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Glyde
2009-08-12, 07:10 PM
Alright. By RAW, I know how this would work, but I want to see what everyone's opinion on it would be.

Cleric of deity X attempts to turn a Lich. He rolls well enough that he'd succeed. However, the Lich worships the same deity.

Personally, the Lich (or other intelligent undead) is usually a villain of some sort, so evil laughter would be inserted at the time of the attempt, and nothing else would happen.

How would you rule it?

erikun
2009-08-12, 07:47 PM
Eh? What?

Are we talking 3.5e?

If you are saying "Suppose a Cleric of Hextor becomes a Lich, what happens?" then the answer is not much. They're still evil, they still worship the same deity. Unless the do something that would revoke their faith, they're still a cleric of their deity.

If you are saying "Suppose a Cleric of Pelor becomes a Lich, what happens?" then I'd say they're probably not a cleric of Pelor anymore. Becoming a Lich turns you evil, which is in conflict with your deity's alignment. This is, of course, assuming you'd managed to complete the ritual without becoming evil already.

If you are saying "Suppose a Cleric of Kelemvor, the undead-hating deity of death, becomes a Lich, what happens?" then I'd say you loose your clerical powers. I mean, while not in an alignment violation, you've pretty much gone directly against your deity's following and wouldn't be a cleric of Kelemvor anymore.

[EDIT]
Oh, turn a Lich, not turn into a Lich.

Well, turning a Lich works reguardless of what deity said Lich worships - turning is turning. Unless your deity opposes the destruction of undead (like perhaps a LG cleric of Wee Jas), I don't see how you would be affected.

Plus, any deity that would allow both evil (Lich) clerics and good (can use turning) cleric would be neutral, as so wouldn't have such a problem with it. You might run into problems if the Lich is a higher level priest in the faith than you, but that's a problem you'd run into by fighting it, not just turning it.

jmbrown
2009-08-12, 07:52 PM
Nothing in the rules say that undead worshipers are immune to their deities powers. An evil cleric channels negative energy to rebuke undead. Hextor would grant the cleric power to control the undead as normal. Lich's are pretty tough to turn/rebuke, but it still wouldn't stop the cleric from trying.

Nothing short of divine intervention (IE a DM fiat) can change this.

Irreverent Fool
2009-08-12, 08:12 PM
Unless the lich is a devout servant of its god or there is some polt-related reason that the turning shouldn't work, I don't think this is necessary. Otherwise you set a precedent for situations in which where a god of personal power's (treachery and backstabbing) clerics can't murder each other with their spells.

Not that that would be a bad thing, I guess.

If you're planning on doing this for the sake of keeping the encounter interesting as opposed to a single turning check, I say go for it.

obnoxious
sig

LibraryOgre
2009-08-12, 08:15 PM
Gods don't personally intervene in every exercise of their priest's powers. They grant them the powers, and expect them to make proper use of them.

Lord Loss
2009-08-12, 08:15 PM
I dunno. I'd say the God would sto pthe turning from working. But that's me.

I mean c'mon

Cleric Of Hextor: I rebuke you

Lich Cleric of hextor: !!!

Hextor: No, my bretheren , do not do battle, join and whip pelor's... err

Depends on the god.

Yuki Akuma
2009-08-12, 08:28 PM
Gods in D&D aren't omniscient. Unless it was really important to one of his schemes, Hextor probably wouldn't even notice it happening.

Oh sure, he could notice, if he wanted to. But he can only be in so many places at once.

Clerical magic does not involve the deity's intervention in any way, unless casting specific spells that say it involves them - Miracle and Planar Ally, for instance. Otherwise, the magical energy is just put there by the god (who doesn't even notice it happening unless he pays attention), and the cleric releases it at will thereafter. A god can't even strip powers from a cleric - he can only bar him from preparing new spells.

When channelling positive or negative energy, the deity has even less involvement. Turning or rebuking is a power of the cleric - it's something he does all by himself. The only say the deity gets is which type of energy the cleric channels, and that's probably more of an education thing than anything else. Good clerics just don't get taught to channel negative energy.

Glyde
2009-08-12, 08:39 PM
Good answers all around. The situation I'm in definitely favors the Lich (Because the Goddess is actually on the Lich's side. A big conspiracy and whatnot. The deity in question most certainly is paying attention.) but I was just seeing what everyone thought. Discussion is fun, right?

HamsterOfTheGod
2009-08-12, 08:40 PM
Alright. By RAW, I know how this would work, but I want to see what everyone's opinion on it would be.

Cleric of deity X attempts to turn a Lich. He rolls well enough that he'd succeed. However, the Lich worships the same deity.

Personally, the Lich (or other intelligent undead) is usually a villain of some sort, so evil laughter would be inserted at the time of the attempt, and nothing else would happen.

How would you rule it?

The cleric rebukes the lich. What's the problem? Dieties don't normally become involved in such a one on one dispute. And turning in game is the channeling of positive or negative energy. It's not directly related to the cleric's diety.

Devils_Advocate
2009-08-12, 09:26 PM
Well, if a goddess is intervening directly, she could probably stop a turning from working. She could probably stop another deity's cleric's turning, if she wanted. And make the fighter's sword clang ineffectually off of the lich, too.

Really, any deity with the Alter Reality salient divine ability who limits her activities to a single planet should be able to have more impact on that planet directly than her entire clergy. It's a little ridiculous. (It's also ridiculous to stat up a bunch of other abilities for her that are redundant with her crazy uber ability.)

ericgrau
2009-08-12, 09:49 PM
I don't think the cleric's spells would fail against the lich, nor his turning. The god grants the cleric his power and sets him on his merry way. But if the cleric violates his alignment or goes against his deity, then he might lose his cleric powers. Like "Oh snap, that lich is part of my plan to take over the eastern continent. Badaboom, bad follower, no more spells for you!" But otherwise I doubt the god could care less.

Kalirren
2009-08-13, 08:28 PM
Well, I think that the turning rules were written under the tacit assumption that undead were non-sentient. I don't think that turning should work the same way on non-sentient undead as it does on sentient undead. (Or other creatures for that matter; dragons have turnable types too!)

Mechanics-wise, the statuses of turned/rebuked would probably be replaced with frightened/charmed, and that of commanded would be replaced with dominated. Outright destruction is fine the way it is IMHO.

jmbrown
2009-08-13, 08:45 PM
Well, I think that the turning rules were written under the tacit assumption that undead were non-sentient. I don't think that turning should work the same way on non-sentient undead as it does on sentient undead. (Or other creatures for that matter; dragons have turnable types too!)

Mechanics-wise, the statuses of turned/rebuked would probably be replaced with frightened/charmed, and that of commanded would be replaced with dominated. Outright destruction is fine the way it is IMHO.

Turning/rebuking and sentient undead have existed since 1st edition AD&D. Turning is a power of the cleric and unless the god in question directly intervenes there's nothing stopping two of the same worshipers from turning each other. Undead clerics can't bolster or rebuke themselves but they can certainly do it to other undead regardless of chosen deity.

Some creatures can turn as an ability. The brain in the jar in Libris Mortis turns as a cleric several levels above his HD.