Big Eyes, Small Mouth - 3e

[Blackjackg]

I'm thinking of running a game in the PbP section of these forums, and I've (almost) decided that the ideal system for the game I want to run is the third edition of BESM, using the Tri-stat system. I've never run the game before (or even played it), but from reading the book it seems like a pretty fun and easy system.

Before making my recruitment post, I did a search for other BESM games that have been run, to gauge the popularity and try and guess how many applications I might get. And what I found was, next to nothing. A few people posted looking for players and got practically no response.

So my question is: What's the deal with that? Why no love for Tri-Stat? Is it something inherently wrong with the system, or is it just kind of obscure?

[The Rose Dragon]

Basically, because Tri-Stat dX is just not a stellar point-buy system.

It is free, of course, so it has that going for it, but BESM 3rd Edition is not free, and there are better systems out there, like Mutants & Masterminds (my personal favorite) and GURPS (for grittier games and for higher levels of customization).

However, the reason in this specific case is because you're in GitP, where non-D&D games are considered to be the spawn of the Devils not very popular. For every, say, 100 D&D games, there will be 1 to 3 non-D&D games in the PbP forums.

EDIT: Though I don't really care, I'll play any BESM game you'll throw at me.

[Tengu_temp]

Pretty much what The Rose Dragon said. There's really nothing BESM can do that Mutants and Masterminds + the latest Mecha and Manga splatbook (guess what it is about) can't do better, unless you really want to have a game with Final Fantasy-like HP and MP.

And yes, even despite that depending on the topic of the game I might be interested in it, too.

[Blackjackg]

I see.

I don't suppose you folks know where I could obtain free, but legal, copies of the other two games you mentioned. (BTW, which edition of GURPS do you favor?)

Good to know there's a couple people who might be interested in a BESM game. I'll keep you posted.

[The Rose Dragon]

I don't play GURPS. I only have the GURPS Lite, so I can't really comment on that one.

To my knowledge, you can't get M&M for free legally. But it's worth every penny you pay for it, so I suggest so save some money to buy it.

[Behold_the_Void]

I never really liked BESM, it didn't really capture the feel for me, nor did it seem particularly balanced, which is why I just went and made my own system with a friend to do what it does.

It's in free beta if you want to check it out.

[Blackjackg]

I truth, I wasn't really looking for a strictly anime game. Just simple and customizable, and capable of handling multiple genres within a single game. Maybe with some anime elements.

I've only done very cursory readings on them, but GURPS looks like a slightly better fit than M&M, if only because the latter seems particularly geared toward the superhero genre.

[The Rose Dragon]

Oh no. M&M may be marketed as a superhero game, but it's capable of doing nearly anything.

Well, except for three things: linear progression low-powered games, real life games and Monty Haul games.

Other than that, it works for anything you may think of.

[JeenLeen]

I never really liked BESM, it didn't really capture the feel for me, nor did it seem particularly balanced...

Having DM (rather horribly, I admit) a BESM game, I agree it's terribly unbalanced unless you limit what players can buy.

Some of the abilities you can buy like Mecha or Artifact (or a similiar name) effectively give you more points. For an example using made up numbers, if you have 20 points to spend on ablilities, you can spend those on Mecha, which then gives you 80 points to spend on your Mech. Abilities cost the same for your Mech as for a person, so if you made a body suit (or mystical aura) you always wear, which is easy to do, you then have a character built from 80 points in a 20-point build.

Of course, if you don't play with power-gamers and everyone just wants to make a fun character, then go for it.


I do like its method for creating attacks. Very versatile and you can modify your attacks to fit your character concept.

[ninja_penguin]

Yes, the biggest problem in BESM is that your players can accidentally level buildings with attacks if you don't reign them in a little bit. Mercifully, they put in suggested benchmarks so you can ballpark things, but you basically need to control character creation with an iron fist. The noted 'container' attributes like mecha and artifacts can sometimes get out of hand. You basically need to see what you want out of everybody. At least 3rd edition shifted to a roll-over system.

