[d20 Rebirth] School Distribution

[Fax Celestis]

So I'm looking at the (monstrous) task of reschooling spells, and I think I've got my final set for schools. Do I miss any spells or types of spells with these five schools of magic?

Alchemy: This school covers changing something from one thing to another, as well as animation effects. (Specialist: Alchemist)
Conduction: This school covers elemental and energy effects, including positive and negative energy and force effects. (Specialist: Conductor)
Mindsight: This school covers mind-affecting effects, telepathy, and illusion. (Specialist: Sighted)
Oculus : This school covers perception, foresight, and curses. (Specialist: Oracle)
Passage: This school covers summoning, calling, and teleportation. (Specialist: Traveler)

The "sixth school" is Universal. Spells of the Universal school are simple spells that have multiple effects or are generally unlike other spells. It includes dispelling and prestidigitator effects.

How wizards are going to work in d20r is that each will be forced to specialize, like a psion: there will be a general "wizard" list that is rather short and not focused, and then all wizards will gain access to particular spells based upon their specialization.

[SurlySeraph]

Looks good to me. You may have to play around a bit with the fluff of some spells to make them fit, but that works pretty well.

[Fax Celestis]

I'm not quite sure I'm happy with "Mesmerism" and "Thaumaturgy", but I like "Enchantment" (or "Mentalism") and "Transmutation" even less.

[Keld Denar]

Stealing from the Elder Scrolls...what about Mysticism?

Just a thought....

[Fax Celestis]

Stealing from the Elder Scrolls...what about Mysticism?

Just a thought....

In stead of "Mesmerism"? Maybe.

[RTGoodman]

Hmm... looking through the spells in the SRD, and there are a few I'm not sure about how they fit: shatter, knock, flight spells, rope trick/magnificent mansion/whatever, contagion, and maybe the power word line.

I mean, I guess they could be Universal or moved into a similar school (rope trick series into Conjuration; contagion in Elementalism; etc.), but those are the ones that I had the most trouble trying to place.


As far as school names, I don't know about an alt for Mesmerism, but what about Transfiguration for Thaumaturgy? Eh, just throwing it out there.

[Fax Celestis]

Hmm... looking through the spells in the SRD, and there are a few I'm not sure about how they fit: shatter, knock, flight spells, rope trick/magnificent mansion/whatever, contagion, and maybe the power word line.

I mean, I guess they could be Universal or moved into a similar school (rope trick series into Conjuration; contagion in Elementalism; etc.), but those are the ones that I had the most trouble trying to place.Hm. Okay, I'll look into those.


As far as school names, I don't know about an alt for Mesmerism, but what about Transfiguration for Thaumaturgy? Eh, just throwing it out there.That's a possibility.

[Doc Roc]

Psychaturgy and Transfiguration sound pretty fantastic in my opinion.

So, Fax, are you done laying spells into schools? Or have you not started? Are you doing non-core stuff? Or just core?

[Fax Celestis]

Psychaturgy and Transfiguration sound pretty fantastic in my opinion."Psychaturgy" has a neat ring to it.


So, Fax, are you done laying spells into schools? Or have you not started?Not started yet: want to get schools set out before I do.
Are you doing non-core stuff? Or just core?Core-only for now. Mostly because I'm planning on releasing this as a product so I need to stick with the OGL. Still, if you can think of a non-core spell as an example of a spell that doesn't fit within those schools, let me know so I can plan ahead.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Transformation or Mutation, perhaps

[dariathalon]

As for the names of your schools, take a hint from white wolf. Pick up a thesaurus and grab the most obscure synonyms you can find.

[Claudius Maximus]

Where would Animate Dead and similar spells fit into this? It doesn't really sit right with me in Elementalism. How about a school that deals with spirits or souls or what have you? You could add some necromancy and maybe Animate Objects to your Mesmerism school and give it that sort of theme.

I'm also haing trouble thinking of where a lot of Abjuration spells would go. Banishment seems like it could work in Conjuration, or it could be a Universal spell. What about Repulsion or Protection from X?

[Flickerdart]

Where would Animate Dead and similar spells fit into this? It doesn't really sit right with me in Elementalism. How about a school that deals with spirits or souls or what have you? You could add some necromancy and maybe Animate Objects to your Mesmerism school and give it that sort of theme.

I'm also haing trouble thinking of where a lot of Abjuration spells would go. Banishment seems like it could work in Conjuration, or it could be a Universal spell. What about Repulsion or Protection from X?
Animate Dead would be Thaumaturgy.

[Fax Celestis]

Mesmerism changed to Mysticism, also includes hexes and curses now.

[Thinker]

I'm not keen on the Clairsentience name...it seems like Divination would have worked just fine and is more common (but that may be the point of changing it).

