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Suzuro
2009-08-11, 09:21 PM
Repeater crossbows. They're a really cool concept, but I've been thinking about, so I thought I'd bring it into the piercing light of the playground.

For those of you who don't know repeating crossbows (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Repeating_Heavy_Crossbow) have a magazine of bolts and they let you reload as a free action if you're using both hands.

Now, I can see that the heavy repeating crossbow has some use, but my question is this: Does the light repeating crossbow have any use?

It require a feat to use properly (exotic weapon) and with the rapid reload feat, a normal light crossbow would reload just as fast, cost less, and not have to worry about changing mags.

So...am I missing something, or is it really that bad? I really like the idea, but I just don't think it's worth it.


-Suzuro

Eldariel
2009-08-11, 09:29 PM
It's really bad. Like really, really bad. I touched upon the matter here (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=642.0). The only salvaging feature of the Light Repeating Crossbow is that you get proficiency in it for free when you take EWP: Repeating Crossbow for the Heavy version.

Deth Muncher
2009-08-11, 11:40 PM
Light Repeating Crossbow:

http://downlode.org/Creative/Writing/Notebook/Illustrations/itsatrap.jpg

Harperfan7
2009-08-12, 07:24 AM
Do light shields have a purpose? Chainmail? Splint Mail?

In my homebrew, gnomes have automatic prof in light repeaters, and heavy ones if they are proficient with martial weapons.

Kaiyanwang
2009-08-12, 07:30 AM
Is possible TWF with them?

If is possible, you use them in a TWF build (so with SA or something augmenting your damage) when is time to stay at range.

And to look like a matrix character (just imagined a whisper gnome with sunglasses).

If does not work.. dunno.


Do light shields have a purpose? Chainmail? Splint Mail?

You can TWF with light shields without Oversized TWF.

About the armors.. well I guess you are right :smalltongue:

paddyfool
2009-08-12, 07:37 AM
Do light shields have a purpose? Chainmail? Splint Mail?


At level 1, Chainmail offers a rather more affordable +5 to AC than a Breastplate. I've clad a cleric in it before now.

After that, not so much.

Harperfan7
2009-08-12, 07:41 AM
Actually, Kaiyanwang, I checked. They have to be reloaded with two hands. (Who fights with two small shields?)

Kaiyanwang
2009-08-12, 07:45 AM
Well, 5 bolt each, I think that barring Raging Mongoose, you are ok with a turn of fire. Maybe is in the "spirit" of crossbow be a resource for a round or two, and "professional" ranged use bow.

I meant one handed / light weapon + Small shield with TFW.

Amiria
2009-08-12, 08:00 AM
Do light shields have a purpose?

Yes, you can still do stuff with your shield hand, like holding an item, getting material components from your spell component pouch and making the somatic components of spells ... unlike with a heavy shield. Light shields have more style than bucklers for clerics. And druids can't use bucklers at all since they are made of metal.

FMArthur
2009-08-12, 08:36 AM
Well, 5 bolt each, I think that barring Raging Mongoose, you are ok with a turn of fire. Maybe is in the "spirit" of crossbow be a resource for a round or two, and "professional" ranged use bow.

I meant one handed / light weapon + Small shield with TFW.

You do need an extra hand to just turn the crank to load the next crossbow bolt from the magazine. That's what Harperfan7 was saying when he said 'reloaded'. The full-round-action change of magazine is just an extra slap in the face on top of that. You also take rather large penalties for trying to wield light and heavy crossbows or their repeating counterparts in one hand. It's a -2 penalty for holding a light crossbow in one hand, and -4 for heavy, in addition to your TWF penalty. Hand crossbows are the only ones that don't recieve a penalty (though their range increment of 30ft might make them equivalent in some cases anyway).

The Dark Fiddler
2009-08-12, 08:39 AM
You do need an extra hand to just turn the crank to load the next crossbow bolt from the magazine. That's what Harperfan7 was saying when he said 'reloaded'. The full-round-action change of magazine is just an extra slap in the face on top of that.

I never got why we couldn't just pull the level with our teeth.

Kaiyanwang
2009-08-12, 08:43 AM
You do need an extra hand to just turn the crank to load the next crossbow bolt from the magazine.

Now I see it. All my 3 eyes are crying.

