's easier in person. When the morbidly obese person and the supermodel each complain about their need to lose weight, an objective observer can generally figure that one of them has a point and the other has an altogether different problem.

In your particular case, my inclination is to say that you should believe your boyfriend when he tells you he likes you as you are. Because whose opinion of your sex appeal is more important than your significant other's?

Umael

2009-08-14, 02:37 PM

Neoclassic:

Overweight? Sloppy dresser? Acne?

None of that can wishstand the might of a smart mind, a great personality, and a confident attitude.

I dated someone who really had nothing to complain about when it came to looks, but due to self-esteem issues, even complimenting my lover was like squirting someone with dime-store squirt gun in 100 degree weather (that's about 38 degrees if you want it in Celsius).

Conversely, I've been attracted to a number of people, overweight or not, because they are intelligent. Benjamin Franklin was very popular with the ladies, even as a fat, old, balding man - because he was so intelligent.

If you want to improve your looks because YOU want to improve them, great. If you want to improve your looks by losing weigh because it is healthy, good for you. If you want to make yourself more attractive, develop a strong self-love and a confidence in yourself until you glow.

snoopy13a

2009-08-14, 02:49 PM

I guess I don't know what to do. He and I have talked about it, and he doesn't understand why I can't just chill and accept that he likes me fine as I am. I know I can't be the best at everything for him, and that I should be doing things for myself, etc... But that doesn't really sink in. So, I guess I either need tips on how to lose weight and get rid of my acne and deal with ridiculously frizzy hair, or advice on how to calm the hell down. :smalltongue:

1) Hair: If your boyfriend hated your frizzy hair then he likely wouldn't have dated you in the first place. Totally unkempt long hair (like you'd see in a homeless man) is a turn off but I haven't heard any male friend or aquantance complain about frizzy hair. Ironically, I have heard complaints about short hair (especially from younger men).

2) Losing weight makes most people more attractive. The only exception is for people who are already at a normal weight who diet and become ultra skinny. There's a little bit of variation in men's taste here. Some men like "a little meat on the bones" while others prefer women on the skinnier side. Few men like ultra skinny women such as those suffering from eating disorders.

In order to lose weight you need to either diet and/or exercise or exercise while eating the same. Either way, you're going to have to burn calories than you eat. Simply exercising may not lead to weight loss as you can eat more to compensate for the calories burnt (Time magazine had a recent cover story on this).

3) Acne: If isn't a big problem then OTC stuff like Noxema, Clearasil, etc could help clear it up. If it heavy acne that is mostly from genetics then you could see a dermatogist about this. I believe that there are drugs that can help clean it up.

Dragonrider

2009-08-14, 02:55 PM

For the hair, neoclassic....

(:smalltongue: prepare for me to sound like an ad campaign. Also, a little crazy. This might feel counterintuitive, but it WORKS.)

DeeRee's Guide to Frizzy Hair.

Most super-frizzy hair is just curly hair that's been shampooed and brushed to death.

Witness me, circa 2005:
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t3/soggypoptart/My%20hair/Pre-CG--goodheavens.jpg

And then now:
I don't know why I look so unhappy in these.
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t3/soggypoptart/My%20hair/100_1655.jpg
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t3/soggypoptart/My%20hair/100_7950.jpg

The difference (apart from not being awkwardly 14 anymore) is that I don't brush or shampoo my hair. At all. Ever. It has, as a matter of fact, been three years since either has touched my hair. Instead, I use silicate-free conditioner (reading the labels - anything ending with -cone or -xane is bad; V05, White Rain, and Suave are all usually good). I fill my hair with conditioner, finger-comb it, and squeeze the excess out with my hands - no rinsing, no towel, no comb, no brush. Then I part it with my fingers and put a little bit of clear hair gel in. And try not to touch it while it dries.

....Radical enough? :smalltongue:

This is sort of a philosophical huge deal for some people. (http://www.naturallycurly.com/curltalk/showthread.php?t=14222) That web site irks me for that reason, but it's got good tips.

There's nothing "wrong" with frizzy hair, but it's usually a sign of unhealthy hair.

Edit: And on weight loss:

I...have issues with any kind of dieting solely for the purpose of looking better. An overwhelming majority of dieters return to their original weight within five years (I don't have a link for that statistic...but I've read it in several places...).

Pyrian

2009-08-14, 05:10 PM

Edit: And on weight loss:

I...have issues with any kind of dieting solely for the purpose of looking better. An overwhelming majority of dieters return to their original weight within five years (I don't have a link for that statistic...but I've read it in several places...).In What You Can Change and What You Can't, the author concluded that aside from truly morbid obesity, the only valid reason to lose weight was for a short term increase in attractiveness. (Many people cite heart attack risk, but weight loss in general and yo-yo dieting in particular are larger risk factors than simply being a bit heavy.)

So, y'know, I'm hoping to get a lot of sex in the next five years, and go for being one of those few people who manage to keep the weight off. :smallamused: It wouldn't be the first time I've bucked the odds... ("Never tell me the odds!")

Keld Denar

2009-08-14, 05:18 PM

A trick to lose a couple relatively quickly.

I dunno what your soda drinking habits are...but stop. Seriously. Cold turkey, give what you have away, and never touch another drop. I did this about 4 years ago now. For the first 6 months, I was losing over 5 lbs a month that I was keeping off. Just from that. No noticable change in my activity level, no other changes in my diet. Every time I had a craving for soda, I'd get a HUGE glass of water. Water is REALLY good for you. It not only hydrates, it flushes unwanted toxins and leftover "stuff" through your body. The good men at the government recommend like, 8 glasses a day, or something like that. Double it. Sure, its kinda a pain in the butt, cause ya gotta pee slightly more than normal, but its REALLY healthy. Soda, on the other hand, even DIET soda (there's an oxymoron), is incredibly bad for you. All of it spikes your insulin levels, encouraging your body to store energy as fat. This is bad. You want to keep that down as much as possible.

Another thing to do is dramatically increase your protein intake. The easiest and cheapest way to do this is protien shakes. Don't buy the pre-fabbed ones like Slimfast or Ensure or whatever. Go to a GNC or similar health suppliment store and buy a big 3# canister of like Chocolate (bout $40-50, or ~$0.40 a shake). Also, buy 1-2 of the 12 oz blender bottles (8-9 dollars each, reuseable), they are amazing and really make a difference. Now, mix up and drink 2 of these a day. The much of the extra protein will be passed through your body, but enough of it will stick. Protien builds muscles. Even the activities you do every day like going up stairs or walking through your house will help. Now, extra protien has some...side..effects...so you might also want to buy a powdered fiber suppliment like Benefiber or similar (bout $6 for enough to last a long time). Mix in 1-2 table spoons with your shake, you won't taste it (heck, I can't even taste it in water).

Lastly, try to do one thing that gets your heart rate up over ~100-120 beats per minute for even a couple minutes. Provided you aren't gonna get in trouble for jumping, something as simple as jumping jacks while watching a TV program is amazing. The program takes your mind off the fact that you are doing physical exercise. Even as little as 5 min of this a day will REALLY help, especially with an increase in protein intake. If you feel like doing more? Great. It'll only help.

If you have some real cash to burn, get a trainer. I'm serious. I was in decent shape, but wanted to improve. I worked out with a trainer 2 days a week and on my own once a week, and I had 6-pack abs in about 6 months. I was paying about $30 for a 1hour session, but he also gave me nutritional advise and the real kicker? I'm freakin paying $30 a session whether I go or not...thats too much money to throw away, so it wasn't hard to motivate myself! No "oh, I'm tired, I'll go to the gym tomorrow". Nope, tired or not, you go and get your butt kicked cause you already paid for it. But really, a pro trainer can kick your ass WAY harder than you can possibly by yourself unless you are INCREDIBLY disciplined, and even then, there's still a great degree of improvement. The cardio workouts I did were so intense, I was dripping sweat in seconds, and he pushed my weight training to a level I didn't think was possible. Trust me, I was skeptical at first, but my first month was AMAZING and I kept up with it until I got the results I wanted. I still went to the gym after I stopped training, but it was more to maintain than it was to improve. It is expensive, but if you can afford it, its SO worth it.

Dragonrider

2009-08-14, 09:05 PM

In What You Can Change and What You Can't, the author concluded that aside from truly morbid obesity, the only valid reason to lose weight was for a short term increase in attractiveness. (Many people cite heart attack risk, but weight loss in general and yo-yo dieting in particular are larger risk factors than simply being a bit heavy.)

So, y'know, I'm hoping to get a lot of sex in the next five years, and go for being one of those few people who manage to keep the weight off. :smallamused: It wouldn't be the first time I've bucked the odds... ("Never tell me the odds!")

I guess that's your game to play if that's what you want to do. :smalltongue:

(not meaning any cynicism. As long as you know the score.) :smallwink:

Pyrian

2009-08-14, 09:26 PM

I guess that's your game to play if that's what you want to do. :smalltongue:

(not meaning any cynicism. As long as you know the score.) :smallwink:Let's just say 2008 was a bit frustrating for me, dating-wise. :smallyuk: Thirty pounds down and just two more to go, I'm well past the point of not-a-good-idea-to-return. :smallcool:

The Neoclassic

2009-08-14, 10:07 PM

Thanks for all the great advice! I really appreciate it.

My first question for you, Neoclassic, is if you accomplished all those things, would you be satisfied, or would you just find more things to be unsatisfied with yourself about? What's your first, off-the-cuff, instinctive answer?f

I'd be satisfied. Or at least far closer to it.

When the morbidly obese person and the supermodel each complain about their need to lose weight, an objective observer can generally figure that one of them has a point and the other has an altogether different problem.

I'm in the middle. 5'6", 130 lbs. Two years ago, I was 110 lbs. I want to get back down to that weight. I think a month and a half is reasonable to get back down to at least 120 (which is how much time I'm giving myself).

In your particular case, my inclination is to say that you should believe your boyfriend when he tells you he likes you as you are. Because whose opinion of your sex appeal is more important than your significant other's?

I guess. But, still, I feel intimidated knowing that he thinks a lot of other girls are more attractive than me.

If you want to improve your looks because YOU want to improve them, great. If you want to improve your looks by losing weigh because it is healthy, good for you. If you want to make yourself more attractive, develop a strong self-love and a confidence in yourself until you glow.

Easier said than done. :smallwink: I'm smart enough, and fine socializing with people I know, but my boyfriend is very unhappy with me not being comfortable with strangers. And that I have a lowish self-esteem. But those aren't things I know how to fix. My self-confidence is better than it was, but... Still not good enough.

Losing weight makes most people more attractive. The only exception is for people who are already at a normal weight who diet and become ultra skinny. There's a little bit of variation in men's taste here. Some men like "a little meat on the bones" while others prefer women on the skinnier side. Few men like ultra skinny women such as those suffering from eating disorders.

My boyfriend likes huge boobs but a skinny body. Unfortunately, I am not built like that. Not at all. So I'm going to just go for the slender, because I can get closer to that.

In order to lose weight you need to either diet and/or exercise or exercise while eating the same. Either way, you're going to have to burn calories than you eat. Simply exercising may not lead to weight loss as you can eat more to compensate for the calories burnt (Time magazine had a recent cover story on this).

I know that "dieting" doesn't work. The current plan (which I've been sticking to decently) is eating half of my usual sized main dishes. This means a lot less bread, somewhat less meat, less cheese. I make up for some of that with more fruits, vegetables, yogurts, and granola bars. So far, I'm finding that I actually don't get very hungry from it; I think if I keep it up, it might work. I love food though. Intensely. So I'm giving myself two "Calorie-free" days a month where I can eat whatever I want. :smallbiggrin:

Acne: If isn't a big problem then OTC stuff like Noxema, Clearasil, etc could help clear it up.

Yeah, it's not awful. I'll have to pick up some new over-the counter stuff.

For the hair, neoclassic....

(:smalltongue: prepare for me to sound like an ad campaign. Also, a little crazy. This might feel counterintuitive, but it WORKS.)

DeeRee's Guide to Frizzy Hair.

Most super-frizzy hair is just curly hair that's been shampooed and brushed to death.

Witness me, circa 2005:
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t3/soggypoptart/Pre-CG--goodheavens.jpg

And then now:
I don't know why I look so unhappy in these.
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t3/soggypoptart/100_1655.jpg
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t3/soggypoptart/100_7613.jpg

The difference (apart from not being awkwardly 14 anymore) is that I don't brush or shampoo my hair. At all. Ever. It has, as a matter of fact, been three years since either has touched my hair. Instead, I use silicate-free conditioner (reading the labels - anything ending with -cone or -xane is bad; V05, White Rain, and Suave are all usually good). I fill my hair with conditioner, finger-comb it, and squeeze the excess out with my hands - no rinsing, no towel, no comb, no brush. Then I part it with my fingers and put a little bit of clear hair gel in. And try not to touch it while it dries.

....Radical enough? :smalltongue:

This is sort of a philosophical huge deal for some people. (http://www.naturallycurly.com/curltalk/showthread.php?t=14222) That web site irks me for that reason, but it's got good tips.

There's nothing "wrong" with frizzy hair, but it's usually a sign of unhealthy hair.

I will have to try that! Wow. Thanks for the suggestion!

I...have issues with any kind of dieting solely for the purpose of looking better. An overwhelming majority of dieters return to their original weight within five years (I don't have a link for that statistic...but I've read it in several places...).

I want to look better. I want to feel better. I don't think I'm crash-dieting, and once I get over my little self-esteem crisis, if I stick to it, I think it'll become a very healthy, natural eating pattern. I was consuming too many calories (especially from sugar and fat), and I hate exercise like the plague, so I wasn't burning any extras off.

I dunno what your soda drinking habits are...but stop. Seriously.

Unfortunately, I only drink soda once a month or so, which is negligible. :smallfrown:

Another thing to do is dramatically increase your protein intake. The easiest and cheapest way to do this is protien shakes.

So, diet soda is bad for me, but goodness-knows-what-goes-into-those-things protein shakes are good? :smallwink: More seriously, I am trying to eat more protein (well, in comparison with carbs). I don't think I want to spend the money on protein shakes, or eat whatever odd stuff is in them, but I will try to have more lean meats (those are good, right?).

Lastly, try to do one thing that gets your heart rate up over ~100-120 beats per minute for even a couple minutes.

More exercise, even short-lived. Got it. Does sex count? :smallbiggrin:

If you have some real cash to burn, get a trainer.

I'm a poor college student. I appreciate the suggestion though.

Of course, this still leaves me with "How the heck do I feel comfortable around people who are strangers to me but all know each other when my boyfriend wants to take me to parties with his friends?" The parties do have booze oftentimes, which can be a social lubricant, but he despises the consumption of alcohol! :smallyuk: So that option is out.

THAC0

2009-08-14, 10:15 PM

The Neoclassic

2009-08-14, 10:17 PM

110 isn't a very healthy weight for someone who is 5'6". I wouldn't go lower than 120.

My doctor never said it was unhealthy, and I looked awesome. Still had plenty of squish on my thighs and tummy too...

THAC0

2009-08-14, 10:24 PM

My doctor never said it was unhealthy, and I looked awesome. Still had plenty of squish on my thighs and tummy too...

Of course, everyone is different, but 5'6" and 110lbs is classified as underweight by BMI.

ETA: If squish is your problem, that will be better addressed by exercise and toning which might actually add weight, muscle being heavier than squish in general.

Keld Denar

2009-08-14, 11:11 PM

More exercise, even short-lived. Got it. Does sex count? :smallbiggrin:
YES! Oh god yes. Sex is really good for your heart. The rest of your body...well, that depends a lot on your positions, but mostly not. Still, it does get your heart rate up significantly for a goodly bit of time, depending on circumstances. And its FUN too! I don't think I know anyone who complains about a good roll in the sheets like they do about going to the gym!

As far as the protien shakes. Go to a GNC or other health suppliment store and check out a container. Most of them are either 100% or dang close to 100% whey protein. Its completely natural. And its seriously not that expensive, when you figure it out on a per-shake basis, especially when you compare it to the premade shakes like Slimfast. Its more natural than those too. I'm serious, depending on the quality you buy, you could be paying anywhere between $.15 and $.40 a shake, which is hardly oppressive on any budget. If you buy online, you could probably get even better deals. I'd look some up for ya, but I dunno what country you live in...and my internet is being SUPER slow right now. Really though, a 3# container will last you like, 3 months at 2/day. That means a $30 container is $.16 a shake and a $50 container is about $.27 a shake. One protein shake contains ~ 200g of protein. Whats excess, your body will filter and remove naturally. Make sure you get as close to 100% protien as you can get, because some suppliments are formulated with a lot of extra carbs and fats that you won't need, given your active level.

