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View Full Version : Balancing Ideas [3.5] (Now Summarized)



Quellian-dyrae
2009-08-12, 12:13 AM
So I thought I'd join the party with a set of game rebalance ideas. As is not uncommon, the aim is to do something to even the playing field between casters and non-casters in optimized play. More specifically, I'm aiming to remove, as much as I can, the ability of casters to neutralize, outdo, or invalidate other characters, builds, and even classes entirely. However, I'm trying to do so mainly with large-scale changes to entire types of things, rather than trying to fix individual spells, effects, abilities, or classes.

Also, I'm not aiming just to downgrade casters across the board; expect to see some of the weak options boosted and the most powerful or exploitable ones weakened. Hope you like it!

Since this thing wound up long, I've edited this post to serve as a summary of each modification. Full rules are in a post below for those who are interested, in spoilers for those who only want to look at certain ones.

MAGIC

Ally-Acquiring Spells (Summons, Compulsions, Animations, etc):
--You must spend spell slot of equal level when ally uses spell or SLA.
--If ally uses spell or SLA with XP cost or expensive component, you must pay XP.
--Allies can't use spells that are not on your list or too high in level for you to cast.
--Actively command EL of level - 2 of allies at once; remove all other control limits. Allies may be given tasks or active control given to another. No limit to allies not actively commanded. Single spell can summon allies of EL = SL * 1.5, drawn from list normally available to the spell.

Augments:
--Stat boosting augments are cast as an immediate action, last only one round, can target allies, do not expend slot.
--Cast combat augment "fully" to expend slot, effect lasts for encounter.

Battlefield Control:
--Reflex save lets you ignore movement restrictions if you leave area as soon as possible.
--Purposefully entering the area of a spell that deals persistent damage to an area deals triple damage.

Blanket Immunities:
--Replace with special SR of 15+CL against appropriate effects. Applies even against SR: No spells and supernatural abilities.
--Freedom of Movement and True Seeing partially use this variant, but have some additional rules for areas where this variant does not quite fit.

Direct Damage:
--Cast lesser version without expending spell slot.
--If you expend the spell slot, ignore damage cap and increase damage dice.
--Warlocks, Dragonfire Adepts, etc ahve their damage abilities increased.

Healing:
--Cures heal progressively greater damage/level, plus ability modifier, have quick casting times that get progressively slower.
--Can cast lesser version of a cure; heals half of the damage/level, always uses a standard action, and provides temp hp that can't bring you above full, but does not expend spell slot.
--Vigors provide double healing, duration is primary ability modifier + level rounds.
--Removing condition requires CL check, DC 10 + CL or DC = save DC.
--Cast lesser version of condition removing spell to treat roll as 6.

Metamagic:
--Each metamagic reducer applies once per spell, not per feat applied.

Polymorphing:
--Choose from various methods of polymorphing.
--Cosmetic: Only changes appearance and size. Hour/level.
--Strategic: Also gives a bonus to some skills. 10 Min/level. SL 2 or more.
--Versatile: Also grants exceptional abilities, movement, senses. Min/level. SL 3 or more.
--Combat: Grants enhancement bonus to physical ability scores and/or natural armor. Rounds/level. SL 4 or more.

(No) Save-or-X:
--DC penalty based on severity of condition imposed.
--Applies a penalty for a round on a successful save.
--Characters can postpone effects by taking nonlethal damage each round.

Skill Spells:
--Spells that duplicate a skill use let you use primary modifier and caster level for skill. Last 10 min/level. No retry, allows taking 10.
--Spells that provide +10 or higher bonus instead let you take 20.
--Invisibility lets you take 20 on Hide checks and hide in plain sight, ignore penalties.

Time Stopping:
--Take yourself and others outside of time stream, can only affect characters outside of time stream.
--Persistent and delayed effects remain outside of time stream when you go back in.



COMBAT

Action-based Movement:
--Move action lets you move your speed during the round. Can interrupt other actions to move.
--Withdraw to avoid AoOs for retreating at half speed. Run for extra speed at some defensive cost.
--Change movement mode as you wish during turn's movement.
--Spring attack modified to work better with variant.

Full Attacks:
--Full attack as swift+standard rather than full round, if desired.

Grapples:
--Remove list of allowed actions. You can do anything you could normally do, but must make Grapple check first.
--Can replace Grapple with Escape Artist to perform a physical action, Concentration for a mental action.
--Can also grapple to damage, or render unable to move/speak/breathe/see. Can KO or render helpless by preventing breathing/movement for three rounds.

Ranged Attacks:
--Melee abilities can apply to ranged attacks unless it doesn't make sense.
--No 30' maximum on precision damage.
--Dex or (where appropriate) Str to attack and damage.

