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Kizara
2009-08-11, 06:57 PM
Ok, so I've got into GURPS and have been playing it a bit now. Great system, only a few complaints that I won't go into here.


So, as my current character is low-fantasy low magic etc, I thought it would be fun to make up a high-fantasy character. So, I made a Blackgaurd that drew supernatural powers from a dark pact with evil gods.

Which brings me to balance issue A: The Pact Limitation.

As it allows you to reduce ANY advantage (or basically anything, the way I read it, although I only used it for advantages I could've used it for more ST or the like) by an amount equal to the disadvantages associated with the pact, it is very easy to be abusive with this.

Here's my character:
Verek Firebane (300 points)
Age 80 (34); Human

ST 18 [80]; DX 10 [0]; IQ 11 [20]; HT 15 [50].
Damage 1d+2/3d; BL 65 lbs.; HP 30 [24]; Will 11 [0]; Per 13 [10]; FP 16 [3].
Basic Speed 6.25 [0]; Basic Move 6 [0]; Block 0; Dodge 10; Parry 13 (Flail).

Social Background
TL: 3 [0].
CF:
Languages:

Advantages
Ambidexterity [5]; Appearance (Attractive) [4]; Blessed (Heroic Feat) (Pact (+90)) [2]; Charisma 1 [5]; Combat Reflexes [15]; Damage Resistance 5 (Pact (+90)) [5]; Danger Sense [15]; Destiny (Great) [15]; Extra Attack 1 [25]; Fit [5]; Flight (Winged; Pact (+90); Can extend and retract wings) [8]; Hard to Kill 1 [2]; Magery 1 [10]; Magery 0 [5]; Magic Resistance 5 (Improved; Pact (+90)) [16]; Recovery [10]; Regeneration (Very Fast: 1HP/Sec) (Pact (+90)) [20]; Regrowth (Pact (+90)) [8]; Resistant (Very Common) (+3; Pact (+90)) [2]; Temperature Tolerance 2 [2]; Unaging (Pact (+90)) [3]; Unfazeable [15]; Unkillable 1 (Pact (+90); Achilles' Heel (Occasional)) [10]; Wealth (Wealthy) [20].
Perks: No Hangover; Penetrating Voice [2].

Disadvantages
Berserk (pact) (12 or less; Battle Rage) [-15]; Bloodlust (pact) (9 or less) [-15]; Bully (12 or less) [-10]; Callous [-5]; Dependency (pact) (Sentient Blood) (Very Common) (Illegal; Daily) [-30]; Enemy (kingdom of the light) (medium-sized group, some formidable or super-human) (9 or less; Hunter) [-30]; Frightens Animals [-10]; Guilt Complex [-5]; Intolerance (Intolerance of one group) [-5]; Nightmares (12 or less) [-5]; Overconfidence (9 or less) [-7]; Sense of Duty (Individual) [-2]; Social Stigma (Minority Group) [-10]; Vulnerability (pact) (Occasional) (x3) [-30]; Weirdness Magnet [-15]; Xenophilia (12 or less) [-10].
Quirks: Code of Honor; Obsession; Staid; Uncongenial [-4].

Skills
Armoury/TL3 (Body Armor)-10 (IQ-1) [1]; Broadsword-9 (DX-1) [1]; Crossbow-10 (DX+0) [1]; Detect Lies-14 (Per+1) [8]; Flail-18 (DX+8) [36]; Hidden Lore (Demon Lore)-11 (IQ+0) [2]; Intimidation-14 (Will+3) [12]; Riding (Equines)-9 (DX-1) [1]; Survival (Underground)-14 (Per+1) [4]; Tactics-10 (IQ-1) [2]; Thrown Weapon (Axe/Mace)-14 (DX+4) [12]; Tracking-14 (Per+1) [4].
Techniques: Dual-Weapon Attack (Flail)-17 [4].

Spells
Haste-12 [4].