What schools would necromancy, animate objects, communication with various creatures (plants, animals, the dead, etc), and alternate forms of travel fall under?

I also recommend Morphism as an alternate name for Thaumaturgy. If you'd like a Norse kick to it, Seidh might be a good one, too.

[Set]

Steal from Calvin, call the transmutation college Transmogrification.

[erikun]

Illusions are Clairsentience?

What about the mind-affecting illusions (patterns) and the shadowstuff manipulation? For that matter, will Shadow Conjuration/Evocation even exist if manipulating shadowstuff is already an Evocation/Elementalism effect?

How about Bear's Endurance, Fox's Cunning, etc.?

Blur? (Clairsentience?) Blink? (Conjuration?)

Silence?

[Godskook]

My vote is to call the transmutation school alchemy. Just a thought.

[Fax Celestis]

Illusions are Clairsentience?

Conjuration. You're "making" an illusion.

[Xefas]

Animate Dead would be Thaumaturgy.

It sounds like it could be Elementalism too. Depends if you're using Negative Energy to animate them (and thus shunting that energy into the corpses via Elementalism) or just animating them like you would a chair or a table, in which case it looks Thaumaturgical (is that a word?).

[dariathalon]

My vote is to call the transmutation school alchemy. Just a thought.

It was actually the first thing that came to my mind too, but I think it would be too easily confused with Craft(Alchemy). I mean we wouldn't want to get into another one of these situations (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0012.html).

[Devils_Advocate]

Conjuration. You're "making" an illusion.
But... as written, Conjuration only covers moving existing things around, not creating new things. Creating new forms is Thaumaturgy's deal.

And Clairsentience covers meddling with perception. So illusions are included under Clairsentience. Seems more balanced that way, frankly; folding Illusion into Conjuration or Transmutation makes whichever a god school. But combining Divination and Illusion into one school of Informationmancy works fine. (Gnomes would love this school.)

Actually, it looks like none of your schools technically includes question-answering spells, although I assume that Oracles are supposed to get those.

[Thane of Fife]

I think Mysticism implies more like your description of clairsentience than your mesmerism.

Personally, I think you should go for less esoteric names, and try to use ones with wizardly connotations.

I guess I dislike your specialist names - I don't think they convey the appropriate images. As such, I'd probably use the names Mysticism, Conjuration, Sorcery (I'd like to have Mage here, but can't think of a school name), Enchantment, and Alchemy, in that order. Thaumaturge works too, though. I'm not sure what you have against Enchantment.

[PirateMonk]

Mysticism doesn't really have a connotation of messing with minds. Psychaturgy could work, though it sounds a little pretentious. Whatever you decide to call it, it could work for illusions, if they're mental constructs rather than light tricks. If they are light tricks, they could fit into Elementalism, Conjuration, or Clairsentience.

[afroakuma]

I'm not sure what you have against Enchantment.

His problem with Enchantment is that "enchanted" is a catch-all adjective used to describe everything magical, and most specifically magic in the form of a static or permanent arcane effect, such as an enchanted sword.

Myself, I'd be inclined to stick to Evocation instead of Elementalism, Divination instead of Clairsentience, maybe Influence as a substitute for Mysticism/Mesmerism, and Alteration instead of Thaumaturgy.

[Doc Roc]

Remember, people, it's not just about how good things sound, it's about how we can actually balance things by slotting them into schools.

Justification is great, a game that's fun is better.

[Thane of Fife]

Remember, people, it's not just about how good things sound, it's about how we can actually balance things by slotting them into schools.

Justification is great, a game that's fun is better.

If a game's style doesn't interest me, I won't play it no matter how well balanced it is. Names could easily make or break my enjoyment of a system.


His problem with Enchantment is that "enchanted" is a catch-all adjective used to describe everything magical, and most specifically magic in the form of a static or permanent arcane effect, such as an enchanted sword.

I suppose that that's fair enough. I don't like Influence, though, and Mesmerism is too modern for me. Manipulation, perhaps? Mentalism? Sententialism?

[afroakuma]

I suppose that that's fair enough. I don't like Influence, though, and Mesmerism is too modern for me. Manipulation, perhaps? Mentalism? Sententialism?

Manipulation could be anything, though. It could be Transmutation. Mentalism gives you a Mentalist and an Elementalist, which is just silly. As for Sententialism, now you're just having fun with us, aren't you?

I considered Influence because that's what everything in the school does. It either creates or imposes influence, for good, neutral or evil. Sure, the specialist sounds like an unpleasant disease, but it's spot-on and doesn't focus solely on the Enchantment component.

Fine; how about Inculcation?

