Ok some one help me decide..

[Paganboy28]

Ok, you are now me. You are creating a character with the following proviso's...

8 ECL to play around with,
Prefer ranged combat to melee,
Have played a caster class ever since you picked up the game and so want to try something else,
Dislike humans and like playing something "different",
Don't want to be a complete wimp and die when you get him with a wet sponge,
Like having lots of skills and the ability to do things,
Like things like invisibility, and sneaking about and such,
Prefer neutral, or chaotic alignments,

So far I have thought about being...

Dragon Shaman
Sounds funky, seem to have some nice abilities, though never played one.

Druid
Seem to be the best all-rounder and wild shape does sound fun.

Archivist
Getting back to my routes sort of just on the divine side of things... so maybe not.

Ranger
Sort of a bit of spell casting, with sniper skills and such.

Scout
Bit like the ranger expect more sneaking less casting.

Warlock
Right back to my routes and I know the class well.... so comfort zone but not different.

I don't know..... tooo much to think about. Let alone race!!!

[Dragonmuncher]

Hm... Warlock/Rogue?

[Paganboy28]

Hm... Warlock/Rogue?

That was my last character; a Changeling Rogue/warlock.

Was fun, but been there done that.

[nysisobli]

favored soul?

[Hat-Trick]

Since the point is to get away from casters, ToB may not be the best choice for this. It's pretty much casting by another name. I personally like the look of the knight, but those are lawful. Dragon Shaman is an interesting class, but many believe it to be slightly underpowered, but still very playable.

[Blackfang108]

Duskling Incarnate 7/ Necrocarnate 1.

Duskling: Outsider(fey, few other things)

Ohh, Neutral... Hmm... (Necrocarnate must be evil.)

CN Incarnate 8, then.

d8 HD (could be d6, AFB)
Medium Armor
CON based class, with WIS as secondary(but dumpable, don't pick melds with saving throws).

Put Some into DEX and use ranged attacks. you'll have plenty of ways to boos those.

[kemmotar]

You could go scout/ranger...you can get some hefty ranged damage, pick up the feat from complete scoundrel or complete adventurer (don't remember which one it was) that lets you stack favoured enemy and skirmish..You move alot and can help with survival checks (maybe track something if appropriate to the campaign)...plus you get some spells to work with so you're not completely outside your comfort zone...You could probably use some wands (invis is in the spell list of the ranger right?) to supplement.

If you wanna go the stealthy ranged way you can still get hide and move silently and woodland sniper ( i think it was called) that allows you to rehide after shooting and then you just move away from that spot...superior invis will help greatly...

Or perhaps you can go scout/rogue and take the feat from compelte scoundrel that stacks SA and skirmish and do something similar...UMD for a few spells you might need (again not completely out of your comfort zone but still far away enough that you're not playin a caster in both cases).

You might also wanna pick up whisper gnome negating move silently checks with silence or if you wanna play assassin too, the silence strike that on a successful hit silences the victim (no save if I remember correctly).

PS: apologies for all the "i think"s and "if i remember correctly"s, i'm at work and don't have access to books.

[Curmudgeon]

"Something different" for a race should be something with a good DEX bonus. How about an air goblin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm#airGoblins)?

A Favored Soul could work if you pick a deity with a bow as favored weapon. Shevarash (a Forgotten Realms deity) is chaotic neutral and favors a longbow. This gives you Weapon Proficiency (longbow), Weapon Focus (longbow), and Weapon Specialization (longbow) as class features.

If you want to add an interesting twist, try making her (because it'll have to be a her) an undercover agent. Shevarash is violently opposed to Lolth and drow. As a goblinoid you're racially neutral as far as drow are concerned. So you could even infiltrate to the extent of picking up the Lolth-touched template (Monster Manual IV, pages 92-94), which gives +6 STR and +6 CON. It makes you chaotic evil, but that's only one step from Shevarash's alignment, so should not cause alignment issues. This more than makes up for the STR and CON deficits that air goblins have. And getting that close to the enemy would cement your place in the underdark establishment. Meanwhile you could be gathering information on drow positions, supplies, and weaknesses.