Note that it was not my intention to be explotive at all, only to build a concept. I noticed after the fact how rediculous it was. Also, I could easily have taken something like Accelerated Time Rate for 10 pts/level, 3 levels of which would utterly break the character.

Suggestion for balancing factor: Have the pact discount only be wroth HALF the associated disadvantages; so to do the same trick you would need 180 pts of disadvantages associated with it, which is a heck of a lot.

The next thing I did was figure out a combat style for him. Going through the book for my first character, I found flails to be very cool so I thought using a flail would be great with his high ST. I also thought 2 flails would be even better.

So, with Ambidexterity, Dual-Weapon Attack, Extra Attack and Rapid Strike, combined with All-Out Attack (Double), he can literally make 8 attacks in 1 round; some at a -1 to -6 penalty, but still, 8 attacks. All of which are difficult to block. Now, even if he didn't have the high, unrealistic strength that makes this possible with flails, he could do the same thing with broadswords and still get 8 attacks, just not have the cool flail benefits.

Suggestion for balancing factor: Don't allow things that grant you multiple attacks to combine, or something. Don't really know what to do here without screwing over or maginalizing a combat style or option.

valadil
2009-08-11, 07:45 PM
Suggestion for balancing: Don't play 300 point characters with 200 points of disadvantages. Seriously. When my group does high powered games they're in the 200 point range with a max of 50 points of disadvantages. This character has twice as many points to spend. Pact or no, I'm not surprised you made something ridiculous.

Decoy Lockbox
2009-08-11, 08:39 PM
I thought there was some rule that basically advised disadvantages to be along the lines of 30% of a character's points. I'm playing in a 70pt game right now, with up to 30 pts of disadvantages.

Swiftblu
2009-08-11, 08:57 PM
You do have some rather suspect disadvantages (Guilt Complex...?), and making a pact limitation with such a ludicrous number of disadvantages attached is silly. Will your god really take your powers away if you don't freak out every time you get wounded?

jmbrown
2009-08-11, 09:49 PM
You've misunderstood the pact limitation.

1: When you apply a limitation to a disadvantage, you reduce its value as a disadvantage (pg110). All of your pact disadvantages are worth 10% less (Bloodlust, for example, is -9 points not -10).

2: Pacts don't give you points, they reduce the cost of the trait. I don't know where you're getting this +90 from.

3: Pacts can never reduce net modifiers below 80%.

4: A pact must come with a self imposed mental disadvantage as listed on page 121. Your character has none of these.

5: Limitations can only be applied to traits; traits being advantages and disadvantages. You can't reduce the cost of anything else.

Basically your character doesn't work at all.

edit: To elaborate on how pact limitation works, you choose the disadvantage associated with it. This has to be a self-imposed mental disadvantage like code of honor or honesty. You get a discount equal to the points of the disadvantage.

For example, your character has damage reduction 5 which is 25 points. Lets say you take the pact limitation, giving yourself the disadvantages code of honor pirates (-5 points) and fanaticism (-15 points). Your pact limitation gives you a 20% discount when applied to a trait. Damage Reduction 5 would cost you 20 points instead of 25 but if you ever break your code of honor and question the object you're fanatical to, you lose your power until the GM says so.

Getting an 80% reduction with pact is a possibility but you're looking at a character who's probably impossible to play in a group let alone an actual game.

Captain Six
2009-08-11, 10:21 PM
GURPS is a point buy system. By its very nature it is incredibly easy to break. D&D is the kind of game where you try to make powerful builds because the system has pretty hard limits on what you can do how early, GURPS does not have that. You have to look at how you build characters completely different, optimization will break the game. Don't go make a 'master of none' but if you focus as narrowly as your average D&D build things will not go well.


