Second of the Seven - Kujinshi (Gish help)

[elliott20]

So, I think I'm pretty much done with Dantag the ubercharger. (Thanks to everyone who gave me input on it. I'm still very new to this kind of thing and so the help was appreciated)

I want to start working on the second of the Seven, the goblin swordsman Kujinshi.

The keys with him is that he has the power to do various kinds of energy drain attacks as well as him being a decent swordsman on top of that. (And of course, he's a goblin)

I kind of like him as that, since I think most of my players will recognize him by his iconic moves.

So I've been looking through the classes to see which one will get me the abilities I need to pull this off.

So far, the best candidate for the soul drain seems to be the all mighty energy drain, (2d4 negative levels with no save is nothing to sneeze at) but the only people that get this are wizards. While I'm not opposed to writing him up as a high level wizard, wizards have the ability to do so much more than just that it would make him one of the toughest opponents to fight.

so I guess I might just put that aside for now.

The closest thing I came across so far is the duskblade with enervation as kind of a built in gish which might work well. But enervation is... well... it just lacks the umph I'm looking for. I was thinking maybe I can fortify it with something from Libris Mortis but the help I can get from that is limited.

So... anybody have any ideas how I can best approach this?

[PinkysBrain]

Well, there is the Life Drinker (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#lifeDrinker) ... a really nasty weapon. You do have to find some way to give him immunity to energy drain to use it effectively though.

Lets of course not forget about one of the best PrCs ever ... the soul eater (BoVD).

A Soul eater with Necrotic Focus (Libris Mortis) weapons is probably your best bet.

PS. a ridiculous build I once made :

ADIB, the soul-eater

Non psionic Thri-Kreen, LA+1

1 monstrous humanoid 1 - MWF
2 monstrous humanoid 2
3 artificer 1 - alertness
4 artificer 2
5 artificer 3
6 artificer 4 - weapon focus(bite), extend spell
7 artificer 5
8 artificer 6
9 artificer 7 - open
10 artificer 8 - persistent spell
11 fighter 1 - IMWF
12 soul eater 1 - open
13 soul eater 2
14 soul eater 3
15 soul eater 4 - open
16 soul eater 5
17 soul eater 6
18 soul eater 7 - GMWF
19 soul eater 8

Important items :
Soulfire armor (BoED)
1 small Life-Drinker (DMG)
5 tiny Life-Drinkers
Normal metamagic rod of chaining (CAr)
Sets of boots of temporal acceleration (XPH)
Spare hands belt (2 hands, MoE)

At the start of the day ADIB gets on his persistent wraithstrike, unfettered heroism and powers his spare hands belt with 2 3rd level infusions.

When combat starts ADIB activates his boots of temporal acceleration, chains weapon augmentation to give all his Life-Drinkers necrotic focus and uses his remaining move&full action to leisurely walk up to his victim. ADIB then attacks at BAB (taking into account MWF & weapon-size penalties) :
+13/+11/+11/+11/+11/+11/+8/+6/+6/+6/+6/+6/+3/+1/+1/+1/+1/+1/-2/+12

In the first round ADIB also takes a -2 for being shaken.

If all attacks hit ADIB inflicts 19 * 4 + 2 = 78 negative levels.

With haste 82.

If you allow off-hand weapons of speed to get extra attacks then with a second chained weapon augmentation 25 * 4 + 2 = 102 negative levels, but even with the lousy attack bonuses Im going to go out on a limb and say it is overkill.

There are still options like form-of-doom (XPH), giraillon's arms (MoI), arm's of plenty (LoM) and rapidstrike (Dr) open to be used. Also there might be forms with 4 arms suitable for a persistent draconic polymorph. Marilith almost works, but getting weapons suitable for a large size is a bit risky given dispelling (also she is buggy, she should have the enhanced multiweapon fighting ability to explain her attack bonuses).

[Doc Roc]

Hey Soul Eater, Hey necrotic focus weapon.

[elliott20]

102 negative levels!!! holy zombie galore!!!

Life-Drinker, here I come. (will have to do more research on the soul eater PrC though, since I don't have the BoVD)

though, I'm not quite sure I like having his entire schtick be tied to a single piece of equipment. Of course, now that I'm reading over the soul-eater PrC threads (still can't find the stat block on that) it seems like the soul-eater is basically an energy drain specialist. That I think will work well with this guy.

As for finding a way to be immune to energy drain... what if I just make him an undead?

[T.G. Oskar]

Oh snap! Is it me, or is that Kujinshi of the Seven Heroes of Romancing Saga 2?

Yeah, it must be. Unfortunately, I don't seem to be well acquainted with any of them. In either case...