Most opposed deities have opposed alignments. Lolth-touched is a powerful template but the extreme alignment requirement makes it hard for many alignment-restricted characters to adopt. This is one case where opposed deities have similar alignments, and I've always been curious about how this could play out for an undercover operative of Shevarash.

Being an agent would require you to devote a lot of your limited spell selection to things that would help you sneak around and gather information. The same goes for gear -- don't forget your Hat of Disguise! Could be fun to try, though. :smallsmile:

[Paganboy28]

Thanks for all the ideas so far.

I keep coming back to the Pixie and the idea of a Pixie Sniper character appeals to me, even though its a +4 LA which hurts. Being able to use invisibility at will (though not Greater Invisibility due to DM grrrr) sounds great especially if I can rehide after attacking.

Beware the 3ft elf with a longbow! Mwahahahaaa.

Though what makes the best "sniper"... fighter, ranger, scout, rogue, or what????


Hmm a Pixie Assassin at range sounds good to.... :D

[Paganboy28]

As a thought...

Whats the Artificer class like from Eberron?

Or the Gnome Artificer PrC in Magic of Faerun?


I have had an idea for a while of playing a character like a Cleric of Gond who grafts technology onto himself, has outlandish uber-weapons (firearms, bombs, etc) and has an army of loyal constructs at his beck and call.

[Curmudgeon]

I keep coming back to the Pixie and the idea of a Pixie Sniper character appeals to me, even though its a +4 LA which hurts. Being able to use invisibility at will (though not Greater Invisibility due to DM grrrr) sounds great especially if I can rehide after attacking.
Note that if your DM specifically said "at will" that defaults to a standard action unless otherwise specified. Better check if the change is just to the spell being emulated, or the whole mechanism.

[Paganboy28]

Are the Warforged from the Eberron campaign setting a good base race to play?

[Paganboy28]

Note that if your DM specifically said "at will" that defaults to a standard action unless otherwise specified. Better check if the change is just to the spell being emulated, or the whole mechanism.

I believe he said "at will" as in its a standard action to activate.

[Glyde]

Halfling scout, rogue or ranger with dual slings. Bonus points if your animal companion is a pet rock that you use in said slings when you get mad at it for making a mess of your backpack.

[sonofzeal]

Dragon Shaman: Very weak class, from what I've seen. Check out the Dragonfire Adept from "Dragon Magic" for a much more playable take on the same idea.

Druid: Very flexible and powerful class, kind of brokenly powerful as-is, but a good basic fix is to prohibit wearing any gear at all in Wildshape form, and limit access to obscure forms.

Archivist: Very VERY powerful class, if they have full access to Divine Bards, Domain Scrolls, etc. They're also useless if they don't have any access to scrolls. I'd keep them to Core spells from the Druid/Cleric lists to start with, and offer more obscure stuff as loot or rewards. They're a fun class though, if you hit the right balance.

Ranger/Scout: Check out the "Swift Hunter" feat from Complete Scoundrel, which lets you effectively combine the two classes.

Warlock: Dependable if not exciting. Can steal invocations off the Dragonfire Adept list to mix things up a bit.

Artificer: Fairly campaign-dependent. If your DM gives you lots of gold and doesn't mind you making custom items by DMG rules, this is ungodly powerful. Conversely, if there's little gold around then he's useless. Artificers basically solve all their problems by throwing money at it, and if they throw enough money then they can do terrifying things, so it all depends on how well you as a player can conserve and gather resources. Do not optimize this guy too much, or you will break the game. Besides, the concept you list sounds more like an Effigy Master from Complete Arcane.

[Eldariel]

Mystic Ranger sounds like it could be your thing. That or Ranger 2/Fighter 1/Barbarian 1/Warblade 4, going for Eternal Blade (thus Elf) as an Archer-build. ToB gives you quite the melee prowess and you get nice commander-abilities from White Raven and extra attacks for your bows from Tiger Claw.

You also have a nice bunch of skills (although Eternal Blade only gets 2/level, but some Int will help that and both, Warblade and Eternal Blade get nice bunches of abilities derived off Int) and such. Basically a Warblade Archer, but taking few levels in the other classes to cover Archery feats, proficiencies and skills.