This goes double for the GM, THEY need to set limits. Max 60% off of any ability due to limitations is what I go with; I had my spree of getting Altered Time Rate down to 5 points a level when I first found the system, as well as any other high point ability I thought was cool. Also only half your max points is the limit on disadvantages in general, which I see is rather high for most people. EVERYTHING must make sense, not just taken for how cool it is. I will make disadvantages come back to bite you in the ass, there is no such thing as a cruel GM when you are the one who handed out the invitation. I can't imagine someone who manages to continue existing with 200 points of disadvantages.

Kizara
2009-08-12, 01:03 AM
You've misunderstood the pact limitation.

1: When you apply a limitation to a disadvantage, you reduce its value as a disadvantage (pg110). All of your pact disadvantages are worth 10% less (Bloodlust, for example, is -9 points not -10).

2: Pacts don't give you points, they reduce the cost of the trait. I don't know where you're getting this +90 from.

3: Pacts can never reduce net modifiers below 80%.

4: A pact must come with a self imposed mental disadvantage as listed on page 121. Your character has none of these.

5: Limitations can only be applied to traits; traits being advantages and disadvantages. You can't reduce the cost of anything else.

Basically your character doesn't work at all.

edit: To elaborate on how pact limitation works, you choose the disadvantage associated with it. This has to be a self-imposed mental disadvantage like code of honor or honesty. You get a discount equal to the points of the disadvantage.

For example, your character has damage reduction 5 which is 25 points. Lets say you take the pact limitation, giving yourself the disadvantages code of honor pirates (-5 points) and fanaticism (-15 points). Your pact limitation gives you a 20% discount when applied to a trait. Damage Reduction 5 would cost you 20 points instead of 25 but if you ever break your code of honor and question the object you're fanatical to, you lose your power until the GM says so.

Getting an 80% reduction with pact is a possibility but you're looking at a character who's probably impossible to play in a group let alone an actual game.

On pg113 (where Pact is) it says:

This code must take the form of one or more of the traits listed under Self-Imposed Mental Disadvantages. These disadvantages give you the usual number of points. The limitation value is equivilent to the point cost of the required disadvantages.

Now, as my character concept was a dark pact as opposed to a self-regulated allegience, I went for Beserk, Bloodlust and a dependancy on blood. I put pack by them so I could easily keep track of what it was effecting it for book-keeping reasons.

1) Yes, I was applying the limitator to the advantages associated with the pact. The disadvantages have (pact) by them because they are the negative aspect associated with it.

2) That is how the character assisant shows it. Its a -90% reduction because the pact is associated with 90 points of disadvantages.

3) I see no such limit in its entry. Is this stated elsewhere?

4) Ok. I was going for a different angle, in that the disadvantages were imposed by an outside force instead of self-regulated. This better enabled me to protray the anti-hero aspect I was going for. Also, I don't see the difference between Vow (must drink blood) and Depenancy (sentient blood). I also didn't associate the vulnerability with the pact, and I easily could have, as its related (he's vulnerable to holy or blessed weapons/items/sites).

5) Well you can certinally apply them to disadvantages from what I've seen, if they are appropriate (and make them wroth less). I have not done so here anyways.



For those of you saying "Your character is built with too many points!", I don't see the validity of your complaint. For one thing, the point is about those two aspects of the system that seem unbalanced, not the fine points of the character (it doesnt matter why he has guilt complex, its not the point of the thread).

For another, its not inherently sacrilige to make a character with 300 pts. The system is meant to handle things like that, and the character is designed with a more high-powered, high-fantasty "D&D-like" setting in mind. Also, the default rule for disadvantages is 50% of points, the book spells it out. Yes, this character exceeds this, but I could easily trim 50 pts of disadv and advant and still have the same problems presented in this thread.



GURPS is a point buy system. By its very nature it is incredibly easy to break. D&D is the kind of game where you try to make powerful builds because the system has pretty hard limits on what you can do how early, GURPS does not have that. You have to look at how you build characters completely different, optimization will break the game. Don't go make a 'master of none' but if you focus as narrowly as your average D&D build things will not go well.


