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dspeyer
2009-08-11, 11:15 PM
I was looking through ToB recently, and thinking that it's seriously short of PrCs. There are only a handful, and they're rather limited in application. Here are a few more I thought up.

Do these look effective? Fun? Non-abusable?

This is my first homebrewing. My apologies if formatting is improper or such.

Student of Nine Claws
Swords are crutches for those lacking their own weaponry. The sublime way does not require such things.

Long ago, a master swordsage went looking for students, and a copper dragon went looking for entertainment. They met, and the dragon said, "Teach me something interesting." Two years later they parted, and the dragon had much to ponder.

In time, she developed these techniques. Since then, they have spread to many creatures who desire an edge in combat, but their roots with an inquisitive copper dragon still show.

Prerequisites: 2 claws and one other natural weapon, flight maneuverability average or better, flyby attack, int 13, a 3rd level tiger claw maneuver

HP: d10
Skills: 4+int
Class Skills: Appraise, Balance, Jump, Knowledge(any), Listen, Martial Lore, Sense Motive, Search, Spot

{table]BAB|Ref|Fort|Will|Man|Features
1|2|2|0|1T|Natural Weaponry, Double Claw
2|3|3|0|1|Precise Breath
3|3|3|1|1T|Pouncing Charge
4|4|4|1|1|Snatching Throw
5|4|4|1|1T|Swooping attack[/table]

Maneuvers: at each odd level, gain a maneuver known from the Tiger Claw school. At each even level, gain a manuerver from the Setting Sun, Stone Dragon or Tiger Claw school.

Natural Weaponry (ex): You may treat all of your natural weapons as tiger claw weapons

Double Claw (ex): When you make a single attack, you may use two of your claws together. This does damage like a claw of one size category larger, and counts as two-handed for power attack, sunder and similar effects. It does not enable rend.

Precise Breath (ex): If you have a breath weapon that can function as a line, you may treat it as a weapon. The target gets no save, but you must make a ranged touch attack. There is no half damage. A breath attack of this sort has a critical multiplier of 20x3, like a longbow, and can be used for precision damage.

Pouncing Charge (ex): You can make a full attack on a charge.

Snatching Throw (ex): If you have any setting sun maneuvers that begin with a trip attack, you can use then against a smaller target which you are grappling. You automatically succeed on the check. If you have initiated grapple this round, you may execute the maneuver as a free action.

Swooping attack (ex): If you have any tiger claw maneuvers that involve jumping over an opponent, you may instead execute them by flying directly over the opponent's head. You must successfully move before and after the attack. Treat this as succedding on the jump check.

Shadowstalker
If you can see him, he wants you to. If you can't, you may be about to die.

A shadowstalker is one who focuses obsessively on the shadow hand school and the principles of stealth it espouses. By focussing so narrowly, he gains many supernatural powers of shadow that dilletants miss.

Prerequisites: Hide 8 ranks, Move Silently 8 ranks, 2 shadow hand strikes and 1 shadow hand stance, all 2rd level or higher.

HP: d8
Skills: 6+int
Class Skills: Bluff, Climb, Disable Device, Disguise, Hide, Listen, Martial Lore, Move Silently, Search, Spot
Martial Pathes: Shadow Hand

{table]BAB|Ref|Fort|Will|Maneuvers Known|Stances|Maneuvers Readied|Special Abilities
0|2|0|0|1| | |darkvision, slippery skin
1|3|0|0| | | |turn detection
2|3|1|1|1| | |glamer 1
3|4|1|1| |1| |turn location
3|4|1|1|1| |1|glamer 2
4|5|2|2| | | |turn scrying
5|5|2|2|1| | |glamer 3
6|6|2|2| |1| |turn mental divination
6|6|3|3|1| | |glamer 4
7|7|3|3| | |1|turn divination (all)[/table]

Darkvision (ex): By long experience, you are at home in the dark. Gain darkvision to 30 feet. If you already have darkvision, extend it by 30 feet.

Slippery Skin (su): You coat yourself in an invisible, infinitely thin layer of slippery shadowstuff. Things no longer stick to you. You do not become dirty. You may climb webs as if they were nets. You are uneffected by glitterdust and similar techniques.