Responsive Attacks (AoOs and Readied Attacks):
--AoO requires save or lose provoking action.
--DCs to avoid AoOs (such as to tumble or cast defensively) increased by half BAB, or full BAB with Combat Reflexes.
--Readied attacks instead let you AoO with chosen trigger. Specific triggers make AoOs automatic threats.
--Bluff to distract can distract readied action.

Dragon Elite
2009-08-12, 05:01 PM
I like it.

Quellian-dyrae
2009-08-13, 09:39 PM
And the full version:


MAGIC SYSTEM CHANGES

Ally Acquiring Spells (summons, compulsions, animations, etc):

The Problem: Infinite loops, allies who are better casters than the caster itself, ally spamming, wasting spell slots on things that can't pull their weight at that CR, free XP cost payment...just a lot of issues.

The Solution:

Control Limits: Remove all previous limits on allies you can control at once (such as HD of undead). A character can have any number of allies controlled or summoned by magic and abilities. However, it can only actively control a number of allies with a total EL equal to its own CR - 2 (minimum EL 1) at any one time. Alternately, you can actively control a single ally of any EL by foregoing active control of all other allies. If this ally's EL is higher than your limit, you lose control at the end of the encounter in which you acquired the ally.

An ally is considered being actively controlled when both it and its controller are currently active in the same encounter. If you do not wish to actively control an ally in the same encounter as you, it acts based on how it was acquired:
--Mindless allies that simply follow your commands simply stand waiting for orders.
--Summoned creatures, shadow illusions, and other allies created from nothing or essentially nothing are dismissed.
--Compelled characters or called beings are no longer under your control and can act as they are normally inclined.

For spells that summon, call, animate, or otherwise create allies where they didn't exist before, you can acquire a maximum EL of allies with one casting equal to half again the spell level, rounded down, drawn from whatever list of creatures the spell would normally allow.

Ally Limits: Any spells or spell-like abilities, or supernatural abilities duplicating spells, that normally entail a costly material component or XP cost require you to pay the XP cost, or XP equal to 1/5 the component cost, for your allies to use the ability.

Allies cannot use any spells or spell-like abilities, or supernatural abilities duplicating spells, that are higher level than the highest level spell you can cast, or that do not appear on your class spell list.

You must expend a prepared spell or spell slot of equal level whenever one of your allies casts a spell or uses a spell-like ability.

Any allies being actively controlled by your allies count against your limit of actively controlled allies.

Augments:

The Problem: Can be cherry-pick-stacked until a caster can out-melee a fighter. Characters who rely heavily on augments become too powerful when fully prepared, and completely useless when unprepared or when their augments are dispelled. On the flip side, if you go and try to augment up during battle, there's every chance that the fight will be over before your augments are in place! If these are round/level augments, you've basically just burned spell slots.

The Solution: All spells that directly boost ability scores or combat stats, or that provide a miss chance (including mirror image), without replacing or improving equipment, are considered combat augments. Combat augments have an immediate action casting time. If the spells have an expensive material component or XP cost, it is removed. As long as the spell is prepared (or there is a spell slot of the appropriate level available), the caster may cast a lesser version of the spell without expending it; the spell only lasts for one round. If the character chooses to cast the spell fully, it lasts for the duration of the encounter that it was cast in. All combat augments can be used either personally or on allies, with a range based on their previous duration: augments that lasted for rounds are touch range (or areas centered on the caster, if they affect multiple targets); duration in minutes are close range; tens of minutes medium; hours long. Combat augments cannot have their durations increased, and cannot be made into permanent items.

Temporary hit points do not follow these rules; they are only gained when casting a spell fully, and are instantaneous, but fade after an hour. They do not stack.

Battlefield Control:

The Problem: Can often neutralize characters without any opportunity for defense. In the case of damaging versions, usually don't inflict enough damage to control the battlefield properly (jumping through a wall of fire or blade barrier should be epic, daring, heroic, and probably foolish, not the immediately obvious and logical option).

The Solution: Any spell that affects an area for a duration and impedes movement allows a Reflex saving throw to any target within the area when it is cast. If the save succeeds, the character ignores the movement impediment (but not other effects) as long as it leaves as quickly as possible. If the character leaves within one round, or spends all available actions attempting to leave until the round that it does so successfully, it avoids the impediment entirely. If it lingers, it suffers the normal impediment. A character who blunders into such an effect after it has been placed receives no such benefit.

Any spell that causes an area to deal damage to those passing through it deal triple damage to characters who purposefully enter their areas.

Blanket Immunities:

The Problem: Single spells invalidate entire builds.