Of course, this still leaves me with "How the heck do I feel comfortable around people who are strangers to me but all know each other when my boyfriend wants to take me to parties with his friends?" The parties do have booze oftentimes, which can be a social lubricant, but he despises the consumption of alcohol! :smallyuk: So that option is out.

So, your BF doesn't like to drink? Or doesn't like you to drink? Or both? Assuming you are of the responsible age, and practice safe habits, he shouldn't force you to not do as you want. If he doesn't partake, thats his own priority (and your boon! sober driver!!!), but he should not dictate what you can and can not do. Maybe this is something you should discuss at some point. It just sounds kinda...controlling. If you feel that partaking in a reasonable amount will help you enjoy yourself, let him know. I mean, if hes gonna take you to a party you'd otherwise not enjoy, he shouldn't have a problem with you taking steps to enjoy yourself. I'm not saying you should get sloppy at the first opportunity, but forbidding you seems a lot harsh.

Cyrano

2009-08-14, 11:16 PM

YES! Oh god yes.

I found this very amusing, although I'm not entirely sure if it was intentional.

snoopy13a

2009-08-14, 11:17 PM

I'm in the middle. 5'6", 130 lbs. Two years ago, I was 110 lbs. I want to get back down to that weight. I think a month and a half is reasonable to get back down to at least 120 (which is how much time I'm giving myself).

I guess. But, still, I feel intimidated knowing that he thinks a lot of other girls are more attractive than me.

Easier said than done. :smallwink: I'm smart enough, and fine socializing with people I know, but my boyfriend is very unhappy with me not being comfortable with strangers. And that I have a lowish self-esteem. But those aren't things I know how to fix. My self-confidence is better than it was, but... Still not good enough.

Of course, this still leaves me with "How the heck do I feel comfortable around people who are strangers to me but all know each other when my boyfriend wants to take me to parties with his friends?" The parties do have booze oftentimes, which can be a social lubricant, but he despises the consumption of alcohol! :smallyuk: So that option is out.

1) You're not overweight. 110 pounds would likely be too unhealthy and it could result in the female marathon runner look which most men do not find attractive.

2) Unless your boyfriend happens to be Brad Pitt or Matt Damon there are plenty of men more attractive than him. Try to remember that as well. :smalltongue:

3) The fact that your boyfriend is "very unhappy" about you being uncomfortable around strangers is a red flag to me. Introversion isn't something that can be changed, it is just the way people are. If he can't accept your personality then it is his problem not yours.

4) Reading between the lines about alcohol and the parties is also sending up a red flag for me. I'm getting the impression that you'd like to have a couple of drinks when you go out but don't because of your boyfriend's disapproval.

Secondly, you don't have to regulary socialize with your boyfriend's friends. They are his friends not necessarily yours. Especially as since you still refer to them as strangers that you probably don't have a lot in common with them or like them. Next time he wants to take you to a party with his friends say that you'd rather spend time (by yourself) with one of your friends. He shouldn't have a problem with that as you aren't a party accessory for him. If he does have an issue then that is a huge red flag.

Renegade Paladin

2009-08-14, 11:26 PM

Well, to add to the mess that was my situation at the end of the last thread, she discovered today (well, technically yesterday now, I suppose) that she's contracted herpes. I'm glad I resisted now, but damn. We know each other so well that we predict each other's movements (makes fencing against her hard, let me tell you) and finish each other's sentences. I'm doing my best to comfort her, but emotionally she's an absolute wreck right now. :smallfrown: I'm doing everything I can, but really, what do you say?

Keld Denar

2009-08-15, 12:08 AM

I actually did a TON of research on this when my best friend got herpes. She was pretty torn up too. The good news is, as far as physical symptoms go, herpies is about the least uncomfortable STI. Not that its a walk in the park, but most people seldom have more than 1 outbreak a year, fewer if they are on suppressive therapy. Bigger is the social stigmata. Now, this affects single people more, but you mentioned that shes married. She'll probably have to curb the bulk of her "open marriage" activities, or at least make it known. There are actually pretty sizable communties of people with Herpies looking for other people with Herpies, if you poke around on the interwebs.

But yea...there isn't much you can do other than be there and be supportive. You can't just say "well, it could be worse, it could be AIDs", cause that'll probaby get you stabbed. Especially since she knows her way around the sharps!

My advice, be there, be her friend, offer hugs as required, etc. Just don't get too caught up. I dunno if you are interested in someone else, but it might help if you occupy yourself with the persuit of another. That way, you and her can keep your closeness and she'll know that you are offlimits. Heck, you can even conspire together to get you hooked up. Most women like that kinda thing, and it'll help take both of your minds off her sorrow.

Eventually, shes just going to have to come to acceptance of it. It sucks, but its not that bad. She'll find that herself with time.

Pyrian

2009-08-15, 12:16 AM

I'm in the middle. 5'6", 130 lbs. Two years ago, I was 110 lbs. I want to get back down to that weight. I think a month and a half is reasonable to get back down to at least 120 (which is how much time I'm giving myself).That's too little time. At your weight you shouldn't be shedding more than 1.5 pounds a week, and probably closer to 1. But, also, if there's any catch, if something you try doesn't work, and so on, you'll miss your goal pretty easily, and that's discouraging. Especially when you're playing with "soft" strategies, you need some time to experiment to see what works for you, which might very well be different from what works for other people.

...my boyfriend is very unhappy with me not being comfortable with strangers. And that I have a lowish self-esteem.He criticizes you for having a low self-esteem? Oh, that's helpful. :smallamused:

My boyfriend likes huge boobs but a skinny body.:smallannoyed: Men! Doesn't he know that in nature they grow more or less together? (Random fact: I thought huge breasts were great right up until I had a girlfriend with huge breasts and I found that I didn't really like them so much in practice. Go figure.)

I know that "dieting" doesn't work.Dieting works if you do it. It's keeping the weight off over the years that's particularly difficult (it requires a lot of determination and exercise).

So, diet soda is bad for me, but goodness-knows-what-goes-into-those-things protein shakes are good? :smallwink:Diet soda isn't strictly speaking health food, but it's low enough in calories that it's not really comparable to sugary soda at all, nutritionally. Stay away from the protein shakes unless you're (A) going for a true very-low-carbohydrate diet or (B) doing serious weight training.

More exercise, even short-lived. Got it. Does sex count? :smallbiggrin:It certainly can, but doesn't necessarily. :smallcool:

Of course, this still leaves me with "How the heck do I feel comfortable around people who are strangers to me but all know each other when my boyfriend wants to take me to parties with his friends?"Buck up and suffer through a few times until you do know them better, I suppose.

Tiger Duck

2009-08-15, 03:50 AM

Update:
Talked to the girl, but we have nothing in common. It was embarrassing all around.

Serpentine

2009-08-15, 05:04 AM

Um... Am I the only one who perked up at the fact that Neoclassic's boyfriend told her his ex was better-looking and better in bed? :smallconfused: That sounds... not good, to me.
And I dislike "dieting" :smallyuk: You should have a good diet. Eat well. There's only one "diet" worth worrying about: Plenty of veggies and fruit, some meat (or very good stubstitutes), more fish than, I think, most people eat (or very good stubstitutes) enough carbohydrates to fuel your body, little "bad fat" and processed sugars, and all the stuff you need for all the vitamins, minerals and so on your body needs - all of which, of course, vary from person to person, but the basics are the same. It's not rocket surgery.

The hard bit is sticking to it <.<

Also, 5'6" and 110lb when you thought you looked good, is that right? First of all: The BMI is not very reliable, as it varies with body type and muscle mass and the like. But it is pretty good for generalisations I'm 2 inches taller than you. When I weighed 68kg (~150lb), I was dead-set in the middle of the BMI "healthy weight", and my mother (who a couple of years later told me "You're getting fat!") said I was "slender. If I was 55kg, I would be emaciated. 65kg sounds... maybe a touch on the soft-around-the-middle side of things, depending on your body shape - MAYBE, personally I doubt it - but hardly huge. I'm aiming for between 70 and 75, myself, cuz I've grown since I was 68kg and I've got a bigger bum and boobs.

Hecktar

2009-08-15, 05:59 AM

Update:
Talked to the girl, but we have nothing in common. It was embarrassing all around.

Good!

Well, do you feel better knowing that you tried and it didn't work out? Or did you prefer the way you felt before torturing yourself with possibility? Honest question. I am like that too often too, let opportunities go by when I shouldn't but, I've been rejected more than once in the same day! Haha. Doesn't feel very bad at all to me now if it's someone I don't know. Getting rejected by someone you let yourself become attached to, now that still sucks a lot.

Edit: Honestly, also, it's not like you ruined anything. You see her again, talk to her again. Don't put so much pressure on yourself to 'make something of it.' A bad first impression isn't the end of the world unless you let it be.

Syka

2009-08-15, 09:58 AM

I caught that too Serp. :smallconfused: Going on what you've told us and, admittedly, reading between some lines (both of which can be misleading but definitely aren't always) it doesn't sound like an entirely healthy relationship.

You don't compare lovers, least of all unfavorably to your current lover (and at least not out loud), and while one can make comments one should not imply those comments about physical features make you less attractive than a former lover.

Oz recently mentioned (in an in context conversation) he'd prefers flatter stomachs, but he also recognizes that I'm healthy and even though in theory my body type makes it not that difficult to achieve, in practice that's a bit different, and it would likely take away from the features he loves even more. He didn't make me feel bad about it, unlike my ex who told me he really didn't like my stomach.

Oz phrased it in a positive manner, the ex did not. There is a big difference in it's subsequent effects on self-image.

Not too mention it sounds like you WANT to drink but he's basically forbidden it? Oz also doesn't like drinking, but one reason why he's adament about me not drinking is he knows I don't really want to AND there's a good health reason for me not to without doctors supervision. This is fine with me since, as I said, I don't want to. If he knew I wanted to, we'd have to have a serious conversation regarding our relationship (since after dating me, the first non-drinker, he really doesn't want to deal with dating a recreational drinker again for personal reasons).

And I think you guys do too.

It sounds like either he's not communicating well or that he is a controlling, or has the red flags of being controlling. That is not good. At all. For reals.

As for being more comfortable with strangers, I'd first try baby steps. Like in class, approach someone you don't know about a class topic. Once you are good with that, approach someone at a random spot on campus and strike up a conversation. After some good conversations like that you may be more comfortable joining your boyfriend's friend's conversations.

Tiger Duck

2009-08-15, 10:09 AM

Good!

Well, do you feel better knowing that you tried and it didn't work out? Or did you prefer the way you felt before torturing yourself with possibility? Honest question. I am like that too often too, let opportunities go by when I shouldn't but, I've been rejected more than once in the same day! Haha. Doesn't feel very bad at all to me now if it's someone I don't know. Getting rejected by someone you let yourself become attached to, now that still sucks a lot.

Edit: Honestly, also, it's not like you ruined anything. You see her again, talk to her again. Don't put so much pressure on yourself to 'make something of it.' A bad first impression isn't the end of the world unless you let it be.

No honestly I would have preferred saying nothing, cherishing the possibilities and eventually forgetting about her.

evil-frosty

2009-08-15, 10:35 AM

Thats interesting Happy you would rather be ignorant? Most people would like to know so that they dont always wonder what if. Maybe the saying ignorance is bliss in this situation? But i have a feeling that it is referring to different types of situations.

Tiger Duck

2009-08-15, 10:48 AM

I think I feel this way because mistakes I make stick with me indefinitely but I forget all good things I do eventually. And I forget possibilities even faster.

Dragonrider

2009-08-15, 11:29 AM

I'm in the middle. 5'6", 130 lbs. Two years ago, I was 110 lbs. I want to get back down to that weight. I think a month and a half is reasonable to get back down to at least 120 (which is how much time I'm giving myself).

the old adage, which is probably completely wrong, is 5 pounds for every inch over 5 feet (and 100 pounds), which gives 135 as being "normal" for someone of your height. It does vary from person to person - I'm 5'2" and at my lowest "adult" weight of 120, my ribs were visible through my shirt. Icky.

Also: It is normal (and good) for women to gain between 20 and 30 pounds (sometimes more) after puberty. Also soft bits are largely genetic. You may not like it, but it's probably how you're "supposed" to be.

Keld Denar

2009-08-15, 11:30 AM

What I'd recommend doing now, or soon, is to sit down and reflect. WHY were things uncomfortable? Did she not look you in the eyes? Did you not look her in the eyes? Did you have trouble finding conversation material? Did you ask her questions about herself? Did she fail to reciprocate? Was she busy at the moment and unable to give you her full attention? These are all things that may have contibuted to a less than desired outcome of the conversation. Try to identify it. Maybe it was something you said that turned her off. Maybe shes just shy.

Plan. Act. Reflect. Analyze. Learn. Grow. Repeat.

Pyrian

2009-08-15, 12:17 PM

Talked to the girl, but we have nothing in common.
WHY were things uncomfortable?:smalltongue:

Most people would like to know so that they dont always wonder what if.I used to think if I was just confident enough to talk to women I'd've done a lot better. Now I realize that it mostly just saved me a lot of rejection. :smallcool: ...Would still rather know, though.

xPANCAKEx

2009-08-15, 01:06 PM

Neoclassic

i'm gunna have to side with serp and syka here - those comments stuck out for me too. The looks thing - if you're happy with the way you look, then thats going to have to be good enough for him. Only change for yourself.

the "better in bed" thing - if hes not ever offered any constructive advice, made suggestions, or asked you to do anything different, then quite fankly he can shove it. Everyones bedroom routine is different, and different people have wildly different turn ons and turns off. If you wish to progress as a couple then he should be willing to ask you for something if he wants you to try it. You're not psychic after all

Captain Happy

by talking to her, you've not made a mistake. The only mistake you're making is focusing on the negatives, and that you can rectifty. Sure it didn't work out, but it not like its going to cause you life long embarressment. You can beat yourself up about it, but that would be unhealthy.

Look at the positives - you had the guts to talk to a total stranger, not knowing how it would work out, and you've walked away without turning into a jibbering wreck. You can DEFINATELY keep your head held high on this one.

If you still need to let off steam about it, go out with some friends for drinks, hang out, tell them the story of how you made a "total ass of yourself" (literally blow it out of all proportions - make yourself sound like a total clueless - make up spurious lies if you have to - preferably including sharks and exploding monkeys) - just so you can laugh at yourself for a for minutes. Laughing at yourself in such situations for half an our down the pub/round a friends house over a few drinks soon saps away any sense of shame/misplaced guilt you may feel about it. Trust me

Then you'll realise its wasn't that bad,and actually have nothing to worry about, so you'll soon be getting on with things with a new sense of self confidence. so don't let it hold you back, and get on with having fun

Tiger Duck

2009-08-15, 03:41 PM

I want to thank everyone in this tread for being so supportive. And all the good advice I've been given.
You're all amazingly awesome peoples. It was embarrassing but now the 'healing' can begin.:smallwink:

Mr. Mud

2009-08-15, 05:17 PM

Is it out of reality to ask an SO who else he or she is texting/on the phone with?

Basically, should I be allowed to know :smallconfused:?

Pyrian

2009-08-15, 05:43 PM

Are you, like, right there communicating with her at the time, or do you mean you want to know about all her personal contacts ever? It's really just like anybody else in my opinion; nothing wrong with casually asking "Who was that on the phone?" or some such, but don't kid yourself that you have a right to the information, nevermind the stalker/abusive SO-level of demanding to know every contact, all the time.

Keld Denar

2009-08-15, 05:53 PM

Depends on the degree, IMO. People have lives outside of their relationships, and have friends, both male and female. Its also ok to feel a little jealousy about the person you love. Its almost instinctual.

Trust is quinessential in a relationship though. If you don't feel secure about her actions, maybe you need to talk to her. Don't be accusative, but make it known that you are a little concerned. Its not an easy subject to broach though, so tread carefully. Still, the two of you should be able to talk things out openly and honestly. If you can't, maybe thats a warning flag?

