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Umael
2009-08-12, 10:59 AM
(Note: This thread defaults to D&D, but you can just as easily use any other RPG system you want.)

The title is fairly self-explanatory. I'm trying to come up with examples for BBEGs that represent the Seven Deadly Sins.

Because there is some question about which sins are actually the Seven Deadly Sins, for the purposes of this thread, let's consider the following:

Lust - aka, Extravagance, unrestrained excess
Gluttony - over-indulgence or over-consumption
Greed - Avarice, Covetousness
Sloth - being lazy or apathetic
Wrath - uncontrollable feelings of rage and hatred
Envy - insatiable desire, resenting another for something they themselves are lacking
Pride - Hubris, excessive love for self

For Lust, most people would think succubus, but I think that most of the demons would work just fine. After all, lust isn't just carnal lust, but bloodlust and battlelust as well (particularly for younger players and DMs). Any powerful demon who loves to torture, rape, and kill, even when it would not be wise to do so (tormenting a defeated foe in the middle of battle, for example) is a good example.

Gluttony is about hunger of somekind, of consuming more than you need. A vampire works well, especially if you play up the whole "need to feed" aspect. Undoubtably you can find various monsters that have an incredible appettite, such as the Tarrasque, but these are more forces of nature than BBEG.

When it comes to Greed, it's all about material material, and I can't think of any monster that is more obsessed with obtaining riches than a dragon.

Sloth would work well with one of the powerful undead, although any monster that seems content to sit around and do nothing for centuries would work well. The key part of Sloth is the idea of apathy, of a lack of caring, which is why something like a lich works very well indeed.

A lot of races have infamous racial hatred towards various groups, so it's just a matter of picking one to be the embodiment of Wrath. Plenty of choices, and since most people think of Wrath as someone raging, that brings to mind an orc barbarian, maybe a frenzied berserker or a member of the Eye of Gruumsh. As a sidenote, for a bit of variety, revenge can be a dish best served cold; make Wrath a high-level drow, a drider, or even an avatar of Lloth herself...

When I think of Envy, I think of a wretch so full of self-loathing that it lashes out at others for things they possess which it lacks. Someone who is ugly attacking and mutiliating someone who is beautiful just because they are beautiful is a perfect example. As with all of the Sins, there are a lot of choices, but after a bit of research, I'm going to go for the mind flayer. While I am sure that a lot of you won't agree that mind flayers fit the mold of a wretch, possibly even a creature with a low self-esteem, there seems to be a bit of psychological basis for my decision.

Pride. Hubris. The sin of loving one's self too much, presumably at the expense of others. There are lots of examples of Pride, both good and bad, bringing greatness and bringing downfall. Sports heroes, politicians, literary figures, movie stars, rock legends, lawyers, doctors, businessmen, all of these have ranks upon ranks those who rise, only to fall again. Pride is considered the greatest of folly, the sin who gives birth to all the other sins. Those who believe in their own greatness go on to do great things, but those who believe so much in their greatness that they are blinded to the cost of that greatness. Pride speaks to us more than any other sin, which is why I think that this sin has its best home with a human wizard*.

* - Please do not read too much into this. Yes, there are several other races that can work, and several other classes. But to telling "the laws of the universe to sit down and shut up" makes the wizard almost the quintessential definition of hubris, and given that everyone who plays is a human, there is a certain level of connection there.


Now by no means is this list definitive, even for me. I can change my mind at a moment's notice, and someone can show to me a better example any day of the week. In fact, if someone has a better example, they should list it.

Optimystik
2009-08-12, 11:28 AM
I agree with most of your choices (particularly vampires as gluttony, I honestly hadn't thought of that.) I do have a couple of suggestions though. :smallsmile:

For Envy, I'd go the FMA route and pick something that can steal people's shapes. An inhuman, soulless creature that longs to belong to an existing race, to the point that it would try and murder/impersonate a party member. I'm not sharp enough on D&D monsters to know exactly what that would be, but I'm sure there's a monster that could do that.

