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View Full Version : Timeless body vs Transcend Mortality



quick_comment
2009-08-11, 11:30 PM
I am building up an epic character, and I thought it would be fun to persist transcend mortality.

Its a level 9 wu jen spell, that among other nice things give you DR 10/epic, SR 21+caster level, resist 50 to all elements, etc.

It has the side effect of when the spell ends, you die, no save and no way to prevent it.

Timeless body is a 9th level psionic power that says "Your body ignores all harmful (and helpful) effects"


So I manifest timeless body when time runs out on transcend mortality. Do I die?


Edit: Also, if you go far enough with magic/psionics transparency, timeless body is persistable via incantrix.

Jack_Simth
2009-08-11, 11:36 PM
If I'm DMing and you don't appear to have any particular tricks up your sleeve? Transcend Mortality is put into stasis for as long as the Timeless Body lasts. After all, it's not like anything Transcend Mortality gives you beats what Timeless Body gives you. So if you've got Timeless Body up when Transcend Mortality ends, you buy yourself... what, one or two rounds? And do note that you can't benefit from a new manifestation of Timeless Body while you've still got Timeless Body up (it's a helpful effect that you must ignore), so you WILL die.

quick_comment
2009-08-11, 11:39 PM
If I'm DMing and you don't appear to have any particular tricks up your sleeve? Transcend Mortality is put into stasis for as long as the Timeless Body lasts. After all, it's not like anything Transcend Mortality gives you beats what Timeless Body gives you. So if you've got Timeless Body up when Transcend Mortality ends, you buy yourself... what, one or two rounds? And do note that you can't benefit from a new manifestation of Timeless Body while you've still got Timeless Body up (it's a helpful effect that you must ignore), so you WILL die.

No, what I mean is this.

Transcend mortality ends next round. I manifest timeless body, which lasts until the end of my next turn (when I am supposed to die). Transcend mortality says "you die, no ifs ands or buts", and timeless body says "you are invincible, and nothing can affect you"

Thrice Dead Cat
2009-08-11, 11:40 PM
I would say no, due to the fact that Transcend Mortality says that no means can prevent the death effect at the end cannot be prevented. It would come down to whether or not Timeless Body's "no" effect overrides Transcend Mortality's.

Going with the general stance on non-epic spells being stopped by epic abilities, if you can get Timeless Body's effect as an epic spell, it would probably work.

tyckspoon
2009-08-11, 11:41 PM
No, what I mean is this.

Transcend mortality ends next round. I manifest timeless body, which lasts until the end of my next turn (when I am supposed to die). Transcend mortality says "you die, no ifs ands or buts", and timeless body says "you are invincible, and nothing can affect you"

I agree with Jack on this one; Transcend Mortality kills you. If it has to wait until Timeless Body ends to do that, it will. Both effects are satisfied.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-08-11, 11:58 PM
Why not just use Persistent Power (http://wizards.com/d20/files/msrd/ArcanaOccupationsandFeats.rtf) with Timeless Body? Take the feat Metapower (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Metapower,CoP) from Complete Psionic along with Overchannel and Vigor. Timeless Body costs 17 powerpoints, Persistent Power costs +8 but Metapower reduces it to +6, for a total cost of 23 powerpoints. At level 20 you can manifest Vigor to gain 40 temporary HP to offset the 5d8 damage from Overchanneling +3, for a manifester level of 23, high enough to Metapower Persist a Timeless Body pre-epic.

Deth Muncher
2009-08-12, 12:03 AM
If you're really looking for cheesy ways to avoid death by nova, then just get a Contingent True Res, with the contingency being your death.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-08-12, 12:19 AM
Or just take Spellguard of Silverymoon (PGtF), cast Transcend Mortality on your opponent, and dismiss it immediately to kill them.

Talic
2009-08-12, 12:27 AM
Based on timing, Timeless body wouldn't negate the death next round.

It would negate the benefits of Transcend Mortality as soon as if came into effect. You're immune to them.

However, that's not the end of it.

Timeless body says, "you're immune to everything. Prevent any effect that would hurt or help you."

Transcend Mortality says, "at the end of this, you die. Do not pass Go. Do not collect $200. There is no way to stop or prevent this."

