Archivist Concept: Master of Good and Evil [3.5]

[Human Paragon 3]

I am considering a concept character, an archivist who is interested in walking the paths of both good and evil, learning as much as he can about the power source of each, understanding their strengths and weaknesses, and harnessing their specific proficiencies for a variety of applications, mostly research-based. This isn't necessarily about understanding their philosophy, except when it informs the nature of their power.

I am looking for feat and spell selections that highlight these opposed philosophies. In addition, this is an optimization request, since the character is looking for maximum effect through following each path and then harmonizing them.

All wotc sources are allowed, though I have very limited access to dragon magazine.

[Ellington]

Good and evil isn't really something you just experiment with. If you're doing good things for all the wrong reasons, you're not really good.

[kamikasei]

I would assume he's talking about using both [Good] and [Evil] spells. It's an interesting idea, and suited to the class.

[Human Paragon 3]

Yes, exactly. Not concerned with being good or being evil, only interested in learning what the students of good and evil have uncovered over the centuries and harnessing their power. The character would be neutral.

And yes, good and evil spells are the idea.

[Optimystik]

If you want to explore the concepts of Good and Evil academically, Ardent is your best bet. Archivist should be able to pull it off though.

[Human Paragon 3]

Ardent doesn't get spellcasting though, and psionics is mostly alignment free. Granted, the mantles would be interesting but they're not very strong in and of themselves. If I were actually interested in mastering the power of good and evil, I think I'd become a spellcaster.

[ZeroNumerous]

As long as you're True Neutral, then no spell is diametrically opposed by your alignment. Might I suggest taking Blasphemy/Holy Word/Dictum/I Forget The Chaos One? Maybe Sanctify the Wicked and Mindrape too?

[Human Paragon 3]

Since holy word et al. depend on your caster level, can you think of any tricks for getting caster level as high as possible? Going Hierophant and taking spell power 5 times gets you a caster level of 25 by level 20, but that's clearly not high enough.

[RTGoodman]

I don't know if the Spell Power multiple times works - wouldn't that be same bonus from the same source? I know I've heard it ruled that way for Archmage before...

Anyway, check out this Raising Caster Level (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=615672) thread, and see what works.

[Optimystik]

Ardent doesn't get spellcasting though, and psionics is mostly alignment free. Granted, the mantles would be interesting but they're not very strong in and of themselves. If I were actually interested in mastering the power of good and evil, I think I'd become a spellcaster.

Ardents have power lists, thus they are casters: you say po-tay-toe, I say po-tah-toe.


As long as you're True Neutral, then no spell is diametrically opposed by your alignment. Might I suggest taking Blasphemy/Holy Word/Dictum/I Forget The Chaos One? Maybe Sanctify the Wicked and Mindrape too?

You can't cast Sanctified Magic of any kind without being Good-aligned. Also, the words will shift your alignment with use, so he'd need to be careful doing that.

[JeenLeen]

As long as you're True Neutral, then no spell is diametrically opposed by your alignment. Might I suggest taking Blasphemy/Holy Word/Dictum/I Forget The Chaos One? Maybe Sanctify the Wicked and Mindrape too?

Would you be affected by your own Holy Word etc. if you are Neutral? (Btw, the Neutral-aligned one is especially strong: Judged in the Balance, I think. Spell Compedium, whatever the title.)

If you are not a cleric, I don't think there is any prohibition on casting a spell opposed to your alignment. A good archivist can cast evil spells, and vice-versa, just like a wizard can.

The problem is that such casting is suppose to slowly edge your alignment one way or another; to cast a spell with an alignment descriptor is to do an act of that alignment. To keep true neutral (or any alignment), you would have to be dedicated to such and cast spell porportionally to cancel one another out: if you cast Mindrape, better cast a level 9 good spell to nullify the pull towards evil.

[Lyndworm]

Ardents have power lists, thus they are casters: you say po-tay-toe, I say po-tah-toe.

You can say potato all you want, but Wizard of the Coast says manifester.

[Milskidasith]

Ankh of Ascension, Heirophant 4 levels with the Practiced Spellcaster feat, spellgifted in Evocation, Bead of Karma, Orange Ioun Stones, etc. What I've listed gives you +14 to your CL without including heirophant features.

To avoid it, just take extraordinary spell aim and buff your spellcraft.