Mindflayers fit Sloth better, if you ask me. Telepathic dominance, then make a cadre of thralls do your work for you so you never have to lift a finger yourself. Or if you want to stick with the lich idea, compromise and make it an alhoon (Mindflayer lich.)

Pride/Vanity definitely means dragons. Even the good ones consider themselves the pinnacle of evolution, far superior to the lesser races. You could even keep it as a wizard or other caster that way.

This of course, leaves Greed open (assuming you want a different monster in each role.) This is a great spot for a human villain (or undead human, if you still want that lich.) I'd like the symbolism of (a) a human being the ultimate evil (the deadliest creature is man!) with a little divine assistance, of course, and (b) Greed being the head honcho since all the other 7DS are variations of greed.

Lust is greed for flesh/passion
Vanity is greed for attention/self
Envy is greed for others' attributes
Gluttony is greed for food
Wrath is greed for retribution
Sloth is greed for rest/inaction

Riffington
2009-08-12, 11:43 AM
I like that you've made pride (the cardinal sin, of which all others are pale copies) the human sin. You could of course go with elves or dragons or Asmodeus or whatever, but I like human. Besides, dragons belong with greed.

I think envy should be a lesser race. It is the sin of lower beings who wish that which their betters possess. I'd give it to orcs or goblins, leaving wrath to the drow.

I would really rather lust not be a demon. Lust is the least of all the sins, the one which is healthiest in moderation and properly-directed. Give it to the satyrs or other fae folk.

Optimystik
2009-08-12, 11:59 AM
I like that you've made pride (the cardinal sin, of which all others are pale copies) the human sin. You could of course go with elves or dragons or Asmodeus or whatever, but I like human. Besides, dragons belong with greed.

I still say Greed is the cardinal sin, for the reasons I listed above. Even Pride is a form of greed.


I would really rather lust not be a demon. Lust is the least of all the sins, the one which is healthiest in moderation and properly-directed. Give it to the satyrs or other fae folk.

Technically, healthiest in moderation would be gluttony. :smalltongue:


I would really rather lust not be a demon. Lust is the least of all the sins, the one which is healthiest in moderation and properly-directed. Give it to the satyrs or other fae folk.

A fae villain with lust is a brilliant idea, especially since everyone would be expecting a succubus. (Of course, they'd have the same alignment, so the players' preparations might be similar.)

Jack Zander
2009-08-12, 12:11 PM
Nymph is the obvious choice for lust.

Umael
2009-08-12, 12:15 PM
MASSIVE DISCLAIMER: These are just my opinions at the moment. This is certainly NOT to say that you CANNOT use monster A to represent Deadly Sin B.

Envy was a hard one to get. Although I can see a mind flayer representing Envy, that doesn't mean it has to be Envy.

As for why a lich is Sloth, I just figured that an ancient evil doing nothing for centuries, just lying there, completely apathetic to the world, makes it a better candidate than a mind flayer. Remember, the mind flayer has to use its powers to make others its thrall, and then tell its thralls what to do. The lich does... nothing. (Although again, you can have a mind flayer represent Sloth just fine.)

(Incidentally, I like the alhoon idea for the lich.)

As for dragons being Pride, I just figured that if I didn't want to pick a monster to be more than one of the Sins, they fit Greed so much better. As Thorin Oakshield said in The Hobbit, they can "sit on a mountain of treasure and never enjoy a brass ring of it!" You could even argue that they are not Pride because while they are a proud race, they are also a race that has a certain amount of justification to it in considering itself above everyone else. A human wizard who grew up in poverty, apprenticed at a young age after a master magician recognized his/her brilliance, and worked his/her way through wizard university describes the ascending star that is so much an archetype of the stories of Pride. To then turn that into hubris, to have the human wizard forget what it was like to be poor and struggling in life, and to bring about a reign of evil through magical means, especially for the purpose of proving to the universe how great s/he is, seems to be the definition of Pride as a Deadly Sin. When the human wizard falls, the fall is hard - it is possible to strip everything from the BBEG and just leave an old, bitter, broken wo/man, and it will still be recognizible as that person who once was that BBEG, who once was a poor child living in mud or on the streets. To do the same to a dragon, you either still leave it as a dragon, a recognizible icon of power and fantasy might, or you leave it as something that is not a dragon anymore.