Turn Detection (su): By keeping part of your essence between this plane and the plane of shadow, you and your equipment become immune to magical detection of based on alignment, creature type, mind or magical aura unless you wish to be effected.

Turn location (su): The same, but for Locate Object, Locate Creature, and other spells which work in the same manner.

Turn scrying (su): The same, but for spells with the scrying descriptor.

Turn Mental Divinations (su): The same, for any divination spell that allows a will save.

Turn All Divinations (su): The same, for all divination spells.

Glamer (sla): Select an illusion(glamer) spell from the sor/wiz list of level 1 or lower. Gain it as a spell-like ability 3/day. The choice cannot be changed. At 4th level, gain a second such spell like ability of level 2 or lower, and so on.

Artmage
Some suspect that the dance of a martial artist on the battlefield mirrors the dance of the universe through possibility. Others know it for certain.

Supernatural martial maneuvers and arcane spells tap into the same elemental power of magic from very different directions. An Artmage is one who is so expert in both that she can make them meet in the middle, gaining new control over magic. Most Artmages start as wizard/swordsages, but many other pathes are possible.

Prerequisites: 3rd level arcane spells, a 3rd level supernatural maneuver, 13 ranks spellcraft, 13 ranks martial lore, eschew materials, adaptive style

HP: d6
Skills: 2+int
Class skills: Concentration, Hide, Intimidate, Knowledge(arcana), Martial Lore, Spellcraft, Tumble
Martial Paths: Desert Wind, Devoted Spirit, Diamond Mind, Shadow Hand

{table]BAB|Ref|Fort|Will|Man Known|Stances|Man Red|spells|features
0|0|0|2|1| | |+1 level|martial conversion(strike,1)
1|0|0|3| | |1|+1 level|
2|1|1|3|1| | |+1 level|martial conversion(2)
3|1|1|4| |1| | |martial conversion(boost)
3|1|1|4|1| | |+1 level|martial conversion(3)
4|2|2|5| | |1|+1 level|
5|2|2|5|1| | |+1 level|martial conversion(4)
6|2|2|6| |1| | |martial conversion(stance)
6|3|3|6|1| | |+1 level|martial conversion(5)
7|3|3|7| | |1|+1 level|martial conversion(any)[/table]

Martial Conversion (Su):
Drawing on your mixed understanding of arcane magic and the mystical side of the sublime path, you can convert arcane spells into martial maneuvers. At first, you can only convert 1st level or lower offensive spells into strikes, but with practice, you become more versatile. Nevertheless, you can never convert a spell with a material or XP cost, nor a spell with a casting time greater than one round.

To convert a spell, you must spend an uninterrupted hour in meditation, study and practice. At the end, you must make a spellcraft check and a martial study check against DC 25 + 2 X spell level (e.g. 24 for a 2nd level spell). You may take 10. If you fail the check, you must start over. You do not increase your maneuvers known this way -- you must unlearn an old maneuver to learn this one.

The newly created maneuver is supernatural, of no school, and of equal level to the spell it was derived from. If it has a saving throw, that throw is now wisdom based. The maneuver can be taught like any other, but the student must make a DC 15+level spellcraft check in order to learn it.

At first, you may only convert spells 1st level or lower. At third level, you may also convery 2nd level spells, and so on.

At first, you may only convert spells which target a creature, object or set thereof and do not have the harmless descriptor into strike maneuvers.

At fourth level, you may convert any transmutation or abjuration with a duration longer than one round into a boost maneuver. Activating it is a swift action. For the rest of the round, you gain the effect of having the spell cast on you.

At eighth level, you may convert any transmutation or abjuration with a duration longer than 2 minutes into a stance. You do not forget ordinary stances to do this, but instead know a single converted stance, which you forget when you convert a new one.

At tenth level, you may convert any spell of fifth level or lower that does not have the creation descriptor and meets the general prerequisites into a strike maneuver.