*violins*

FMArthur
2009-08-12, 08:44 AM
I never got why we couldn't just pull the level with our teeth.

Well, you could eat +1 LA and 2 racial hit dice to be a nonpsionic thri-kreen. But I'd still rather get four handcrossbows and a Spare Hand for reloading instead.

Eldariel
2009-08-12, 08:57 AM
I'd rather get 4 Great Crossbows (if I'm investing a friggin' EWP, might as well make it useful) and buy Quick-Loading Enhancement to them. That, or do some trickery with Gloves of Storing.

Harperfan7
2009-08-12, 09:01 AM
I know it's off topic, but when is a light shield ever as good or better than a buckler/darkwood buckler?

Eldariel
2009-08-12, 09:03 AM
I know it's off topic, but when is a light shield ever as good or better than a buckler/darkwood buckler?

You can bash with it.

EleventhHour
2009-08-12, 09:06 AM
I know it's off topic, but when is a light shield ever as good or better than a buckler/darkwood buckler?


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Yes, you can still do stuff with your shield hand, like holding an item, getting material components from your spell component pouch and making the somatic components of spells ... unlike with a heavy shield. Light shields have more style than bucklers for clerics. And druids can't use bucklers at all since they are made of metal.

:smallbiggrin:

::
Well, I guess the Darkwood Buckler would be better overall, but more expensive, so not an option for some lower level characters.

FMArthur
2009-08-12, 09:06 AM
I'd rather get 4 Great Crossbows (if I'm investing a friggin' EWP, might as well make it useful) and buy Quick-Loading Enhancement to them. That, or do some trickery with Gloves of Storing.

4 Great crossbows. So with multi-weapon fighting, -6 penalty to each attack. Quick-Loading doesn't give you an extra hand to load and is expensive, or if you go the Glove route you need a Glove of Storing for each hand unless your character can juggle while reloading (which is a lot of money). A Spare Hand is only 12000gp and solves the reloading problem completely and without any issues. Free action to transfer items to and from your Spare Hand, which is all you need to make crossbow reloading work.

EDIT: Well, I guess you could reload with just two Gloves of Storing (20000gp) and a hilarious-looking weapon shuffle between four hands. I'm talking about free action-reloading crossbows, though - I can't see any point in wielding more than two great crossbows with a four-armed creature or more than one with a normal race.

Curmudgeon
2009-08-12, 09:51 AM
I know it's off topic, but when is a light shield ever as good or better than a buckler/darkwood buckler?
You can't have a buckler of normal wood or darkwood. Bucklers are always metal, so (almost) always out of consideration for Druids.

Now, you can use Ironwood to make a buckler, but you're going to have to craft a new one every CL days, using Wood Shape after you create the material with Ironwood.

A light shield doesn't expire in a few days.

I'd rather get 4 Great Crossbows (if I'm investing a friggin' EWP, might as well make it useful) and buy Quick-Loading Enhancement to them.
To start with, all the weapon feats and magical enhancements (like quick loading) are written in the same stupid fashion, and don't allow for great crossbows, so you'll have to get your DM to extend them to work with great crossbows in the same fashion that they work with heavy crossbows (which makes sense, since they normally have the same reloading characteristics). Then quick loading still only reduces the loading time to a move action, and you still need a free hand to do that, right?

Since quick loading automatically loads the bolt for a +1 enhancement cost, you need something to automatically pull the string back. Self-loading (Arms and Equipment Guide) does that, for another 10,000 gp to the weapon cost. So a quick loading, self-loading great crossbow is a semi-automatic weapon. And pretty darn expensive. And still an exotic weapon. But at least possible.

paddyfool
2009-08-12, 10:06 AM
You can't have a buckler of normal wood or darkwood. Bucklers are always metal, so (almost) always out of consideration for Druids.


From the SRD: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicArmor.htm)



Darkwood Buckler
This nonmagical light wooden shield is made out of darkwood. It has no enhancement bonus, but its construction material makes it lighter than a normal wooden shield. It weighs 2˝ pounds and has no armor check penalty.

No aura (nonmagical); Price 205 gp.

Cieyrin
2009-08-12, 01:24 PM
People usually forget that you can't spell cast w/o a free hand and if you got a melee weapon and a heavy shield, Mr. Healy isn't gonna be curing your ass till he puts that mace away.