Mind you, this is, again, just my opinion. You could do a dragon as Pride, and do a good job with it.


Riffington:

I figured using a demon for Lust worked because it is a Deadly Sin which is overlooked, mostly because people think it means carnal lust, when it encompasses a lot more. The key words, unrestrained excess, seems to indicate a creature which does not just take something more than they need, but takes something that they do not even need in the first place. Furthermore, in making the Sin more recognizible as Evil, it helps to show it in the worst light possible. You can play a satyr as a PC quite easily with a regular group of PCs, but it takes extra hoops through which to jump if you want to play a PC demon.

Narmoth
2009-08-12, 12:16 PM
What about:
Envy - doppelganger or changeling that changes into the person it envies, kills him, and then tries to take his place, then starts envying someone else...
Pride - Actually, a LN warlord set on conquering the world would be my choice here.

Riffington
2009-08-12, 12:17 PM
I still say Greed is the cardinal sin, for the reasons I listed above. Even Pride is a form of greed.

The most common historical ranking is pride, envy, wrath, sloth, avarice, gluttony, then lust - and there are some good reasons for this.

Pride is the sin above all - it is the sin which makes all others possible. You must be able to put your own will above the voice of right and wrong to commit any of the sins.

It is true that you can technically define any of the sins using word tricks as one another (oh, greed is just gluttony for money. Oh, wrath is just lust for blood) but they are different. They are all different ways for people to diverge from the path of universal love. As the most obvious example, sloth is not at all like greed. Greed is an "I want" sin while sloth is actually a sin of despair and a lack of desire.



Technically, healthiest in moderation would be gluttony. :smalltongue:


Gluttony is the second healthiest, by far. But gluttony reflects a disordered attitude towards food. It means that you are not treating it with the respect it deserves, you are harming yourself, and you are depriving others of food that they need. There are clear physical effects on your body and health. Lust is less harmful and closer to the necessary. It is a misuse of desire, because desire ought to be directed only where appropriate, but if it were directed just a bit differently (towards one's spouse) it would become appropriate. And desire is actually necessary to reproduction, whereas appetite is not strictly necessary to eat. This is why historically, lust was placed last.

Umael
2009-08-12, 12:24 PM
Nymph is the obvious choice for lust.

Two things - again, that's carnal lust. Although you could make a very disturbing nymph who delights in sadistic games and actually picking fights (or getting her lovers to fight for her).

And - there is a sample NPC fiendish or half-fiend nymph found in the BoEF. Not a bad pick for a BBEG.


What about:
Envy - doppelganger or changeling that changes into the person it envies, kills him, and then tries to take his place, then starts envying someone else...

Oohh! Good one!

The key to Envy is that the villain wants what someone else has (other than material goods) and that the villain hates that person for having it (while they, of course, do not).

As a sidenote, having a doppelganger or a changeling as a BBEG is pretty bad... but to make things uncomfortable for one of the PCs, make said BBEG the stereotypical jealous boy/girlfriend...

Pride - Actually, a LN warlord set on conquering the world would be my choice here.[/QUOTE]

Perfectly valid choice.


But gluttony reflects a disordered attitude towards food. It means that you are not treating it with the respect it deserves, you are harming yourself, and you are depriving others of food that they need. There are clear physical effects on your body and health.

Just want to clarify something here - much like lust is not just carnal lust, gluttony is not just about food. Things like medicine, oxygen, sunlight - things that your body needs to flourish, basically, all fall into gluttony. People who push their bodies by exercising too much are said to be a glutton for punishment. Many of these things (oxygen, sunlight, exercise) aren't issues because they are in such a high supply to demand. But a glutton on a spacecraft hoarding the oxygen? Glutton. The "pig" who "hogs" the only treadmill at your gym? Glutton. A starving drug addict can also be described as a glutton as well.