[Paganboy28]

Dragon Shaman: Very weak class, from what I've seen. Check out the Dragonfire Adept from "Dragon Magic" for a much more playable take on the same idea.

Druid: Very flexible and powerful class, kind of brokenly powerful as-is, but a good basic fix is to prohibit wearing any gear at all in Wildshape form, and limit access to obscure forms.

Archivist: Very VERY powerful class, if they have full access to Divine Bards, Domain Scrolls, etc. They're also useless if they don't have any access to scrolls. I'd keep them to Core spells from the Druid/Cleric lists to start with, and offer more obscure stuff as loot or rewards. They're a fun class though, if you hit the right balance.

Ranger/Scout: Check out the "Swift Hunter" feat from Complete Scoundrel, which lets you effectively combine the two classes.

Warlock: Dependable if not exciting. Can steal invocations off the Dragonfire Adept list to mix things up a bit.

Artificer: Fairly campaign-dependent. If your DM gives you lots of gold and doesn't mind you making custom items by DMG rules, this is ungodly powerful. Conversely, if there's little gold around then he's useless. Artificers basically solve all their problems by throwing money at it, and if they throw enough money then they can do terrifying things, so it all depends on how well you as a player can conserve and gather resources. Do not optimize this guy too much, or you will break the game. Besides, the concept you list sounds more like an Effigy Master from Complete Arcane.


Effigy Master is too spell-orientated and I want to get away from that. An Artificer seems to be able to create any spell they like which is AWESOME if expensive....

[AB]

Scout4/Ranger X, Swift Hunter (levels stack for Fav. Enemy and Skirmish) - Feats Manyshot (comes for free with ranger) + Improved Manyshot, Improved Skirmish. Lots of damage. Lots of. Take Undead as Favored Enemy, so you can skirmish them.
If you wanna try something funny in addition, take Knowledge Devotion and get extra damage for Knowledge about monsters, "I`m a professional monster hunter, I know everything `bout `em." Education (feat from the Forgotten Realm Campaign Setting/Players Guide) helps with gaining all the Knowledge Skills as Class skills. You`ve got plenty of Skillpoints from your base classes.

Best race for this ist that halfling race from FR that gets a bonus feat, as humans do. Some Energy Crystal for your weapon, and save your money for ring of invis of what you like to get more sneaky.

[Vortling]

Rogue/Master Thrower (Comp Warrior)? Throw lots and lots of daggers or whatever else you want with a short but neat list of throwing tricks.

Warblade/Bloodstorm Blade (Tome of Battle)? Bash people at range with auto returning greatswords.

[PinkysBrain]

(though not Greater Invisibility due to DM grrrr)
Talk that into a LA decrease ...

[Paganboy28]

I am quite liking the Artificer from Eberron at the moment. Seems pretty flexible and a different sort of "magic" from the ones I am used to playing, though still within my comfort zone sort of.

If allowed, I might play a Warforged and take some of the racial substitutions.

Still not sure if Warforged are a good race though... they seem to have the bad sides of both living and constructs!

[Paganboy28]

Talk that into a LA decrease ...

Tried... didn't work.

Lots of racial bonuses, etc...

[Eloel]

Try a Raptoran Fighter archer, with the Raptoran PrC that improves flight & talons & footbow. It's not really optimized, but proves to be VERY fun.
You could also go Raptoran Cleric-Spear Thrower, getting the PrC that gives you Shocking on your spears (+3 Shocking Burst Thundering Spears at price of normal Spears is nothing to sneeze at. You can possibly get upto +16 weapon [+1 Flaming Burst Icy Burst Brilliant Energy Returning Spear thrown by this PrC gets +3 enhancement +6d6 elemental damage, Returning, attacking at touch AC, dealing 6d10+2d8 extra elemental damage on a crit), using Control Weather to ensure storm at all times.


Rogue/Master Thrower (Comp Warrior)? Throw lots and lots of daggers or whatever else you want with a short but neat list of throwing tricks.

And while at that, add Invisible Blade for nice dagger-related stuff.

[Eldariel]

I am quite liking the Artificer from Eberron at the moment. Seems pretty flexible and a different sort of "magic" from the ones I am used to playing, though still within my comfort zone sort of.

If allowed, I might play a Warforged and take some of the racial substitutions.