So for clerics and druids, it's either a light shield, a buckler (darkwood only for druids) or going for the exotic gauntlet shield from Races of Stone, which let's you have your heavy shield and eat it to (or is it cake? well, regardless...). You have to spend the feat slot on it OR, using the alternate rule in Races of Stone, give Fighters the choice of Exotic shield they're proficient with (since really, Tower Shields are pretty much the first incarnation of Exotic Shields and wouldn't you rather have proficiency in a shield you want to use, rather than that over-sized, clumsy thing? I'd rather go with an Extreme shield over a tower shield, any day! :smallcool:)

RTGoodman
2009-08-12, 01:36 PM
People usually forget that you can't spell cast w/o a free hand and if you got a melee weapon and a heavy shield, Mr. Healy isn't gonna be curing your ass till he puts that mace away.

Eh, the Somatic Weaponry feat (CArc?) gets around that nicely, and you don't actually have to HOLD your holy symbol for Divine Focus components. Then the only problem would be Material components, and I don't know how many in-combat Cleric spells there that require one.

Another_Poet
2009-08-12, 02:08 PM
Repeater crossbows. They're a really cool concept, but I've been thinking about, so I thought I'd bring it into the piercing light of the playground.

For those of you who don't know repeating crossbows (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Repeating_Heavy_Crossbow) have a magazine of bolts and they let you reload as a free action if you're using both hands.

Now, I can see that the heavy repeating crossbow has some use, but my question is this: Does the light repeating crossbow have any use?

It require a feat to use properly (exotic weapon) and with the rapid reload feat, a normal light crossbow would reload just as fast, cost less, and not have to worry about changing mags.

So...am I missing something, or is it really that bad? I really like the idea, but I just don't think it's worth it.

-Suzuro

The light repeating crossbow is not great, but it has value to a single type of character: a ranged TWF build.

It is light, so you can use it in your offhand as a light weapon. The light repeating xbow can be (I believe) relaoded as a free action even with something in the other hand (I suppose you **** the lever with your hip or something??) and if not just take Rapid Reload to fix it. So if you are a sniper Rogue you can deal 1d6+sneak twice per iterative attack at the normal TWF penalties plus another -2 for firing one-handed.

Not great, but a viable alternative to wand slinging or 2-handed longbowing.

ap

Cieyrin
2009-08-12, 02:25 PM
The light repeating crossbow is not great, but it has value to a single type of character: a ranged TWF build.

It is light, so you can use it in your offhand as a light weapon. The light repeating xbow can be (I believe) relaoded as a free action even with something in the other hand (I suppose you **** the lever with your hip or something??) and if not just take Rapid Reload to fix it. So if you are a sniper Rogue you can deal 1d6+sneak twice per iterative attack at the normal TWF penalties plus another -2 for firing one-handed.

Not great, but a viable alternative to wand slinging or 2-handed longbowing.

ap

Nope, light repeating crossbow still needs a 2nd hand to operate the reload mechanism. Also, you can't technically apply Rapid Reload to repeating crossbows, since they're not given as an option of selection. This isn't like how great crossbow isn't mentioned, since repeating crossbows are Core, they're just screwed on that front.:smallannoyed:

ZeroNumerous
2009-08-12, 02:28 PM
People usually forget that you can't spell cast w/o a free hand and if you got a melee weapon and a heavy shield, Mr. Healy isn't gonna be curing your ass till he puts that mace away.

Buy a leather strap. Free action drop your mace. Your mace doesn't fall to the ground.

Admiral Squish
2009-08-12, 02:44 PM
Wait, wait, wait. Why can't one hand flick the lever for each other hand? Three crossbows. If that would work, even an LA 0 artificer could pull off dual-wielding with a... whatever that thing is. It's like a belt with a hand on it. From Magic of Eberron.

ZeroNumerous
2009-08-12, 02:45 PM
Wait, wait, wait. Why can't one hand flick the lever for each other hand? Three crossbows. If that would work, even an LA 0 artificer could pull off dual-wielding with a... whatever that thing is. It's like a belt with a hand on it. From Magic of Eberron.

The Handy Hand(I forget it's name too) could work. Or that graft that adds an arm onto your back. Or juggling. Juggling would be awesome.