The Solution: Spells that give blanket immunity to a large category of effects (Death Ward, Freedom of Movement, True Seeing, Mind Blank, etc) instead give effectively SR 15 + Caster Level against those effects, which applies even to SR: No spells and supernatural abilities.

Special Mention: Freedom of Movement lets you ignore natural things that hamper movement (such as water), applies the above SR against magical effects that impede movement, and counts as a skill spell keyed towards Escape Artist for purposes of escaping grapples, bonds, and the like (so, you substitute primary ability modifier for Dex, caster level for ranks, and can take 10 even if you normally couldn't). It also lowers the opponent's size bonus to its Grapple check by your caster level, to a minimum of +0.

Special Mention: True Seeing lets you make a save to disbelieve illusions simply by seeing them, and acts as a skill spell for purposes of Spot checks, but only for stealth and disguises created or augmented by magic. Remove its material component cost.

Direct Damage:

The Problem: Use up a limited resource to do the same thing everyone else can do all day, and often less effectively.

The Solution: A known or prepared spell that deals instantaneous hit point damage can be used to a lesser effect at will. When so used, the spell loses any non-damage secondary effects and metamagic effects and functions at its minimum caster level. In addition, if it affects an area, the area is halved unless the caster is at the caster level that would normally reach its damage cap. The caster may cast the spell "fully" (expending the spell slot), and in doing so, raises its damage die by one step if the spell is 1st-2nd level, two steps if 3rd-4th, three steps if 5th-6th, four steps if 7th-8th, and five steps if 9th (past d12, just give +1 damage per die), affects the full area, and removes its damage cap. A prepared caster cannot cast the lesser version of the spell once it has been expended; spontaneous casters cannot cast the lesser version of any spell in a spell level they no longer have spell slots for (unless they still have higher-level slots).

Special Mention: Warlocks, dragonfire adepts, and other classes that have at-will, scaling direct damage abilities have those increased to 1d6 damage per level, plus their primary ability modifier.

Healing:

The Problem: Just all over the place in usefulness. In-combat healing is almost pointless unless you have Heal. Out of combat healing can be too easy (depending on how fast-paced a game you want, though, that can be a good thing). Status removal can really make a single foe with a unique attack form a mere inconvenience, and invalidate any sort of "The {important person} has been afflicted with {ailment}" quest, but when you're getting swarmed by wraiths, there just aren't enough restorations to go around.

The Solution: Cure Light heals 2 damage per caster level and is an immediate action (does not prevent death if used after a blow brings you below -10), Cure Moderate heals 4 and is a swift action, Cure Serious 6 and move, Cure Critical 8 and standard. In any case, you can only cast one Cure spell per round. All Cure spells add your primary ability modifier to damage healed (remember, items have ability scores equal to 10 + the SL). You can cast a lesser version without expending the spell, which always uses a standard action, halves the healing per level, and rather than actual healing, provides temporary hit points that cannot bring the target above its full normal hit point total. Inflict spells follow the same rules, but allow a Will save to negate (as do cure spells when used on undead). Other effects that heal dice of damage heal a number of points per level equal to 1.5 times the spell level, or half that if it affects multiple targets (round up), can't be cast as lesser versions, and have their normal casting time. For example, a Crusader's Martial Spirit stance would be unchanged (it doesn't heal dice of damage), but Crusader's Strike would heal 2/level + Str modifier, and Rallying Strike 5/level + Str modifier.

The Vigor line provides double the fast healing, but rather than lasting 10 + level rounds, lasts primary ability modifier + level rounds.

For a spell to remove a condition or effect, it requires a caster level check, DC 10 + the caster level of the effect (for effects without a caster level, use the CR of the monster that inflicted it, or replace it with the normal save DC). You may substitute your Heal ranks for your caster level if you wish. If you fail the check by five or more points, you cannot try again. You may cast a lesser version of these spells as well, which treats your caster level check as if you had rolled an automatic 6.

Metamagic:

The Problem: Stacking metamagic reductions.

The Solution: Each metamagic reduction applies once to any given spell, and cannot reduce the total metamagic cost below +1. So a 10th level incantatrix with Easy Metamagic and Arcane Thesis can have a total of -3 to the metamagic cost. It could quicken a spell for +1 SL, or quicken and maximize for +4, for example.

Polymorphing:

The Problem: Cherry picking. Can be easily used to cover weaknesses such as physical dump stats.

The Solution: When you use a polymorph effect, you can choose one of the following styles. If not using a spell, use your class level or (for a monster) CR as the caster level, and half that amount as the spell level.