PirateMonk
2009-08-12, 12:30 PM
I still say Greed is the cardinal sin, for the reasons I listed above. Even Pride is a form of greed.

You could make a case for any sin being the cardinal sin.

Pride, because they all involve concern for oneself above others.
Gluttony, because they all involve excess and lack of moderation.
Greed for the reasons you mentioned.
Sloth, from the idea that virtue is harder than sin, and you just don't care enough to be virtuous.
Lust, because they all involve pursuing desires regardless of consequences.

I can't readily come up with an explanation for Wrath or Envy, but I'm sure it could be done.

As for Envy, the type of doppelganger that kills people or has them killed and steals their lives works well.

Telonius
2009-08-12, 12:32 PM
Pride: Elves, Drow, and Dragons work well here.
Wrath: Frenzied Berserker
Greed: Team of Adventurers
Lust: Succubus is a choice, but it's a very obvious one. A Vampire could fit as well. Alternately, you could use the Wizard responsible for creating all of the half-x's.
Envy : A Doppelganger could be an interesting choice here.
Sloth: Lich actually does work pretty well.
Gluttony: Big T is a fine choice. So is an advanced Devourer.

Jack Zander
2009-08-12, 12:39 PM
Two things - again, that's carnal lust. Although you could make a very disturbing nymph who delights in sadistic games and actually picking fights (or getting her lovers to fight for her).

And - there is a sample NPC fiendish or half-fiend nymph found in the BoEF. Not a bad pick for a BBEG.

See, to me, bloodlust falls under wrath. Most of these blend into each other, so keeping them as simple as possible would probably help. I would keep lust strictly as a strong desire for pleasure.

Unless you are playing with immature gamers as mentioned.

Kudaku
2009-08-12, 12:43 PM
Hi there! Very interesting reading so far, I especially liked your take on the gluttonuous(?) Vampire - if played right that could become an incredibly interesting BBEG.

However, I'm not quite sure I agree with your take on liches as the prime example of Sloth. From the fluff becoming a lich invariably takes large amounts of effort, resources, and... Well, work. Usually whoever does this does it because he burns for a cause and won't let death stand in his way. The classic example Of a worthy cause is a desire for immortality, but there have been numerous cases of people transforming themselves into liches for many other reasons - achieve ultimate power, researching the greatest spell in creation, finding a cure to the disease that's plaguing your wife, and so on and so forth. For these characters Lichdom is a means to an end, not the goal itself. As such, personally I have a hard time picturing liches just bumming around - they're up to something! :smallbiggrin:

Therefore I'm not sure if Sloth matches all that well.

If I may be so bold, I'd like to suggest a possible replacement. I give you: The Aboleth. It has psionics, a fetish for slaves, a rubbish movement speed out of water (waddle anyone?), and an intense hatred of just about anything matched only by its complete lack of interest in anything not intimately related to itself... To quote (Don't have my books on hand at the moment) wikipedia:


Aboleths are utterly self-centered as a race; they know they were among the first beings in existence, and see all else as theirs. Their enmity towards other races stems in part from their perception that these "upstart" races have stolen what is rightfully the aboleths'. All that stops them from conquering the surface is their weakness on land (though an aboleth is always a fierce opponent) and the fact that they would rather enjoy themselves than waste time subduing feeble creatures such as humans.

Glyde
2009-08-12, 12:47 PM
Sloth? Aboleth comes to mind. They like to just float/lay around and let mind-controlled slaves do all the work.

Roland St. Jude
2009-08-12, 12:50 PM
Sheriff of Moddingham: So far, so good, but please keep this as free from real world religion as possible. (That is, don't mention real world religion at all.)

Jergmo
2009-08-12, 12:53 PM
Eh, typically liches aren't actually all that slothful. They're not just doing nothing during all those centuries. They know they've got eternal life so long as they don't get killed, they're very patient and have plenty of time to plan and gain power. I see them as being more uber-paranoid because that immortality could be torn away if they're not careful.