That said, for people in the thread, what do you like about M&M 2e, and the mecha and manga supplement? I'm seriously debating picking them up, have heard good things, but don't know if other people in my area would play.

[Knaight]

M&M is the best thing that ever came out of d20. It drops hit points like the outdated idea that they are, instead having toughness rolls and individual injuries. This brings temporary effects to center field, and powers that throw people around, slow them, etc. add to this. In most anime battles in less realistic shows have this sort of stunning, dazing, and altogether successful hitting in center field. Add to that powers that cover a huge amount, a feat system that covers more, and an altogether easy to use system with a lot of crunch, and it fits beautifully.

[Raum]

So my question is: What's the deal with that? Why no love for Tri-Stat? Is it something inherently wrong with the system, or is it just kind of obscure?Historically this site is extremely d20 centric. You might check RPG.net or some of the other more general sites for interest if you're sold on BESM.

[jmbrown]

GURPS is in its 4th edition and you only need two books to run it; the Basic Characters and Basic Campaigns books. The rest of the book series expands on those two but GURPS Magic is pretty much a must have IMO. That'll run you 60 something bucks, though.

Mutants and Masterminds is truly a great system and it plays similar to D&D 4E minus the tactical movement and with complete customization. It's really fast and intuitive and you only need one book to play it. Mecha and Manga source book adds a lot of good stuff for over-the-top anime fans but you can still have giant mechs fighting each other and dimension hopping powers straight out of the core book.

Finally I'll point you to Maid RPG (http://www.maidrpg.com/), a really creepy RPG where you play as an anime moe-blob maid. The game's rules run very minimalist, entire sessions can be generated from a huge list of charts and your characters can even spend points to roll on the chart thus shaping the story ("We just saved master from the yakuza-- oh no! Meteors are striking the mansion!"), and the entire game itself is over-the-top and silly. The PDF is pretty cheap as well.

Now, onto free systems.

If you don't care about rules, check out Risus. It's a 10 something page long RPG system geared towards roleplay over rollplay. It's mostly a comedic game but there are (surprisingly good) serious variants available like Risus Western. Risus won't give you that simulationist feel of other games without tons of work but if all you care about is having fun playing a character while periodically rolling dice to see if something happens, Risus is a good choice.

I'll next point you to FUDGE and the off spring FATE (2.0 is the free version as 3.0 hasn't been released for free yet). FATE in particular removes the attributes like strength from the FUDGE rules and gives you aspects. Aspects are things that define your character and you can spend a fate point to invoke them.

As an example, Vash the Stampede from Trigun would have "Sixty billion double dollar man" and "The Humanoid Typhoon" as aspects. At any time he could invoke his "The Humanoid Typhoon" aspect by spending a fate point and he'd get a bonus to a skill (probably some sort of combat bonus). On the flipside, the player earns fate points by compelling aspects. Let's say he compels "The Humanoid Typhoon" and by stroke of bad luck destroys a building he's trying to protect.

The GM can also compel your aspect. The GM can give you a fate point to compel "Sixty billion double dollar man" and then toss a whole wave of thugs at you trying to get the bounty. Reversing the situation, the player can invoke the same aspect and scare off the weaker thugs because with that title comes the recognition that you're no one to mess with.

If you like attributes, stick with FUDGE. The aspects system was originally written as an add on to FUDGE before FATE was made but both systems are free and really good provided you spend the extra time to adapt them to your campaign.

[Raum]

I truth, I wasn't really looking for a strictly anime game. Just simple and customizable, and capable of handling multiple genres within a single game. Maybe with some anime elements.In addition to the games jmbrown mentioned, you might look into the following:
Free and available for multiple genres: Witchcraft (http://www.edenstudios.net/witchcraft/index.html) (Classic Unisystem)
Nemesis (http://www.nemesis-system.com/) (One Roll Engine)
PDQ (http://www.atomicsockmonkey.com/freebies.asp#pdq) (Prose Descriptive Qualities)
Savage Worlds Test Drive (http://www.peginc.com/downloads.html) (Savage Worlds - full version costs $10)
Or a long list of free games (http://www.darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/freerpgs/fulllist.html), many of which may not fit your listed criteria.