[Morty]

I think that if some spells could fall under two schools it would make things a lot easier. I don't know how that would affect balance, but it would remove many "X should be in school Y, not Z" and "Where to put this spell" arguments.

[Zeta Kai]

Prophecy = Clairsentience; Specialist: Oracle/Prophet
Invocation = Conjuration; Specialist: Conjurer/Summoner
Elementalism; Specialist: Elementalist
Enchanting = Mysticism; Specialist: Mystic/Enchanter
Metamorphosis = Thaumaturgy; Specialist: Thaumaturge/Transmuter
Universal; Specialist: Generalist

[Thane of Fife]

Manipulation could be anything, though. It could be Transmutation. Mentalism gives you a Mentalist and an Elementalist, which is just silly. As for Sententialism, now you're just having fun with us, aren't you?

I considered Influence because that's what everything in the school does. It either creates or imposes influence, for good, neutral or evil. Sure, the specialist sounds like an unpleasant disease, but it's spot-on and doesn't focus solely on the Enchantment component.

Fine; how about Inculcation?

Witchcraft? Glamor? As for Sententialism, I love me some pseudo-latin!

Influence doesn't sound magical enough.

And I really dislike mystic referring to enchantment/charm stuff - I don't see the connection there at all.

[Doc Roc]

Me either. Still pulling for Psychaturgy. OR you could just be honest with yourself, rip out the entire magic system, move as much of it as you want to salvage over into psionics, and call it a day.

[Fax Celestis]

Updated the top.

[Indon]

What school does dismissal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dismissal.htm) fall under - Conjuration? Generally, abjuration seems to be tricky in your system, as it subdivides into at least elementalism (prismatic wall), conjuration (dismissal), mindstuffs (Mind Blank), and probably more. You might have a problem with more esoteric abjuration effects.

There's also the Abjuration-specific "Can not push barriers" rule. How will your new system inherit this rule?

Okay, name idea: 'Cognimancy' for the mindstuffs school?

Also, are you dividing divine spells into these same schools?

[DragoonWraith]

I don't really like Fortunata. I do like Mysticism for that school. But it's getting rather clear that agreement on this is going to be hard to come by...

[Indon]

Okay, Magic Circle and other alignment-oriented spells (Like Holy Word): Universal, or what?

[Fax Celestis]

Okay, Magic Circle and other alignment-oriented spells (Like Holy Word): Universal, or what?

Probably. Or they may just be disappearing. Mechanical alignment is lame.

[afroakuma]

Witchcraft? Glamor? As for Sententialism, I love me some pseudo-latin!

Influence doesn't sound magical enough.

And I really dislike mystic referring to enchantment/charm stuff - I don't see the connection there at all.

In magical terminology, Glamour would seem to be the closest. Shame glamers already got that one.

You didn't render verdict on Inculcation.

And no, Fortunata doesn't get any cookies.


Mechanical alignment is lame.

...unless you drive a car.

[Morty]

I know it's kind of early to do so, but I'd suggest making Teleport or its equivalent(s) an universal spell, so that Conjurers aren't favored like they are in 3.5 Maybe they could get stronger teleportation than other wizards do. Also, may I try to fit all 1st level core Wizard spells into those new schools as they are right now to see how it all works?

[Thane of Fife]

In magical terminology, Glamour would seem to be the closest. Shame glamers already got that one.

You didn't render verdict on Inculcation.

And no, Fortunata doesn't get any cookies.

I figured that you were being as serious with Inculcation as I was with Sententialism.

[DragoonWraith]

Yeah, I've always considered Teleportation a very strange inclusion in Conjuration. Conjuration, to me, is about extra-planar effects, namely calling things from other planes to you. Plane Shift, even, to me, doesn't really fit in Conjuration...

[Human Paragon 3]

Fortunata sounds really out of place up against the others. I'm not particularly fond of Elementalism either.

How about Mentalism?

[Fax Celestis]

Fortunata sounds really out of place up against the others. I'm not particularly fond of Elementalism either.

How about Mentalism?
Then you have Mentalism and Elementalism.

Though if I swap Elementalism for something, I suppose I could use Mentalism.

[Human Paragon 3]

How about dynamism? http://www.google.com/search?q=define%3A+dynamism&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

Specialist could be called a Dynamist, or a Dynamo which I think would be really awesome.

[tonberrian]

I like Dynamism. That's cool.

However, thaumaturgy just means magic or miracles - the word itself doesn't describe the school at all, even worse than transmutation. Transfiguration could describe the school, especially with the context of Harry Potter.

Also, Universal is a crappy name for what is left, even if it describes it perfectly - the word itself doesn't have anything to do with magic. Now, if you choose transfiguration over thaumaturgy, the latter would be available to describe Universal magics.