This goes double for the GM, THEY need to set limits. Max 60% off of any ability due to limitations is what I go with; I had my spree of getting Altered Time Rate down to 5 points a level when I first found the system, as well as any other high point ability I thought was cool. Also only half your max points is the limit on disadvantages in general, which I see is rather high for most people. EVERYTHING must make sense, not just taken for how cool it is. I will make disadvantages come back to bite you in the ass, there is no such thing as a cruel GM when you are the one who handed out the invitation. I can't imagine someone who manages to continue existing with 200 points of disadvantages.

I understand your meaning, but I really was not trying to optimize. I am sure I could make a much more powerful and abusive character with 250 pts/125 disadv if I actually set out to do that.

I made a concept, defined it within the rules, grabbed some stuff that seemed cool and applicable, then found what options were available for his fighting style (dual-wielding flails). I have only been using this system lightly for a few weeks, I'm hardly mastering and twisting the rules for my munchkin glee.

I don't see how pact can be balanced without severely limiting disadvantages (which I think would be really lame, as they are great RPing fodder), playing campaigns with such low point totals you have almost no options anyways (both of which simply avoid, not correct, the problem) unless its changed to give a 2:1 ratio or something, as 1:1 discount on ANYTHING you can justify is just crazy. I could've used it for my high ST, for most of my advantages, for my skills even. Just crazy.

The max 60% off max seems a pretty good rule. That makes things a bit more sane. However, it doesn't address the 8 attacks thing (I could make a 100 pt character that had 7 without abuse, and we play at LEAST at that point total).

Fhaolan
2009-08-12, 01:39 AM
Quick question, which edition of GURPS?

If it's 3rd edition, I think you're limited to 100 points of disadvantages, though I'm not near my books right now to check.

If it's 4th edition, I think the recommended limit is that the character can gain only 50% more points from disadvantages. i.e. If you've got a 200 point character before disadvantages, you should only get 100 points of disadvantages, but if you've got a 300 point character before disadvantages, you should only get 150 points of disadvantages.

Not that this helps the discussion any, but I also find that how much disadvantages limit your actions in play depends a *lot* on the GM. You might find that with many GM's your character will be nigh-unplayable because the even with the reduced forms of those disadvantages, the sheer number of them will cripple the character. But again, depends on the GM.

jmbrown
2009-08-12, 01:42 AM
Now, as my character concept was a dark pact as opposed to a self-regulated allegience, I went for Beserk, Bloodlust and a dependancy on blood. I put pack by them so I could easily keep track of what it was effecting it for book-keeping reasons.

These aren't self-imposed mental disadvantages.


2) That is how the character assisant shows it. Its a -90% reduction because the pact is associated with 90 points of disadvantages.

The character assistant is wrong then. You can't reduce a trait by lower than 80% with any combination of limitations.



3) I see no such limit in its entry. Is this stated elsewhere?
Pg 110.


4) Ok. I was going for a different angle, in that the disadvantages were imposed by an outside force instead of self-regulated. This better enabled me to protray the anti-hero aspect I was going for. Also, I don't see the difference between Vow (must drink blood) and Depenancy (sentient blood). I also didn't associate the vulnerability with the pact, and I easily could have, as its related (he's vulnerable to holy or blessed weapons/items/sites).

The point is the pact limitation has a restriction and that restriction being you have to take a self-imposed mental disadvantage.


I made a concept, defined it within the rules, grabbed some stuff that seemed cool and applicable, then found what options were available for his fighting style (dual-wielding flails). I have only been using this system lightly for a few weeks, I'm hardly mastering and twisting the rules for my munchkin glee.

No, you're not following the rules for the reasons I stated above. There's nothing wrong with the pact limitation because self-imposed mental disadvantages are defining aspects of your character. Getting anywhere close to the max 80% off is nearly impossible while still playing a character that won't be screwed over by the GM.