Umael

2009-08-15, 06:33 PM

Neoclassic:

Honey, I'm 5'6" and 130lbs, or at least, I was for about half of my life. At this point in time, I think I might have put on a few pounds (five? maybe?), although my friends still tease me with "skinny" jokes.

("So, is it true that you have to run around in the shower to actually get wet?" "Can't be. If he's not careful, he's slip down the drain!" "...thanks, guys.")

It might be because you are female, and it might be that your body type does better with less weight, but frankly, I would want to see pictures and judge for myself before I would consider you anywhere near "needing to lose a few pounds".

Captain Happy:

It might not seem like it now, but your experience of actually going up and talking to her will help give you the confidence to go up to more strangers in a bid in getting to know them. Over time, it will get easier, and it will be more rewarding.

Rule of thumb on rejection: 95%. I.e., you need a nat 20.

Mr. Mud:

That depends.

Are you asking because your SO isn't paying attention to you?
Are you asking because you are insecure and worried that your SO is cheating on you?
Are you asking because you're just curious?
Are you asking because your SO might be talking to someone to whom you want to talk as well and you want her to pass on a message?
Are you asking because you are worried that your SO is plotting a surprise birthday party for you and you hate surprises?

Also, how would it be if the situation was reversed, keeping in mind that even if it is one way for you doesn't mean that it will be that way with the SO?

Keld Denar

2009-08-15, 06:39 PM

Are you asking because you are worried that your SO is plotting a surprise birthday party for you and you hate surprises?
I hate those stinkin surprise parties. They always catch you off guard just when you are thinkin "Woe is me, my friends all forgot my birthday. Maybe I'll just go home and sulk for a bit. Huh, there sure are a lot of cars around. Why is my home dark?" And then everyone jumps out from behind the couch nekkid yelling SURPRISE!

Hate...

*grumble* *grumble*

Cyrano

2009-08-15, 06:42 PM

I hate those stinkin surprise parties. They always catch you off guard just when you are thinkin "Woe is me, my friends all forgot my birthday. Maybe I'll just go home and sulk for a bit. Huh, there sure are a lot of cars around. Why is my home dark?" And then everyone jumps out from behind the couch nekkid yelling SURPRISE!

Hate...

*grumble* *grumble*

Ah, to have such troubles.

Also, your friends throw surprise naked birthday parties?

arguskos

2009-08-15, 06:44 PM

Ah, to have such troubles.

Also, your friends throw surprise naked birthday parties?
If you've got the right friends, that might turn out pretty awesome. I'd approve, at least (except that one friend I've got who weighs over 300 lbs... ugh).

Neko Toast

2009-08-15, 10:16 PM

RabbitHoleLost

2009-08-15, 10:18 PM

Anyone have any advice for those who own the title of the "third leg"?

I'm actually at a convention right now where this is happening. It's me, two friends who are dating, and the female friend's brother. Every time they cuddle or get close or show affection towards each other, my mind just shuts down emotionally and socially. I either avoid all eye contact and clam up, or I simply leave the room (we got a fancy room, so the living area is separate from the bedroom).

There are more complicated circumstances behind this, but those aren't necessary for this thread. I just want to know how others deal with being the odd one out.

I go find other people to hang out with.
As calloused as that sounds, Draco, you're in the middle of a convention, filled with other people I assume share your interests.
So, while I'm not there to make out with you infront of these friends (:smalltongue:), there are plenty of people to meet and have fun with.
And maybe make out with.

Neko Toast

2009-08-15, 10:21 PM

I go find other people to hang out with.
As calloused as that sounds, Draco, you're in the middle of a convention, filled with other people I assume share your interests.
So, while I'm not there to make out with you infront of these friends (:smalltongue:), there are plenty of people to meet and have fun with.
And maybe make out with.

There really isn't, Rabbit... the hotel we're staying at is separate from the hotel where the con takes place. I can't simply go downstairs and find cosplayers to hang out with (also impossible since I have no cosplay for this con). Plus, I'm not so great with social situations...

These feelings just feel worse than they actually are. Depression has a tendency to do that.

Keld Denar

2009-08-15, 10:45 PM

Can you take some kind of public transportaiton to get back and forth to the convention area? I mean...if they want to sit in their hotel room and play makeouts, thats fun. You paid con fees and I'm guessing you want to get your money's worth. Taxi's generally aren't that expensive on short jaunts, and if you meet a bunch of people, maybe you'll meet others at the con who are staying in the same hotel who'll help you split costs when you are ready to go home at the end of the night.

And trust me...being social at a convention (gaming, anime, cosplay, anything geeky) is about the EASIEST thing to do. Seriously...just walk up to a group of people and say something like "Kefka could TOTALLY take Sepheroth in a fight", and your new found friends will regail you with every concieveable piece of information ever printed, said, or seen. Seriously. You are ALL socially inept geeks, EMBRACE IT! <3

Especially if your gender symbol is correct. Most women at conventions can make a lot of friends really easily just by acting moderately interested, because frankly, the ratio of dude geeks to chick geeks is depressingly low. If you are genuinely interested (which I'd assume, since you are at a con) and moderately knowledgable (again, I'm gonna assume you are), then you shouldn't have any issues meeting others at a con.

zeratul

2009-08-15, 11:34 PM

I found this very amusing, although I'm not entirely sure if it was intentional.

yeah me too. xD

Felixaar

2009-08-15, 11:54 PM

Anyone have any advice for those who own the title of the "third leg"?

I'm actually at a convention right now where this is happening. It's me, two friends who are dating, and the female friend's brother. Every time they cuddle or get close or show affection towards each other, my mind just shuts down emotionally and socially. I either avoid all eye contact and clam up, or I simply leave the room (we got a fancy room, so the living area is separate from the bedroom).

There are more complicated circumstances behind this, but those aren't necessary for this thread. I just want to know how others deal with being the odd one out.

Find something solo to do. I, for instance, play video games.

Hecktar

2009-08-16, 12:44 AM

Anyone have any advice for those who own the title of the "third leg"?

Before I read the rest of your post/saw your sign I completely thought you meant you had a peen that was too big. LOL

I wouldn't have been able to help you with that problem anyways...:smalleek::smallredface:

Anyway, I know the feeling. Must be worse when you're on an actual trip where you are in their company more often. Is the girl's brother a complete dipstick or something, heh? Hang out with him?

Gem Flower

2009-08-16, 11:11 AM

xPANCAKEx

2009-08-16, 11:37 AM

Gem Flower

in an ideal world you would have said "sorry, im not into you" when he said he had a crush on you... but in an ideal world he would have also taken the hint from you not making an effort

the lesson to learn is you can never be too clear when letting someone down. Hints just don't cut it, even the rediculously obvious ones. If you find yourself in such a situation in future, have a polite word and let who ever it is know that they are making you uncomfortable. You may hurt a few feelings along the way, but sometimes this unavoidable, and you have to be selfish at times. Nip it in the bud early, and then their feelings won't have time to develop too much, and it will be easier for them to 'get over' (if they need to).

don't beat yourself up over this - its a learning experiance

so just remember:
be firm and clear if you don't feel the same
let them know EARLY
if someone makes you uncomfortable, let them know and ask them to stop
be "selfish" if you have to - your feelings always come first

Keld Denar

2009-08-16, 11:49 AM

Gem Flower

Honestly, without hearing more details, it doesn't sound like you did anything wrong. You were being friendly, he precieved it as more, expressed interest, and you weren't interested in more. This is a fairly common occurance, especially at camps. I went to a TON of summer camps growing up, and hormones + being far from home with strangers + general summer camp atmosphere leads to a lot of crushing.

The thing that concerns me is his behavior. Stalking is NOT cool. My suggestion to you would be to say something to him. Make sure its just the 2 of you, but in some place open like a field or courtyard or other very visible place where no one can overhear you. Express yourself clearly that you are not interested in him like that and that his actions are making you uncomfortable. Stress that he is making you uncomfortable. Don't say anything to the others, or do anything that might embarass him publicly. If he doesn't stop, I'd recommend talking to one of the camp staff. They generally have people trained to handle things like this. Learning to deal with emotions and others emotions is a major part of growing up.

But yea...you shouldn't let anyone control your life. Address it maturely, and if you have issues, then seek help. I'd like to tell you this will be the last time in your life that people someone will misinterpret friendship as more, or fail to recognize more as friendship, but I can't. Thats life. People are funny like that. Its not your fault. Learn from this though. Don't be any less friendly or open or empathic to anyone, but learn to recognize when someone might be developing feelings you don't reciprocate so you can head it off before it becomes a problem.

Hope this helps! Enjoy camp!

Gem Flower

2009-08-16, 12:33 PM

RabbitHoleLost

2009-08-16, 12:36 PM

Gem: Like the others have said, talk to him about it. Ask him politely for some space.
And if he still continues to never leave you alone, go to an adult with your concern.
Its a little much, I know, but if you don't feel safe anymore, this is an issue which needs to be addressed.

Ninja Chocobo

2009-08-16, 05:24 PM

Er...
Forgive me, but that really doesn't sound like stalking to me.
I remember going to camps and stuff with a friend from school, 'cause our parents were unimaginative when it came to holiday entertainment.
I remember:
Sitting next to him in every class (or activity or what have you).
Eating next to him in every meal.
And sleeping near him in the same cabin.

It wasn't stalking, it was, y'know, friendship.
What exactly makes this different?

Is it because:
A. He is a man.
B. She is a woman.
C. A and B.
D. He had previously expressed romantic interest in her. (And doesn't the thread always say this shouldn't be an issue when it comes to friendship?)
E. Other (please describe).

Keld Denar

2009-08-16, 05:36 PM

What I picked up from it was that when she thought it was just friendship, it was fun to hang out together and be friendly like. Then he got attached and told her so, she rebuffed him, and he didn't take it well. He started following her around awkwardly, sitting next to her, standing outside her cabin, etc and generally creeping her out. Kinda like having a lost puppy follow you around, it kinda makes you feel guilty because you are part of the reason he feels that way.

Tja, looks like what we have is a future professional heartbreaker! j/k!!!!

Serpentine

2009-08-16, 10:41 PM

Keld's interpretation may be correct, and if so that is pretty creepy.
What I thought, and that, Gem, I don't think you need to worry about, is simply that he liked you. When you like someone, you want to hang out with them all the time. That, in itself, isn't a problem. Especially as you said you two were "nigh inseperable" - perhaps that changed for you, but not for him? That is, he was doing the same things as before his confession, but for you the situation had changed and "nigh inseperable" had become "he won't leave me alone"? In any case, it wouldn't have been unreasonable to request that, say, he hang out with some of his other friends for a while.

Coidzor

2009-08-17, 01:23 AM

I find violence to be a cause of and solution to many of life's great mysteries.

...or was that alcohol? :smallconfused:

In any event, hopefully you won't have to shiv him or get someone else to shiv him, but if he backs you into a corner...

Felixaar

2009-08-17, 08:19 AM

Gem, what're the chances you'll really ever see him again? At any rate, that's life. If it continues, tell him to piss off.

You could us kinder words if you feel like it :smalltongue:

onasuma

2009-08-17, 02:24 PM

Hey people,

Id quite like to have a word (and potental rant) with/at someone via either Pm or my email (daemonhost(at)hotmail.co.uk). It would be very appreciated.

Well, Ive got someone to talk to now, so Ill line through this here post.

Jalor

2009-08-17, 06:50 PM

I wasn't exactly sure where to put this, but I figured this was the closest thing to what I was looking for...

I just got back from a two week camp. It was a branch of an organization which we are not allowed to date at and signed contracts to that effects, and since it was sleep-away, technically nobody should have found a relationship there, but the staff didn't really enforce the rule as long as there were always six inches between people. Five or six days before camp ended, a guy I kind of knew came up to me and said "Didn't I kill you?" and that's how our friendship started. We were nigh inseparable for two days and went through a lot of teasing from people who said we were going out. I never had any interest in him romantically, but he told me the next day that he had a crush on me. Although I had somewhat guessed it when all my friends were whispering whenever I was around and kept asking him when he was going to tell me, suddenly the rather perverted jokes he always made seemed inappropriate as I now suspected they were not in the spirit of friendship. This still wouldn't have been a huge problem except that he started stalking me. He had to sit beside me at every meal, in every class, and he actually waited outside my cabin until bedtime. I didn't even feel safe around him anymore. He was extremely emotionally fragile, although because that didn't start until I knew him well, I think he just wanted the attention. Looking back, I'm kind of worried that I led him on at the beginning or gave off the wrong impression, even though I think I made it pretty clear that I wasn't interested in him that way. I'm wondering if I did the right thing, and if anyone out there has some advice, I'd really appreciate it.
Short answer: No. You didn't do the worst thing, but you jumped to a ridiculous conclusion. I've been there myself and would rather give advice to the poor guy than you.

Long answer: No. I was once on the other end of a similar situation. The girl in question was my friend, and we were in fact nigh inseparable. I developed an attraction to her, and she somehow found out. She started avoiding me, taking crazy roundabout routes to walk to class and the like. I didn't know she knew about it, and thought she was mad at me for some reason. I kept trying to speak to her, but she slipped away every time. One day I tried to catch her in a public place, and she exploded. She accused me of stalking her and trying to rape her, in a crowded cafeteria in full view of my classmates and teachers. She took out an actual restraining order against me, and for the rest of my life I will be "that creepy rapist guy" to everyone there. She had also borrowed my Firefly DVDs a few days before, and never returned them. That was the beginning to the worst year of my life. It set off many of the other events, most of which I won't discuss of this forum. It's been hard for me to even work up the nerve to tell this one, which I can usually laugh about now.

Heh, the kicker to the story is that she ran into me a month ago at the grocery store, and didn't recognize me. The restraining order was still in effect, but we actually hit it off. I mentioned Firefly and Ender's Game, which I introduced her to, and she said she loved them. I also got her number. I haven't called yet, but I have a plan for when I do. I'll lead her on for several months, borrow her Firefly DVDs, and then break her heart.

Renegade Paladin

2009-08-17, 07:10 PM

Bad idea; she'd then nail you to the wall for breaking the restraining order.
_____________________________

*Sigh* Well, that did it, and I suppose I'm as much to blame as anyone. I went to her house on Saturday afternoon to keep her company so she wouldn't be alone with the disease and her depressive thoughts. The required hugs turned into about three hours of cuddling (but no more than that) while she cried it out. Nothing's happened still (and it's going to stay that way), but we've bonded more than ever. It's going to be hard to put the brakes on it now, and the hell of it is, at this point I'm not sure I want to.

xPANCAKEx

2009-08-17, 08:18 PM

Long answer: No. I was once on the other end of a similar situation. The girl in question was my friend, and we were in fact nigh inseparable. I developed an attraction to her, and she somehow found out. She started avoiding me, taking crazy roundabout routes to walk to class and the like. I didn't know she knew about it, and thought she was mad at me for some reason. I kept trying to speak to her, but she slipped away every time. One day I tried to catch her in a public place, and she exploded. She accused me of stalking her and trying to rape her, in a crowded cafeteria in full view of my classmates and teachers. She took out an actual restraining order against me, and for the rest of my life I will be "that creepy rapist guy" to everyone there. She had also borrowed my Firefly DVDs a few days before, and never returned them. That was the beginning to the worst year of my life. It set off many of the other events, most of which I won't discuss of this forum. It's been hard for me to even work up the nerve to tell this one, which I can usually laugh about now.

Heh, the kicker to the story is that she ran into me a month ago at the grocery store, and didn't recognize me. The restraining order was still in effect, but we actually hit it off. I mentioned Firefly and Ender's Game, which I introduced her to, and she said she loved them. I also got her number. I haven't called yet, but I have a plan for when I do. I'll lead her on for several months, borrow her Firefly DVDs, and then break her heart.

assuming all the above is true (its an honest account/my sarcasm detector isn't off the mark) - firstly, why didn't you sue her for slander - unfounded very public accusation like that can have all sorts of long term repocussions
secondly stop. desist. don't be an idiot. read this following bit carefully: STAY AS FAR AWAY FROM THE GIRL AS POSSIBLE. Cease all and any contant. This is 3-fold. A) a restraining order b) she doesn't sound like a great person to be around c) REALLY? do you really think thats at all even remotely wise.