AstralFire
2009-08-11, 11:22 PM
It would help if you cleaned up formatting a little. Am a bit tired right now, but being able to take spells of any level as Martial Maneuvers by 10th level is... broken.

dspeyer
2009-08-11, 11:28 PM
The 5th level cap still applies. It's any as opposed to just attacks and buffs. I guess I should have made that clearer.

Edited.

elliott20
2009-08-11, 11:32 PM
Student of the Nine Claws is alright. Nothing earth shattering, but a nice little PrC for fliers, I suppose.

Shadowstalker seems pretty powerful mostly because of two things: 1. super anti-detection powers, 2. the fuzzy description on slippery skin, and 3. glamor is an awesome ability.

the first one I'll leave to someone else who can better analyze the implication of perfect anti-scrying. But number 2 leaves a lot of room for funny interpretations. It also means invisibility is now impossible to deal with now. I think you need to clarify exactly how this works mechanically, what it allows and what it doesn't allow.

Artmage I'm a little confused with... it reads like it's basically an arcane swordsage... but requires more work. how does this conversion thing happen exactly? as in, do I convert a spell into a maneuver? is that what you're getting at?

Thrice Dead Cat
2009-08-12, 01:56 AM
Student of Nine Claws
*fluff*

Prerequisites: 2 claws and one other natural weapon, flight maneuverability average or better, flyby attack, int 13, a 3rd level tiger claw maneuver


The fluff is interesting, making it clear that this is meant for dragons. Sadly, the entry requirements are a bit harsh on 'em. I would personally ease up on the natural attack requirements, switching it to "Prerequisites: Natural weapon(s), weapon focus (some natural weapon), flyby attack, 3rd level tiger claw maneuver." If you want Int 13 as a requirement, maybe add some feat that requires Int 13, but it really feels like it is unnecessary for that.




HP: d10
Skills: 4+int
Class Skills: Appraise, Balance, Jump, Knowledge(any), Listen, Martial Lore, Sense Motive, Search, Spot

Other than having the Knowledge (all), skills seem fine. I would probably reduce it to Knowledge: (Arcana, History, Religion?).




{table]BAB|Ref|Fort|Will|Man|Features
1|2|2|0|1T|Natural Weaponry, Double Claw
2|3|3|0|1|Precise Breath
3|3|3|1|1T|Pouncing Charge
4|4|4|1|1|Snatching Throw
5|4|4|1|1T|Swooping attack[/table]

Saves and BAB all seem in order for a big monster.



Maneuvers: at each odd level, gain a maneuver known from the Tiger Claw school. At each even level, gain a manuerver from the Setting Sun, Stone Dragon or Tiger Claw school.

This is a little odd, since, technically, you don't ever get anymore maneuvers readied nor do you gain any stances. It would seem more appropriate to have the even levels give you more readied and just be able to learn from any of the three disciplines on the odd levels.



Natural Weaponry (ex): You may treat all of your natural weapons as tiger claw weapons

Seems like a good class ability, and it works well with the Swordsage's class abilities.



Double Claw (ex): When you make a single attack, you may use two of your claws together. This does damage like a claw of one size category larger, and counts as two-handed for power attack, sunder and similar effects. It does not enable rend.

Nice ability, although it does restrict you to your claws. Either opening up to any tiger claw weapons would probably work better, but maybe just two of the same natural weapon instead. As is, it feels like a better version of Dual Strike from Complete Adventurer.



Precise Breath (ex): If you have a breath weapon that can function as a line, you may treat it as a weapon. The target gets no save, but you must make a ranged touch attack. There is no half damage. A breath attack of this sort has a critical multiplier of 20x3, like a longbow, and can be used for precision damage.

This, I really like. It does kind of move the prestige class away from the natural weapon schtick it has going, but it's not bad. I would mention whether or not the new breath weapon is a natural weapon or not, probably also restricting it's use per round. Also, limiting to just line breathe weapons feels a little cruel to dragon(shaman)s with cones.

As a side note, if someone manages to enter this prestige class without a breathe weapon, it probably wouldn't hurt to either give another ability here or to just give a weak breathe weapon to those without any.



Pouncing Charge (ex): You can make a full attack on a charge.

Powerful on a barbarian, powerful on a dragon. Not a bad thing, though. It should probably just have pounce's wording though.