[Blackjackg]

I dunno guys. I've been looking over the M&M 2nd ed core book, and it really doesn't look like what I want. Pretty rules-intensive, pretty superhero-centric (maybe I'm just being short-sighted, but it really does seem to be just what they're going for), and built on the same six stupid D&D ability scores that have been bugging me for twenty years.

I admit, I'm not the kind of gaming genius who can just pick up a book and gauge accurately how playable it is. I may wind up buying a copy and looking at it more closely, but right now, I really don't see what the appeal is.

[Oslecamo]

Indeed, what the M&M fans forget to tell is that it is one of the most(if not the more) complex systems out there.

BESM 3e has a huge lack of balance as it's indeed easy to increase your actual points, but if you're playing with nonpower gamers, it's actually a quite fun (and fast) system.

I actually played in a BESM 3e in these forums, but then the Dm vanished and the campaign died, as it happens with 88% of the games around here.

I would play still. And there's actually enough people on the forums to make a campaign of BESM whitout much trouble.

[Doc Roc]

So there's this system that I love called Savage Worlds. It's award-winning, 10 bucks for the core book, available legally as a lovely PDF, strongly supported, elegant, and has mind-blowingly fun settings. You might, Iunno, like it. It's also rules-light, for the most part, with a very fast and elegant combat system.

Did I mention the part where you can buy four nice hard-copy core books for the price of one of the M&M core books?

If you're near Richmond, VA, I'll even lend you my copy.

[Blackjackg]

I like what I'm hearing, Tidesinger. How customizable is it?

[Doc Roc]

Let's see:

There's a Crimson-Skies inspired airship expansion.

There's medieval fantasy.

High Fantasy.

Two ways of doing super heroes.

Pirates.

Deadlands.

Cyberpunk.

Cyberpunk deadlands, soon.


And that's just the out of the box expansions for sale. There are also conversions either legit or fan-made for most every setting. The simple fact of the matter is that SW kicks M&M's pudgy kludgy pricy d20-inspired butt. That, of course, is just my incredibly biased opinion. Your mileage WILL vary. You will not like it as much as I do, in all likely-hood. But it should still be good enough for what you want.

[jmbrown]

I dunno guys. I've been looking over the M&M 2nd ed core book, and it really doesn't look like what I want. Pretty rules-intensive, pretty superhero-centric (maybe I'm just being short-sighted, but it really does seem to be just what they're going for), and built on the same six stupid D&D ability scores that have been bugging me for twenty years.

I admit, I'm not the kind of gaming genius who can just pick up a book and gauge accurately how playable it is. I may wind up buying a copy and looking at it more closely, but right now, I really don't see what the appeal is.

Rules intensive? Not at all. If you're new to point buy systems then the powers will be daunting since you can totally customize a character from square one. The rules themselves are simple. There's no hp, your toughness determines how well you take a hit, your defense determines how well you avoid a hit, your saves defend you against certain powers, attributes only directly modify your skills and saves they have absolutely nothing to do with how well you can fight (example; a strength 8 character can punch a fly out of the air), there's no tactical movement, special options like tripping and grappling actually make sense, and there's a hard limit on how high your attributes can be based on your power level in order to reduce min/maxers and power gamers (for example, a power level 10 character can never have more than a certain amount of attack until he increases in level).

The bulk of the game's rules are in the power creation. Once you go through those you can skim over the combat section and since you're familiar with D20 it should come easy.

As far as it being superhero centered, yes, it was meant for high powered gaming where a fresh character off the chopping block can teleport anywhere in the universe. If your anime game includes mecha and shonen stuff like Naruto and Dragonball then M&M is for you. If you're into realistic anime like Monster then you best go with a more realistic/lower leveled system.