Still not sure if Warforged are a good race though... they seem to have the bad sides of both living and constructs!

It's a trade-off, but the immunities they get really kick royal ass early on. No Sleep, for example, is huge. Also, later on you can access the Construct Essence-line of spells (Races of Eberron) which enables you to gain Construct-immunities when it suits you. And they qualify for a bunch of the best racial feats ever. Being healable is actually a boon, btw.

Warforged are a fine race, really, and easily in the higher levels of the LA+0 (though they're no Humans/Strongheart Halflings, of course).

[Paganboy28]

It's a trade-off, but the immunities they get really kick royal ass early on. No Sleep, for example, is huge. Also, later on you can access the Construct Essence-line of spells (Races of Eberron) which enables you to gain Construct-immunities when it suits you. And they qualify for a bunch of the best racial feats ever. Being healable is actually a boon, btw.

Warforged are a fine race, really, and easily in the higher levels of the LA+0 (though they're no Humans/Strongheart Halflings, of course).

Being healable isn't the bit I meant. They take damage from a whole load of places in addition to normal races, they have an overall -2 racial stat line, they take only half healing spell effects, etc.

I like them for flavour at the moment.

I assume they have to be a caster to access the Construct Essence spells.... not really a WF forte.

[Eldariel]

Being healable isn't the bit I meant. They take damage from a whole load of places in addition to normal races, they have an overall -2 racial stat line, they take only half healing spell effects, etc.

I like them for flavour at the moment.

I assume they have to be a caster to access the Construct Essence spells.... not really a WF forte.

I do it with friendly casters, potions and Use Magic Device. But yeah, Warforged Artificers are nice. I must point out that early on, Adamantine Body is a really nice feat getting you a free Full-Plate and DR. Gets worse later on, of course.

[Paganboy28]

OK, so lets assume. Warforged Artificer....

Whats do you spend points in???? I have 30 points to spend on abilities. With a +2 CON, -2 WIS, -2 CHA thats a potentially dodgy stat line.

[Paganboy28]

I do it with friendly casters, potions and Use Magic Device. But yeah, Warforged Artificers are nice. I must point out that early on, Adamantine Body is a really nice feat getting you a free Full-Plate and DR. Gets worse later on, of course.

What do you mean? Can't you infuse your armoured body?

[kemmotar]

Warforged are quite good indeed, also with artificer you can just heal yourself with the repair line of spells which is essentially the same with the cure line...you can just make the third hand thingy to hold an extra wand of repair for whenever you need it...

could go with the wand feat chain and go nova whenever you feel like it if that's the way you wanna go...

[Dracomorph]

What do you mean? Can't you infuse your armoured body?

Yep, you can even permanently enchant it. But later, the mobility you lose since you have to wear heavy armor all the time becomes more important, since everything else starts to move faster.

[Doc Roc]

Though what makes the best "sniper"... fighter, ranger, scout, rogue, or what????

Archivist.

Take a look. (http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-762006)

[Eldariel]

What do you mean? Can't you infuse your armoured body?

Sure you can. I was talking of non-Artificer Warforged. Also, see above for truly best archery.

[Lord Loss]

Dragon Shaman: I Rain Draconic Hell Upon your head while FLYING!

I say dragon shaman or scout.

[Doc Roc]

If (Scout):
good_build = self.find_symbol(Swift_hunter)
self.assume(good_build)

[Thrawn183]

Half Dragon Ogre.

You can fly. You can throw giant hammers at people. You can carry potions of invisibility if you need them.

Hello +18 Strength and large size.

[sofawall]

Hello, LA 5 and RHD 4...

EDIT: And by that I mean ECL 9, one too high. You can't buy off that LA for a while :P

[Charlie Kemek]

you could also try the dragonfire adept (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060912a&page=2). It is basically a combination of the dragon shaman and the warlock. you could be a dragonborn (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060105b&page=1) of any race. take a look. it's a bit different, yet strikingly similar.

[Doc Roc]

Half Dragon Ogre.

You can fly. You can throw giant hammers at people. You can carry potions of invisibility if you need them.

Hello +18 Strength and large size.

I think this is not so hot a plan.... I second dragon born.