Snatching Throw (ex): If you have any setting sun maneuvers that begin with a trip attack, you can use then against a smaller target which you are grappling. You automatically succeed on the check. If you have initiated grapple this round, you may execute the maneuver as a free action.

The wording is a little clunky here, so I'm not entirely sure what it does. From the looks of it allows you to auto-grapple someone with a trip attempt maneuver. It looks okay: nothing groundbreaking, just a little unclear.



Swooping attack (ex): If you have any tiger claw maneuvers that involve jumping over an opponent, you may instead execute them by flying directly over the opponent's head. You must successfully move before and after the attack. Treat this as succedding on the jump check.

Honestly, this ability feels less like a capstone and more like a 2nd or 3rd level ability for the prestige class. In and of itself, however, it is not bad; it just comes too late too the table.

I'll take a closer look at Artmage with an edit, but I'm going to wait for clarification on Shadowstalker's table before I look at it.

dspeyer
2009-08-12, 09:43 PM
I fixed the Shadowstalker table. It turns out that if you don't give a column a heading it just doesn't get rendered.

The idea of slippery skin was to overcome glitterdust, that persistent no-save bane of stealth characters. Since glitterdust makes glowing stuff that sticks to you, it can be overcome by not getting stuck to. I don't expect it will do much else -- how often does stickiness enter a DND campaign?

Thrice Dead Cat
2009-08-13, 01:21 AM
Shadowstalker
*fluff*

Prerequisites: Hide 8 ranks, Move Silently 8 ranks, 2 shadow hand strikes and 1 shadow hand stance, all 2rd level or higher.

Skill requirements and everything's fine here. Easily met at 5th level.



HP: d8
Skills: 6+int
Class Skills: Bluff, Climb, Disable Device, Disguise, Hide, Listen, Martial Lore, Move Silently, Search, Spot
Martial Pathes: Shadow Hand


HD and skill points are fine. The amount of class skills, though, is a little small. It probably wouldn't hurt to just copy the Swordsage's list verbatim. Only having access to shadow hand is a little sad, especially when you consider that the obvious entry has such a wide breath of options open to them. I would at least add Setting Sun to the list, maybe Desert Wind.



{table]BAB|Ref|Fort|Will|Maneuvers Known|Stances|Maneuvers Readied|Special Abilities
0|2|0|0|1| | |darkvision, slippery skin
1|3|0|0| | | |turn detection
2|3|1|1|1| | |glamer 1
3|4|1|1| |1| |turn location
3|4|1|1|1| |1|glamer 2
4|5|2|2| | | |turn scrying
5|5|2|2|1| | |glamer 3
6|6|2|2| |1| |turn mental divination
6|6|3|3|1| | |glamer 4
7|7|3|3| | |1|turn divination (all)[/table]

Average BAB and Good Ref seem appropriate. Changing the maneuvers readied to one at 3rd, 6th, and 9th would probably be better. Still behind straight Swordsage, but it's more in line with the current 10 levels long PrCs.


Darkvision (ex): By long experience, you are at home in the dark. Gain darkvision to 30 feet. If you already have darkvision, extend it by 30 feet.

Gaining darkvision is a nice little ability, but I would change it to 60ft. base with races that already have darkvision only gaining 30ft.


Slippery Skin (su): You coat yourself in an invisible, infinitely thin layer of slippery shadowstuff. Things no longer stick to you. You do not become dirty. You may climb webs as if they were nets. You are uneffected by glitterdust and similar techniques.
The idea of slippery skin was to overcome glitterdust, that persistent no-save bane of stealth characters. Since glitterdust makes glowing stuff that sticks to you, it can be overcome by not getting stuck to. I don't expect it will do much else -- how often does stickiness enter a DND campaign?

If that's the case, it would probably be better to remove wording on stickiness and instead just mention that the Shadowstalker can walk on webs, not suffer the -40 hide from glitterdust and a few other things instead.

Right now, giving it that fluff sounds a little silly, and I would not be surprised if someone mentioned it helping them be immune to grapples. Now, making it give bonuses to escape artist is probably a good thing.