It's cool if your GM modifies the rules to create a darker character but BY THE BOOK the pact limitation isn't over powered.

Kizara
2009-08-12, 01:53 AM
These aren't self-imposed mental disadvantages.



The character assistant is wrong then. You can't reduce a trait by lower than 80% with any combination of limitations.



Pg 110.



The point is the pact limitation has a restriction and that restriction being you have to take a self-imposed mental disadvantage.



No, you're not following the rules for the reasons I stated above. There's nothing wrong with the pact limitation because self-imposed mental disadvantages are defining aspects of your character. Getting anywhere close to the max 80% off is nearly impossible while still playing a character that won't be screwed over by the GM.

It's cool if your GM modifies the rules to create a darker character but BY THE BOOK the pact limitation isn't over powered.


80% vs 90%. Ok, I didn't see that. -80% is still a lot.

Fine, change the disadvantages to the silly but in-the-rules:

Vow (Must drink blood daily), functions mechancially exactly the same as a blood dependancy. Obviously still wroth 30 pts.

Vow (Must go Beserk in any combat), functions exactly like the Battle Beserk disadvantage.

Vow (must always slaughter any and all enemies), functions like bloodlust.

I suppose these vows wouldn't allow the self-control roll, but otherwise its not really a whole lot different aside from screwing-over my roleplaying concept.

And before you say these are not in line with the representative Vows on 160, I quote "Note if you could represent your Vow with another disadvantage...".

Now, this is me not using any effort or finding more appropriate or less contrived 'appropriate' disadvantages, and to show that the point that the limitation comes from within (consious choice) instead of without (imposed changes) doesn't make it somehow less limiting, in fact it could easily be argued that it makes it MORE limiting as you cannot choose to simply disobey at the cost of your powers, as its imposed upon you.

EDIT: I'm playing GURPS 4ed, and I already addressed the disadvantage number earlier. The balance issues are still present with better optimization and 50 less pts of disadvantages.

jmbrown
2009-08-12, 02:20 AM
And before you say these are not in line with the representative Vows on 160, I quote "Note if you could represent your Vow with another disadvantage...".

Finish reading the sentence.

"...you only get points for one of the two disadvantages (your choice)."

That last sentence keeps people from taking a vow and a disadvantage associated with the vow. In your case if you took vow (must drink blood daily) and dependency blood, you'd get the -30 points for dependency but not for the vow. You still have to take the self-imposed disadvantage in order to get the pact limitation and the discount is equal to said disadvantage only.

By the rules, vow caps at -15 points. Period. You're now down 1/3 of your max starting disadvantage limit (150 for a 300 point character), and you now have a 45% discount for pact which is half of what you had previously. It's a lot but look at your limitations; you now have to kill mercilessly, drink blood, and completely lose your mind in combat or else your powers go bye-bye.


Now, this is me not using any effort or finding more appropriate or less contrived 'appropriate' disadvantages, and to show that the point that the limitation comes from within (consious choice) instead of without (imposed changes) doesn't make it somehow less limiting, in fact it could easily be argued that it makes it MORE limiting as you cannot choose to simply disobey at the cost of your powers, as its imposed upon you.

You see that light above your head? That's you coming to the slow realization the point behind disadvantages.


It might seem strange that virtues such as Truthfulness and Sense of Duty are listed as "disadvantages." In the real world, we regard such traits as advantages! Their disadvantage value in GURPS comes from the fact that these virtues LIMIT YOUR FREEDOM OF ACTION.

Self-imposed mental disadvantages are self-imposed because the player makes a conscious choice to adhere to them. The difference between a mental disadvantage and a self-imposed mental disadvantage is that the player can pick up said disadvantage whenever he wants. He doesn't get points from it after character creation, but he still gets it.

A character can't suddenly decide they want to have blood lust after creation. They can certainly decide to kill all enemies, but they don't have to. A character with the disadvantage "blood lust" has to or at least try to resist it.