PirateMonk
2009-08-12, 12:57 PM
Aboleths are utterly self-centered as a race; they know they were among the first beings in existence, and see all else as theirs. Their enmity towards other races stems in part from their perception that these "upstart" races have stolen what is rightfully the aboleths'. All that stops them from conquering the surface is their weakness on land (though an aboleth is always a fierce opponent) and the fact that they would rather enjoy themselves than waste time subduing feeble creatures such as humans.

This actually sounds more like Envy than Sloth.

One possibility for Sloth, though more inflicting it on others than symbolizing it themselves, is a djinni, efreeti, or other wish-granting creature, trapping their victims in a world of things wished into being, where their every desire is met without them having to do anything.

Jergmo
2009-08-12, 01:13 PM
This actually sounds more like Envy than Sloth.

One possibility for Sloth, though more inflicting it on others than symbolizing it themselves, is a djinni, efreeti, or other wish-granting creature, trapping their victims in a world of things wished into being, where their every desire is met without them having to do anything.

Efreeti symbolize Greed and Pride. Glabrezu symbolize Wrath and Lust. Djiin are little goody two-shoes.

LurkerInPlayground
2009-08-12, 01:19 PM
When I think of Envy, I think of a wretch so full of self-loathing that it lashes out at others for things they possess which it lacks. Someone who is ugly attacking and mutiliating someone who is beautiful just because they are beautiful is a perfect example. As with all of the Sins, there are a lot of choices, but after a bit of research, I'm going to go for the mind flayer. While I am sure that a lot of you won't agree that mind flayers fit the mold of a wretch, possibly even a creature with a low self-esteem, there seems to be a bit of psychological basis for my decision.



For Envy, I'd go the FMA route and pick something that can steal people's shapes. An inhuman, soulless creature that longs to belong to an existing race, to the point that it would try and murder/impersonate a party member. I'm not sharp enough on D&D monsters to know exactly what that would be, but I'm sure there's a monster that could do that.
Easily done with Dopplegangers.

I saw something in The Vision of Escaflowne where Dopplegangers have to kill people in order to take their form and abilities. They're a people that are eternally trapped in conflict and are universally despised and hated. They have no real place in society unless they pass themselves off as somebody else.

All that's required is a proper refluffing of Dopplegangers for your use.

Kudaku
2009-08-12, 01:28 PM
This actually sounds more like Envy than Sloth.

You can certainly make an argument for either case, but I was wracking my brain to think of a proper "sloth" BBEG. :smallsmile:

Umael
2009-08-12, 01:29 PM
So far, the only choice I've seriously re-considered (if I was to run a game with the Seven Deadly Sins as a theme) is my Envy. Definitely going to go with doppelganger now.

Although I think my Wrath choice needs some work...

Yora
2009-08-12, 01:31 PM
Regarding lust, I think it's important to not reduce it to something which is merely "not proper".
When we're taking about the greatest sins, lust has to be a source of suffering and harm. So I think a mostly regular nymph wouldn't do it.

For wrath, it might be an interesting idea to not go the way of blind destruction. As it says "Hell has no fury like a woman scorned". Women usually don't show their anger and hatred as openly and use more subtle means to comit violent crimes. It hink that could be a theme to be explored more.
Maybe a medusa would be start. Or an erinyes, which in mythologies have been "the Furies".

Jergmo
2009-08-12, 01:39 PM
Regarding lust, I think it's important to not reduce it to something which is merely "not proper".
When we're taking about the greatest sins, lust has to be a source of suffering and harm. So I think a mostly regular nymph wouldn't do it.

For wrath, it might be an interesting idea to not go the way of blind destruction. As it says "Hell has no fury like a woman scorned". Women usually don't show their anger and hatred as openly and use more subtle means to comit violent crimes. It hink that could be a theme to be explored more.
Maybe a medusa would be start. Or an erinyes, which in mythologies have been "the Furies".

Female Glabrezu!