Erloas

2009-08-17, 08:40 PM

Gem Flower: I would tend to agree with Ninja Chocobo and Jalor on this one.

It sounds like you guys did a lot together for a couple days. You were fine with what he said and how he acted then he said he liked you and then suddenly everything he did, which didn't really change, was "creepy and stalkerish."

Usually the "I don't feel the same way about you" sort of conversation also includes something like "I just want to be friends." In which case him acting like he did the first day when you were friends would in theory be pefectly fine.

As for waiting for you by your cabin, if he wanted to talk to you about anything and you were going out of your way to avoid him it is about the only chance he would have without making a scene in front of people. Even if it was something as simple as trying to clear the air.

As for stalking, if you saw him all over the place it really isn't quite the same thing. You were eating in the same place at the same time probably anyway, it was just a matter of where he sat. Its not like he was hiding by your cabin and sneaking up on you while you were alone (or at least it didn't sound like it from your post). It didn't sound like he was trying to get information from your friends like where you lived and went to school and what your phone number is and stuff like that.

Considering the timeframe of everything and the apparent ages it seems nieve to not have expected him to be attracted to you.

There is also a big difference in people's actions compared to their age. If someone was doing stuff like that and they were 30 you would have a good reason to think it was creepy. If you are a teenager, well its those sorts of ackward things that happen all the time that teaches people not to do that in the future. Which admittidely doesn't make it any less uncomfortable for you, but it isn't overly psychotic or creepy either.

I've had moderately similar things happen before. A girl that would give the guy 10 minutes to talk about it a day or two after the "I don't feel the same way about you" conversation would make things a lot easier on them and in most cases let the woman know the guy isn't some crazy stalker but just someone that isn't totally comfortable with the opposite sex yet, but is just a normal guy. Of course the fact that the woman completely avoids them at all costs just makes things worse for them.

In my case I was going to school with the girl so we saw eachother enough over enough time later that we managed to talk about it some more later and ended up being friends again. The time between those two points were fairly ackward though.

Jalor

2009-08-17, 08:48 PM

assuming all the above is true (its an honest account/my sarcasm detector isn't off the mark) - firstly, why didn't you sue her for slander - unfounded very public accusation like that can have all sorts of long term repocussions
secondly stop. desist. don't be an idiot. read this following bit carefully: STAY AS FAR AWAY FROM THE GIRL AS POSSIBLE. Cease all and any contant. This is 3-fold. A) a restraining order b) she doesn't sound like a great person to be around c) REALLY? do you really think thats at all even remotely wise.

I was mostly joking, but the restraining order expires pretty soon, so I would actually be in the clear. I'm too lazy to ever go through with it anyway, although I would like my Firefly DVDs back.

Coidzor

2009-08-17, 09:11 PM

Jalor: God. Oh god. No. NOOOOOO.

Serpentine

2009-08-18, 12:25 AM

Coidzor

2009-08-18, 01:30 AM

....Good call, Serps.

But yeah, I imagine gathering some proof of ownership and of the trade off for if you have to press charges for theft...

Quincunx

2009-08-18, 04:29 AM

Please tell me that, at some point during this whole sorry encounter, whether you realized she doesn't want any contact with you and ignored her desires in favor of yours, or were just enough of a social lackwit not to recognize that, since she was changing her lifestyle just to get away from you, she might not be pleased by your conversation.

Gem Flower, sounds like you had a case of social lackwit on your hands--not malicious, but annoying. If the last half-a-page was any indication, speaking up about it wouldn't have gotten him to stop anyway, so why bloody bother. Let's endure the attention, and drown our sorrows.

xPANCAKEx

2009-08-18, 06:36 AM

Jalor: Well, you could do it like this: when the restraint expires (NOT before!), use the number she gave you to call her, introduce yourself as that guy she met at the grocery store, and then ask, "So when can I get my Firefly DVDs back?" Be perfectly polite and reasonable about it, of course, and give her no reason to call the police on you again, but be firm about your DVDs.

nope - even if he waits til the order expires to continue contact, then he will have still broken the terms of the order, there by opening himself up to prosecution... very unwise/hazardous. It may come across in her eyes as malicious in her eyes that he didn't say "don't you recognise me? im not allowed near you" as a response to the first time she said hello

and JALOR - who struck up the conversation at the supermarket, you or her? either way - really... just don't. A DVD box set is not worth potential jail time. If you really want them back, go through legal channels.

Renegade Paladin

2009-08-18, 07:23 AM

Please tell me that, at some point during this whole sorry encounter, whether you realized she doesn't want any contact with you and ignored her desires in favor of yours, or were just enough of a social lackwit not to recognize that, since she was changing her lifestyle just to get away from you, she might not be pleased by your conversation.
So it was right for her to brand him a rapist for attempting to get an explanation out of her? Recall, even if nothing else she had possession of his property and still does. Jalor has every reason to be upset, although he's going about it the wrong way; he's not a mind reader unless I missed something and she used the power of the law to slander and de facto steal from him. Rather than castigate him for being a "social lackwit," as you put it, how about some recognition that he's dealing with a morally bankrupt individual here?

xPANCAKEx

2009-08-18, 07:34 AM

So it was right for her to brand him a rapist for attempting to get an explanation out of her? Recall, even if nothing else she had possession of his property and still does. Jalor has every reason to be upset, although he's going about it the wrong way; he's not a mind reader unless I missed something and she used the power of the law to slander and de facto steal from him. Rather than castigate him for being a "social lackwit," as you put it, how about some recognition that he's dealing with a morally bankrupt individual here?

he is indeed - but it still doesn't change the immutable fact that breaking the terms of the restraining order to retrieve a lost DVD when legal channels have and always will be open to him is silly on a vast order of magnitude

and also begs the question why Jalor didn't try (through said legal channels) to rectify the propery loss and personal damage at the time - although the latter may be accounted for by laziness by his own admission

Quincunx

2009-08-18, 08:39 AM

Renegade Paladin

2009-08-18, 08:55 AM

A woman disrupting her normal life to avoid you is not interested in your reasons.
All that she desires from you, the follower, is that you STOP FOLLOWING HER.
Too often, all of the non-getting-the-law-involved cues for the guy to stop following her are ignored.

Now, I'm not the type to appeal to an outside authority, nor am I afraid to engage with creepy* guys, so if it came down to the scene in the lunchroom, I would've cussed Jalor out** verbally and at the top of my lungs. It has less lasting impact on the criminal record and might be the kinder course of action. However, there is nothing morally bankrupt about appealing to the outside authority. It is morally bankrupt that she didn't think they would answer to any lesser charge than 'attempted rape'.

*He's said he is perceived as 'creepy', and I'm pretty sure this incident was the time he realized it.

**Including the essential idea of "never speak to me again".
Okay, so how about you get over yourself and remember that she's apparently a thief and a liar?

They were close friends. She cut off all contact abruptly and with no explanation. I don't know about you, but I would want to know what's going on. It's certainly within her rights to behave as she did, right up until the point where she stole his property and falsely accused him of crimes, but that doesn't make it a good idea.

I'd have taken the hint that she didn't want to talk to me when it became obvious that she was working so hard at avoidance, but in this situation I'd still want to retrieve my property. I'd have resorted to a letter rather than hunting her down, but Jalor didn't do anything strictly wrong according to his account, while she did several times over.

Erloas

2009-08-18, 09:37 AM

Granted we only have one side of the story with Jalor, it really does sound like the girl got freaked out by the thought of a relationship and overacted to everything.
If she just suddenly one day started avoiding him and not talk to him at all. It sounds like she never even told him anything at all.

If you had a friend that simply stopped talking to you and avoiding you one day you would try to find out why, regardless of the genders involved.

Given there is a lot of story missing and time frames and such. We don't know if it was only 1-2 days between when she started to avoid him or if it was months.

As for getting in touch with her again is a really questionable area. It sounds like the first incident was in high school and of course peoples' reactions to relationship sort of things in high school can go all sorts of ways. If you call her now she may have a completely different perspective on what happened in school and things would be fine. She might also just get really mad again too, there really is no way to know.

xPANCAKEx

2009-08-18, 09:44 AM

As for getting in touch with her again is a really questionable area. It sounds like the first incident was in high school and of course peoples' reactions to relationship sort of things in high school can go all sorts of ways. If you call her now she may have a completely different perspective on what happened in school and things would be fine. She might also just get really mad again too, there really is no way to know.

there is also still a RESTRAINING ORDER - so its all moot point

Quincunx

2009-08-18, 09:57 AM

.. .I'd have resorted to a letter rather than hunting her down, but Jalor didn't do anything strictly wrong according to his account. . .

Continuing to pursue a person (especially physically) after that person has made it clear your pursuit is unwelcome (and before your accusations of her character, Renegade Paladin) is WRONG. The "no" in "no communication" also falls under the "No Means No" rule.

Renegade Paladin

2009-08-18, 10:11 AM

Continuing to pursue a person (especially physically) after that person has made it clear your pursuit is unwelcome (and before your accusations of her character, Renegade Paladin) is WRONG. The "no" in "no communication" also falls under the "No Means No" rule.
And stealing is also WRONG, as is slander. So you think that if you can sucker someone into loaning you his property and then decide that you wish no further contact, it's perfectly okay to hold onto his stuff because it would be wrong for him to contact you to arrange its return? :smallannoyed:

And yes, no means no. If his story is accurate (which is the assumption I'm operating from; we have no other source of information) then he was never told "no" before she got a court to do it for her, so the fact that no means no is totally irrelevant because it never entered play.

If his story is not accurate, of course, then neither are conclusions drawn from it, but I should think he knows enough to know that advice given on faulty premises is unlikely to be good, and leave it to him to judge whether we're operating from accurate information.

Umael

2009-08-18, 10:17 AM

Jalor: While what she did was wrong (slander, thief), getting back at her is playing with fire. There are possible legal repercussions. Get backup or back off - or else guard your back if you drop the soap.

Nothing's happened still (and it's going to stay that way), but we've bonded more than ever. It's going to be hard to put the brakes on it now, and the hell of it is, at this point I'm not sure I want to.

Maybe it's just me, but... what's the problem here again?

Renegade Paladin

2009-08-18, 10:20 AM

Maybe it's just me, but... what's the problem here again?
This is a continuance from the end of the previous thread.

Major problem: She's married. It's a polyamorous relationship, so her husband is okay with it, but I'm not sure I would be.

Minor problem: A ten year age gap, with me the younger. (24 and 34, so technically within the half your age plus seven rule, but still.)

Other major problem, that cropped up after we realized we felt about each other that way: She was diagnosed with herpes on Friday.

That should do for the catching up.

Umael

2009-08-18, 10:44 AM

This is a continuance from the end of the previous thread.

Major problem: She's married. It's a polyamorous relationship, so her husband is okay with it, but I'm not sure I would be.

Other major problem, that cropped up after we realized we felt about each other that way: She was diagnosed with herpes on Friday.

That should do for the catching up.

I'm sorry, but you misunderstood.

I'm not saying that I needed a recap.

I'm saying, maybe it's me, but I don't see a problem with your current situation.

1) She's married. She's polyamorous. Her husband is okay with it. You're not sure you would be, where I'm assuming you mean "okay with it" where "it" means the notion of being one of her lovers but not her primary lover.

Either you are attracted to her and are willing to forego being her primary or you are more interested in being the primary in your romantic/sexual relationships.

I know where I would stand, but that's me.

2) This should just enforce your decision, either way. Either it makes it easier for you to resist or it tells you that if you are going to go for it, you are going to go for it for sure.

I know that if anyone I ever dated had herpes, I would be very thankful that I was told before we did anything. I gathered from my (brief) research that herpes is painful and it has no cure, but it is not serious and the flare-ups occur less and less often. If I was going to be serious with my lover before I found out, I would just resign myself to the extreme likelihood that I would get it as well and I would deal with it. If I wasn't going to be serious, then I would just make sure I would be there for my friend.

(Incidentally, I am sorry for her. It is an unfortunate thing to have occured.)

Pyrian

2009-08-18, 10:45 AM

The proper channel by which to recover borrowed property under such circumstances is through a lawyer. Given that that would likely cost more than the DVD's, I would simply write them (and her) off as a loss.

Keld Denar

2009-08-18, 10:46 AM

The "no" in "no communication" also falls under the "No Means No" rule.
This rule?
http://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww332/aintnoyooper/S6300401.jpg

Quincunx

2009-08-18, 10:50 AM

Erloas

2009-08-18, 11:08 AM

Long version: When you ask your friend out, you're asking that person to stop thinking of you as a friend and start thinking of you as a relationship. What if they make that mental adjustment, and still decide 'no'? Now you're the ex. Safest course of action towards the ex is to remove the ex from your life as much as possible. Safest course of action for the ex is not to pursue the one who just (non-verbally, remember, and yet the message got partially through) dumped you.

Well that depends which story we are talking about. In Gem Flower's case she told him no and he didn't handle it well. To me it doesn't sound like she handled it all that well either. Though he was clearly in the wrong, given the context and apparent age, it doesn't seem like it was that bad.

In Jalor's case though, it doesn't sound like she ever even told him no. It sounds like he didn't even know she knew he had a crush on her until well after the incident. It wasn't that he asked her out and she turned him down, he never said anything at all to her and she simply started avoiding and ignoring him. In that case trying to talk to her wouldn't seem out of place at all. There are a lot of reasons why someone might get mad at their friend and not want to talk to them for a while, many of which would have nothing to do with a potential relationship.

Renegade Paladin

2009-08-18, 11:29 AM

I'm sorry, but you misunderstood.

I'm not saying that I needed a recap.

I'm saying, maybe it's me, but I don't see a problem with your current situation.

1) She's married. She's polyamorous. Her husband is okay with it. You're not sure you would be, where I'm assuming you mean "okay with it" where "it" means the notion of being one of her lovers but not her primary lover.

Either you are attracted to her and are willing to forego being her primary or you are more interested in being the primary in your romantic/sexual relationships.

I know where I would stand, but that's me.

2) This should just enforce your decision, either way. Either it makes it easier for you to resist or it tells you that if you are going to go for it, you are going to go for it for sure.

I know that if anyone I ever dated had herpes, I would be very thankful that I was told before we did anything. I gathered from my (brief) research that herpes is painful and it has no cure, but it is not serious and the flare-ups occur less and less often. If I was going to be serious with my lover before I found out, I would just resign myself to the extreme likelihood that I would get it as well and I would deal with it. If I wasn't going to be serious, then I would just make sure I would be there for my friend.

(Incidentally, I am sorry for her. It is an unfortunate thing to have occured.)
Yes, well the other problem and the reason I decided to ask for advice in the first place is that we have a fairly involved non-romantic relationship that could/would be seriously complicated or even damaged by either a shoot-down or (though less so) by simply ignoring the issue.

Since the post you quoted in the first place, she and her husband have been to see their marriage counselor, after which she and I had a long talk last night. We're going to take it slow and see where this takes us; if either of us is not comfortable at any point, we're both mature enough that we can say it didn't work out and go on as friends. The one thing everyone else agrees on (both of them and their counselor) is that my being there for her kept her from falling apart after the diagnosis, so on balance it was a good thing. So I suppose the problem is about as resolved as it's going to get until this shakes out one way or the other.

Umael

2009-08-18, 11:39 AM

The one thing everyone else agrees on (both of them and their counselor) is that my being there for her kept her from falling apart after the diagnosis, so on balance it was a good thing. So I suppose the problem is about as resolved as it's going to get until this shakes out one way or the other.

Looks like you got the most important part down - kudos for being there for her when she needed it.

Renegade Paladin

2009-08-18, 03:42 PM

@/\: *snrk* Yes. That rule. :smallamused:

Thank you, Erloas. Speaking up for friendship was not only good in itself, but I think it illuminated why people don't seem to understand that continuing contact in these cases is wrong.

Short version: It's no longer a friendship.

Long version: When you ask your friend out, you're asking that person to stop thinking of you as a friend and start thinking of you as a relationship. What if they make that mental adjustment, and still decide 'no'? Now you're the ex. Safest course of action towards the ex is to remove the ex from your life as much as possible. Safest course of action for the ex is not to pursue the one who just (non-verbally, remember, and yet the message got partially through) dumped you.