Furthermore, you could change the base class to "Thaumaturgist" and distinguish it from the crowds of wizards out there, giving a slight exotic air without changing the basic flavor of the class.

[Fax Celestis]

Another update. Looking for a name for Thaumaturgy now. Never mind, got it.

[Doc Roc]

Revision := not_so_hot

[Fax Celestis]

Revision := not_so_hot

khaaaaaaaan

[Human Paragon 3]

May I humbly suggest Revisor over Visionary? I think it's a lot more descriptive of the school.

Also, I thought Transmogrification, which somebody said above, sounded cool.

[erikun]

Forgive me for being nitpicky, but just what is in the Prohpecy school? I know its a bit of a vague point, but covering "perception, foresight, telepathy" I would think that completely sensory illusions (ghost sound, silent image, invisibility, hallucinatory terrian) would fit quite well.

As it stands, it sounds like Prophecy covers the old Divination, minus Foresight (which would be a Fortunata altering fate) and possibly minus the Stone Tell (which could be Conjuration). I could see stuff like Sending/Dream fitting in, along with Darkvision.

Conjuration would obviously cover Conjuration, probably minus the orb/cloud lines. I can see some old Divination here, namely any that request answers from an outsider/Speak with Dead. I've never quite understood why Teleportation is in Conjuration, rather than just being Universal.

Dynamism clearly covers Evocation, along with the "blasty" Conjuration and damaging Necromancy. Some shadowcraft Illusions and Prismatic X would also be Dynamism, as I understand it.

Mentalism would be Enchantment and just about any Mind-Affecting spells, probably including those that normally work on undead. As stated above, it looks like Mentalism gets the really good Divination "fate altering" spells.

Thaumaturgy sounds like parts of Transmutation, along with parts of Necromancy. Universal sounds like the catch-all school, slightly expanded to accept Dispel Magic and so on.


I've played Diviners before, and while I do like the wizard specialist, I will admit their spelllist leaves a lot to be desired. While and Evoker says "yay more blast!" and a Transmuter says "yay more buffs!", I've felt like my Diviners usually say "Well, I wasn't going to cast Necromancy anyways. Perhaps I should randomly cast Locate Object today, as I'm not really planning on using anything else."

I'm just wondering what an Oracle is supposed to do in this system, if the are a nerfed Diviner.

[Belobog]

The names seem to be coming along at a good pace; they're all fairly short, direct, and have that sort of 'pop' that makes them memorable (Revision and Dynamism, in particular, are strong). The only one I'd say is the odd man out now would be Conjuration, it seems sort of stiff and awkward compared to the new set.

You know, I've always liked the word Ensorcel...

[Fax Celestis]

I'm just wondering what an Oracle is supposed to do in this system, if the are a nerfed Diviner.
Some of the old abjurations are going into Prophecy.

[erikun]

Hmm, fair enough. I guess I'll wait and see how it turns out. (You do have a record for good work, after all.)

Where would spells like Disintegrate (not really energy manipulation, not really summoning anything, not really changing something), Invisibility Purge, Geas, or Death to Undead fit in? I realize that Invisibility Purge isn't even a wizard spell, but if the school matters (Spell Focus, Mind Blank) it could be important.

[Renchard]

It seems to me that Conjuration and Transmutation are the two broadest, most general purpose schools. Perhaps they should be the ones to be broken up, and the other schools should be salvaged?

1) Prophecy - The school of visions, forewarning, and knowledge of the words of power that control creatures and forces from the planes beyond. The Oracle knows spells such as true strike, contact other plane, summon monster, and banishment. (A combination of divination, summoning, and the extraplanar focused spells of abjuration.)

2) Enchantment - The school of deceptions and fey trickery. The Enchanter specializes in spells that bind magic to the mortal form. Mind-affecting spells such as confusion, enhancements such as bull's strength, and changes of forms such as spells of the polymorph subschool are all in the Enchanter's purview. (Combination of enchantment, necromancy fear spells, and transmutation buffs and form changes. Enchantment spells should target creatures, not objects or areas.)

3) Mysticism - The school of manipulation of spiritual energy into a more concrete form. The Mystic can create wards out of light (prismatic sphere, invisibility), shelters out of thin air (tiny hut, magnificent mansion), and fire bolts of raw magical energy (magic missile). (Most illusions and abjurations would fall into this school. In general, if it creates a non-real effect that persists but isn't permanent, it would be Mysticism. )

4) Elementalism - The school of raw energy and destruction. The Elementalist (or Invoker) channels magical energy to create tangible results of natural materials. Big blow-up spells like fireball or lightning bolt and healing energy such as cure light wounds are Elemental spells. (Evocation and Conjuration spells that create instantaneous effects fall into Elemental. In general, instantaneous or short duration effects that aren't either pure magical force or pure matter fall into Elemental.)