Jack Zander
2009-08-12, 01:51 PM
Now that I think about it, it would be more interesting for each BBEG to try to seduce the party into adopting his or her deadly sin.

Wrath would duke it out til the end, then grin evily and tell them to strike him down with all their hatred when he is defeated.
Greed may tell the party of powerful magic items and treasure hidden away somewhere. Amoung the treasure are several cursed items that the BBEG knows about and plans to attack when they are vunerable (then steal the treasure from them).
Lust is easy to do with a succubus or nymph.
The others haven't come to me real quick like these three, but I'm sure it's very possible.

The Demented One
2009-08-12, 02:08 PM
My take on it. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=83367)

Umael
2009-08-12, 02:10 PM
Now that I think about it, it would be more interesting for each BBEG to try to seduce the party into adopting his or her deadly sin.

Have each BBEG create its own weakness, an artifact that passes on the curse, and then plant stories about how they are vulnerable to it - or maybe, a chain of artifacts relating to the other BBEG's weaknesses - only by being filled with Wrath can the PCs hope to defeat Lust, etc.

Optimystik
2009-08-12, 02:13 PM
Now that I think about it, it would be more interesting for each BBEG to try to seduce the party into adopting his or her deadly sin.

Wrath would duke it out til the end, then grin evily and tell them to strike him down with all their hatred when he is defeated.
Greed may tell the party of powerful magic items and treasure hidden away somewhere. Amoung the treasure are several cursed items that the BBEG knows about and plans to attack when they are vunerable (then steal the treasure from them).
Lust is easy to do with a succubus or nymph.
The others haven't come to me real quick like these three, but I'm sure it's very possible.

For that to work properly, you need some kind of metaphysical punishment for the players choosing to "give in" to their mortal frailities and adopt the sins. For example, a warrior that chooses to run Wrath through when goaded should be given corruption points, or rip open a rift to the Abyss, or become cursed with unthinking bloodlust (and need a constant Calm Emotions spell to function normally), etc.

Sloth I would have manifest Microcosm or cast Imprisonment on the party member(s) that he convinces to remain behind with him.

Gluttony and Lust are pretty easy as you said.

Jack Zander
2009-08-12, 02:16 PM
Have each BBEG create its own weakness, an artifact that passes on the curse, and then plant stories about how they are vulnerable to it - or maybe, a chain of artifacts relating to the other BBEG's weaknesses - only by being filled with Wrath can the PCs hope to defeat Lust, etc.

That would be interesting. Make it so each BBEG cannot truely die unless they all do within a set amount of time (week perhaps?) Otherwise they regenerate. Now the PCs have to destroy each one by adopting the burdens of the sins, and if the burden becomes too much and the PCs stray from their path, the artifacts undo the BBEGs destruction and are magically teleported away from the PCs. Obviously the first one they have to find is Sloth :smallamused:

Jair Barik
2009-08-12, 02:22 PM
Mind flayers would make a great Gluttony choice if you read up on them in Lords of Madness. They have all sorts of special rituals and the like to do with food and their requirements. They don't need a massive constant food supply but IMO a Mind Flayer who eats much more than he needs to for his own pleasure (kidnaping, devouring prisoners, human taxation, raids etc.) is a much better choice for Gluttony than a creature that has a naturally vast appetite.

While the big T may well eat a lot it only eats to fulfill its natural hunger and does so on a specific cycle. On that basis T is just as good a candidate for Sloth as Gluttony. I'd say chose creatures that represent the sins by the individuals lifestyle instead of their natural characteristics (though the prior could be based off the later) as otherwise it is more akin to original sin, sin that is not the fault of the individual.

My ideas then are perhaps
Lust -Don't ask me why but I think a Tsochar would be cool herre despite its lack of gender.
Gluttony- Mind flayer
Avarice -Really this does have to be a dragon I think
Sloth -A lich does seem a good choice as it can afford to be lazy.
Wrath -Could be another dragon, a giant or a barbarian. Alternatively though it could be something along the lines of a Lycanthrope with a Jeckel and Hyde style persona perhaps
Envy-A beholder, I'm sorry but "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" just sets this one up too nicely, plus those guys are ugly as hell
Pride-Like the human wizard idea here but as another option perhaps an UBER dread wraith that takes pride in its children (spawn) maybe.