Also, seeing what little effect saying "no" is having in this conversation, I'm tempted to skip that step altogether and reach for a restraining order myself.
Okay, let's try this again.

First, there was no saying "no." She cut off all contact with no indication as to why. I don't know about you, but I feel other people are due at least enough respect to be told why I no longer wish to associate with them when that happens. Immediately starting to treat a friend like dirt when he hadn't done anything wrong is despicable (though unlike her later acts not criminal) in itself.

Second, I would never go out with someone I couldn't consider a friend, and don't see why someone has to stop being a friend the moment they're asked out. If you can't have a basic friendship, the most basic friendly relationship there is, what basis is there for any relationship at all? If you can't get along with the person you're dating on that level, what do you expect to build on? Your assertion is ludicrous.

Pyrian

2009-08-18, 05:26 PM

We've already been told there's another - radically different - side to the story. I am not inclined to be so quick to issue condemnations either way.

Jalor

2009-08-18, 06:23 PM

I'm surprised at all the discussion about my situation, considering I never even asked for advice. I only said something mostly sarcastic, and then realized it would be hilarious poetic justice once I was in the legal clear.

and JALOR - who struck up the conversation at the supermarket, you or her?
Her. I was attempting to purchase fruit, but apparently they don't sell decent oranges in Florida. She was there, but I didn't see her. I said "This food is problematic". She started a conversation, having caught my Firefly reference but not my XKCD reference. When she left, she gave me her number entirely unsolicited. I'm pretty sure I'm safe, unless the state expects me to remain vigilant lest we end up shopping at the same Winn-Dixie.

Coidzor

2009-08-18, 06:26 PM

That is pretty ridiculous.

I was always able to get good citrus when I lived in Florida.

Maybe you're doing it wrong?

Edit: ...Dangit. Now you're making me miss having access to blood oranges and temple oranges. :smallannoyed:

...Also, it's still damned bizarre in any event. I dunno what the debate was over other than your illadvised comment about intent-to-shenanigans. Mostly because of concern for your safety.

Jalor

2009-08-18, 06:29 PM

That is pretty ridiculous.

I was always able to get good citrus when I lived in Florida.

Maybe you're doing it wrong?

I think it was the store. I now walk to the same Publix my parents drive to, which takes about ten minutes more and has good produce.

Edit: There's no need to worry about me, if anyone is. I've survived a hell of a lot of my own stupidity, and I like to think that I learn from it.

Coidzor

2009-08-18, 06:33 PM

There's no need to worry about me, if anyone is. I've survived a hell of a lot of my own stupidity, and I like to think that I learn from it.

Namely, to try to avoid too much more stupidity. haha.

Ahh, publix. How I remember thee....

Hadrian_Emrys

2009-08-18, 06:42 PM

Jalor

2009-08-18, 06:49 PM

Jalor: *snrk* I have no idea what to tell you. I mean, the smart thing would be to just leave her the hell alone. Legally, she can make your life suck even after the order expires. I've danced with the law before, I know how this crap goes down. That said, I am amused by just how odd the situation is. It's like something that would happen to me.

What could she do to me? I've never initiated physical contact with her, although she has with me. There are no grounds for further charges, I think.

Hadrian_Emrys

2009-08-18, 06:58 PM

What could she do to me? I've never initiated physical contact with her, although she has with me. There are no grounds for further charges, I think.

*snort* It's already on record that she's had an order against you. In the case of any he said/she said down the line, you'd be boned. It's just that simple. Like I said, I've been unjustly bent over the table by the law before, I know just how little its officers really care to waste time with trivial things like "details". In your shoes, I'd avoid her like she was leper.

Jalor

2009-08-18, 07:14 PM

*snort* It's already on record that she's had an order against you. In the case of any he said/she said down the line, you'd be boned. It's just that simple. Like I said, I've been unjustly bent over the table by the law before, I know just how little its officers really care to waste time with trivial things like "details". In your shoes, I'd avoid her like she was leper.

I suppose you're right. I pretty much threw myself on the mercy of the court in the first place, because I had a feeling I couldn't escape the order. I do thank Eris every day that she based her case against me off of "stalking" rather than "attempted rape". If those two words actually showed up in a legal proceeding, my life would be ****ed. I don't want to give her an excuse to use them.

Coidzor

2009-08-18, 07:26 PM

Except there would be no case for it as you never attempted rape.

The most you did was try to figure out why she was upset with you and suddenly broke off contact with you.

Hell, without some sign of physical violence.... I mean, yeah... the whole rape thing is just a buzzer word to slander you and get you to realize she despises you so.

Jalor

2009-08-18, 07:49 PM

story

I'm amazed that I've met, over the Internet, someone who has been called a rapist by a former friend. I think we've talked about this in a more general way before, but now we've both shared the full stories. I'm submitting this to My Life Is Average.

Keld Denar

2009-08-18, 10:16 PM

Yea, I nearly had a rape accusal story myself. I was dating a girl (who lived in my apt building...bad idea!) for about 8 months. We had a pretty turbulent relationship (mostly because she thought I was always cheating on her, which I wasn't), but she kept coming back to my apt to sleep with me. Well, I decided finally that that wasn't gonna fly anymore, and I wasn't gonna see her again, even if she threw herself at me again. Well, she flipped out. She started calling me. A lot. I have phone records of 200 missed calls in just a couple hours. She called my work, my parents, and a bunch of people. She sent me text messages saying that she was gonna tell the police that I raped her, saying that she had kept the bed sheets and everything. She was destined to make me "pay" for using her...even though it was mutual and she knocked on my apt door as much as I did hers. I actually contacted the police immediately after she stated that as her intentions, let them know what she had been threatening, and asked them to contact me if anything came accross their desk. I got a call 4 days later, saying that nothing had, and I have a mile high pile of evidence against her if she does actually go to the police, so I'm not too worried any more. Still, looking down the barrel of a rape charge is NOT fun.

I tried to get a restraining order against her, but I've been up at work for the past 3 weeks and apparently you have to appear in court in person (or hire a lawyer) in order to do that. Yea...I fly back to Seattle tomorrow, time to go see if my car has been keyed.

Anyway, the moral of the story is: don't crap where you eat, and back up any conversations you can, you never know when they might keep you outa the pen. Oh, and stay away from psycho jealous ex's!

shadow_archmagi

2009-08-18, 10:18 PM

Woe: I havn't got relationship.

Advice: ????

xPANCAKEx

2009-08-18, 10:38 PM

Jalor

in future, if you ever bump into her again, avoid any conversation. If you have to, remind her of the restraining order. Just how much have you changed that she can't remember who you are (thats the one thing thats seriously bugged me about all this)

shadow_archmagi

need more data on your current social life, social interestests and relationship prospects to really give you solid advice on that one

as a general rule of thumb:
spend more time with people
meet new people
keep yourself in good shape/appearance

Serpentine

2009-08-18, 11:46 PM

That is pretty ridiculous.

I was always able to get good citrus when I lived in Florida.

Maybe you're doing it wrong?My stepsiblings went to Florida for a year or so and a month or two, respectively, and complained about the lack of good fresh fruit.

On the potential charge of "attempted rape" against Jalor: At least in Australia, even if you're deemed innocent the accusation is still on your record permanently (or for a very long time).
A guy at my school had to go to court on rape charges. Based on rumour and heresay, what I'm pretty sure is fact on the matter is thusly: They got drunk at a party at her house, and ended up in bed together. They had sex at some point (unknown: whether she did so willingly). They were woken in the morning by her mother. Either then or soon afterwards she told her mother he raped her.
What she claimed: He raped her. Duh. Dunno the details of her case.
What the cynics claimed: She told her mother he raped her cuz she didn't want to get into trouble for getting drunk and/or having sex.
What I reckon could have happened: Either she was too drunk to say "no", he was too drunk to notice whether she said "no" or not, or she woke up in the morning with no or incomplete memory of what happened and figured he'd raped her. In any case, it was a whole big ball of idiocy, but no malice.
Anyway, the court decided there wasn't enough evidence to convict him, but it's still on his record.
(Fun fact: This girl's mother's boyfriend was later bashed almost to death by a madman with links to his mental ex wife who accused him of molesting his own children)

Shadow_Archmagi: How old are you? In any case... Don't look for "a Relationship, any Relationship!" Build relationships of various kinds, while being on the look out for someone in particular who you think could make for a good Relationship.

xPANCAKEx

2009-08-18, 11:49 PM

interesting in spain they have laws where if you file the charge of rape/attempted rape you can't request the charges to be dropped. This was to prevent pressure from abusive spouses

they also punish those found to be making malicious false claims pretty harshly

Serpentine

2009-08-18, 11:55 PM

I think that, in Australia, the victim doesn't necessarily have a choice: if the police believe a crime has been commited, they will prosecute it.
Dr Mum, as all-too-often the doctor on call and therefore the first on the site, used to regularly treat sexual assault victims and thus have to testify in court. I seem to recall these being really hard on her. The lawyers would attack her from all angles, sometimes, as well as having to listen to and repeat all the details of the assault.

Coidzor

2009-08-19, 12:01 AM

I'm not sure how we do it, but a girl at my school accused a guy of date rape and the police questioned him but it never went to court. Had to take an extra year due to getting kicked out of the course required for his major that he had with her though.

Syka

2009-08-19, 09:10 AM

I'm pretty sure in the US once a rape charge has been brought, at least with statutory rape and such, it has to be persecuted. There was a mom whose 15 year old daughter had sex with an 18 year old or something of the sort and to punish them she took her daughter to the police station and filed statutory rape charges. She later tried to drop the charges but since it had been filed and included a minor, they continued with prosecution.

Needless to say, the mom felt horrible about branding that 18 year old as a sexual predator for the rest of his life.

I also had a guy in high school (ninth grade) who'd I'd known since middle school make some...remarks in a class that got the teacher even pissed at him and offended me greatly. I avoided him after that. Basically, he'd asked for a kiss numerous times then kept trying to hand me money for 'last night' and that sort of thing. Being a normal douchebag high school guy, but overstepping lines.

A few years later just after high school it turned out he was working at a local supermarket and completely didn't recognize me and tried chatting with me. I was polite but I couldn't bring myself to be friendly.

If you had caused her that much discomfort back then, I'm not sure how she could have possibly forgotten you unless you've lost/gained a significant amount of weight or had reconstructive surgery or something?

Note: I'm going to have to pass the baton of RWA off since I'm not sure how much time I'll have for recreational internet anymore. I just started an MBA program and it looks like it's going to kick my ass. Add on working part time (well, full time for the next week, eep!), a family, and a boyfriend- all of whom want attention- it's...going to be interesting. So until further notice I'm going to pass this off. I think a cage match would be an appropriate way of initating the new person. ;)

Just kidding, I figure you guys can handle it on your own and there is no real leader here any way so...have fun and keep the woes to a minimum. I want y'all to be happy.

Lord Loss

2009-08-19, 12:19 PM

I nominate Pancake.

Jalor

2009-08-19, 05:58 PM

Just how much have you changed that she can't remember who you are (thats the one thing thats seriously bugged me about all this)

I grew about six inches, and my hair went from being short and spiked in the front to looking like Davy Jones from The Monkees. My glasses are a completely different shape and style, and I have much less acne. I used to wear polo shirts and khakis, and I now wear black jeans and black t-shirts of classic rock and metal bands. I went from looking a couple years younger than I am to looking a couple years older. Relatives that haven't seen me since I moved also have trouble recognizing me. The only thing that still looks the same is my enormous nose, and even that has maybe a fourth of the acne it did then.

I also carry myself differently and speak differently. I used to be hyperactive and talkative, now I look like I'm stoned most of the time and speak slowly. My voice doesn't crack anymore, and speaking slowly means my voice sounds deeper. I'm also much snarkier.

I'm basically a totally different person.

Umael

2009-08-19, 06:09 PM

I'm basically a totally different person.

Sounds like you blossomed into quite a looker too.

(Just take that as a compliment and please don't read anything into it.)

xPANCAKEx

2009-08-19, 06:46 PM

I nominate Pancake.

flattered but NEIN!!!

one of the major joys of this thread is EVERYONE is welcome to dish out advice, be it regular or a total newcomer whos never asked for advice before. Its anarchy, but it works... although none of us will ever have a hat as nice as pyrians.

i meerly post a lot because im online far too often and have this thread subscribed... curse you internet addiction!

so syka - you'll have a hard time handing over that batton when everyones already carry their own already :smallwink: but do be sure to swing by and dish out your insights as time permits

Keld Denar

2009-08-19, 07:40 PM

... curse you internet addiction!

I commend you, my friend. The first step to solving a problem is admitting you have one!

See? This advice shindig is totally easy! :P

xPANCAKEx

2009-08-19, 07:47 PM

I commend you, my friend. The first step to solving a problem is admitting you have one!

i can quit any time i want to :smallwink:

Lamech

2009-08-19, 10:49 PM

She sent me text messages saying that she was gonna tell the police that I raped her, Err... leaving an electronic trail of your threats. Not a good idea when planning on false accusations.

Coidzor

2009-08-19, 11:04 PM

Yeah. Always fun, that.

Hmm. Pancake for Emperor of Relationships and God of Unrequited Lust.

Hmm. Great, now I have a DnD deity being formulated in my head....

xPANCAKEx

2009-08-19, 11:07 PM

Yeah. Always fun, that.

Hmm. Pancake for Emperor of Relationships and God of Unrequited Lust.

Hmm. Great, now I have a DnD deity being formulated in my head....

i'd like to see the domain spell list for that...

Coidzor

2009-08-19, 11:10 PM

It would probably incorporate both Bigby's Groping Hand and Bigby's Restraining Order.

And of course, Book of Erotic Fantasy.

skywalker

2009-08-19, 11:43 PM

Note: I'm going to have to pass the baton of RWA off since I'm not sure how much time I'll have for recreational internet anymore. I just started an MBA program and it looks like it's going to kick my ass. Add on working part time (well, full time for the next week, eep!), a family, and a boyfriend- all of whom want attention- it's...going to be interesting. So until further notice I'm going to pass this off. I think a cage match would be an appropriate way of initating the new person. ;)

Just kidding, I figure you guys can handle it on your own and there is no real leader here any way so...have fun and keep the woes to a minimum. I want y'all to be happy.

:frown:

We'll miss you SOOOOOOOO much!

flattered but NEIN!!!

one of the major joys of this thread is EVERYONE is welcome to dish out advice, be it regular or a total newcomer whos never asked for advice before. Its anarchy, but it works... although none of us will ever have a hat as nice as pyrians.

+1

It always seemed like it was Syka's thread, and she of course is a very well respected voice, but I like that there is not a designated... "leader" around here, especially since the best advice frequently comes from debate... I think some other threads around here suffer from a bit of... deference to the "leader" of the thread, and that's not a good thing.

Plus pancake and I frequently disagree so if he is in charge, I might get kicked out!

Coidzor

2009-08-19, 11:49 PM

I think it was mostly about who would get the dubious honor of making sure to that there's a thread made as necessary.

I think the rest of it was just jocularity.

Syka

2009-08-20, 08:16 AM

I think it was mostly about who would get the dubious honor of making sure to that there's a thread made as necessary.

I think the rest of it was just jocularity.

This, pretty much. Haha. Some people have 'deferred' to me or asked me if they can join in or some such but even I don't feel like I have that "power". Just up until this thread, I've been the one to make the new ones and I don't know if I'll be around often enough to keep doing that. I can still pop in for advice, just not near as much.

As seen by the fact I was tardy with this thread, lol. So someone needs to take over that. Even if it's just "whoever gets to it first". :smallsmile:

Coidzor

2009-08-20, 02:42 PM

Indeed. Some sort of code for how to go about that is nice. Helps avoid nasty feelings cropping up later on down the line.

xPANCAKEx

2009-08-20, 02:58 PM

Hannes

2009-08-20, 02:59 PM

So.

I'm in a relationship, three months. My girlfriend and I are getting along just fine, but sometimes it just feels that I'm not interesting enough or something, because I feel I'm not getting enough attention. It might be just me, though...

Also, when in the presence of friends, I feel that their jokes are fringing too much on the edge of flirting. This tends to unnerve me a bit. It might just be my natural paranoia and seeing things as they actually aren't, but meh.