Turn Detection (su): By keeping part of your essence between this plane and the plane of shadow, you and your equipment become immune to magical detection of based on that discriminates and detects by alignment, creature type, mind or magical aura unless you wish to be effected.

There's a slight wording issue here, but it's easy to fix. The bold is my recommendation, but it's not perfect. It would probably be easier to just copy nondetection. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/nondetection.htm)


Turn location (su): The same, but for Locate Object, Locate Creature, and other spells which work in the same manner.

Again, just elaborating on nondetection would probably help here.


Turn scrying (su): The same, but for spells with the scrying descriptor.

There might already be some spell that nets you immunity to scrying. If so, copying that and turning it into a class ability would help with consistency.


Turn Mental Divinations (su): The same, for any divination spell that allows a will save.

I am personally not a fan of absolutes like this, as it also happens to stop the rare will save divination debuff. A difficult caster level check would probably be just as good, due to there then being a save on the character's part.


Turn All Divinations (su): The same, for all divination spells.

See above.


Glamer (SLA): Select an illusion(glamer) spell from the sor/wiz list of level 1 or lower. Gain it as a spell-like ability 3/day. The choice cannot be changed. At 4th level, gain a second such spell like ability of level 2 or lower, and so on.

This is kind of cute. The uses per day should be enough, but, after looking at the artmage, it might not be too bad to just turn the illusion spells into maneuvers. If you go that route, it would probably help to mess with the restrictions on what spells can be transformed.

Thrice Dead Cat
2009-08-14, 11:19 AM
Okay, time to tackle the last of these.


Artmage
*marshmallows*

Prerequisites: 3rd level arcane spells, a 3rd level supernatural maneuver, 13 ranks spellcraft, 13 ranks martial lore, eschew materials, adaptive style

The prerequisites are rough. Getting 3rd level arcane spells is easily done by 5th level without cheatery. 3rd level maneuvers, without multiclassing into Jade Phoenix Mage can be down at 9th level, but, by then, you've already dedicated yourself primarily to casting. The best way to resolve that would probably be to drop either the maneuver level requirement down to 2nd or both. If you do so, it would probably also help to add a stance known requirement.

The restriction to just a supernatural maneuver, while flavorful, feels a little like it's a bit much. A little more flexible, but similar result would be to require one Desert Wind or Shadow Hand maneuver.

The skill requirements are also a little high, and I personally do not care for ten-level long prestige classes that end right at 20th level, at the earliest.

As for feats, you've got one "gimme" and one wasted.


HP: d6
Skills: 2+int
Class skills: Concentration, Hide, Intimidate, Knowledge(arcana), Martial Lore, Spellcraft, Tumble
Martial Paths: Desert Wind, Devoted Spirit, Diamond Mind, Shadow Hand

Skills are fine for more martial focused whacking types, but Swordsages might feel the hurt. It definitely needs move silently on the list.

The HD is looking a little low. Boosting it to d8 probably wouldn't be too much, but I'm viewing it more as a Gish class than what you may have intended it for. If you don't increase the HD, boosting skills to 4+int would probably be fine.

Again, on the "Martial Paths," while your formatting is clear, it wouldn't hurt to just copy pasta from the other PrCs and throw that in below the table to tell people what maneuvers they can choose from. As for the disciplines themselves, Devoted Spirit is looking like the odd one out of this bunch. Replacing it with Setting Sun would probably work.


{table]BAB|Ref|Fort|Will|Man Known|Stances|Man Red|spells|features
0|0|0|2|1| | |+1 level|martial conversion(strike,1)
1|0|0|3| | |1|+1 level|
2|1|1|3|1| | |+1 level|martial conversion(2)
3|1|1|4| |1| | |martial conversion(boost)
3|1|1|4|1| | |+1 level|martial conversion(3)
4|2|2|5| | |1|+1 level|
5|2|2|5|1| | |+1 level|martial conversion(4)
6|2|2|6| |1| | |martial conversion(stance)
6|3|3|6|1| | |+1 level|martial conversion(5)
7|3|3|7| | |1|+1 level|martial conversion(any)[/table]

Saves seem fine. BAB is probably also fine at 3/4s. Decreasing the stance to just one at 5th level might be in order, but it's not a big deal as is. Casting increase also looks appropriate.