[Tengu_temp]

I dunno guys. I've been looking over the M&M 2nd ed core book, and it really doesn't look like what I want. Pretty rules-intensive, pretty superhero-centric (maybe I'm just being short-sighted, but it really does seem to be just what they're going for), and built on the same six stupid D&D ability scores that have been bugging me for twenty years.

I admit, I'm not the kind of gaming genius who can just pick up a book and gauge accurately how playable it is. I may wind up buying a copy and looking at it more closely, but right now, I really don't see what the appeal is.

M&M is technically a superhero game, but its mechanics are universal enough to fit almost any other setting, too. And, honestly, most RPG characters are superheroes in fantasy settings anyway.
I wouldn't call it rules-heavy. Character creation can overwhelm a newbie, but it's actually pretty simple - probably the simplest from all universal systems, apart from the extremely rules-light ones like Risus. The actual gameplay is very fast, unless someone decides to engage in grappling - it's only slightly less complicated than in DND.
Finally, game balance - M&M is not the most balanced game ever and the DM still has to check character sheets in order to look for cheese, but most of the cheese in this game is easy to spot, and as long as you hit the caps in attack, damage, defense and toughness, you know that you will be at least effective. In BESM, on the other hand, game balance is a joke - from two characters created on the same amount of points one can be indestrudtable and powerful enough to destroy a planet with a single attack, and another will be a total loser who can't succeed at anything substantial.

Tl;dr version - the "fun and easy" part of Tri-stat is an illusion. If you don't like M&M, you'll most probably like BESM even less.


Indeed, what the M&M fans forget to tell is that it is one of the most(if not the more) complex systems out there.


I disagree. It's complex by standards of class-based games, where you just choose your class, stats, some feats or other similar things and voila. By standards of universal systems? Not in the slightest.

[Doc Roc]

Disagree again. Other than GURPS, it's pretty heavy duty for a universal\class-less system. Many-many are lighter-weight, few are heavier. Heavier is basically gurps, HERO, and NWOD, but NWOD is also god-awful from a rules-perspective and only heavy due to the Ten-Thousand Book Swarm effect. So it doesn't count.

I maintain two different free universal and class-less systems, and like most, they're under 20 pages before addition of settings. And I prefer Savage Worlds to the systems I, myself, maintain.

[jmbrown]

Disagree again. Other than GURPS, it's pretty heavy duty for a universal\class-less system. Many-many are lighter-weight, few are heavier. Heavier is basically gurps, HERO, and NWOD, but NWOD is also god-awful from a rules-perspective and only heavy due to the Ten-Thousand Book Swarm effect. So it doesn't count.

I maintain two different free universal and class-less systems, and like most, they're under 20 pages before addition of settings. And I prefer Savage Worlds to the systems I, myself, maintain.

"published" systems perhaps. M&M is probably the easiest and most in depth system for creating characters of that power level. Savage Worlds and FATE are great systems but designed for action movie heroes, not over powered supers and aliens.

It all depends on the style Blackjackg is going for. If he's drawing inspiration from One Piece and Gurren Lagann then M&M is pretty much designed for those high powered games without forcing you to memorize tons of additional rules like the more complicated systems.

[Doc Roc]

Try Necessary Evil, the excellent super hero expansion for Savage Worlds. What kind of generalist system would it be if it didn't have That Over-powered Expansion? :)

[Raum]

If you want even higher powered games while keeping the rules moderately light, I suggest looking at Wild Talents (ORE system and only $10) or pick up Suzerain (currently a free beta) for Savage Worlds.

[Doc Roc]

I've heard of Suzerain! Any good?

[Raum]

I've heard of Suzerain! Any good?It's interesting. All I've done is skim through the pdf...which is here (http://brainradio.com/talismanshop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=8&products_id=154) if you're interested in looking at it. :smallsmile:

[Blackjackg]

Thanks for all the feedback, but after skimming through the various systems suggested, I've decided to go with BESM after all. The recruitment post is here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=121604), if people really are interested.