So my question is: how could I talk to her about this? What to say? I've thought of many things, but I just can't figure out the way.

NB: However it may sound and look like, I still love her unconditionally and believe (hope, at least) that she feels the same way.

Pyrian

2009-08-20, 05:26 PM

Hannes, off-hand, it really sounds like you're just feeling insecure. If that's the case (and I'm not certain it is but it's hard to judge from my perspective) then you're best off not expressing it to her if you can possibly hold it in! Insecurity and its children, jealousy and possessiveness, are not attractive traits.

Lack of attention: It's particularly hard for me to get much perspective on this; I don't know how much attention you're getting versus how much you want, and what else is going on in her life. As such, it's impossible for me to judge whether your desire is fundamentally reasonable or not. Heck, I'm not even entirely clear on what you mean by "attention" in this case. Certainly you could ask if it's possible to spend a little more time together, just the two of you, especially if you make it clear you're willing to negotiate about what that would mean.

Flirting: It really sounds like you're overreacting, here. Jokes which are kind of maybe crossing the line into flirting? Get over it. People do that. Heck, people flirt outright completely innocently on a regular basis. If you can't deal with that sort of thing it's going to wreck your relationships for the entire rest of your life.

skywalker

2009-08-21, 12:49 AM

Im pro "who ever is there at the time" - its not a race, no is their any status or benifits from being the one who did it

i just saw the last thread was coming to 50 pages, so made a new one, copied and pasted in the relevant stuff.. no biggy :)

+1

I thought (think) the drama over who gets to start our variety of threads is a bit silly. It will be fine whoever does it. Sometimes the person isn't around, and I think it's silly to say "I have to be here at this time in case we need a new thread" which is what you would have to do to fulfill your obligation appropriately.

Dracomorph

2009-08-21, 01:12 AM

stuff

Mostly as Pyrian said, except for one thing: it's alright to say "I'm feeling insecure, and could use some reassurance." every once in a while. Any person worth their salt would respond with reassurances. Most people go through occasional phases of insecurity. [/stating the obvious]

If you are feeling insecure more often than once in a while, then it is a problem with you, not her, and not with outside forces. You should be used to it if it happens more than once in a blue moon.

Pyrian is a smart person. Listen to him, and his hat will guide you well.

Coidzor

2009-08-21, 03:38 PM

I still love my ex. I hate myself so much right now.

evil-frosty

2009-08-21, 04:21 PM

Coid, that sucks. I am pretty much in the same boat as you. There isnt much you can do but somethings you can do. Some advice my best friend gave me (and she was cheated on and went thru a bad breakup, so she knows what she is talking about) is just focus on everything else and push her out of your mind, now this will be very hard if you dont have a lot of willpower like me, i drove her crazy for a little while there.

Another thing is you could put her in the worst light possible and try to think of her as someone you dont want to associate with and maybe with some time you wont love her anymore but this is sorta iffy, since love is suppose to conquer all.

I am a good catholic but after my breakup i was depressed and i took it out on my friends which was bad. I was just going downhill. Then my best friend who i have known my whole life invited me on a retreat called Kyrios and everything changed for me, for the first time in 7-8 months i was happy. I came out of my depression and i wasnt thinking about my ex as much.

Now i am not saying this is what is best for you i am just sharing my story. The best advice i can give is to push her out of your life and mind, also if your not offended by the idea praying can work wonders but again its your choice.

Syka

2009-08-21, 04:47 PM

I still love my ex. I hate myself so much right now.

It happens dude.

I know I still love my ex. Chances are if you love(d) her, you always will. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that as long as it doesn't preclude you from finding a healthier relationship (provided you want one) or being happy on your own. That's the trick.

Try not to hate yourself, either. ;) It's pretty normal and to be expected. As I said I still love my ex, but it's faded into the background and it doesn't lessen the love I have for Oz in the slightest.

Coidzor

2009-08-21, 05:07 PM

I'm just annoyed though... I just want to stop hurting from it.

I feel like a fool and it's clouding my judgment when I'm trying to figure out what I should major in like a mofo.

The worst thing is that I want to move on, but people keep reminding me of her and every time I dwell on her for too long I want her back.

Lerky

2009-08-22, 06:24 PM

well I have another relationship woe and I need advice. There's this girl who has been talking to me a lot and I'm almost certain she likes me. She says a lot of suggestive stuff, but recently she told me that she wants to tell me something but is waiting for a right moment, and if I ask her to tell me anyway she says it won't sound right if forced.

She's a very nice girl, but I'm not sure if she's genuine or if she's just toying with me.

Endalia

2009-08-22, 06:35 PM

Coidzor

2009-08-22, 06:36 PM

Well, if you like her then just ask her out and get that part out of the way. If you aren't sure she really views you as a friend, then that'd be another angle of attack.

Otherwise just figger out what your position is.

Lerky

2009-08-22, 06:40 PM

Well it all really depends on one thing: how do YOU feel about HER? Do you have a crush on her? Do you feel you're just friends? Or maybe you don't really know?
I really like her and I think she's incredibly cute and funny, and I guess I kinda sorta have a crush on her:smallredface:

Coidzor

2009-08-22, 06:41 PM

Then, just go ahead and ask her out then?

Lerky

2009-08-22, 06:43 PM

Then, just go ahead and ask her out then?
that's the plan...or I could just wait and see if she does tell me, that way I don't force it out and I can be sure that she likes me to.

But just plain ol' asking her out was certainly on my list of ideas

Coidzor

2009-08-22, 06:47 PM

It certainly helps cut down on dawdling on both of your parts.

Lerky

2009-08-22, 06:48 PM

It certainly helps cut down on dawdling on both of your parts.
but just telling her I like might be a way of forcing an answer out of her anyway:smallconfused:

Coidzor

2009-08-22, 06:52 PM

Lerky

2009-08-22, 06:54 PM

Erloas

2009-08-22, 07:16 PM

You could also say something like, how about we go out to diner/watch a movie/whatever and see if it seems like the right time to say whatever it is comes up then.

Lerky

2009-08-22, 07:21 PM

You could also say something like, how about we go out to diner/watch a movie/whatever and see if it seems like the right time to say whatever it is comes up then.
That could work, I just have a major issue with asking girls out:smallsigh:
EDIT: and one of her friends told me that she's "shes one helluva flirt...like to everyone"

xPANCAKEx

2009-08-22, 10:13 PM

That could work, I just have a major issue with asking girls out:smallsigh:
EDIT: and one of her friends told me that she's "shes one helluva flirt...like to everyone"

See - before now, i would have been all for "just make a move - see what happens". But that last part makes me have to advise caution.

Personally i wouldn't mention it again to her or try to draw it out of her - even if she makes suggestive remarks. Just carry on as you always have. She has said SHE'S got something to tell you, so she'll have to be the one to broach the topic. If she mentions it again, without actually telling you what it actually is (and we can't really make any assumptions as to the content), just give her a non-commital "ok". You've already asked her to explain what it actually is once, and she didn't take you up on the opertunity - and asking her again won't change that, and may infact make her feel more pressured.

However - if she asks something along the lines of "but dont you wanna know what it is?" i'd advise further caution as it may be some sort of attention game. If she puts you in that position, the correct response is "well, you've said you'll tell me when you're comfortable, so i guess i'll have to wait" - top marks if you can say it with a smile. If shes playing an attention game, you won't be rising to it, and if she is genuine it shows her thar you've got patience and respect, as some people are not too confident on discussing personal matters (romantic or otherwise)

Of course, saying all that there is the issue of your own feelings for her. You say you have an issue with asking girls out... everyone gets nervous. EVERYONE. Some are just better at dealing with it or hiding it than others. So don't let it get you down or hold you back. As i've said often - rejection is better than regret - so if you really like the girl, then make a move. Erloas made an excellent suggestion about asking her out on the sly - it would take the pressure of her a bit. But remember, not all expressions of affection have to be verbal. Infact sometimes actions speak a hell of a lot louder than words - sometimes "just going for it" can be easier and quicker than taking ten minutes to try and find a way to say something with words

so i guess its up to you

Lerky

2009-08-22, 10:55 PM

wow, I can see you thought this through pancake, and I appreciate that. I'll take every word of advice next time I talk to her, thanks guys:smallbiggrin:

AngelSword

2009-08-22, 11:39 PM

Lerky

2009-08-23, 12:14 AM

She broke up with me.

She had a stoic demeanor through the whole thing, but I like to think that she was just as hurt as me. If only because that lessens the pain…slightly.

The phone call I just got isn't helping matters.

It came up as a blocked number, at 0030 or so. I picked it up, and a timid voice is on the other line. It says something quick, and hangs up. Now I'm uncertain if it really was her, saying, "I hurt, too," or if that's just my sad mind filling in the blanks.
man, breaks up hurt. But you gotta now that time heals all wounds, you feel like you'll never love again but with time you're forget all about this. Love is like the sun, it'll always be there, be ready for that dawn.:smallsmile:

Perenelle

2009-08-23, 10:03 AM

Love is like the sun, it'll always be there, be ready for that dawn.:smallsmile:

That just made my day. :smallsmile:
did you come up with that?

Klose_the_Sith

2009-08-23, 11:09 AM

Man, if she's going to be that hung up on that kind of thing, she's not right for being in a relationship with.

As it stands, it's you letting her know your position and making it so that she doesn't feel she has to go out on a limb in the first place to broach the subject.

If that's what her quibbling is about anyway.

I dunno, I've known tons of people who have gotten all hung up on that due to serious nerves/paranoia, but if settled then they're perfectly date-able material. In fact, I'm one such person and I get told by her friends how glad they are that she has a BF who's good to her now.

Just my two cents anyway, but I'd always attempt to make the connection with a person, even if it seems like a bad idea. Trust in the pack nature genetics buried within you.

Destro_Yersul

2009-08-23, 11:49 AM

I'm just annoyed though... I just want to stop hurting from it.

The worst thing is that I want to move on, but people keep reminding me of her and every time I dwell on her for too long I want her back.

Been there, my friend. It's not easy, but.. Somehow I got through it. I'm fortunate in that my Ex and I still have a pretty strong friendship, so perhaps that helped, but...

It's not easy. Not saying it's easy. But I'm sure you'll manage.

xPANCAKEx

2009-08-23, 12:29 PM

I dunno, I've known tons of people who have gotten all hung up on that due to serious nerves/paranoia, but if settled then they're perfectly date-able material. In fact, I'm one such person and I get told by her friends how glad they are that she has a BF who's good to her now.

its a very devisive issue - some of them may get over the initial nerves, but in many cases if can also be a hint as to what they'll be like further into a relationship. Would you really want to date someone who doesn't have the confidence to speak up everytime theres something big bothering them, but instead makes you have to draw it out of them. I can attest from a lot of previous experiance than such antics can and WILL put a damper on things and take the excitement out of a relationship if they carry on for too long.

IMHO - for a relationship to truely work, a certain degree of personal fortitude and confidence is required by both sides, and in this case her hinting she has something to say (if infact what she wants to say is reguards starting a relationship - we don't know for sure, so lets not operate on that assumption) yet not backing it up, may be an indicator that she doesn't have that neccessary confidence

Qooroo

2009-08-23, 01:23 PM

This may not be representative of her overall character, though. A lot of women, women that are otherwise assertive and confident, still subscribe to the notion that the guy should ask the girl out. It's a bit bizzare, but it does happen. It may be that this girl is interested in Lerky, but is uncomfortable being the one to make the first move, so is doing everything she can to make him aware of her interest so that he'll ask her out.

On the other hand, maybe she has a serious lack of confidence and is non-commital and wishy-washy. It's a risk, but I'd still ask her out if you're interested. If she says yes, these things will make themselves fairly clear early on, and you can bail before things get too serious. That's what casual dating is for - to test the waters with someone you're attracted to, and see if they have long term potential.

On the other-other hand, maybe she's just jerking you around. If you ask her out, it puts her on the spot; she'll either have to put up and shut up. If she is leading you on for the sake of her own enjoyment/the ego boost/whatever, but lacks any interest in you, then she's probably trusting that your shyness with women will keep her in control.

On the fourth hand, if you're not interested in her, stop responding to her flirting. As xPANCAKEx said, if she's not interested then she'll give up when you stop responding. If she is interested, but you're not, and you're continuing to respond to her advances, then you're the one doing the jerking around and you should stop.

TL;DR: If you like her, ask her out. If you don't, don't respond.

snoopy13a

2009-08-23, 04:05 PM

This may not be representative of her overall character, though. A lot of women, women that are otherwise assertive and confident, still subscribe to the notion that the guy should ask the girl out. It's a bit bizzare, but it does happen.

It isn't so bizarre when you look at it from the woman's point of view. Why would a confident, assertive woman want to date a person who doesn't have the courage to ask her out?

Hadrian_Emrys

2009-08-23, 04:34 PM

"Love is like the sun, it'll always be there, be ready for that dawn."

Well, I admit that the line sounds nice enough. :smalltongue:

Pyrian

2009-08-23, 05:06 PM

Why would a confident, assertive woman want to date a person who doesn't have the courage to ask her out?Dominance, usually, at least in my experience. :smalltongue:

Lerky

2009-08-23, 06:19 PM

That just made my day. :smallsmile:
did you come up with that?
Glad I could acheive this
Yes I did, I'll admit it took awhile to fine tune:smallwink:

Perenelle

2009-08-23, 06:55 PM

Glad I could acheive this
Yes I did, I'll admit it took awhile to fine tune:smallwink:

:smallbiggrin: Nice job

evil-frosty

2009-08-23, 10:40 PM

I feel compelled to point out that the sun will not always be there. But it is a very nice saying/quote.

Dracomorph

2009-08-23, 11:27 PM

Well, for the next, what, 6 billion years or something? That may not be forever, but it's got the right idea.

evil-frosty

2009-08-24, 06:47 AM

I know i am just a pessimistic person.

xPANCAKEx

2009-08-24, 07:47 AM

well then i feel compelled to point out that the sun may not ALWAYS be there, but for as long as you live it DEFINATELY (*) will be, so your pessimism is moot point ;)

* = baring attacks by aliens, planet sized comets destabalising it, or projects by mad evil super geniuses - all of which are so unlikely that if you worry about them, you should refrain from dating and spend the rest of your life slapping yourself around the face with a wet haddock

Jalor

2009-08-24, 05:02 PM

Heh, my sun must have gone supernova. I've kind of given up on the notion of true love. But hey, don't let my pessimism get you down. Just because I hate people doesn't mean you will.

Lerky, ask her out if you like her. You'll regret it if you don't.

Hadrian_Emrys

2009-08-24, 06:02 PM

The false notion of 'twu wuv' turns my stomach, and 'unconditional love' being cited as a reason for sticking with an unhealthy relationship sets me on the warpath. The former is a shallow myth that deludes the ignorant, whereas the latter is the universal final refuge of the weak-willed/pathetic.

Pyrian

2009-08-24, 06:46 PM

Hadrian_Emrys

2009-08-24, 07:03 PM

I tend to keep my romantic comments as factual as possible. Pretty lies are the root of all that offends me in mass media, and I'll not reduce myself by resorting to their use. I understand the figurative concept of saying such things, but I cannot do so myself without being battered with guilt for misleading the person I'm talking to. It is but one of my many odd social quirks.

Pyrian

2009-08-24, 07:22 PM

Don't confuse literalness with factualness. I'm not telling you that people lie. A figure of speech is not necessarily a lie, regardless of whether its literal meaning is correct. I'm saying that the words don't mean what they look like they mean. Also, I wouldn't get caught up in thinking that excessive literalness is a "personality quirk". It's a very common issue among, let's just say, us, and widely cited as a basic failure to communicate properly.

EDIT: Mind you, I don't see anything wrong with sticking to literal communication for one's own statements, but there is a problem if you do not recognize the situation where what other people intend with their words is not strictly the literal interpretation thereof, as that constitutes a failure to communicate.

Syka

2009-08-25, 08:21 PM

I believe in true love insomuch as the love does in fact exist. I don't believe in The One, however. All romantic love is not created evil, and there will probably be a or some Great Loves, but I don't believe in One person.