[HolderofSecrets]

I think this is not so hot a plan.... I second dragon born.

Dragonborn can be tricky as you must choose a base race. I suggest Humans Elves Catfolk and Goliaths.

Humans because what you get from them is basically normal Dragonborn.
Elves because they zero out Dragonborn stat mods.
Catfolk because you retain the speed and end up with +2 Con Dex and Cha for LA+1.
Goliath because you retain Powerful Build and end up with +4 Str Con -4 Dex though.

Avoid Dwarves because you keep the speed penalty but not the not slowed part.

[Doc Roc]

Dragonborn warforged are also actually legal, and totally hilarious because seriously: Mecha. Godzilla.

[elliott20]

Mecha. Godzilla.
MechaGodzilla demands that you play this now!
http://godzilla.monstrous.com/mechagodzilla.jpg

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

For an archer I'd recommend a Scout/Archivist/Prestige Ranger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm#prestigeRanger) with Swift Hunter.

If you're going to make a Dragonborn Dragon Shaman, get the Heart aspect for another breath weapon available at level 1. That lets you get Entangling Exhalation and Recover Breath before level 6, which is almost necessary for the Dragon Shaman's breath attack to be of much use. If you can take flaws get Shield Specialization and Shield Ward, and pick up Imperious Command from Drow of the Underdark at level 6, along with the skill trick Never Outnumbered. Pay 3000 gp to get Skill Focus: Intimidate via the Otyugh Hole detailed in Complete Scoundrel, and grab the feat Frightful Presence from the Draconomicon at level 9. I'd go with a Water Halfling (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm#racesOfWater) Dragonborn, since you'd keep your swim speed and the total ability score adjustments would be Str -2, Con +4. Your two breath attacks are tracked separately for how long you have to wait between breaths, and each would be at 1d4-1 rounds due to Recover Breath. That means you can use a breath attack nearly every round, and always use Entangling Exhalation to keep your opponents debuffed. If you can't use a breath weapon, make an Intimidate check to demoralize a foe. Your opponents won't really be able to move past you to attack other characters, and their attacks and AC will be reduced, so this makes a much better tanking-role character than anything that relies on melee attacks.

[Hawriel]

Halfling scout, rogue or ranger with dual slings. Bonus points if your animal companion is a pet rock that you use in said slings when you get mad at it for making a mess of your backpack.

Bad ass. I was thinking the same thing. Although my idea could also use the master thrower prc and throw skip rocks. Magic returning skip rocks. And his animal companion a pitoskey stone. His name could be Pete Pitoskey.

[Eloel]

I'm now forming an interesting Gestalt idea.
Dragonborn Kobold Dragonfire Adept//Dragon Shaman
Sell yourself as the avatar of dragonhood.

[sofawall]

Bad ass. I was thinking the same thing. Although my idea could also use the master thrower prc and throw skip rocks. Magic returning skip rocks. And his animal companion a pitoskey stone. His name could be Pete Pitoskey.

I demand you use this. (http://www.giantitp.com/articles/CsORDNEyp2GRLIhacLj.html)

[Talic]

Archetype: Rogue, Halfling.

At the level indicated, you could have 2 substitution levels, which increases sneak dice with thrown weapons, and decreases it with melee. At level 10, you can get super sniping.

Combine with woodland archer (Races of the Wild), HiPS, and darkstalker (Lords of Madness).

You can be mobile, have decent damage, from hiding, and, thanks to halfling, full attack snipe with only a -10 to hide, rather than -20 (by level 10).

You've got chaotic, sniping, damage, and concealment, four of your major points.

Far shot would let you have range increment 20 with even the shortest range weapons, and Gauntlets of Extended Range (MIC) push that to 30, for maximum attack bonuses on sneak attacks. If they're Acid or Alch fire, you can deal good sneak attack damage as a touch attack (Flat-footed for most things).

Best of all? The only magic items you really need are ones that are useful anyway. Dexterity boosters, that gauntlet above is only 2k... Magic returning javelins would be a good addition, and you can always hit up a level of warblade at 11, and have Bloodstorm Blade 4 by level 15 (for insta returning weapons). At that point... Probably Shadow strike would be a good enhancement (overcomes any alignment or metal based DR after the first hit, Tome of Magic).