5) Artifice - The school of manipulating magical energy to affect and change raw matter. If it targets objects with a temporary magical effect, or permanently changes an object, the spell falls under an Artificer's control. Example spells are magic weapon, magic vestment, animate object, and wall of stone. The Artificer can also divert magical energy into the earth, giving access to spells such as dispel magic. Artifice spells also work well on undead, as they are composed of non-living matter. (Artifice consists mainly of transmutation spells that affect non-living material, or spells that imbue objects (also non-sentient plants, undead and constructs) with magical energy. Some abjurations, and conjuration(creation) spells are also Artifice. Spells with long duration or permanent effects tend to be Artifice.)

[erikun]

Another interpretation, looking at your school selections.

Prophecy could be allowing/blocking knowledge, Conjuration would be allowing/blocking travel, Dynamism would be allowing/blocking energy. Mentalism is the allowing/blocking of changes to the mind, while Revision is the allowing/blocking of changes to the physical.

Thus, each school would be the "master" of their respect domain. Sure, any wizard may be able to throw fire around, but a Dynamo can throw around the best fire spells, not to mention being an expert at warding against fire.

Just throwing around ideas. :smallbiggrin:

[DragoonWraith]

Ooh, I like Erikun's version.

Also, another negative vote... I really should come up with some useful ideas instead of just commenting on the ones I don't like, but... yeah, "Revision" does not sound magical in the slightest.

[Zeta Kai]

Yay, some of my suggestions were used! I feel useful! :smallbiggrin:

[afroakuma]

Conjuration: This school covers summoning, calling, and teleportation. (Specialist: Conjurer)

Honestly, I think this one's a lock.


Dynamism: This school covers elemental and energy effects, including positive and negative energy and force effects. (Specialist: Dynamo)

Dynamo? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamo)


http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i89/Rei_sama/Rockman%20Megaman%20X/Dynamo.jpg
Dynamo
Apparently he's a wizard now, too.


Mentalism: This school covers mental affects (beneficial or otherwise), curses, telepathy, and hexing, and functions by altering the course of fate. (Specialist: Mentalist)

...and does glurghhblthewhatnow?

Still hate this name.


Prophecy: This school covers perception, foresight, and heightened perception (including some defensive buffs). (Specialist: Oracle)

This is the school of redundancy, foresight and heightened redundancy? :smalltongue: Currently, I can't fix in my head "Prophecy" creating any of the abjuration effects that immediately come to mind, but we shall wait and see.


Revision: This school covers changing something from one thing to another, as well as animation effects. (Specialist: Visionary)

...well, it's different from all the other suggestions. It's really not a "magical" word though.

[Fax Celestis]

...and does glurghhblthewhatnow?Leftover from "Fortunata".


Still hate this name.Out of the suggestions thus far, it fits the best.


...well, it's different from all the other suggestions. It's really not a "magical" word though.
There is that. "Metamorphosis" is my second choice.

[Human Paragon 3]

Morphology?

[dariathalon]

Honestly, I'd change conjuration. Only because it is already the name of a school of magic in standard D&D. I could easily see it confusing people. The only way I'd suggest keeping it would be if exactly the same spells were going into the school, which I would sincerely doubt.

[Fax Celestis]

Let's try this again. Shuffled some stuff, redid the names.

[afroakuma]

Alchemy: This school covers changing something from one thing to another, as well as animation effects. (Specialist: Alchemist)

Flat no. The concept of an alchemist has very specific connotations, which this class will almost certainly eschew in their entirety.


Conduction: This school covers elemental and energy effects, including positive and negative energy and force effects. (Specialist: Conductor)

This sounds more like a bard prestige class, a train operator or a piece of electrical equipment.


Mindsight: This school covers mind-affecting effects, telepathy, and illusion. (Specialist: Sighted)

...:smallsigh:


Oculus : This school covers perception, foresight, and curses. (Specialist: Oracle)

Latin? What was wrong with English?


Passage: This school covers summoning, calling, and teleportation. (Specialist: Traveler)

Different, certainly, but it sort of seems like you've begun leaking into the psionics school of thought with some of these names.

[Fax Celestis]

You, sir, are impossible to please.

[DragoonWraith]

...I tend to agree with him...

Though I do like Oculus. Then again, I also like Latin...

[SlyGuyMcFly]

*Scratches head*

This is a tough one, certainly. I guess I'll throw in my thoughts and suggestions in:


Alchemy: This school covers changing something from one thing to another, as well as animation effects. (Specialist: Alchemist)

Don't like it so much. Alchemy brings up images of bubbling flasks and dripping alembics, not a wizards transforming stuff. Personally, Transmutation seems the best fit for this school. Metamorphosis works too.