[Optimystik]

You can say potato all you want, but Wizard of the Coast says manifester.

They also say "psionics-magic transparency rules."

[Human Paragon 3]

Ankh of Ascension, Heirophant 4 levels with the Practiced Spellcaster feat, spellgifted in Evocation, Bead of Karma, Orange Ioun Stones, etc. What I've listed gives you +14 to your CL without including heirophant features.

To avoid it, just take extraordinary spell aim and buff your spellcraft.

How does practiced spellcaster help? It cant raise your CL over your HD and Heirophant already increases your CL 1/HD

[PurinaDragonCho]

I could be wrong about this, but I think Dictum et al affect the caster, too - so if a neutral character casts it, he affects himself.

[Milskidasith]

Extraordinary Spell Aim. Learn it, live it, love it.

Also, what is the "neutral" version of Holy Word like? I don't know what it's effects are since I don't have the book.

[thegurullamen]

Extraordinary Spell Aim. Learn it, live it, love it.

Also, what is the "neutral" version of Holy Word like? I don't know what it's effects are since I don't have the book.

Existential Blues
Evocation [Sonic]
Level: Clr 7, Existentialist/Neutral 7
Components: V
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 40 ft.
Area: Nonneutral creatures in a 40-ft.-radius spread centered on you
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None or Will negates; see text
Spell Resistance: Yes

Any nonneutral creature within the area that hears the existential blues suffers the following ill effects.

{table=head]HD|Effect
Equal to caster level|Deafened
Up to caster level -1|Blinded, deafened
Up to caster level -5|Paralyzed, blinded, deafened
Up to caster level -10|Killed, paralyzed, blinded, deafened[/table]

The effects are cumulative and concurrent. No saving throw is allowed against these effects.

Deafened:
The creature is deafened for 1d4 rounds.

Blinded:
The creature is blinded for 2d4 rounds.

Paralyzed:
The creature is paralyzed and helpless for 1d10 minutes.

Killed:
Living creatures lose the will to live. Undead creatures become depressed and are destroyed.

Furthermore, if you are on your home plane when you cast this spell, nonneutral extraplanar creatures within the area are instantly banished back to their home planes. Creatures so banished cannot return for at least 24 hours. This effect takes place regardless of whether the creatures hear the existential blues. The banishment effect allows a Will save (at a -4 penalty) to negate.

Creatures whose HD exceed your caster level are unaffected by your Nietzschean angst.

[Milskidasith]

I meant the real version... it was mentioned somewhere up here. I'd assume it had slightly different effects from Holy Word. Judged in Balance was the name given.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Word of Balance. Holy Word except only working on people at the extremes of alignments(CE/LG/CG/LE).

[ZeroNumerous]

If you are not a cleric, I don't think there is any prohibition on casting a spell opposed to your alignment. A good archivist can cast evil spells, and vice-versa, just like a wizard can.

Druids have that "cannot cast spells diametrically opposed to one end of your alignment spectrum" clause. I assume the case is the same for archivists, but it if isn't then there's no problem either way.

And yes, casting those spells will shift his alignment, but I as under the impression that he wanted to know all the spells of Good/Evil/Lawful/Chaotic, and those were the biggest alignment spells I know of off hand.

[Milskidasith]

Word of Balance. Holy Word except only working on people at the extremes of alignments(CE/LG/CG/LE).

It really is exactly the same? Weird; most of the spells are subtly different (well, by subtly different; the good and evil ones seem better than the other ones, honestly).

[Kaiyanwang]

Cannot speak for Archivist, but Clerics CANNOT cast spells of opposite alignment. (And Clrc alignment must be kept one step from his deity.)

BTW, this makes sense: cleric spells comes from a deity of a specific alignment, and so are part of their divine power, their essence. Pelor has not is his portfolio the power of raising vile undeads.

[Myshlaevsky]

Cannot speak for Archivist, but Clerics CANNOT cast spells of opposite alignment. (And Clrc alignment must be kept one step from his deity.)

BTW, this makes sense: cleric spells comes from a deity of a specific alignment, and so are part of their divine power, their essence. Pelor has not is his portfolio the power of raising vile undeads.

This caused a lot of discussion because there's a picture of Jozan casting Symbol of Pain in the core rulebooks. I'm sure someone can provide the link to the gleemax thread. Pelor, the Burning Hate!