In this, TB protects from an effect.
TM overrides protections.
Transcend Mortality wins, you die. Right then. No waiting for TB to end, nothing else.

sofawall
2009-08-12, 01:34 AM
Specific beats general.

olentu
2009-08-12, 02:29 AM
Why not just use Persistent Power (http://wizards.com/d20/files/msrd/ArcanaOccupationsandFeats.rtf) with Timeless Body? Take the feat Metapower (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Metapower,CoP) from Complete Psionic along with Overchannel and Vigor. Timeless Body costs 17 powerpoints, Persistent Power costs +8 but Metapower reduces it to +6, for a total cost of 23 powerpoints. At level 20 you can manifest Vigor to gain 40 temporary HP to offset the 5d8 damage from Overchanneling +3, for a manifester level of 23, high enough to Metapower Persist a Timeless Body pre-epic.

One would probably not use persistent power since it would seem to me that the subject of discussion is a game of D&D and not a game of D20 modern unless of course I am not remembering where there is a D&D version of persistent power.

Jothki
2009-08-12, 02:37 AM
Specific beats general.

Which is specific and which is general, though?

Transcend Mortality says that nothing can resist it. Timeless Body says that there's nothing that it can't resist. Shouldn't the specific effect of Timeless Body also override the general immunity to resistance of Transcend Mortality?

The Rose Dragon
2009-08-12, 02:47 AM
One would probably not use persistent power since it would seem to me that the subject of discussion is a game of D&D and not a game of D20 modern unless of course I am not remembering where there is a D&D version of persistent power.

Complete Divine? I think it is in Complete Divine.

olentu
2009-08-12, 02:54 AM
Complete Divine? I think it is in Complete Divine.

I mean persistent power not persistent spell. Unless you caught that distinction and for some reason there is a matapsionic feat in complete divine.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-08-12, 03:49 AM
The point of the d20 rules is that mechanics are easily transferable between games. The psionics in d20 modern use the same rules as in 3.5, and 3.5 psionics have seen a considerable lack of official support. Persistent Spell is an official 3.5 metamagic feat, Persistent Power is an official psionic version of that feat, designed for the same system of psionics that 3.5 uses. It is not unreasonable to expect to use Persistent Power in a 3.5 game.

olentu
2009-08-12, 03:59 AM
The point of the d20 rules is that mechanics are easily transferable between games. The psionics in d20 modern use the same rules as in 3.5, and 3.5 psionics have seen a considerable lack of official support. Persistent Spell is an official 3.5 metamagic feat, Persistent Power is an official psionic version of that feat, designed for the same system of psionics that 3.5 uses. It is not unreasonable to expect to use Persistent Power in a 3.5 game.

I would have to say that in my opinion it rather is. I see no reason why one would expect that they would be allowed to use an ability that is from a different game in D&D just because they are similar and the games share the same core mechanic.

Talic
2009-08-12, 04:03 AM
I wouldn't expect to use the Ashbound feat in a FR game. Even though it's official 3.5 product, it doesn't match the setting.

d20Modern does not match the D&D setting, just as Eberron doesn't match Forgotten Realms.

The Rose Dragon
2009-08-12, 04:05 AM
I mean persistent power not persistent spell. Unless you caught that distinction and for some reason there is a matapsionic feat in complete divine.

Nah, that was my mistake. I read Persistent Spell for some reason.


I wouldn't expect to use the Ashbound feat in a FR game. Even though it's official 3.5 product, it doesn't match the setting.

I don't recall Ashbound to be very setting-specific, to be honest (well, except for the name).

Jackel
2009-08-12, 04:51 AM
The two absolutes form an Omnipotence paradox and thereby cause reality to crash when attempted.

Alternatively your DM could rule that BOTH absolute effects work, so you are both effectively dead and alive at the same time. Undead, I suppose.

Rules lawyering doesn't always have to be boring :smallbiggrin:

The Rose Dragon
2009-08-12, 04:53 AM
The two absolutes form an Omnipotence paradox and thereby cause reality to crash when attempted.

Alternatively your DM could rule that BOTH absolute effects work, so you are both effectively dead and alive at the same time. Undead, I suppose.

Rules lawyering doesn't always have to be boring :smallbiggrin:

Schrödinger's Cerebremancer?

Yuki Akuma
2009-08-12, 04:59 AM
The point of the d20 rules is that mechanics are easily transferable between games. The psionics in d20 modern use the same rules as in 3.5, and 3.5 psionics have seen a considerable lack of official support. Persistent Spell is an official 3.5 metamagic feat, Persistent Power is an official psionic version of that feat, designed for the same system of psionics that 3.5 uses. It is not unreasonable to expect to use Persistent Power in a 3.5 game.