Another_Poet
2009-08-12, 02:53 PM
Also, you can't technically apply Rapid Reload to repeating crossbows, since they're not given as an option of selection. This isn't like how great crossbow isn't mentioned, since repeating crossbows are Core, they're just screwed on that front.:smallannoyed:

Well that sucks.

FMArthur
2009-08-12, 09:50 PM
Wait, wait, wait. Why can't one hand flick the lever for each other hand? Three crossbows. If that would work, even an LA 0 artificer could pull off dual-wielding with a... whatever that thing is. It's like a belt with a hand on it. From Magic of Eberron.


The Handy Hand(I forget it's name too) could work. Or that graft that adds an arm onto your back. Or juggling. Juggling would be awesome.

Spare Hand from MIC p137. You can't have it reload weapons in your other hands but transferring items to and from it is a free action. I don't think the hand can do anything other than hold things (can't even use them) and aid climbing. The only crossbow worth using for Two-Weapon Fighting with is a hand crossbow, though. If you had a pocket full of Fine-sized casters readying actions to cast True Strike on you before every single shot, then maybe some of the bigger crossbows could succeed at TWFing, but still not repeating crossbows.

Cieyrin
2009-08-12, 10:09 PM
Buy a leather strap. Free action drop your mace. Your mace doesn't fall to the ground.

The only issue I have is that you you don't threaten this way when you cast and you're always redrawing your mace as a move action. Maybe it doesn't really matter, as clerics meleeing probably isn't that big a deal in the face of spell casting, but I'd rather just have a light shield and not have to worry about it, as losing 1 point of AC isn't gonna change that much.

For juggling, I like Eldariel's solution of wearing 2 gloves of storing and popping them in and out of the extradimensional space to free the hand to reload.

ericgrau
2009-08-12, 10:36 PM
On the repeating light crossbow you give up 1 damage to save 6 lbs. Well worth it for a rogue or other low str character, and they're the most likely candidates for a crossbow (instead of a composite longbow) anyway. You can also TWF a repeating light crossbow and a light crossbow, then drop the light crossbow after the first shot to allow repeating crossbow reloads. That'd give 1 extra attack.

FMArthur
2009-08-12, 10:42 PM
For juggling, I like Eldariel's solution of wearing 2 gloves of storing and popping them in and out of the extradimensional space to free the hand to reload.

Get. A. Spare. Hand.

Jman1906
2009-08-13, 12:44 AM
Light repeating crossbows are better than normal light crossbows for two reasons:
You can fire, reload, then move or do whatever.
You can mod the crap out of them, if you have a mechanical mind and have some ranks in mechanics you can have endless fun.

But why not just use a heavy repeater crossbow? Well if your not planing on using it in one hand then its the bomb, but the light is better for two handed.

Now if you took my advice and rolled up a engineer gnome with a few levels in Wizard of Artificer you could build the repeater hand crossbow that reloads itself. Animate it so that it pulls the lever back by magic every time you fire, you would still have to load the clip in every five shots though. Now if you could somehow fire two times a round you have a clip of holding with 1,000,000 bolts in it.

This is probably all cheaper than you peoples complicated four hands idea (which is still an awesome way to make the GM cry).

Curmudgeon
2009-08-13, 02:12 AM
For juggling, I like Eldariel's solution of wearing 2 gloves of storing and popping them in and out of the extradimensional space to free the hand to reload.
Doesn't work, according to the rules.
Some body slots are described as a matched pair of body parts. If an item uses one of these body slots, it takes up both “halves” of the body slot even if worn on only one of the pair. For example, a glove of storing takes up the entire hands body slot, even though it’s only one glove.

Mavian
2009-08-13, 02:28 AM
Get a third hand?

Dragonborn of Bahamaut, + Dragon Tail, + Prehensile Tail gives you a third hand to pull the levers, so you can TWF with the other two.

Cieyrin
2009-08-13, 12:10 PM
Doesn't work, according to the rules.