You now understand the point behind disadvantages. They confine you and remove your freedom as a player but in return you get more points to spend.


I suppose these vows wouldn't allow the self-control roll, but otherwise its not really a whole lot different aside from screwing-over my roleplaying concept.

On the contrary, it makes your character more interesting. Before, he's a berserking, blood drinking, psychopathic weirdo. Now that he made the conscious decision to acquire powers based on vows, it means he sold his soul to a higher power. He's much much much eviler as a result.

In your original write up he's just a high powered thug with some screws loose. By vowing to some dark lord to gobble blood and slaughter people far and wide, you've opened up avenues for true roleplay in the form of a background. Who do you worship? What was the price of your soul?

Shoot, go ahead and take the contact advantage. Make it a demon or a sorcerer or something.

This is GURPS in its purest form. Anyone can min/max a character. Even if you played by the rules I could make something absolutely disgusting with 200 points. However, no GM worth his weight in dice will look over the sheet you presented in post 1 and say "Yep, looks good!" GURPS is a game that requires GM participation more so than most RPGs. The mechanical rules are pretty solid IMO but its the GMs job to look over your sheet and slap you in the face for anything dumb.

warmachine
2009-08-12, 04:59 AM
What he said.

Also, your character will rapidly become a social liability wherever he goes and the freaked out horses and barking dogs won't help. Combined with your callous bullying of the other PC's, a PC may decide to ally with the hunters from the Kingdom of Light to kill you.

Be careful with taking lots of Disadvantages, they hurt you a lot.

Riffington
2009-08-12, 05:46 AM
There are no freebies in GURPS. If you take a disadvantage, it will be a disadvantage that's worth the points.

GeneralTacticus
2009-08-12, 08:21 AM
Also, a note regarding the multiple attacks thing:

First of all, as far as I can tell your combination of advantages gives you 5 attacks per turn, not 8. You get one to begin with, Dual-Weapon Strike lets you attack with your off-hand for an extra one, Extra Attack gives you a third, Rapid Strike gives you a fourth at -3 (and a penalty of -3 to another attack), and All-Out Attack (Double) gives you a fifth.

This is still very nasty, of course, but not as much as you made out - and furthermore, in order to do this you've given up your Active Defences, which means that any opponent of your level who survives is free to splatter you all over the landscape. Even with your crazy defensive advantages (the costing of which has already been addressed), a couple of high-damage attacks to the brain pain will seriously inconvenience you.

You can, of course, get more attacks than this by taking the Extra Attack advantage; with the Multistrike enhancement and the Single Weapon limitation, this comes to 25 points per level. However, for the same price your opponent can e.g. buy six levels in a combat skill, thus raising his Parry rating by 3; if he also has Weapon Master or Trained by a Master, the penalty he takes for consecutive parries is only -2, so he actually comes out ahead. Alternatively he could raise his Basic Speed or get Enhanced Defence to raise his Dodge rating, which suffers no penalty for multiple uses. In this case, past a certain point your chances of hitting with your amazing flurry of attacks are negligible; what you'll be wanting instead is a high enough skill to penetrate it with Deceptive Attacks instead, which requires you to spend those points on your weapon skill instead.

Also given your Vows to kill all enemies and go berserk all the time, you're also ridiculously easy to manipulate. If an enemy runs away while firing a ranged weapon, you have no choice but to follow, and if they're faster than you, you're pretty much screwed. Similarly, you're obliged to follow them into ambush, traps, dangerous terrain, etc, upon pain of having your super-powers yanked. Presuming that your enemies know anything about you at all, they will exploit this if they have any brains, and it's very exploitable.

Kizara
2009-08-12, 02:25 PM
Also, a note regarding the multiple attacks thing:

First of all, as far as I can tell your combination of advantages gives you 5 attacks per turn, not 8. You get one to begin with, Dual-Weapon Strike lets you attack with your off-hand for an extra one, Extra Attack gives you a third, Rapid Strike gives you a fourth at -3 (and a penalty of -3 to another attack), and All-Out Attack (Double) gives you a fifth.