[PId6]

This caused a lot of discussion because there's a picture of Jozan casting Symbol of Pain in the core rulebooks. I'm sure someone can provide the link to the gleemax thread.
Don't mind if I do! (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=846926)

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y43/thelettuceman/Evilsun.png

[kamikasei]

Cannot speak for Archivist, but Clerics CANNOT cast spells of opposite alignment. (And Clrc alignment must be kept one step from his deity.)

Doesn't apply to Archivists so far as I'm aware. In fact it's specifically stated that Archivists are not granted their spells by the deity they worship, so it's kind of unclear where exactly they do come from.

So what are the best options for opposed good/evil and maybe law/chaos spells?

The words are an obvious set.

Summoning spells are aligned depending on what you summon, so with one spell per level you can explore the abilities and natures of differently-aligned outsiders.

You could create both undead and deathless.

[Kaiyanwang]

This caused a lot of discussion because there's a picture of Jozan casting Symbol of Pain in the core rulebooks. I'm sure someone can provide the link to the gleemax thread. Pelor, the Burning Hate!

The usual uber-editing of Wotc I guess.


Doesn't apply to Archivists so far as I'm aware.

I checked. Yeah, I think that with archivist you don't have alignment restrictions (it fits with the class flavour, I see it less a worshipper like Cleric or Favoured Soul, and more someone able to reproduce rituals and prayers having a concept of religion as a whole, or being sort of a philosopher).


To the OP: Words Spells and Undead/Deathless are, so, sweet ideas.

In planar handbook and in Spell compendium there are planar domain.. could be them useful as a divine spell source and inspiration?

Most Planes are directly connected with alignment. At least, this could be vaild with summons (I summon a Fiend this round and a Celestial the following round).

Summons for Inevitable exist, I guess for Slaadi too (not certain of this).

More, Remember that Conjuration (calling) spells are great for roleplaying, too,since if you call an ousider, you call a being nont only really sure of its alignment, but MADE of that alignment too. The implications are endless.

[Human Paragon 3]

Is there anything stopping one from using Dark Speech and Words of Creation?

[kamikasei]

Is there anything stopping one from using Dark Speech and Words of Creation?

Aren't they [Vile] and [Exalted] feats, respectively? So wouldn't you basically have to save a bunch of babies from a burning orphanage while you're on fire, and then eat them, while somehow keeping the universe only aware of one of those acts at a time?

[subject42]

As long as you're True Neutral, then no spell is diametrically opposed by your alignment. Might I suggest taking Blasphemy/Holy Word/Dictum/I Forget The Chaos One? Maybe Sanctify the Wicked and Mindrape too?

The magic circle against [Alignment] and [Alignment] weapon and water spells might be useful as well.

Actually, what happens if you cast magic circle against evil and try to cast an evil spell from inside of it?

[Fixer]

Is there anything stopping one from using Dark Speech and Words of Creation?Words of Creations is an Exalted feat, so you could not reasonably take those if you cast a single evil spell, or you lose the benefits of the feat the moment you cast a single evil spell.

[Optimystik]

Cannot speak for Archivist, but Clerics CANNOT cast spells of opposite alignment. (And Clrc alignment must be kept one step from his deity.)

BTW, this makes sense: cleric spells comes from a deity of a specific alignment, and so are part of their divine power, their essence. Pelor has not is his portfolio the power of raising vile undeads.

Malconvoker would like a word with you :smallwink:

[Random832]

If you are not a cleric, I don't think there is any prohibition on casting a spell opposed to your alignment. A good archivist can cast evil spells, and vice-versa, just like a wizard can.

Malconvoker is a good example of this (Summon Monster and Planar Binding are [Evil] when used to summon an (Evil) creature, and Malconvokers must be non-evil)

[hamishspence]

They also have, in their class description, exemptions to the "Must not be X alignment" and "Casting X spells causes alignment slippage."

That is, a Good malconvoker can cast evil summon spells, even if they are a cleric, who normally can't cast Evil spells at all if Good, and casting these spells has no effect on his alignment.

Technically, none of the books say "If you cast an evil spell, you change alignment"

However, several sourcebooks say- committing evil acts enough leads to alignment change- so a Good wizard could cast an Evil spell, and stay good, but if they keep doing it, they eventually slip to Neutral and finally Evil.

With Malconvokers being the sole exception, and even then, only for summoning spells.