Aww, lame. Gimped by the Rules Compendium. :smallfurious:

Well, maybe it'll work with just one glove of storing. Fire with both, store one crossbow, reload remaining crossbow, retrieve stored crossbow, juggle, store other, reload the newly returned crossbow, retrieve stored crossbow, repeat. Given storing and retrieving are free actions, Rapid Reloading light crossbows is a free action, the only questionable mechanic is whether switching weapons between hands could be a free action or not. I don't see why it couldn't, plus you then have your juggling in there that also looks cooler than the 3-hand shuffle of the spare hand. Maybe a Slight of Hand or Perform(Juggle) skill check would have to be involved to avoid dropping a crossbow in the process. Well worth the cost, I'd say.

FMArthur
2009-08-13, 12:48 PM
If you can get Perform (Juggle) high enough, you might not even need the assistance of magic items.

Cieyrin
2009-08-13, 05:22 PM
If you can get Perform (Juggle) high enough, you might not even need the assistance of magic items.

Looks like homebrew in the making, though having a crossbow in the air long enough to reload may be an issue and not losing the loaded bolt while they're being thrown around is something else to consider, as i doubt it would necessarily stay in a position that the bolt would stay in the crossbow groove.

Stormthorn
2009-08-13, 05:29 PM
It's really bad. Like really, really bad. I touched upon the matter here (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=642.0). The only salvaging feature of the Light Repeating Crossbow is that you get proficiency in it for free when you take EWP: Repeating Crossbow for the Heavy version.

Its also cool tho. Thats a plus. Light crossbows are always cooler than those heavy ones.

And if the problem is in pulling back the lever then the answer is an extra limb. I suggest taking Deepspawn feat for two long slimy extra limbs.

Eldariel
2009-08-13, 05:39 PM
Its also cool tho. Thats a plus. Light crossbows are always cooler than those heavy ones.

And if the problem is in pulling back the lever then the answer is an extra limb. I suggest taking Deepspawn feat for two long slimy extra limbs.

Personally, I'd rather play purebloods than genetic mutants though YMMV.

Otodetu
2009-08-13, 07:50 PM
I have seen rants about crossbows and armour in this thread.

I the old days I too ranted endlessly, until I found out i was right, there are massive flaws in the armour and crossbow rulings and i only get pissed at thinking about it.

So i fixed it.

My fix gave every armour a role and the repeating crossbow a larger magazine, not to painful, and I felt like a great burden was lifted off my chest, until I played core once again that is...

Random832
2009-08-13, 08:16 PM
Doesn't work, according to the rules.

It's arguable that this is intended to prevent you from having two _different_ gloves, rather than two gloves of storing (maybe say only one of them can store an item at a time; which is sufficient for this idea if I'm reading it right. You could fluff it as only one being functional at all at a time, and switching which one is functional and which one is a mundane glove with no supply of - "chakra", was it? - as a free action)

Certainly two gloves of storing is going to cost more than an analogous "pair-o-gloves of storing" would.

sofawall
2009-08-13, 08:49 PM
Actually, isn't the rule you can have multiple magic items in a slot, it's just only one can be active at a time?

What's the rule for changing which is active?

kentma57
2009-08-13, 09:24 PM
Actually, Kaiyanwang, I checked. They have to be reloaded with two hands. (Who fights with two small shields?)

I've done it. :smallbiggrin:

Curmudgeon
2009-08-13, 09:53 PM
Actually, isn't the rule you can have multiple magic items in a slot, it's just only one can be active at a time?

What's the rule for changing which is active?
The rule is that you have to take off all other items in the slot until the one you want active is the only one left.
Additional magic items could be worn in the same body slot, but only the first-worn item confers its magical abilities upon the wearer.

sofawall
2009-08-13, 10:08 PM
Inconvenient.

Thatguyoverther
2009-08-13, 10:37 PM
On a slightly related note, is there anywhere I can get rules for a polybolos or a repeating ballista (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polybolos)? According to wiki it could fire 11 times in a minute, so ~2 a round.

Harperfan7
2009-08-13, 10:47 PM
I have seen rants about crossbows and armour in this thread.

I the old days I too ranted endlessly, until I found out i was right, there are massive flaws in the armour and crossbow rulings and i only get pissed at thinking about it.

So i fixed it.

My fix gave every armour a role and the repeating crossbow a larger magazine, not to painful, and I felt like a great burden was lifted off my chest, until I played core once again that is...

I made 50-bolt gatlin clips in my homebrew and I've always wanted each armor to have a role. Is there any chance you could give us a link or post a thread with your ideas?