Cosmetic Polymorph: Choose a form allowed by the spell. You take on the appearance of that form. If you wish to appear as a specific individual, this effect lets you take 20 on your Disguise check. You gain the assumed form's space, reach, and size modifier to attack rolls, AC, weapon damage, Hide, Grapple, and similar checks (your ability scores and natural armor are unchanged). Your weapons become the new form's natural weapons or change shape as you choose, but cause the same damage and use the same attack routine. Likewise, your armor changes to the new form's natural armor or changes shape as you choose, but provides the same defensive value. A tactical polymorph lasts for one hour per caster level. Any polymorph effect can produce a Cosmetic Polymorph.

Strategic Polymorph: As Cosmetic Polymorph, but you also add your caster level to one skill per spell level of the effect. You can trade in a buffed skill for a feat the chosen form possesses. A strategic polymorph lasts for ten minutes per caster level. Only polymorph effects of second level and higher can produce a Strategic Polymorph.

Versatile Polymorph: As Strategic Polymorph, but you also gain any exceptional special attacks or qualities of the assumed form that are based on physical traits, as well as its senses and movement modes. Abilities based on items, mental traits, states of emotion, and the like are not gained. DR is limited to your caster level. Fast Healing and Regeneration are limited to the spell level. Save DCs are calculated as if saving against the Polymorph effect. A versatile polymorph lasts for one minute per caster level. Only polymorph effects of third level and higher can produce a Versatile Polymorph.

Combat Polymorph: As Versatile Polymorph, but you can also add an enhancement bonus to your physical ability scores or your natural armor. You gain two points of enhancement per caster level, and can provide a maximum enhancement to a single score equal to twice the spell level of the polymorph effect. A combat polymorph lasts for one round per caster level. Only polymorph effects of fourth level and higher can produce a Combat Polymorph.

(No) Save-or-X:

The Problem: Can end entire encounters, or accomplish nothing. Spells that merely debilitate are simply inefficient compared to those that neutralize.

The Solution: If the spell kills or otherwise permanently neutralizes the target (Finger of Death, Flesh to Stone, Baleful Polymorph), there is a -4 to the DC. If it renders the target helpless or under the caster's persistent control (Hold Person, Dominate Person, Sleep), -3. If it prevents the target from taking standard actions, or provides the caster with limited control (Stinking Cloud, Daze, Suggestion), -2. If it restricts the target's actions, or invalidates certain actions a large amount of the time (Blindness, Slow, Confusion), -1. If it simply penalizes stats, use the normal DC.

A character who makes its save is still briefly hampered by the spell, taking a -1 penalty, plus an extra -1 per two spell levels, on attack rolls, damage rolls, and the save DCs of its spells or abilities, for one round.

A character can delay the effect of any spell or ability that imposes a condition or penalty. This is very taxing. Each round of the delay results in nonlethal damage equal to the effect's save DC (or what the DC would be, if it dosn't allow a save) - 5. If the character cannot pay that cost without bringing its nonlethal damage above its hit points, the effect applies. Effects cannot be suppressed after they have applied. Delayed effects are considered active and may be dispelled. If the caster is killed or incapacitated before the effect applies, it ends harmlessly.

Skill Spells:

The Problem: A 3rd level wizard can pick locks better than a 20th level rogue. Among other things.

The Solution: Any spell that basically duplicates a skill use, lets you use your primary casting ability modifier in place of your normal ability modifier, and your caster level in place of your ranks. These spells all last 10 minutes per caster level, and do not allow you to retry the skill check even if you normally could, but do let you take 10 even if you normally couldn't. They also generally let you use skills that would normally take some time as a standard action. Spells that provide a bonus of +10 or more to a skill instead treat you as taking 20 with that skill.

Special Mention: Invisibility lets you take 20 on Hide checks and hide even without cover or while being observed, and without penalties for moving or attacking (though attacking still breaks the spell if it normally would), as long as the observer does not possess See Invisibility, True Seeing, etc.

Time Stopping:

The Problem: Lets you cover your opponents in lasting area spells or do delayed spell nukes to force massive damage or debilitation when opponents can't counter.

The Solution: While using a time stopping effect (Time Stop, Temporal Acceleration, etc), you are not simply moving really fast, you are outside of the time stream. This means you can take the appropriate number of rounds worth of actions instantly. However, no time actually passes, so durations do not count down. You may bring up to one additional character per three caster levels within medium range outside of the time stream with you, allowing them to also act during these rounds. Unwilling targets can resist being brought out of the time stream with a Will save. Actions performed while outside of the time stream can only target people or items that are themselves outside of the time stream. Actions that last on a duration or act on a delay remain outside of the time stream unless they are active on a character who was, itself, outside of it.