Conduction: This school covers elemental and energy effects, including positive and negative energy and force effects. (Specialist: Conductor)

Got nothing new for this one either, besides saying that I like Evocation or Elementalism better than Conduction.



Mindsight: This school covers mind-affecting effects, telepathy, and illusion. (Specialist: Sighted)

How about Psychomancy? Seems to be the mind magic school.

Oculus : This school covers perception, foresight, and curses. (Specialist: Oracle)

I'm not too sure on this one, but I think the name would eventually grow on me. It's just that I have the feeling there is a better word out there, just waiting for somebody to come up with it...

Passage: This school covers summoning, calling, and teleportation. (Specialist: Traveler)

Not too sure on a name for this one. Dimensionism? Planaturgy?

[afroakuma]

You, sir, are impossible to please.

I am indeed! Here's why:


...I tend to agree with him...

Autocratic perfectionism for the win!

Alright, I think it's time we break this down, Erfworld-style:

Changemancy
What It Does: Changes the shape, abilities or properties of creatures or things.
Descended From: Transmutation
Example Spells: Alter self, animate rope, enlarge person, polymorph, spider climb
Example Names: Alchemy, Alteration, Artifice, Metamorphosis, Modification, Morphism, Morphology, Mutation, Permutation, Reformation, Revision, Thaumaturgy, Transfiguration, Transformation, Transmogrification, Transmutation, Variation
afroakuma's Pick: Alteration or Variation

Shockmancy
What It Does: Makes a kaboom in your favorite energy flavor. Might also do other things involving said energy flavors, but who cares? KABOOM! :smallbiggrin:
Descended From: Evocation, most of Necromancy and those snippets of Conjuration and Transmutation dealing with elements
Example Spells: Fireball, lightning bolt, magic missile, pyrotechnics, vampiric touch
Example Names: Aspiration, Conduction, Dynamism, Elementalism, Evocation, Sorcery
afroakuma's Pick: Evocation

Thinkamancy
What It Does: Makes thoughts, templates thoughts, forces thoughts, changes thoughts, distorts thoughts, improves thoughts and gives you things to think about
Descended From: Enchantment, currently including Illusion
Example Spells: Charm person, dominate person, insanity, mage's lucubration, phantasmal killer
Example Names: Cognimancy, Domination, Enchanting, Enchantment, Fascination, Fortunata, Glamour, Inculcation, Influence, Manipulation, Mentalism, Mesmerism, Mindsight, Motivation, Mysticism, Predilection, Psychaturgy, Psychomancy, Sententialism, Thrall, Witchcraft
afroakuma's Pick: Hoo boy. I see why Wizards went for the easy one; and in doing so, they robbed us of decent alternatives. Motivation seems like the best bet, but even that's weak.

Predictamancy
What It Does: Gathers information, foretells the future, creates magical defenses, conveys insight bonuses and spies on the neighbors
Descended From: Divination, with Abjuration on the side
Example Spells: Clairvoyance, detect thoughts, nondetection, scry, true seeing
Example Names: Clairsentience, Divination, Mysticism, Oculus, Prophecy, Sortilege
afroakuma's Pick: Divination

Stuffamancy
What It Does: Shapes, creates, images, prints, slices, dices and makes Julienne fries!
Descended From: Conjuration, currently with some Illusion factored in
Example Spells: Glitterdust, minor image, mount, rainbow pattern, summon monster VI
Example Names: Conjuration, Dimensionalism, Passage, Planaturgy
afroakuma's Pick: Conjuration

[Cedrass]

Am I the only one thinking actually using the Erfworld way isn't that bad and actually sounds kind of ok? :smalleek:

Edit: Aside from Stuffamancy... This one sounds silly.

[Draz74]

Am I the only one thinking actually using the Erfworld way isn't that bad and actually sounds kind of ok? :smalleek:

No. I was thinking the same thing.

[Belobog]

Third for the Erfworld names. :smalltongue:

Though...maybe rename Stuffamancy into...Makeamancy? Might be a little a better.

[afroakuma]

Third for the Erfworld names. :smalltongue:

Though...maybe rename Stuffamancy into...Makeamancy? Might be a little a better.

I'm sorry; technically Stuffamancy was a cheat anyway. Summoning in Erfworld is handled by Findamancy, which sounds like divination magic, which... etc.

I almost went with Carnymancy for it. :smallamused:

[Zeta Kai]

You, sir, are impossible to please.

Tell me about it. :smallsigh::smallwink:

[Belobog]

I'm sorry; technically Stuffamancy was a cheat anyway. Summoning in Erfworld is handled by Findamancy, which sounds like divination magic, which... etc.