Umael
2009-08-12, 02:23 PM
Just to be fair, this thread doesn't have to be about D&D. For example, Vampire: the Masquerade:

Lust - Toreador (passion for the arts and all that)
Gluttony - Malkavian
Greed - Ventrue (richest of the original seven Clans)
Sloth - Gangrel (apathetic about most of Camarilla society)
Wrath - Brujah (obvious)
Envy - Nosferatu (envy of beauty)
Pride - Tremere

I'm not sure about Gluttony and Pride, honestly...

Riffington
2009-08-12, 02:30 PM
Just to be fair, this thread doesn't have to be about D&D. For example, Vampire: the Masquerade:

Lust - Toreador (passion for the arts and all that)
Gluttony - Malkavian
Greed - Ventrue (richest of the original seven Clans)
Sloth - Gangrel (apathetic about most of Camarilla society)
Wrath - Brujah (obvious)
Envy - Nosferatu (envy of beauty)
Pride - Tremere

I'm not sure about Gluttony and Pride, honestly...

Gluttony should be Giovanni, and I agree with you on Tremere for Pride (as well as many of the others).
I personally would do Setite for Lust though Toreador certainly works. But I think Toreador actually works better for Sloth.

Flickerdart
2009-08-12, 02:50 PM
Pride should definitely be a Grey Elf Wizard instead of Human. I mean honestly, Elves (or Drow possibly) are as prideful as Dragons if not more so. Elves can do everything better than you and will not hesitate to point that out.

Optimystik
2009-08-12, 03:07 PM
Pride should definitely be a Grey Elf Wizard instead of Human. I mean honestly, Elves (or Drow possibly) are as prideful as Dragons if not more so. Elves can do everything better than you and will not hesitate to point that out.

If it must be an elf, go with Drow - not even grey elves share their sense of racial entitlement (to the point of keeping slaves.) He could even roleplay his SR as being so far above your lowly spellcraft as to make it irrelevant.

daggaz
2009-08-12, 03:41 PM
I would just base it off the hit 60's TV-show, Gilligan's Island.

No, seriously.

Each character easily embodies one of the deadly sins.

1. Most obvious is the Professor, who fits PRIDE to a T. Any man who can make a ham radio out of some wire and two coconuts has to be pretty cocky. His character was later revised and given a series of his own, called "MacGyver."

2. For the sin of ENVY we need look no further than Maryann, who may have worn those skimpy little tops, but could never achieve Ginger's glamour. (As an interesting and completely irrelevant side note, a nationwide survey of college students a few years ago revealed that the professor and Maryann were voted the most likely couple to have 'done it' on the island.)

3. And who could doubt for a moment that Ginger is LUST incarnate? Sure, the kids were supposed to think she was ACTING, but we all know what being deprived episode after episode was doing to her. You know and I know that glazed look wasn't boredom, my friends.

4. What kind of person takes a trunk full of money on a three-hour cruise? Mr.Howell gets my vote for GREED.

We are now left with three characters and three Deadly Sins. We have Gilligan, the Skipper and Mrs. Howell to whom we must match GLUTTONY, SLOTH and ANGER. As you can see, there is a Gilligan problem here.

5. Certainly we can further eliminate Mrs. Howell from this equation by connecting her with SLOTH. She did jack **** during her many years on the island and everybody knows it.

6,7. This leaves ANGER and GLUTTONY, either of which the Skipper had no shortage. He was, after all, a big guy with the tendency to hit Gilligan with his hat at least once an episode. After much consideration, I have decided that he can easily do double-duty, covering the two remaining Deadly Sins.

So here we have the Seven Deadly Sins trapped in an endlessly recurring Hell of hope followed by denial and despair, forced to live with each other in our TVs until the last re-run ends. And who is their captor? What keeps them trapped there, on an island baring his namesake? Gilligan.