COMBAT SYSTEM CHANGES

Action-based Movement:

The Problem: Moving isn't fluid enough, especially things like running and charging. Perhaps more importantly, if I'm a fighter trying to attack or defend a vulnerable wizard, and that wizard decides to step back out of my reach so he can cast without me skewering him or my enemy tries to circle exactly five feet away from me to get at the mage, the proper response is to step in and swing, not to stand there uselessly. To be fair, I know it's largely for simplicity, and that's fine, but it creates enough of an issue for fighters trying to do their job that I'm addressing it anyway.

The Solution: A character who spends a move action to move can move its speed over the course of the round, when it wishes. It may choose to move simultaneously with another character's action. The character can use the following modes of movement along any part of its movement:
Withdraw - Half speed, you do not provoke an attack of opportunity from any opponent you are moving away from (you still provoke attacks from opponents you are moving around or trying to move past). If the opponent interrupts your movement to follow you, you may make an attack of opportunity.
Run - Twice normal speed (1.5 times in heavy armor, 2.5 times with Run feat). You lose your Dexterity modifier to AC while running, and take a -4 penalty to resist Trips and Bull Rushes. If the last action you took on your turn was to run, these penalties continue until the start of your next turn. If you attack after running at least ten feet, you get +2 to hit, but -2 AC until the start of your next turn. You may make a single attack at the end of a run as a swift action (if you have pounce, you can instead make a full attack with this single swift action). Each change of direction while running costs 5' of movement (taken from your actual speed, not from the quadrupled speed for running), and you cannot run over difficult terrain. Bonuses that normally apply to charging apply to the first attack made after a run.

A character with the spring attack feat does not provoke attacks of opportunity for either approaching or moving away from an opponent, and may make an AoO against a foe who interrupts its movement away to follow it, or against a foe who it attacked in the previous round who tries to enter a square it threatens. It still provokes for trying to move past an opponent, however.

Full Attacks:

The Problem: Greatly cuts down the mobility of characters. Moving up and making a single attack, at high levels, basically just ensures getting full attacked in response (and probably results in an AoO on top of it, with the prevalence of large foes).

The Solution: In addition to the normal method, you can turn a standard attack into a full attack by spending a swift action.

Grappling:

The Problem: Too complex and unclear. Easily escaped with a well-placed dimension door.

The Solution: To grapple, make a melee touch attack which provokes an AoO. If you hit, roll an opposed Grapple check. If you succeed, you are grappling.

Grappling characters lose Dex to AC against foes they are not grappling.

Taking any actions in a grapple requires an opposed grapple check in addition to any normal checks required. You can substitute Escape Artist for a physical action, or Concentration for a mental action.

In place of an attack, you can with a successful grapple check: deal unarmed damage or for one round render an opponent unable to do one of the following: move, breathe and/or speak, or see. If you render the opponent unable to move for three rounds it becomes helpless, if you render it unable to breathe for three rounds it loses consciousness.

In place of an attack, you can make a Grapple or Escape Artist check to escape a grapple. If the opponent is preventing you from moving, breathing and/or speaking, or seeing, you instead escape one of those conditions.

Ranged Attacks:

The Problem: Often necessary to effectively fight foes with ranged capabilities of their own, especially flying opponents, but unless heavily specialized (and sometimes, even then), will be much weaker than melee attacks, often to the point of being virtually useless.

The Solution: Anything that would normally work on melee attacks? Unless it would make absolutely no sense, let it work on ranged attacks. And abolish the 30' maximum. And let people use Dex for attack and damage with ranged weapons, with the option of using Strength for thrown weapons and composite bows. Treat ranged weapons as one-handed for appropriate purposes. The ranged weapons will still probably be somewhat worse (rogue won't be two weapon fighting with its bow, fighter will be using one-handed power attack and strength modifiers, bow probably won't be as heavily enchanted), but at least you'll be able to mount an effective ranged defense. Also, giant boulders won't be laughable. Not much you can do for animals and other monsters that really can't get much for ranged attacks, though the really big and strong ones ::cough::tarrasque::cough:: could probably get a nice "throw the scenery" ability and be done with it.

Responsive Attacks (AoOs and Readied Attacks):

The Problem: At high levels, often can't cause sufficient damage to make them credible preventative measures. Often too easily avoided at high levels.

The Solution: Anyone hit by an attack of opportunity must make a Fortitude save or Concentration check (DC 10 + damage dealt + the spell level if any) or lose the action that provoked the response. If moving provoked the response, the character loses the rest of its movement for the round, but does enter the square it was trying to enter when it provoked. The DC of Tumble checks to avoid AoOs or Concentration checks to cast on the defensive increase by half the attacker's BAB (to avoid AoOs from or cast on the defensive against multiple attackers, make a single check using the highest BAB and adding +1 to the DC per extra foe). A character with Combat Reflexes uses its full BAB, rather than half.