I almost went with Carnymancy for it. :smallamused:

I gotta say, Carnymancy would have sold me on it wholesale. Not like that was hard, but it just really goes that extra mile. :smallbiggrin:

Serious suggestion: The names should probably have a common root to tie them together as 'names for schools of magic'. That way, even if people don't know what the word means, when they hear '-mancy', they'll think 'magic'. I dislike '-ation' and '-ism' in relation to this; they don't sound very magic...y, though they are the prime candidates for it.
[/serious]

Sortilege is the best word on that list. It's official.

[Cedrass]

"Stuffamancy" creates thing, why not simply call it Creatamancy?

Edit: Just saw Makemancy, which I like better.

[afroakuma]

Serious suggestion: The names should probably have a common root to tie them together as 'names for schools of magic'. That way, even if people don't know what the word means, when they hear '-mancy', they'll think 'magic'. I dislike '-ation' and '-ism' in relation to this; they don't sound very magic...y, though they are the prime candidates for it.
[/serious]

That's kind of where I've been going, except that instead of -mancy (which means divination) or -turgy (which is not a real suffix at all and also sounds silly) I focused on the consistent -ation, a suffix which is relatively common, easy to make into a specialist noun and even simple to translate.

Were it the -ation set, you would have:

Conjuration
Divination
Evocation
Motivation
Variation (or Alteration)


Sortilege is the best word on that list. It's official.

You know, I thought the same thing. I milled through thesauri to pre-empt some other fitting words, hit that one and was like "Why have I not heard of this before?"

[Fax Celestis]

Khaaan. Screw all this school crap. I got a better idea last night, thanks to one Starsinger.

[SlyGuyMcFly]

Iiiinteresting... Can't wait to see it :smallsmile:

[DragoonWraith]

Agreed! Could be very interesting, indeed.

[Morty]

Sounds ominous.

[Fenix_of_Doom]

Khaaan. Screw all this school crap. I got a better idea last night, thanks to one Starsinger.

awww and I was just about to do suggestions.

[Renchard]

Khaaan. Screw all this school crap. I got a better idea last night, thanks to one Starsinger.

Is 3 weeks long enough to ask what it is again?

[lesser_minion]

If I may make a suggestion (even though you've thrown out schools):

Guidance (spells of leadership and command - some aid in decision-making, some enforce the caster's will on others) Alteration (spells of change - some disguise their subject, some turn their subject into a nine hundred gigaparsec tall monstrosity) Disruption (destructive spells, used to weaken, debilitate, damage, slay and annihilate things) Warding (spells of protection. Some protect from a specific kind of supernatural threat, some protect from direct threats. Also covers spells that control people by threatening them with a really nasty punishment) Confusion (spells of deception - generally used to convince others that something is the case, to mess up Guidance spells and so on).


I don't think it's too unreasonable to leave creation, summoning and renewal spells out of spell lists altogether - all of them can quite easily be considered sufficiently dramatic to warrant a mechanic of their own.

Those names also sound reasonably exotic, even though they are hardly unusual. Annoyingly, there are a few existing spells with the same or similar names, and some of them might end up in different categories.

[Person_Man]

For what it's worth, I'm hugely in favor of forcing casters to specialize. The best thing you can do to balance any caster is to limit his spell list. That's why the Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Warmage, Warlock, etc, are so much more balanced then the Wizard, Druid, Cleric, Archivist, etc.

My only suggestion is that when you go to divine up spells, that you do it by role: Blaster, Summoner, Mind Control, Buffer, Utility, general. That way each specialist has something special and different to do. It seems like your catagorizations are pretty close. But if the fluff of a spell doesn't fit with the role, then I suggest just changing the fluff. There's no reason to unbalance your classes just because of the description of a spell, especially when you're re-writing everything.

Keep up the great work Fax.

[Lappy9000]

Forced caster specialization seems like a great idea, although I believe Fax already intended to due this judging from the d20r Table of Contents.

Afro's summary is marvelous, however, I eagerly await Fax's new schools.

[Fax Celestis]

Is 3 weeks long enough to ask what it is again?

Teaser Tidbit:
Think less "schools of magic" like in the PHB, and more "schools of magic" like ToB Disciplines. Except, y'know. More than nine of them.

[Zovc]

Teaser Tidbit:
Think less "schools of magic" like in the PHB, and more "schools of magic" like ToB Disciplines. Except, y'know. More than nine of them.

I don't like the idea of more than nine (thousand) "schools of magic." I think that, if you split magic into a number of groups (no more than six, I'd think) with clear-cut roles, you can make a few interesting classes and have them be balanced.