Since Kujinshi seems to be a fan of draining effects, turn him into a Vampire, and waive the weaknesses. That should give him a method of Energy Drain. Also, you can go the way of Arcane Thesis - Split Ray - Twinned Enervation, since the drain effects aren't permanent. That should give him some methods of energy drain.

He can use techniques and Dark Magic (this is SaGa, after all: it has both techniques and specific schools of magic), so you should be capable of making him use both maneuvers (specifically Shadow Hand maneuvers) and also a good load of Necromancy and magic with the [Evil], [Shadow], or [Darkness] descriptors. This will evidently make him a Wizard (or Dread Necromancer), because of all those spells.

To mix it all up, you need to balance initiator levels and spell levels (and not use Jade Phoenix Mage, since it's pretty much the entire opposite of what Kujinshi is meant to be) so that you can get a variety of maneuvers while keeping strong spells. The techniques are not as important as the spells, though: some Diamond Mind and Shadow Hand spells are useful, specifically those that deal with cold or enfeebling. As for spells, which should be your top priority, they should be either draining spells, cold-spells and probably some Shadow or Darkness spells. Mostly, find ways to get Wall of Ice, Orb of Cold, perhaps through Shadow Conjuration/Evocation, and any charm spell that can be shaped as a visible effect (and you call it Ghost Light, just in case)

Aside from that, I don't see a way to deal with him class-wise, aside from Swordsage X/Wizard X/Eldritch Knight X, perhaps a specialist. Attempt leap-frogging the Swordsage levels so that you get decent maneuvers, while doing it smart enough to get a good amount of spells.

[elliott20]

Another Romancing Saga 2 fan on this site? AWESOME.

*high fives*

Yeah, it's exactly who you think he is. I'm in the middle of working up a whole RS2 setting, and have already got the board to help me create a Dantarg.

Now, let's take a look at the build... hmmm... actually going martial adept is not a bad idea for him, since multi-classing with a martial adept makes him more than the sum of his parts. But if I want to actually start dropping wizard class levels on him, (or dread necromancer, as the case may be) I think I would want to make sure he can get 9th level spells just so he can grab energy drain as his capstone ability. (and THEN twin ray that to kingdom come)

but that means he would need a total of 17 CL, which doesn't leave much room for his fighting classes... unless I can focus most of his attacks on touch-based attacks...

[T.G. Oskar]

Another Romancing Saga 2 fan on this site? AWESOME.

*high fives*

*high fives back*

Actually, more of a SaGa fan per se. Haven't played RS2, but played RS3, Saga Frontier 1 & II, RS: Minstrel Song, and even finished one of the eight characters of Unlimited SAGA (if you know what I mean, you can say I'm a pretty diehard fan)


Yeah, it's exactly who you think he is. I'm in the middle of working up a whole RS2 setting, and have already got the board to help me create a Dantarg.

Now, let's take a look at the build... hmmm... actually going martial adept is not a bad idea for him, since multi-classing with a martial adept makes him more than the sum of his parts. But if I want to actually start dropping wizard class levels on him, (or dread necromancer, as the case may be) I think I would want to make sure he can get 9th level spells just so he can grab energy drain as his capstone ability. (and THEN twin ray that to kingdom come)

but that means he would need a total of 17 CL, which doesn't leave much room for his fighting classes... unless I can focus most of his attacks on touch-based attacks...

Actually, you should notice something. Soul Steal is mostly a death spell, where you get instantly slain. The best idea would be to get a spell which not only kills your character regardless of level or anything (except with a saving throw), and that it gives you a massive bonus. Something on the lines of a huge-level Death Knell, or a Power Word: Kill combined with Greater Consumptive Field, cast at the same time. Something of that magnitude. Energy Drain can end up killing the character, but it's gonna be less dramatic than a single casting of a [Death] spell with an insanely high DC.

I'd say 7th level spells should be your key. With a deliberate use of Wizard and Eldritch Knight levels, you should be capable of missing around 4 levels. Those 4 levels should be left for Swordsage; perhaps a level of Fighter or a method of gaining all martial weapon proficiencies, since the EK strictly requires that. The idea is to leap-frog on martial adept levels to get higher-level maneuvers with the few slots you have readied. As well, you should get Shadow Hand and Diamond Mind maneuvers; the former for Kujinshi's build thematics and the latter for the game's general thematics (perhaps also Tiger Claw for Pouncing Charge, if possible). I'd say to think of Master of Nine, but the feat pre-reqs are deadly.

Just remember that Energy Drain *can* be gained through alternative means (you're the DM, you can fiat that one), in case you absolutely need to give him that ability.

Though, that depends... Either you can work a spell to damage or drain a lot of Constitution. Alternatively, if you're using the Vitality and Wound Points system, work a spell that damages all Wound Points if the saving throw fails.