When a character readies an attack, it may choose a specific action as a general trigger (anyone who casts a spell, for example), or it can choose a specific initiator or target as a specific trigger (anyone who attacks me or when the blackguard moves). If you choose a general trigger, you can make an AoO any time someone in your reach (or within one range increment, for ranged attacks) performs the triggering action. If you choose a specific trigger, these attacks of opportunity are automatically threats. Normal methods of avoiding AoOs do not apply against readied attacks. Readying other actions (such as charges, strikes, and so on) does not provide these benefits. Readying actions of any type does not change your initiative count (delaying still does).

A Bluff check to create a distraction can distract a readied action; readied attacks and other physical offenses let you add your BAB to the Sense Motive check, and readied spells or supernatural actions allow you to substitute Concentration for Sense Motive if you wish.

HamsterOfTheGod
2009-08-13, 10:25 PM
Not bad but you have to see how they play out. For ex, your Wiz 1 can be expected have a sleep or color spray of DC10-12 not DC14.

However you still allow for some combos with Arcane Thesis and such that let low level casters one shot with damage. For ex, Arcane Thesis (ray of frost) + Fell Drain or Arcane Thesis(lesser orb of fire) + Sudden Maximize.

Also, there are some melee builds like the uber-charger or hurler that just use melee multipliers to get INSANE amounts of damage. Are you allowing those?

Also, are you allowing Natural Spell for druids because with all the other caster nerfs, that one feat sort of favors druids even more.

Quellian-dyrae
2009-08-13, 10:57 PM
Yeah, I didn't really bother too much with the various ways of causing massive damage. I was focusing more on preventing certain broad choices from invalidating other options, than trying to prevent optimization within any given option.

As far as Natural Spell...could have been more clear here, but basically, the polymorph rules don't remove or replace existing capabilities, so you can cast while wild shaped as a matter of course. I don't see casting while polymorphed to be that big an issue if polymorphing itself is balanced (although it may still be a bit too strong compared to equal-level augmentations, I may have to revisit that).

DragoonWraith
2009-08-13, 11:06 PM
It sounds generally decent, several good ideas.

I don't like the "summons can't use spells that you can't use yourself" limitation, though. Yeah, Gating in Solars is abuse, but making good use of SLAs is pretty much the only way the Summon Monster is at all useful. You kind of ruin the Malconvoker there...

Quellian-dyrae
2009-08-13, 11:10 PM
You know what, you reminded me of something that I should have added. Half the point of the active control limit was to make Summon Monster a bit more useful by letting you summon allies that are somewhat more EL appropriate. Will go back and add that.

Never mind, it's in there. Yeah, so, my theory is that being able to summon more/more powerful allies should make the spells useful, without handing out access to spells that are beyond your level to cast.

DragoonWraith
2009-08-13, 11:34 PM
Wait, is it "spells that a caster of my level could cast" or "spells actually on my list that I myself know"? I read it as the latter.

I reread the summoning section, and now I'm just confused. I'd consider rewording it, I don't really understand, err... most of it.

Quellian-dyrae
2009-08-13, 11:36 PM
Spells on your class list, that are of a spell level that you can cast.

EDIT: Clarified that in summary, and also put in a couple other points that got lost in the translation.

EDIT 2: Okay, will see if I can word that better.

erikun
2009-08-13, 11:49 PM
Quick commentary. I'm just replying with likely consequences, not really sure if that's your intent.

Ally-Acquiring Spells (Summons, Compulsions, Animations, etc):

Still doesn't stop, say, a Druid from summoning a unicorn and having it use Heal on everyone. Doesn't stop someone with flooding the battlefield with allied summons (ie. lots of celestials, elementals, undead) which won't attack the party by default.

Augments:

How long is "one encounter"? Would a buff that normally lasts 1 round end up lasting through a 2-hour war? Would a 1 hour/level spell last only 3 rounds if the fight ended then? Can the 1-round spells be used as a swift action, on defense?

Battlefield Control:

So you can make a reflex save to leave a Prismatic Sphere on your next turn? What about entering?

So dropping an Acid Fog in front of enemies means they take 6d6 damage if they try running through it? 12d6 for Incendiary Cloud? 6d6+30 for jumping through a Wall of Fire?

Blanket Immunities:

So rouges can overcome SR to sneak-attack someone wearing Fortification armor?

Direct Damage:

Free Ray of Frost at will? Tossing around free Fireballs at level 7+? Nice.