If a player doesn't want to have to specialize, either have them multiclass, play your version of a sorcerer, or perhaps (and take this suggestion with a grain of salt) include a feat that can only be taken so often that allows you to add a spell from another school to your spell list.

For example, you've got Conjurer, Abjurer, Transmuter, Evoker, Diviner, Enchanter, Illusionist, and Necromancer all off of core.

Things I've seen games do:
Split direct damage into two groups, area and direct. Give the area class the ability to either control movement or protect themselves (walls/rings of fire/ice, anyone?). Give the direct damage class a way to crowd control things (freeze their feet to the ground, freeze them in place, knock them down, etc).

Just being a healer is boring. I've seen games increase soloing potential by giving them pets; but essentially, allow them to do more than specialized things like healing others and killing undead... when neither of those need to be done, what can you do?
(Not that you can have fun as a blaster when there's nothing to blow up, but blowing stuff up is [for most] more fun than running from person to person healing them as they need.)

Most games don't do anything with divination.

Abjuration and Transmutation aren't usually alone--you'd have to make these more appealing on their own (not that they really aren't, but they don't present themselves as fun).

Abjuration in Dungeons and Dragons can't push people, spells break if you push back. I'd say nix that. Allow players to break their shield in order to shove people away, that not only gives you a new layer of tactics, but you can also just include pushing in abjuration.

Transmuters should be okay combatants. Thatway, they can either turn a weaker person into another okay combatant, themselves into a good combatant, or a good combatant into a great one. Think of a war domain cleric, then toss in cool abilities like turning stuff to stone.
(Oh, I think transmutation and alchemy should stay separate.)

I think it'd be interesting to give the Necromancer a similar class feature to animal companion. (or perhaps Leadership) Give the player a "pet" undead (or I suppose it could be an undead pet, zombie dogs!). If negative energy hurts the living and heals the undead, the Necromancer is actually able to heal their pet. You could give necromancy spells that improve the undead, or "vampiric" buffs that require you to either gift your physical abilities or drain them from something else.

...and Enchanting and Illusion can both make boring/weak classes on their own unless you give them super cool abilities (not sure what to suggest, though)... you could always just use the Beguiler, though, I love that class.

[Morty]

I think that comparision to ToB disciplines kind of implies a wizard won't have to use only one school of magic. That, or they won't be as focused as PHB schools. I wouldn't know, though, I'm just guessing.

[Eldan]

Well, I'm happy with any kind of distribution, really, as long as you manage to somehow preserve that scholarly feeling Wizards got through their spellbooks.

[DragoonWraith]

For what it's worth, I'm hugely in favor of forcing casters to specialize. The best thing you can do to balance any caster is to limit his spell list. That's why the Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Warmage, Warlock, etc, are so much more balanced then the Wizard, Druid, Cleric, Archivist, etc.

My only suggestion is that when you go to divine up spells, that you do it by role: Blaster, Summoner, Mind Control, Buffer, Utility, general. That way each specialist has something special and different to do. It seems like your catagorizations are pretty close. But if the fluff of a spell doesn't fit with the role, then I suggest just changing the fluff. There's no reason to unbalance your classes just because of the description of a spell, especially when you're re-writing everything.

Keep up the great work Fax.
I disagree with doing the divisions by role. Any class that can only be played one way is automatically boring, IMO.

[Fax Celestis]

I think that comparision to ToB disciplines kind of implies a wizard won't have to use only one school of magic. That, or they won't be as focused as PHB schools. I wouldn't know, though, I'm just guessing.

Exactly. It won't so much be "Enchantment", "Necromancy", and "Transmutation" as it will be "Words of Power", "Fiery Discorporation", and "Mind Over Matter". Schools (or "academies", as I've been calling them in my notes) will be thematic and limited, rather than attempt to be all-inclusive.

[Lappy9000]

Exactly. It won't so much be "Enchantment", "Necromancy", and "Transmutation" as it will be "Words of Power", "Fiery Discorporation", and "Mind Over Matter". Schools (or "academies", as I've been calling them in my notes) will be thematic and limited, rather than attempt to be all-inclusive.Well, that'll do a lot to fix the problems of what goes where. You'll probably still have to re-write a bunch of skills, though =/

[Renchard]

Exactly. It won't so much be "Enchantment", "Necromancy", and "Transmutation" as it will be "Words of Power", "Fiery Discorporation", and "Mind Over Matter". Schools (or "academies", as I've been calling them in my notes) will be thematic and limited, rather than attempt to be all-inclusive.

Good idea. Although I like your cleric, I wish cleric spells had been folded into the same system as this wizard concept. I always felt "innate" vs "learned" made for a more interesting dichotomy in magic than "arcane" vs "divine". That way, temples and religious institutions could be simply another type of academy.