[Doc Roc]

You could also snag the endless javelins item and obviate the need for expensive weapon enchantments entirely.

[Talic]

You could also snag the endless javelins item and obviate the need for expensive weapon enchantments entirely.

That doesn't bypass material components, though.

It would eliminate the need for BSB 4 though, at the cost of not letting you have enchanted weapons to throw.

[Doc Roc]

Until you get BsB it's an excellent option that covers a lot of weaknesses in throwers well. And if you don't think you'll reach BsB... :: shrug ::

[Paganboy28]

Again, thanks for all the advice.

It was a toss up between the Dragonfire Adept and an Artificer.

Seeing as I have been a warlock before and the DFA is pretty close to that, I have plumped for the Artificer (Eberron campaign setting).

I have also chosen to be a Warforged Artificier (though the DM has changed Warforged to native outsiders of Mechanus). I like the idea of being able to make pretty much anything I like and then infusing my own body with awesome destructiveness. Plus Warforged components sound good to being able to swap parts of my body out dependant on the situation. I have also taken the Tools of War racial sub level as it seems to double the Craft Reserve which is awesome.

Can anyone foresee any disadvantages to being a native outsider?
(apart from hedging out and banishment and such... hmmm will ask the DM about compensation).


So in light of this, does anyone have any thoughts as to feats?

I have 4 general feats to choose (plus 2 bonus feats from Artificer).

I have chosen:
Extend Spell (bonus)
Persistant Spell (24hr buffs using wands!) (bonus)

Adamantine Body (not sure about this one... it limits my Dex to +1 which could affect my ability to hit with wand attacks, but the AC bonus is great. Maybe Mithril Body would be a compromise?).

Other three feats could be:

Reach Spell (give those touch attacks some range)
Silver Tracery (pre-req for Spellcraft Soldier PrC)
Steady Concentration (take 10 on Concentration checks all the time to ensure infusions and wands and such can be used in battle)
Improved Initiative (always good and my Dex is only +1 at the moment)
Skill Focus UMD (obviously very important skill for Artificier)
Point Blank Shot (better to hit with wands)
Maximise Spell (uber blasty wands)

Any others?

Any other WF Artificer tips (items, stats, feats, progression, etc)???

[Doc Roc]

Um.... Free native outsider?
People are often willing to eat +1 LA just for native outsider. Go read polymorph carefully.

[Kaiyanwang]

Um.... Free native outsider?
People are often willing to eat +1 LA just for native outsider. Go read polymorph carefully.

Not only this. IIRC, there is something about weapon proficiency, too.

[Doc Roc]

Oh yes. Full martial weapon proficiency as well. There may be other things, but I can never remember them. See, once I start drooling helplessly, other things tend to become moderately secondary.

[Lyndworm]

Not necessarily the most efficient of effective ranged build, but definitely fun to play: Thri-Kreen Ranger. For +1 LA and 2 RHD, you, too, can throw 12 javelins a round at ECL 13 (with LA buyoff).

This runs off the little-known fact that Multiweapon Fighting replaces Two-Weapon Fighting for all purposes (provided you have three or more hands, of course). So when Ranger grants you your Combat Styles, you can get them a few levels early because you don't have to meet the prerequisites (which include a BAB of +15).

You read that right. Eleven class levels gives you the ability to take a feat that is otherwise impossible (and perhaps game-shattering, depending on who you talk to) to get before level fifteen.

Top it off with a few levels of Master Thrower, why don't you. Palm Throw is nice, pick that up and trade the javelins for a few daggers... like maybe 24 a round?

I love Thri-Kreen. If you're really committed, you can pick up the Multiheaded template from Savage Species. An additional +1 LA and 2 more RHD (eww, I know, but bear with me), and never take penalties for fighting with multiple weapons again (also +2 Spot and +2 Con, but that's not what this is about). That's right, even if they're one-handed.

If you're willing to forsake Palm Throw, you can pull off a bunch of nasty stuff with Swift Hunter (though this will push your 15th-turned-11th level feat back into a 15th level feat, and hurt your BAB).

Just something to think about.

[Another_Poet]

Pixie Rogue moving toward Assassin?