Healing:

Might want to look over this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=120550) for possibly side-effects for "free" magical healing.

Metamagic:

Makes sense, or just bad metamagic reducers. :smalltongue:

(No) Save-or-X:

So you can still Finger of Death someone, only they can take subdual damage to avoid dying? I'm not sure if that's much of a penality to the spell, though.

Skill Spells:

I would recommend "full skill ranks for your caster level", possibly using the primary stat for the ability. The way you've worded it, I'm not sure if a 10th level Wizard with cross-class Disable Device gets +10 skill ranks (from the spell) or +16 skill ranks (6 from cross-class, 10 from level).

The idea that Invisibility doesn't make you invisible is... odd. Perhaps reflavor it to "people will notice the area around you unless you make the hide check"?

Time Stopping:

The most common use for Time Stop (that I've seen) is to heal/buff/Contingency without interruption. I'm not quite sure how that interacts with your options - nerfing it into unusability isn't much better than just removing it.

Action-based Movement:

So "withdraw" basically replaces the 5-foot step?

Full Attacks:

Why not just "can move and full attack in the same round" assuming that's all they do? I'm not quite sure why move/full attack would prevent you from AoO or quickened spells.

Grapples:

So you can cast spells while grappling?

Ranged Attacks:

Is there a maximum range to sneak attack? I would assume close range, unless you like the idea of a rogue archer dealing +10d6 at 1000 feet away.

Responsive Attacks (AoOs and Readied Attacks):

So.... you need to hit a higher AC/have a better saving throw against an AoO? I would think that being hit with a Fireball as soon as you enter a room would be harder to avoid, not easier.

That, and fighters already have a hard enough time controlling the battlefield, given that most monsters can walk by them with little consequence. While I appreciate removing Chain Tripper Abuse, I'm not sure if this helps.

Quellian-dyrae
2009-08-14, 12:16 AM
Ally-Acquiring Spells (Summons, Compulsions, Animations, etc):

Still doesn't stop, say, a Druid from summoning a unicorn and having it use Heal on everyone. Doesn't stop someone with flooding the battlefield with allied summons (ie. lots of celestials, elementals, undead) which won't attack the party by default.

Um...I believe it does. If a druid summons a unicorn and has it use Heal, the druid has to have access to 7th level spells (Heal on the druid list), and must expend a 7th level spell slot. So, you get the action advantage, but not a spell beyond your power or a free spell.

And, if you flood the battlefield with more summons than your EL - 2, the excess ones vanish.


Augments:

How long is "one encounter"? Would a buff that normally lasts 1 round end up lasting through a 2-hour war? Would a 1 hour/level spell last only 3 rounds if the fight ended then? Can the 1-round spells be used as a swift action, on defense?

What counts as an encounter is kinda up to the DM...same rule as martial adepts use, I figure. The hour/level spell would indeed only last 3 rounds; the point is to replace the durations. Longer lasting spells get better ranges (although admittedly, some more work could probably be done there...the augment thing was kinda thrown together). And yes, I believe I set it so that they are immediate actions.


Battlefield Control:

So you can make a reflex save to leave a Prismatic Sphere on your next turn? What about entering?

So dropping an Acid Fog in front of enemies means they take 6d6 damage if they try running through it? 12d6 for Incendiary Cloud? 6d6+30 for jumping through a Wall of Fire?

They could make a Reflex save to ignore whatever movement penalties the prismatic sphere resulted in if they left immediately, but would still take damage. As to the others, yep. If someone drops that kinda stuff in front of you, charging through it probably isn't too smart.


Blanket Immunities:

So rouges can overcome SR to sneak-attack someone wearing Fortification armor?

Hmm...I hadn't really been thinking about crit/precision damage immunity. I suppose that would be a valid interpretation. Which leaves the question: is that good or bad? Huh.


Direct Damage:

Free Ray of Frost at will? Tossing around free Fireballs at level 7+? Nice.

Well, free fireballs that never do more than 5d6, lose any metamagic you apply, and have their area halved until level 10, but otherwise yeah.


Healing:

Might want to look over this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=120550) for possibly side-effects for "free" magical healing.

The free healing can only be used within one round of being injured...and I completely forgot to add a stipulation so people can't do one point of damage to themselves then free heal. Whoops. Will have to fix that...temp hit points...the free one should give temp hit points.


Metamagic:

Makes sense, or just bad metamagic reducers. :smalltongue:

That IS another option::grin::


(No) Save-or-X:

So you can still Finger of Death someone, only they can take subdual damage to avoid dying? I'm not sure if that's much of a penality to the spell, though.