That's just damn depressing. ;)

I have a woe (this is just so that I can justify being here, haha). Oz has either bronchitis or strep throat. :smallfrown: Since...Saturday night I've seen him all of 10 minutes and that was while he stopped by my work to pick up a prescription yesterday, and I probably won't see him for a few more days to avoid risking re-infection. I know- I'm being a complainer. :smalltongue: Ignore me, it's not really that much of a woe beyond "I can't be around my boyfriend whilst he's sick to make him better because I can't get sick"

snoopy13a

2009-08-25, 08:33 PM

Don't be too literal about stuff like that. There are lots of things people say romantically but know perfectly well they don't actually mean in a literal sense. "Unconditional love" is certainly one of them, "I'd do anything for you" is another. (My first girlfriend dropped the latter statement on me and I replied, "No, you wouldn't." She didn't argue...)

I disagree on unconditional love. Some people truly believe that they should love others unconditionally. However, that is really the charitable, platonic, kind of love.

Of course, you should never believe what a prospective romantic partner is saying, especially if they are male. "I love you" is sometimes code for "I want to sleep with you. "I think you're cute" is sometimes code for "I really don't find you attractive but I'm desperate to hook up with anyone tonight".

evil-frosty

2009-08-25, 08:39 PM

And that is why then us good guys get a bad rep because of the jerks out there. Sometimes this makes me very mad but then i think if that is how a girl is going to judge me she isnt worth it.

Pyrian

2009-08-25, 08:49 PM

Some people truly believe that they should love others unconditionally.Yeah, but more as a spiritual ideal than a romantic practice. There's always a line.

Coidzor

2009-08-25, 08:57 PM

Huh. And here I thought couples intentionally spent more...ah...time...together... when one of them was feeling crappy in order to pep 'em up. You have some kind of weak immune system or just paranoid?

...I'm suddenly reminded of my ex-girlfriend and I acting as nursemaids for one another when I caught a really, really nasty flu that actually decommissioned me rather than just making me feel uncomfortable for a few days. And then two days after I starting pulling up she went down on me and I had to start looking after her because her parents were out of the country.

xPANCAKEx

2009-08-25, 09:03 PM

And that is why then us good guys get a bad rep because of the jerks out there. Sometimes this makes me very mad but then i think if that is how a girl is going to judge me she isnt worth it.

not that this is neccessarily a reflection on you - but most nice guys are doormats. This in itself is a a very unnattractive prospect to most women. To be a truely decent guy, when a girl is giving you hassle because of some past miss-deed another man has commited, you have to have the balls to say "you know what, you're damaged goods, and i diserve better" and walk away.

Any girl that is willing to project angst from past man hassle onto you without giving you a fair chance or, worse yet, continue to date the very kind of guys she complains about is not worth dating.

its not your job as their new boyfriend to take all their past painaway - thats for them to deal with, and any assistance you play in the matter (for your own well being) should be minor. Some girls (and some guys) who complain about past woes and project that onto you ("you'll be a jerk just like all the rest") are not ready to move onto a new and healthier relationship. Bare that in mind.

Syka

2009-08-25, 09:03 PM

I already caught it from him once and had to be on antibiotics. Like, it knocked me out. Bad. I couldn't work for three days by doctors order (I tried the first...it was really, really a bad idea). All he really had after being a little warm the first two days was a lingering cough which went away after a couple weeks. It's been about two weeks since then and it came back with a vengence. Since I literally just started classes in an unfamiliar subject, I really can't risk being decommissioned again.

Not too mention, being on antibiotics again within a month would probably be bad.

Otherwise I'd be over there as much as possible babying him. The first time around, I babied the kid and I have for every other illness. My immune system is generally not that good anyway, but this is a risk he really doesn't want me taking.

Trust me, I hate not doing anything. :smallfrown:

ETA: As to what pancake said, I agree to an extent. Someone who will automatically peg you as one of the jerks is not good. Someone who has a bit of baggage, acknowledges it, and is fighting it is worth it. Someone who won't admit it or tries to put the onus of proving past wrongs as not something you do, is not worth it.

xPANCAKEx

2009-08-25, 09:06 PM

syka

get surgical masks maybe? it would be a tad impersonal, but it would stop you getting infected

Coidzor

2009-08-25, 09:10 PM

Ouch. That's going to have some potential repercussions if you two have children together, isn't it?

or am I misremembering something about pregnant women being more vulnerable or having worse consequences of getting sick?

gah.

In terms of damaged goods/crazy women: I dunno. I just stop being attracted to them in most if not all of the cases I've encountered it in my own life. Just something boner-killing about someone that judgmental in the first place.

Hmm... I hope my ex who I helped set up my friend with isn't bad enough that it's doomed to a miserable and horrible failure. I mean, she's emotionally immature for her age due to isolation and lack of the essential conflict of human nature (there's something philosophical here that I'm forgetting the name of, either a concept or an actual school of thought), but mostly due to the whole paranoia in the back of her head about people leaving her.

I was disappointed when I found out that this wasn't because of her dad shooting himself in front of her. Because that would've been epically horrifying in a fascinating way. Mostly because of the supreme absurdity of the mental image I got of it when I thought that was what she was saying.

...Y'know what's weird? There are two women who I have dated but who I don't really feel like I've been their boyfriend or she my girlfriend enough for them to really count as an ex. In the one case there was some confusion as to whether she had asked me out or just asked me on a date and nothing happened so that was all *shrug* until I had a couple of mutual friends go off on me when I excluded her from my romantic history. The other one I just never thought of as a girlfriend despite us being "official," I think it was mostly the age difference and how I was using her to get out of the house as much as she was using me for a less creepy dance partner and prom date.

Syka

2009-08-25, 09:12 PM

syka

get surgical masks maybe? it would be a tad impersonal, but it would stop you getting infected

Haha, I should probably wear one at work anyway. But given their selling at...about $10 for like 3 masks I'd wear once...yeah. We're willing to wait another day or so. His antibiotics'll be over in the next few days, so by tommorrow it should be fine.

ETA: Coid, I already have a factor that would make kids a...very, very planned and closely watch scenario. My epilepsy is triggered by sleep deprivation, and newborns aren't exactly known for letting one get sleep, not too mention pregnancy itself can exacerbate it. Add in my asthma and other stuff...I would definitely consider genetic counseling to see the likely hood of passing on my crappy immune system before reproducing and have a very good OB/GYN.

snoopy13a

2009-08-25, 09:24 PM

not that this is neccessarily a reflection on you - but most nice guys are doormats.

Yep, "nice" is pretty much a backhanded compliment.

Dragonrider

2009-08-25, 10:32 PM

Yep, "nice" is pretty much a backhanded compliment.

I dunno...I can think of several guys on whom "nice" is very attractive.

xPANCAKEx

2009-08-25, 10:41 PM

I dunno...I can think of several guys on whom "nice" is very attractive.

promise me you'll never call any of those guys "nice" to their face... call them anything but. Nice is so utter bland its almost insulting

Mando Knight

2009-08-25, 10:43 PM

Yeah, but more as a spiritual ideal than a romantic practice. There's always a line.

Of course. You wouldn't make a cake out of bread.

Dragonrider

2009-08-25, 10:46 PM

promise me you'll never call any of those guys "nice" to their face... call them anything but. Nice is so utter bland its almost insulting

Even though their niceness is what makes me feel warm and fuzzy about them? :smalltongue:

I don't really understand it...

But okay.

Mando Knight

2009-08-25, 10:50 PM

Even though their niceness is what makes me feel warm and fuzzy about them? :smalltongue:

So that method can work! :smallbiggrin:

My reaction to being told that I'm nice would depend on the tone of voice used.

Recaiden

2009-08-25, 10:51 PM

Even though their niceness is what makes me feel warm and fuzzy about them? :smalltongue:

I don't really understand it...

But okay.

They probably wouldn't know that's your opinion on their niceness though, and get the wrong idea.

I might be offended by it in normal circumstances. But I'm not nice enough to be called it.

Dragonrider

2009-08-25, 10:52 PM

<.< Nice guys make me want to cuddle them. Not all of them romantically. But yeah.

The Extinguisher

2009-08-25, 10:53 PM

I want to shut myself off from the world forever. I hate every little thing reminding me of what my relationship was or what it could have become. I keep on thinking about the things that we did together and the little things she would do that made me smile. I hate the random thoughts of "she'd like that" and waking up in the night after a dream knowing that a dream is all it will ever be. I hate having to tell everyone about it when they say something perfectly innocent that brings back painful memories.

I hate that it's so hard to move on, when that's all I want to do.

snoopy13a

2009-08-25, 11:30 PM

RabbitHoleLost

2009-08-25, 11:32 PM

Zeb The Troll

2009-08-25, 11:46 PM

Alright, guys, here's something.
Its not exactly a woe on my part, for once.

For some background information, I am the oldest of my siblings, and, so, my dad has the most issue dealing with my, er, "milestones" of growing up. When I hit eighteen, he cried and was grumpy all day.
The first time I told him I went to a club (at age nineteen), he told me I was too young.
He thinks I'm too young and inexperienced to move out on my own, he still tries to steer my life, etc.

How do I tell him his twenty year old baby girl is dating a twenty seven year old man?As a dad? Don't. Don't hide the relationship from him, but don't volunteer the age difference.

If he specifically asks, be flippant about it, but don't lie.

Dad: Oh yeah? How old is he?
You: I don't know, 27 I think.
Dad: :smalleek:
You: I didn't think it was that big of a deal. He treats me well and I like him.
*then show him the xkcd strip that validates the age difference* :smalltongue:

Okay, maybe skip that last part depending on his sense of humor.

It didn't happen for me and my daughter (who is about your age, recall), but in my imaginings the above conversation, while it would still give me pause, would be the best way she could have approached me with that kind of news.

Also, I should get Alarra here to tell how she told her folks. There's a ten year gap between her and me. We're older, but it's still enough of a gap to raise eyebrows. Although, her dad doesn't seem to be as overprotective as yours is, so maybe it won't apply. Then again, her mother is, so maybe it would?

:smallconfused:

*wanders off to let Alarra know to come read this*

snoopy13a

2009-08-25, 11:46 PM

How do I tell him his twenty year old baby girl is dating a twenty seven year old man?

Say that you're pregnant. After his shock, say that you really aren't pregnant This will relieve him and allow you to slip in that you are dating an older man.

I think I'm starting to channel George Constanza with this advice :smalltongue:

loopy

2009-08-25, 11:52 PM

Say that you're pregnant. After his shock, say that you really aren't pregnant This will relieve him and allow you to slip in that you are dating an older man.

I think I'm starting to channel George Constanza with this advice :smalltongue:

My friend tried that when she got a tattoo. Only thing that happened is that she got in trouble twice, haha.

Coidzor

2009-08-25, 11:55 PM

Hmm... Don't and only let it come up if it has to?

In other news. Go hike the Appalachian Trail, Axel. That was my plan for dealing with all of my girl angst, but it sorta fell through due to not being able to get in touch with my hiking buddy.

...I have got to stop wandering off to have chocolate cake in the middle of typing up my post...

Pyrian

2009-08-26, 12:33 AM

RHL: Unfortunately, you know your Dad so much more than we do that it's hard for me to judge; some people take uncomfortable news better when they're told up front "I have some news you might find uncomfortable" rather than getting surprised by the information, and other people just get primed to freak out if they're pre-warned and are much easier to handle if the news just comes out casually at some point. (Interestingly, my parents are each opposites in this regard, which was sometimes inconvenient.) If it was me, I would almost certainly simply behave as I feel about the situation: non-chalant, a la Zeb's commentary above.

"Nice": I actually have a very different perspective on being called "nice" than xPANCAKEx, and it's kind of cool to have a representative example right in the thread in DeeRee. The thing is, the women I tend to be interested in tend to view kindness as a very highly desirable trait. Yet, this isn't really common; as far as I'm concerned a lass like Dragonrider is better than pure spun gold. At the end of the day, I've never actually been seriously interested in a woman who used "nice" as a put-down or dismissal.

So, like many things in life, your mileage may vary. :smallcool:

Cyrano

2009-08-26, 12:37 AM

<.< Nice guys make me want to cuddle them. Not all of them romantically. But yeah.

I get a surprising amount of cuddling for being a total jerk, actually. I don't think I've ever actually met someone like yourself.

xPANCAKEx

2009-08-26, 07:45 AM

Axel

for one thing - don't explain it to everyone when it comes up. If they ask whats bothering you, just cite "bad break up, don't ask" - sometimes talking about it TOO much can be counter productive to the whole "getting over it" deal.

having been in a similar boat, i can advise that it will get easier with time, so just get out there and have fun as snoopy13a advise

RHL

Im gunna jump on the "don't mention the age thing" badwagon. I wouldn't volunteer the information (although i would volunteer things like 'he treats me so well'), but if asked "so how old is he" then be upfront about it

Dragonrider (and Pyrian) re: nice

but if asked to cite what about those guys that makes you feel 'warm and fuzzy' the other guys who don't (even the ones who treat you well) i doubt you'd say 'oh its because he's nice' :smallwink:

Kind is a remark that i'd be happy to recieve... "nice" on the other hand is just so bland its offensive

I have to agree with D'anna Biers - despite being a rotten b*stard to some people, i still am on the receiving end of a lot of affection... young women are very bizarre though at times

Coidzor

2009-08-26, 07:50 AM

Nah, they're just not predators so their heads are different to get into. Well, I mean, they're still human so of course they're going to be one great big bundle of contradictions.

Hmm.

That does raise the question, what is supposed to be meant by nice anyway? It doesn't seem to mean anything. I mean, friendly's not much better but at least you can make some sense of it. Kind as well, but a bit more so.

Then again, I keep expecting people not to be so stupid they don't understand the word "irreparably" when used to modify "damaging," (Yeah, adverbs are evil, I know) and not only are they mystified, they're actually enraged to the point where it feels more like I'm dealing with an anthropomorphic bear-pig than a sapient being.

Klose_the_Sith

2009-08-26, 08:32 AM

Dragonrider (and Pyrian) re: nice

but if asked to cite what about those guys that makes you feel 'warm and fuzzy' the other guys who don't (even the ones who treat you well) i doubt you'd say 'oh its because he's nice' :smallwink:

Kind is a remark that i'd be happy to recieve... "nice" on the other hand is just so bland its offensive

I have to agree with D'anna Biers - despite being a rotten b*stard to some people, i still am on the receiving end of a lot of affection... young women are very bizarre though at times

I'm beyond sweet, nice + affectionate to any girl I meet. I spend my days surrounded by chicks, most of who have now developed an attraction towards me. My girlfriend couldn't be more drawn in.

Nice is an excellent personality trait, so long as you don't make it your DOMINANT trait. The guys who have it as the foot they put forward? They're generally undesirable pushovers, granted, but if you use it as a very prominent but not dominant feature of who you are?

That's what we call the 'sweet spot' :smallcool:

(My dominant trait is bizarre cuteness :smallwink:)

Mando Knight

2009-08-26, 10:10 AM

Also, I should get Alarra here to tell how she told her folks. There's a ten year gap between her and me.

That's a decently large gap...

<.< Nice guys make me want to cuddle them. Not all of them romantically. But yeah.
Its things like this that make me question whether some of the people here are actually my counterparts from a parallel universe... :smallconfused::smalltongue:

Alarra

2009-08-26, 10:56 AM

As a dad? Don't. Don't hide the relationship from him, but don't volunteer the age difference.
I agree with this course of action.

Also, I should get Alarra here to tell how she told her folks. There's a ten year gap between her and me. We're older, but it's still enough of a gap to raise eyebrows. Although, her dad doesn't seem to be as overprotective as yours is, so maybe it won't apply. Then again, her mother is, so maybe it would?
*wanders off to let Alarra know to come read this*
As he said, we're older, and actually my mom was happy with the age difference. Basically her reaction was 'Thank god you're dating someone mature for a change, that actually has things together, has a job, a car, their own place, won't be relying on you to support them for once.' :smalltongue:

The issue that my parents had was with the fact that he has a daughter that's nearly as old as I am and a grandson. Once they met him though, they were very 'Oh yes, he's wonderful and perfect for you. I suppose we'll overlook this whole 'grandfather' thing.'

Umael

2009-08-26, 10:57 AM

Huh. And here I thought couples intentionally spent more...ah...time...together... when one of them was feeling crappy in order to pep 'em up.

Definitely not a universal truth.