[PinkysBrain]

BTW, a Duskblade/Spellsword who hits you with a spellstoring weapon releasing vampiric touch, while channeling 2-3 more vampiric touch spells through his class abilities (possibly with sudden maximize) will put the hurt on you.

[elliott20]

BTW, a Duskblade/Spellsword who hits you with a spellstoring weapon releasing vampiric touch, while channeling 2-3 more vampiric touch spells through his class abilities (possibly with sudden maximize) will put the hurt on you.
combine that with arcane strike, that can be a nice chunk of damage too.

okay, I think I have a rough idea of what I'm going to do. I'll try the Necromancer/Martial Adept build first, and if that doesn't work, maybe a duskblade that somehow tries to weasel into soul-eater.


(and in either case, a life-drinker will be part of the set up)

and yes, if you managed to finish a game of Unlimited Saga, you are truly a fan among fans.

though, I don't imagine RS2 being high on the list of games to play soon, what with it being strictly Japanese, never translated and all

[elliott20]

So last night, using HeroForge, I began trying to put together Kujinshi in earnest, but I came upon a couple snags.

I figured I would T. G. Oskar's idea and combine some of Pinky's elements together. Basically, instead of trying to shoot for energy drain, I go for greater consumptive field + desecrate + blasphemy as his modus operandi.

I figured that dread necromancer would be my best bet for his starter, what with his spell list basically being an amalgamation of all cleric, wizard, druid necromancy spells. (though I'm not sure if this includes the Destruction spell in the Death domain)

I'll take him to about 15th level or so, and pump the rest into swordsage. (no idea yet how to lower the ASF though... unless I can just make him rely solely on other forms of protection spells)

As for his race... well... that's part of the issue I'm having right now. I wanted to make him a goblin, but goblins all get that pesky -2 to CHA, which happens to be the dread necromancer's casting stat, so that became a no go. (plus, the only one that doesn't, the Bhuka, just doesn't feel quite right)

So now I considered maybe I should make him a different race instead. Kobold was my second choice, since I always liked the idea of a non-PC race suddenly becoming super powerful through magic. But the number of penalties they get to their physical stats just seem to make them poor gishs. (maybe I can just give him a rapier and finesse it though)

somehow, this just doesn't seem like an efficient approach. any more advice?

edit: oh yeah, I also decided to add an undead template to him. Thus far, necropolitan seems to be winning out.

[PinkysBrain]

You are not making a PC here ... a -2 to charisma isn't the end of the world.

A Forestkith goblin (MM3) doesn't have a charisma penalty and is CR1 with 1 class level BTW (it has LA, but that is irrelevant for NPCs).

[Eldariel]

Hmm, an alternative here: Swordsage/Shadow Sun Ninja 10 (slightly reflavoured to work for non-goods) could work out very well. Ki Focus weapon and you can deliver negative level hits with all your attacks in addition to having free access to the Shadow Hand discipline which has lots (well, most in the book anyways) of stat damage attacks of various kinds.

[T.G. Oskar]

As for his race... well... that's part of the issue I'm having right now. I wanted to make him a goblin, but goblins all get that pesky -2 to CHA, which happens to be the dread necromancer's casting stat, so that became a no go. (plus, the only one that doesn't, the Bhuka, just doesn't feel quite right)

So now I considered maybe I should make him a different race instead. Kobold was my second choice, since I always liked the idea of a non-PC race suddenly becoming super powerful through magic. But the number of penalties they get to their physical stats just seem to make them poor gishs. (maybe I can just give him a rapier and finesse it though)

Well, Pinky got it pretty much right: Charisma shouldn't be an issue. Heck, LA shouldn't be an issue either. I've envisioned Kujinshi as a Hobgoblin rather than a Goblin per se.

Besides, Kujinshi is meant to be ugly. Giving him too much Charisma and being a Dread Necromancer wouldn't make loads of sense. You can give him a very good Charisma, make him a Dread Necromancer, yet state that he's ugly as...erm, introduce reference, please.

You might want to check here for a rather close-up look at Kujinshi. (http://www.square-enix.co.jp/lov2/) Even though the name appears as "Kzinssie". Mostly, click on the characters of Romancing Saga II, then wait for the Flash to change to see him.

Also, Wagnas. Hope you have some brain bleach nearby. Full power, as well.

[elliott20]

!!! <3 !!!!

they made actual GOOD illustrations of them!! (huh, so wagnas is still drawn as a woman here... this is not going be another Capcom "Poison" situation, is it?)

Bookmarking now.

I kind of imagine Kujinshi to be someone who just has a very powerful presence, despite being horribly ugly. Hmm... maybe I need to go back to the drawing board and rethink him a little.