And if they kill or incapacitate you before they die, or get a dispel or death ward, they won't die. But yeah, I was aiming to keep the spell useful, while removing some of the "and the BBEG rolls a natural 1, good game everyone, time for loot" factor.


Skill Spells:

I would recommend "full skill ranks for your caster level", possibly using the primary stat for the ability. The way you've worded it, I'm not sure if a 10th level Wizard with cross-class Disable Device gets +10 skill ranks (from the spell) or +16 skill ranks (6 from cross-class, 10 from level).

The idea that Invisibility doesn't make you invisible is... odd. Perhaps reflavor it to "people will notice the area around you unless you make the hide check"?

You do use primary stat. And yes, ten ranks; the spell lets you use caster level in place of ranks (meaning, actual skill characters who focus on the skill are three ranks ahead of you), and substitute your primary ability modifier for the normal modifier.

For invisibility...I kinda saw it more as redefining the benefits of being invisible, than it not making you invisible.


Time Stopping:

The most common use for Time Stop (that I've seen) is to heal/buff/Contingency without interruption. I'm not quite sure how that interacts with your options - nerfing it into unusability isn't much better than just removing it.

You can still heal/buff/contingency as normal (I believe the summary left out some bits about durations still applying if directly on a character who was outside the time stream...I'll put that back in). Now you can also pull your allies out of the time stream to heal/buff them, or pull certain enemies out (Will negates) to fight them without letting their allies help them. However, you cannot fill the field with Acid Fogs or Delayed Blast Fireballs.


Action-based Movement:

So "withdraw" basically replaces the 5-foot step?

Sort of, although you couldn't, say, withdraw five feet forward to get inside a foe's reach to attack.


Full Attacks:

Why not just "can move and full attack in the same round" assuming that's all they do? I'm not quite sure why move/full attack would prevent you from AoO or quickened spells.

Could work just as well, but this method maks it a bit more favorable for standard melee types as opposed to, say, ToB characters, who already have things they might want to do with their swift actions.


Grapples:

So you can cast spells while grappling?

If you make a Grapple or Concentration check opposed by the enemy's grapply check.


Ranged Attacks:

Is there a maximum range to sneak attack? I would assume close range, unless you like the idea of a rogue archer dealing +10d6 at 1000 feet away.

Yeah I wasn't really too concerned about it. One range increment might be good.::Shrugs::


Responsive Attacks (AoOs and Readied Attacks):

So.... you need to hit a higher AC/have a better saving throw against an AoO? I would think that being hit with a Fireball as soon as you enter a room would be harder to avoid, not easier.

That, and fighters already have a hard enough time controlling the battlefield, given that most monsters can walk by them with little consequence. While I appreciate removing Chain Tripper Abuse, I'm not sure if this helps.

Um...not quite sure what you mean here. Unless I did something really wrong, those rules should be making AoOs and readied actions better for warriors, not worse.

Omegonthesane
2009-08-14, 07:01 AM
If I were you I'd find some other way to balance summons that doesn't involve XP costs in any way, shape, or form. XP costs are basically a "buy now pay later" deal, power now for not levelling up when you were meant to later. But there's no guarantee that the character will be being played when the bill is due.

I'd make it that you pay hit points for summoning - buy now, pay now. Maybe you can think of better. The easy solution would as always be to ban Gate outright - even making it a DC 100 Epic spell would just mean people are broken in high-level Epic rather than broken in normal gameplay. Which probably wouldn't change much... :smalltongue:

Quellian-dyrae
2009-08-14, 01:32 PM
The summary might not make this incredibly clear, I'll go back and edit it, but what that's basically saying is, if an ally casts a spell or uses an SLA with an XP cost (or that normally has one), you must pay the XP cost. Expensive material component, you must pay XP.

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not a huge fan of XP costs in any case (I like the characters to all advance evenly). I'm just using the system that exists for costly spells. Really, though, semi-permanent hit point loss (say, until next level) would be a good replacement for it. Would keep advancement the same, make it clear that you're using magic that is seriously draining, and would actually impose a bit of a lasting penalty. You could even make it fully permanent for item creation, and have various permanent or semi-permanent costs for different types of wishes, depending on how permanent their effects are...

Omegonthesane
2009-08-14, 04:09 PM
I was thinking less "long term penalty" and more "make the powerful spells a really dangerous tactical choice for the caster". For flavour reasons - and only flavour reasons - I'd advocate reversible age increases as a result of such magic, too, with only penalties if someone is stupid enough to cast themselves into a new age category before healing up.

Preferably that would scale to the maximum lifespan of the caster so elves are hit too. However, it's just a flavour idea - hence the emphasis on it being reversible with level appropriate magic.