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View Full Version : [3.5]Beguiler's casting stat



Thurbane
2009-08-11, 04:45 PM
Just curious, does anyone have any theories why the Beguiler's casting stat is INT? Every other spontaneous arcane caster I can think of (Bard, Sorcerer, Warmage, Dread Necromancer) casts from CHA. Did I miss any that don't cast from CHA?

CHA would also seem to make sense for a Beguiler, since he is depicted as a bit of a trickster or flim-flam artist. Having INT as their stat makes an already very good class even better.

MisterSaturnine
2009-08-11, 04:49 PM
Just curious, does anyone have any theories why the Beguiler's casting stat is INT? Every other spontaneous arcane caster I can think of (Bard, Sorcerer, Warmage, Dread Necromancer) casts from CHA. Did I miss any that don't cast from CHA?

CHA would also seem to make sense for a Beguiler, since he is depicted as a bit of a trickster or flim-flam artist. Having INT as their stat makes an already very good class even better.

If I'm not mistaken, Intelligence determines the highest level spell they can cast, but Charisma determines their DCs.

Kelpstrand
2009-08-11, 04:52 PM
If I'm not mistaken, Intelligence determines the highest level spell they can cast, but Charisma determines their DCs.

You are mistaken, they Are Int only.

Beguilers are also portrayed as skilled know it alls who are really smart. Personally, it makes them better skill monkeys so it's fine by me.

arkol
2009-08-11, 04:55 PM
And yet they're still not on par with wizards, druids, etc... they are however way less broken then those... so if you allow those classes as they are into your games no reason to change the beguiler.

However if those classes are banned or heavily nerfed and you use favoured sould sinstead of clerics and other similar options, making them both charisma and int for spellcasting is not a bad idea.

Chrono22
2009-08-11, 04:56 PM
I guess it could have fallen either way. Charisma seems like it would be better for enchantment type effects, and intelligence would favor illusions.
I prefer having the Int, as I enjoy having enough skill ranks to have many talents.

Leewei
2009-08-11, 05:08 PM
Beguilers are (mostly criminal) masterminds. They scheme, they manipulate, they fabricate elaborate mistruths. Their knowledge of the minds and desires of their victims fuels their spells. They rival Rogues in their mastery of skills.

What'd make sense to me would be Int determining bonus spells and maximum level and Charisma determining DC. As it stands, Int is a fine stat to use.

Flickerdart
2009-08-11, 05:22 PM
Most Beguilers would like good CHA anyways because they get all social skills and UMD. They only really need INT anyways, DEX and CHA is just the icing on the cake and STR, WIS and CON don't much matter.

Frosty
2009-08-11, 05:32 PM
Most Beguilers would like good CHA anyways because they get all social skills and UMD. They only really need INT anyways, DEX and CHA is just the icing on the cake and STR, WIS and CON don't much matter.

Yeah right. D6 HD means CON matters a LOT.

Flickerdart
2009-08-11, 05:36 PM
Yeah right. D6 HD means CON matters a LOT.
It matters to the Beguiler even less than it should matter to the Wizard. Neither one is supposed to be running around on the battlefield! Beguiler has Hide/Move Silently, all the nice Illusions and Conjurations like Obscuring Mist. If you wade into combat, you won't have enough CON unless you sacrifice important and useful stats.

Captain Alien
2009-08-11, 05:50 PM
What? This is the first time I read something like that. Constitution does not matter for Beguilers, Wizards and Sorcerers? Are you sure? I mean, everybody says Constitution is vital for them.

Fax Celestis
2009-08-11, 05:53 PM
What? This is the first time I read something like that. Constitution does not matter for Beguilers, Wizards and Sorcerers? Are you sure? I mean, everybody says Constitution is vital for them.

*ahem* "Real spellcasters don't need Con because no one ever gets close enough to deal damage."

Frosty
2009-08-11, 05:55 PM
*ahem* "Real spellcasters don't need Con because no one ever gets close enough to deal damage."

For Wizards, I agree. They have too many defenses and good spells. Beguilers don't even get Fly, and only have Mirror Image, Displacement, and Invisibility to protect themselves. Good, but not perfect.

Sinfire Titan
2009-08-11, 06:34 PM
*ahem* "Real spellcasters don't need Con because no one ever gets close enough to deal damage."

2 words: Fort. Saves.


Duskblades are Int-based too. Makes more sense than Cha.

Kelpstrand
2009-08-11, 07:07 PM
For Wizards, I agree. They have too many defenses and good spells. Beguilers don't even get Fly, and only have Mirror Image, Displacement, and Invisibility to protect themselves. Good, but not perfect.

And Greater Mirror Image, the best thing ever, but yeah, they still need Con.

Con is Fort saves and HP, Dex is AC reflex saves and Initiative.

Initiative is not so important that I'd say you don't need HP and Fort saves.

Captain Six
2009-08-11, 10:43 PM
I figured that they just realized that Charisma Spontaneous casters were those with innate talent through some rare and mysterious means, and by rare and mysterious I mean every arcane spellcasting class ever. Apart from the wizard and its Asian buddy I can't think of any other Int based prepared spellcasters, you know, how magic is supposed to work. Duskblade and Beguiler took a step in the right direction at least, I still wish they were prepared casters.

Mongoose87
2009-08-11, 10:48 PM
Maybe it's so they aren't MAD when they do Ultimate Magus with a Wizard?

dspeyer
2009-08-11, 10:52 PM
It's never explained how beguilers access magic. Wizards know tricks for manipulating reality. Sorcerers shape it by innate power and force of will. So far so good.

Beguilers? My favorite theory is that they're lesser wizards. If a wizard is programming in C, a beguiler is using VB. It's much easier, so you can do other things, and much faster, so you don't need to prepare, but it's much less versatile. Following this analogy would suggest that beguiler magic was created by an extremely capable wizard some time in the distant past. That seems good too.

Sliver
2009-08-11, 11:06 PM
Apart from the wizard and its Asian buddy I can't think of any other Int based prepared spellcasters

I can think of the divine wizard, the Archivist..