Sometimes, when I'm sick, I just feel a little rundown and being pampered is nice. But then, if I'm just feeling a little rundown, I like to continue about my day as normal (in which case, I like to be pampered because, well, I'm a hedonist).

If I am really sick, I'm lost in my misery and I couldn't care less if anyone tried to take care of me or not.

For everything in-between, I'm... unpleasant. I'm sick and unhappy with being sick and VERY anti-social.

Even though their niceness is what makes me feel warm and fuzzy about them? :smalltongue:

I don't really understand it...

But okay.

In part, it is because "nice" has an association with "nice guys finish last". Don't get me wrong, I know what you are talking about. Some people are wonderful to curl up against (especially if they are wearing a warm, fuzzy sweater that makes them look extra cute)... but that's not something that generates a lot of romantic tension. It can be sweet, and soft... but the trouble is that it can also be... sweet... and soft... which can be desirable traits just as well.

I hate that it's so hard to move on, when that's all I want to do.

It gets easier. With time, it gets easier.

He thinks I'm too young and inexperienced to move out on my own, he still tries to steer my life, etc.

How do I tell him his twenty year old baby girl is dating a twenty seven year old man?

Ouch.

Well, I think the big issue is that 20-year-olds aren't babies, and your father needs to accept that. On the other hand, accepting that can be very difficult for some parents.

If I had to venture a guess, I would say that the signs of you growing up remind your father that he is growing old. I gather that you two do have a caring relationship, if a bit lacking in strong communication (at least in one important aspect).

Legally, you are, and have been for two years, your own person, and while your father may mean well, he has to accept you are no longer just "his baby girl", but an adult in your own right and capable of being on your own, making your own mistakes but also celebrating your own independence.

If I may be so bold, assuming (and hoping) that you two do love each other (as every good parent-child relationship should), you should confront him with this. Tell him that you love him (if that is true, and again, I hope so), and ask him, point-blank, if he loves you (and he should). Then remind him that you are not his "baby girl", but an adult, and that he needs to respect that and respect you and your choices.

If and when he agrees, then answer his question about just how old this guy is.

Because it doesn't matter if you are dating an 18-year-old or a 28-year-old, or whether you get a tattoo, or get pregnant, or work in a cabrera or go join a nunnery - these are YOUR choices, as an adult, and as long as they are legal and don't hurt anyone, he has no say but what you give him.

arguskos

2009-08-26, 10:58 AM

That's a decently large gap...
Same as my dad and step-mother (he's 42, she's 32). Not that unusual really.

Mando Knight

2009-08-26, 11:01 AM

Because it doesn't matter if you are dating an 18-year-old or a 28-year-old, or whether you get a tattoo, or get pregnant, or work in a cabrera or go join a nunnery - these are YOUR choices, as an adult, and as long as they are legal and don't hurt anyone, he has no say but what you give him.

Not quite. Since she is an adult now, her dad is well within his rights to kick her out of his house, write her out of his will, etc. If you live in someone else's house, then regardless of how old you are, you are under their authority in matters pertaining to keeping your room.

Dragonrider

2009-08-26, 11:04 AM

My uncle is eleven years older than his wife (my aunt) and eleven years younger than her mother (my grandmother).

I can't pretend that doesn't feel a little weird to me - not the gap so much as the fact of the exact balance between the two. :smalltongue:

On "nice" guys...I dunno. I appreciate thoughtful and considerate, I guess. But as has been discussed in this thread before, I think it's self-confidence that wins girls over more than anything, and the combination of nice+confident is not always easy to find. Because, certainly at a teenage level, niceness isn't really rewarded in school. :smalltongue:

Umael

2009-08-26, 11:11 AM

Not quite. Since she is an adult now, her dad is well within his rights to kick her out of his house, write her out of his will, etc. If you live in someone else's house, then regardless of how old you are, you are under their authority in matters pertaining to keeping your room.

Technically, true, but then again, technically, what I said was:

he has no say but what you give him

That goes two-way - she has no say in what he gives her, including whether he gives her a roof over her head or keeps her in his will.

I guess that does beg the question of how independent you are RHL. I was under the impression that you are living on your own and supporting yourself, but that was quite the assumption to make, I'm afraid.

Cristo Meyers

2009-08-26, 11:13 AM

Not quite. Since she is an adult now, her dad is well within his rights to kick her out of his house, write her out of his will, etc. If you live in someone else's house, then regardless of how old you are, you are under their authority in matters pertaining to keeping your room.

I was going to say...

Direct confrontation with a parent over this is a definite Tread Carefully. If a parent is having issues with the fact that their child is growing up, said child forcing a confrontation (and, dare I say, rubbing the parent's face in it?) can definitely do more harm than good.

It's something that the parent has to learn to deal with, no doubt, but excacerbating it might not be the best course of action. Parents are still people, and people have a really bad habit of making stupid decisions when caught off guard.

Pyrian

2009-08-26, 12:28 PM

Not quite. Since she is an adult now, her dad is well within his rights to kick her out of his house, write her out of his will, etc. If you live in someone else's house, then regardless of how old you are, you are under their authority in matters pertaining to keeping your room.Amusingly, the law treats this sort of situation as a tenancy, and the tenant has a surprising amount of rights in most states. Don't believe me? Just try to evict someone who's refusing to go... ...That being said, I don't think a knock-down drag-out fight is really on the table, here.

...the combination of nice+confident is not always easy to find.I'm convinced that a lack of confidence actually contributes to "nicer" behavior in a significant fraction of the insecure population. Basically, they're afraid people won't like them so they strive to be as congenial as possible in order to counter-act their perception of their own unpleasantness.

Erloas

2009-08-26, 12:43 PM

He thinks I'm too young and inexperienced to move out on my own, he still tries to steer my life, etc.

How do I tell him his twenty year old baby girl is dating a twenty seven year old man?

There really isn't a lot of information here to go on, but I'm going to say something no one else seems to have said yet.

Sometimes parents aren't wrong.

Young adults and teenagers seem to not be able to accept this fact very easily.

At 20 you are in control of what you do (and really you have been for a very long time even if not "legally") but no matter what you think you don't actually have as much experience as you think you do when it comes to just about everything.

Parents also probably know more about their kids then most kids give them credit for.

As for moving out on your own, that is more then reasonable enough to expect your parents to not have a problem with. Moving out "on your own" with a guy (especially one it doesn't seem they've meet or know much about) is something else entirely. Whichever case you have isn't really clear.

Without a lot more detail its hard to say anything for sure. I'm just saying it isn't a bad idea to listen to what your parents have to say.

Zeb The Troll

2009-08-27, 12:54 AM

Ichneumon

2009-08-27, 04:46 AM

I feel age matters less the older you are. So an age gap of 7 years might be big when you are 20, but when you are 30 or 40 or 50 even, it doesn't matter that much.

Silfir

2009-08-27, 08:23 AM

The troublesome part of a 20-27 gap is that within these seven years one part has probably settled in an ordinary adult life of work, and the other has only just started. Age doesn't matter, experience does - independency does.

Equality should be present in any relationship; if one part is dependant on the other too much, he or she might end up clinging to a failed relationship. It's fine to rely on each other and each other's support, but not if that has become the sole reason for the relationship to exist. Relying on someone else is not the same as dependency - dependency is when you can't not rely on someone else even if you wanted, or desperately needed to.

That said, it's also important to take a chance sometimes. Making mistakes and learning from them is the same as living. Moving in together is not irrevocable after all, and no relationship is ever the final one until you die.

If you are not fully financially or emotionally independent from your parents then you should of course not alienate them - well, you never should alienate them ever, of course. Take your father seriously - tell him about it without silly tricks such as the "I'm pregnant" ruse, stay calm and serious. You can't expect to be treated as an adult if you don't do the same, after all. Not sure about the "do it casually" thing. If it's serious for you, and serious for your father, acting like it's not serious is not really going to help anything, right?

You can choose not to volunteer the age difference, but your parents will probably end up knowing later and they'll be angry because you didn't tell them. If you tell them right on and point out that you could have chosen to not tell them but you told them because you love them, take their worries seriously and trust them completely, and that if anything happens of course you will them and you won't let yourself get treaten badly... That should work? I don't have much experience with this kind of thing, but I think your dad would have to have some serious issues if he still got pissy after that.

Your parents are supposed to worry about this stuff. Don't act like they shouldn't, or tell them to stop. Tell them that you'll be worse off in life if they don't let you make your own mistakes and bear the consequences.

Please consider carefully if anything I just said makes sense to you, or for your situation. It might be as much how I'd want it to than how it would really turn out.

Syka

2009-08-27, 08:46 AM

My age-difference thing is exactly the same as Silfir's- experience.

I have a friend whose 27 and my sister is 20, there is no way I could see something ever working out not because of age per se, but because my sister just began at a real university (junior year), meanwhile he's gotten two master's degrees and been in the workforce for almost a decade, in addition to having been married with a child (this has less to do with it because he lost his wife and child in an accident, not to divorce). But experience wise they are totally different.

But I also have friends who met when they were 19 and 24 respectively. Their experience level was similar- he'd joined the military and been discharged for an injury, but out on his own a while. She'd been out on her own and was working on finishing her BA. Their experience level was similar.

Even with the only two year age gap with Oz, when we met our experience level was similar and even though it's changed over the last two years, because we've done it together it's not a huge deal. If we met NOW, I'm not sure it would work entirely well.

Evaluate- REALISTICALLY- both of your experience levels and current place in life. If you guys are in a similar stage (like, if he was delayed from school and is now going back to college, or something like that), emphasize to your dad that you are not that different and he makes you happy and treats you well. If you guys are in different areas, that would probably make it a tad more difficult.

AngelSword

2009-08-27, 05:05 PM

Seattle's not that bad of a place. I could see myself living there. It's not like there's anything tying me here.

…Does she know that?

Klose_the_Sith

2009-08-27, 05:16 PM

Seattle's not that bad of a place. I could see myself living there. It's not like there's anything tying me here.

…Does she know that?

Have you told her?

RabbitHoleLost

2009-08-27, 06:38 PM

Here's the thing about the 27 year old;
We both work at Target.
He's actually already gained a bachelor's from the local university, but hasn't been able to find a job FOR that degree yet. And, as such, is working at Target and is also still living with his family (His sister and brother in law and their baby), SO, in a way, I figure we're still at that equal-experience deal. Neither of us have really had a career yet, we're both still somewhat dependent on family, both working towards not being so dependent, etc.
The only two age-wise problems that have come up are:
1) I have another year til I can legally drink. This shouldn't be much of a problem, except that a lot of his social life is spent at sports bars, which I would totally be cool with, except..you know, I can't get in
2) THE TELLING MY DAD ISSUE
After talking to several people in my real life, and after the majority of you, it seems like the best idea would be to NOT offer up the information unless its asked for, or until it becomes necessary.

Syka

2009-08-27, 06:47 PM

It really depends on your parent, to be honest. My mom, for instance, is one best told up front and frankly. She can be overprotective of me, but when I approach her reasonably and show I know what I'm doing, she concedes. If I hide something it makes it worse.

If your dad is anything like my mom, if you approach him in a "I know what I'm doing, here are ways I will protect myself, here is why I think this is a good idea. I want your approval, but this is a choice I have already made." rather than "I have a boyfriend....he's 27.", it'll go over a lot better.

Then again, if he doesn't listen even when you present stuff logically, your best bet is to just let him ask if it comes up.

xyzzy

2009-08-29, 02:50 AM

So, I'm datin' someone now. And I'm really happy about it! But I think this is definitely something I want to maintain long-term, so I have some questions for all ya'll:

1. What's a good time frame for moving from just dating to exclusively-dating boyfriend/girlfriend?
2. What's the best way to approach this subject at that point in time?

Coidzor

2009-08-29, 03:24 AM

Hmm. 1. age-bracket?
2. Are you sure you aren't now?
3. How many dates have you been on?
4. How long have you "been seeing" her?

Rabbazabba: He even want you with him and da boyz at the sports bars anyway? :smallconfused:

xPANCAKEx

2009-08-29, 10:37 AM

xyzzy

coidzilla had some relavent questions re: #1

re: #2 - often i find things are best said simply. My last serious relationship, after seeing each other a while, i just asked "do you wanna be my girl"... lame i know, but it worked.

AngelSword

2009-08-29, 04:11 PM

I might be meeting her tomorrow.

Coidzor

2009-08-29, 04:13 PM

What sort of meeting again?

AngelSword

2009-08-29, 04:18 PM

What sort of meeting again?

At the very least, I have to voice my feelings to her, as clearly as I can.

I've been led to believe that her reasoning may have been muddled by other factors, and I have to know for sure.

Coidzor

2009-08-29, 05:07 PM

Ah, worked out what you want to say to her yet?

AngelSword

2009-08-29, 07:28 PM

It's a terrible mix of anger and sadness, of a strength I've never felt, that I truly don't know what to do.

Coidzor

2009-08-29, 07:30 PM

Hmm. What do you want?

Keld Denar

2009-08-29, 08:21 PM

I must say, Seattle is a VERY wonderful place to live if you find yourself relocating. Look into Queen Anne or Cap Hill if do end up in the neighborhood. Both are VERY fun places to be for a youngish person to be with tons of bars, restraunts, and similarly youngish persons to become friends with.

toddex

2009-08-30, 09:04 PM

Mikeavelli

2009-08-30, 09:22 PM

Well I have a problem! Im not dating this chick, im pretty much just hanging with her as friends. My friends all say shes totally into me, I disagree. I really do like her but the problem is I feel like im bricked in. I cant throw it all on the line and tell her how im into her and I think shes ****ing amazing. One of her stories she was telling me was about this guy she was friends with her confessed his devoted lover to her or something in a very weird way. Long story short she was freaked out and is not talking to him anymore (There are other factors for that also him being a general douche bag.) THE NEXT ONE was a friend of mine, and I use the term 'friend' very loosely. I am associated with him though. He was creepy enough for her to delete him from face book and the whole shabang. SO! I feel that if I were to say EXACTLY how I feel she would get freaked and the whole thing is shot. I have no idea what to do.

You're in the "Friend zone" and you're pretty much boned.

There's still hope, but the longer you wait, the less likely you are to ever have an actual relationship with this girl.

So for the sake of all that is good in this world TELL HER. I'm not going to lie to you, chances are she's going to say something along the lines of "I don't like you like that" - and you'll be disappointed.

However:

1. If she does say "yes, I'd love to!" You win.

2. If she says "no" than you don't have this crush hanging over your head anymore, and you can move on.

3. If she says "maybe" it really means no.

Either way, you've got some resolution.

Naturally, you have to do it right, don't be clingy or over-the-top or creepy, just ask her out, and say something along the lines of "I like you as more than a friend. Let's go out on a date." You and her alone doing something you both enjoy.

At this point, the phrase "I love you" is creepy\frightening\etc. Sounds like that's what that ******* before you said, with predictable results.

[hr]

Also, if you find yourself waiting for "the right time" you're doing it wrong. The time is right now. Work out what you're going to say, consult a friend in person that knows you two better if you have to, and call her tonight.

xPANCAKEx

2009-08-30, 09:26 PM

Toddex

re the previous guys: The first guy came on WAY too strong and thats bound to scare off most people. the 2nd is a creep, so that pretty much says it all. So don't worry about them

telling her how you feel doesn;t neccisarily mean telling her EXACTLY how you feel, and sometimes keeping it simple can do wonders. In some cases, if theres mutual body language its better to say nothing but DO something about it - actions being louder than words and that jazz

those friends who have told you that shes into you, pick the one you feel is closest to her (ie: if its one of her best friends, go for them), and ask them about it next time they mention it. Ask them why they think shes into you, and see what they say... don't inquire too much, but if a few people seem to think it, its usually a case of 'no smoke without fire'

as for making a move - rejection is better than regret. Whether you say "hey. how about i take you out for a night some time?" or whether you go to kiss her its fine. If it doesn't work out, you can keep your head held high (as long as you act in a calm and confident manner through-out) and dont run a mile afterwards. If she runs a mile over meerly being asked out or someone moving in for a kiss (as long as its not done in a threatening manner) after so many people have said shes into you, then you won't face any shame or public humiliation. Infact its likely to be "really, dude... what the hell is her problem?"

be direct.
be calm
be confident

make her feel at ease in the situation and it will all work out fine