Gilligan is Satan. Think about it.


:smallcool: of course its not mine, but god I love that theory.. /hijack

Optimystik
2009-08-12, 03:45 PM
We were doing so well too.

Mind editing out the S-word, dag?

sofawall
2009-08-12, 03:47 PM
Wouldn't the Abyssal Maw be good for Gluttony?

deuxhero
2009-08-12, 04:20 PM
You could go with the old version of sloth and have him be some god hating guy (ur-priest?).

Forbiddenwar
2009-08-12, 04:42 PM
surprised no one has mentioned Full metal and how all their BBEGs were based on the 7. Using inspiration from that.
In that regard, yes Envy is a doppelganger. S/he shape shifted into anyone, or anything.
Pride: warlord/king as mentionewd above as well. Though pride works equally well with wizards (ie alchemists in the show)
lust: Everone wanted to own her but couldn't. Lust may be one of the hardest creatures to pin down in D&D outside of a secubai
Gluttony: consuming anything and everything. An unstoppable hunger. Tarrasque no doubt. Yes it is a force, not a BBEG, but something about unending hunger without a mind seems more terrifying than any BBEG ever come across
Wrath: a little kid. Though a broken golem would count as well

note: I seem to be slipping away from 1 BBEG each and more towards 1monster each with a BBEG controlling them all.

Sloth: was a water elemental. I don't see it very well.Mind flayers might work well. Sloth seems to be one of the hardest. Can BBEG be slothful? Well, gods come to mind.

Greed: Red dragon all the way. Says so right in th MM1.

PirateMonk
2009-08-12, 05:03 PM
Pride should definitely be a Grey Elf Wizard instead of Human. I mean honestly, Elves (or Drow possibly) are as prideful as Dragons if not more so. Elves can do everything better than you and will not hesitate to point that out.

Does it count as pride if they really are better than you?

Yora
2009-08-12, 05:49 PM
Now that I think about it, it would be more interesting for each BBEG to try to seduce the party into adopting his or her deadly sin.

Wrath would duke it out til the end, then grin evily and tell them to strike him down with all their hatred when he is defeated.
Greed may tell the party of powerful magic items and treasure hidden away somewhere. Amoung the treasure are several cursed items that the BBEG knows about and plans to attack when they are vunerable (then steal the treasure from them).
Lust is easy to do with a succubus or nymph.
The others haven't come to me real quick like these three, but I'm sure it's very possible.
They can only be defeated if you manage to resist their sin.
Resist the temptations of Lusts freed slaves.
Turn your back against Glutonys treasures.
Let go of the treasures Greed leves behind.
Don't attack Wrath in anger.
And never, really don't gloat about defeating Pride!

But I am at a loss with Sloth and Envy.

Agrippa
2009-08-12, 06:05 PM
If think about sloth was once called "the sin of dispair". So to defeat sloth you would have to resist depression and help others recover from it. In fact most of sloth's abilities would center around spreading sorrow, hopelessness and despair.

Jack Zander
2009-08-12, 07:13 PM
They can only be defeated if you manage to resist their sin.
Resist the temptations of Lusts freed slaves.
Turn your back against Glutonys treasures.
Let go of the treasures Greed leves behind.
Don't attack Wrath in anger.
And never, really don't gloat about defeating Pride!

And the penalty if you don't? You become the next incarnation!

PirateMonk
2009-08-12, 09:16 PM
A weird interpretation on the weaknesses thing: each Sin controls an artifact that is the only thing that can defeat another specific one. The artifact causes its wielder to gain the characteristics of the sin, and only appears when its original owner is defeated. Thus, in order to defeat all of them, the PCs must construct a stable time loop, and if they ever fail to defeat one, all the defeated ones come back into being, as they never could have been defeated.

Jack Zander
2009-08-12, 10:30 PM
So we have two ways to look at it:
You must either be pure of temptations of the seven sins, or
You must bear the sins in order to defeat them.

I'm not sure which one I like better.