This is still very nasty, of course, but not as much as you made out - and furthermore, in order to do this you've given up your Active Defences, which means that any opponent of your level who survives is free to splatter you all over the landscape. Even with your crazy defensive advantages (the costing of which has already been addressed), a couple of high-damage attacks to the brain pain will seriously inconvenience you.

You can, of course, get more attacks than this by taking the Extra Attack advantage; with the Multistrike enhancement and the Single Weapon limitation, this comes to 25 points per level. However, for the same price your opponent can e.g. buy six levels in a combat skill, thus raising his Parry rating by 3; if he also has Weapon Master or Trained by a Master, the penalty he takes for consecutive parries is only -2, so he actually comes out ahead. Alternatively he could raise his Basic Speed or get Enhanced Defence to raise his Dodge rating, which suffers no penalty for multiple uses. In this case, past a certain point your chances of hitting with your amazing flurry of attacks are negligible; what you'll be wanting instead is a high enough skill to penetrate it with Deceptive Attacks instead, which requires you to spend those points on your weapon skill instead.

Also given your Vows to kill all enemies and go berserk all the time, you're also ridiculously easy to manipulate. If an enemy runs away while firing a ranged weapon, you have no choice but to follow, and if they're faster than you, you're pretty much screwed. Similarly, you're obliged to follow them into ambush, traps, dangerous terrain, etc, upon pain of having your super-powers yanked. Presuming that your enemies know anything about you at all, they will exploit this if they have any brains, and it's very exploitable.

I don't know how I arrived at 8... your math adds up, I'm not sure what I did exactly.

As for giving up defenses, you can always not do all-out double and have 4 attacks with defenses. That's still a lot less then the 7 I thought it had. Really don't know how I arrived at that...

As for the easily-exploitable aspect, that was to give my GM an 'out', as he often can't deal with higher-power characters (all our DnD campaigns had a way of self-destructing after level 6 or so cause he wouldn't put the effort into simply using higher-CR challenges... even my bloody social bard that had 30 hp at lvl 6....). Oh, and its partly a RPing thing, as he spent his entire adult life underground up until now and thus is not used to having to engage people at any real range.


Anyways, with that and the feedback on Pact I have a good idea where to go from here. If I use the pact the way I actually want to for my RPing I'll simply value it at half, as I can see that opening it to non-self-imposed disadvantages it does give you alot more options for associating points with it.

As for jmbrown's points on the RPing, yes that is eviler but is not what I had in mind here. The concept was someone who was seeking a different path after decades of being consumed by evil. While not actively seeking to atone or be 'good', he nevertheless seeks something aside from mindless slaughter. In the meantime, he still has all the baggage of his former life and all the presecution that comes with it. Also, he still enjoys slaughtering his enemies all too much.

jmbrown
2009-08-12, 05:33 PM
As for jmbrown's points on the RPing, yes that is eviler but is not what I had in mind here. The concept was someone who was seeking a different path after decades of being consumed by evil. While not actively seeking to atone or be 'good', he nevertheless seeks something aside from mindless slaughter. In the meantime, he still has all the baggage of his former life and all the presecution that comes with it. Also, he still enjoys slaughtering his enemies all too much.

If he's trying to atone, the pact disadvantage will only hinder him. Pact is a willing commitment, not an inherent ability. Pact represents that a higher power is granting him abilities at the cost of obedience. If he wants to struggle to go on the right path, pact will only make it near impossible.

You can take the physical dependency, blood lust, and berserk but you don't get the pact limitation. Anything with an asterisk next to it means you can prevent it from happening and that makes 100x more sense for a "struggling" character than a character who desperately wants to be good-- wait a sec while I slaughter these guys with the powers given to me by a pact I made with a dark god...

Now where was I? Oh, yes, I so desperately want to be good!