Martial Conversion (Su):

This, just this. Jeez, it's a little hard to know where to begin with it, what with having to adjudicate everything about the spells changing into maneuvers and all. Also, the sheer volume available might be too much in and of itself.

Even so, I absolutely love the idea behind it, making it work in practice without roflcopter-pew-pew-deathlazers-potato-chips-you-win is going to be an issue.


Drawing on your mixed understanding of arcane magic and the mystical side of the sublime path, you can convert arcane spells into martial maneuvers. At first, you can only convert 1st level or lower offensive spells into strikes, but with practice, you become more versatile. Nevertheless, you can never convert a spell with a material or XP cost, nor a spell with a casting time greater than one round.

RAW, having that little bit in there might still preclude you from accessing things like black tentacles, even though Eschew Materials gets rid of the need for a bit of squid. The quick fix would be to make it read "Nevertheless, you can never convert a spell with an expensive (>1GP) material or XP component cost, nor a spell with a casting time greater than one round."


To convert a spell, you must spend an uninterrupted hour in meditation, study and practice. At the end, you must make a spellcraft check and a martial study check against DC 25 + 2 X spell level (e.g. 24 for a 2nd level spell). You may take 10. If you fail the check, you must start over. You do not increase your maneuvers known this way -- you must unlearn an old maneuver to learn this one.

This seems like a fine way to convert the spells, but it's a little vague. How often can I convert the spells? Once per level? Per day? Hour? What happens if I want my regular maneuver maneuver back?


The newly created maneuver is supernatural, of no school, and of equal level to the spell it was derived from. If it has a saving throw, that throw is now wisdom based. The maneuver can be taught like any other, but the student must make a DC 15+level spellcraft check in order to learn it.

First off, I would nix the ability to teach it to others who are not already Artmages themselves, maybe even entirely get rid of it. Also, it would probably be best to, instead of making the new spells-turned-maneuvers schoolless, either create a new discipline for them or simply say "X school of magic becomes Y discipline of blademagic."


At first, you may only convert spells 1st level or lower. At third level, you may also convery 2nd level spells, and so on.

At first, you may only convert spells which target a creature, object or set thereof and do not have the harmless descriptor into strike maneuvers.

It would seem the intent would be to turn blasty spells into maneuvers. If that's so, it would help to also include the duration restrictions as well. Mentioning what the new distance is and whether or not things like fireball remain an area of effect or not are needed.


At fourth level, you may convert any transmutation or abjuration with a duration longer than one round into a boost maneuver. Activating it is a swift action. For the rest of the round, you gain the effect of having the spell cast on you.

This is where we're getting into the silliness. As is, it's letting you have your spells like polymorph as quickened spells. Also, I would change the way the duration reads to "longer than one round/level" to help curb some of the abuse. It would probably also be in order to mention that only (harmless) spells are applicable.


At eighth level, you may convert any transmutation or abjuration with a duration longer than 2 minutes into a stance. You do not forget ordinary stances to do this, but instead know a single converted stance, which you forget when you convert a new one.

Same as above on the duration restriction. It would probably also be in order to mention that only (harmless) spells are applicable. This is basically acting as persistent spell for any one abjuration or transmutation buff spell you've got.


At tenth level, you may convert any spell of fifth level or lower that does not have the creation descriptor and meets the general prerequisites into a strike maneuver.

This last one is just opening a can of worms. It doesn't take into account enough of the possibilities as to what's out there. This is the one that's wracking my brain as to what to do with it, other than altering the capstone beyond recognition.

As an aside, if you intend for this to me like Archmage in late game potential, it might not be a bad idea to drop the class down to five levels and instead offer a new spell level conversion at each level.

DracoDei
2009-08-14, 11:42 AM
The restriction to just a supernatural maneuver, while flavorful, feels a little like it's a bit much. A little more flexible, but similar result would be to require one Desert Wind or Shadow Hand maneuver.
Yeah, but what if someone wants to use a homebrew discipline to qualify for the class? That would argue for leaving it the way is was to start with.