D20 Modern still uses the "each discipline has its own key ability" rules. So no. No they do not use the same psionics rules. Sorry.

Also, SFX abilities only go up to level 6. Persistent Power is only balanced for powers up to level 6, and for that matter only those ones that appear in D20 Modern books. Your logic is flawed.

Talic
2009-08-12, 05:07 AM
I don't recall Ashbound to be very setting-specific, to be honest (well, except for the name).

It's printed in the Eberron Campaign Setting (and only there). It's based on the Druidic religions of the area, most notably a segment of Ashbound Druids.

While the mechanics can apply out of setting, the feat was designed for that setting, and (unlike warforged, which got MM reprints) has stayed exclusively there.

Cyclocone
2009-08-12, 05:15 AM
The two absolutes form an Omnipotence paradox and thereby cause reality to crash when attempted.

Alternatively your DM could rule that BOTH absolute effects work, so you are both effectively dead and alive at the same time. Undead, I suppose.

Rules lawyering doesn't always have to be boring :smallbiggrin:

So this? (http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=1014):smallbiggrin:

The Rose Dragon
2009-08-12, 05:15 AM
It's printed in the Eberron Campaign Setting (and only there). It's based on the Druidic religions of the area, most notably a segment of Ashbound Druids.

While the mechanics can apply out of setting, the feat was designed for that setting, and (unlike warforged, which got MM reprints) has stayed exclusively there.

Like I said, other than the name, it's not setting-specific at all.

Coming from a point-buy background, I'm of the opinion that a feat should be a bundle of mechanics and nothing more. Of course, it might not be appropriate for D&D, which has setting-specific stuff in the core rulebooks (e.g. Assassin's "Any Evil" requirement), but that's my opinion.

Talic
2009-08-12, 05:33 AM
Like I said, other than the name, it's not setting-specific at all.

Coming from a point-buy background, I'm of the opinion that a feat should be a bundle of mechanics and nothing more. Of course, it might not be appropriate for D&D, which has setting-specific stuff in the core rulebooks (e.g. Assassin's "Any Evil" requirement), but that's my opinion.

The name is intrinsically tied to a setting specific group. Yes, it's possible to port over a Rashemi Witch to Eberron. That doesn't mean it's not setting specific. It's made for a setting.

A feat is a bundle of mechanics. But many DM's limit which bundles you may obtain. And "We're playing Faerun, so Eberron Campaign setting books are off limits" is a common one."

It's hard to find anything that's setting specific, as most mechanics port right over. But that might mean creating a lot of additional material to a campaign, to support it.

We seem to have a difference of opinions in playstyle.

Lord Loss
2009-08-12, 08:02 AM
What does Transend Mortality do? Sorry if this question has been awnsered or is stupid.

Eldariel
2009-08-12, 09:00 AM
What does Transend Mortality do? Sorry if this question has been awnsered or is stupid.

Read first post?

quick_comment
2009-08-12, 12:10 PM
I was actually wrong - its DR 30/epic, not DR 10

The Rose Dragon
2009-08-12, 12:11 PM
I was actually wrong - its DR 30/epic, not DR 10

So it's only marginally useless instead of utterly useless?

quick_comment
2009-08-12, 12:18 PM
So it's only marginally useless instead of utterly useless?

30/epic, SR 21+cl, resistance 50 to all elements, immunity to energy drain, ability damage, ability drain, and death effects, and +10 enhancement to all saving throws is useless?

Oh, and its cast as an immediate action

The Rose Dragon
2009-08-12, 12:24 PM
The DR part is useless, yes. Mostly due to how easily it is bypassed and how low the value is.

I didn't mean the spell in general, I just meant the DR.

quick_comment
2009-08-12, 12:26 PM
The DR part is useless, yes. Mostly due to how easily it is bypassed and how low the value is.

I didn't mean the spell in general, I just meant the DR.

There are enemies running around with +6 weapons in your game, with the party at level 20? A +6 weapon costs 720,000, thats way out of the what is available then. And +4 bane only works against a single type.

The Rose Dragon
2009-08-12, 12:27 PM
No, but most enemies find 30 damage, or physical damage in general, to be trivial.