How Belkar might NOT die

[megabyter5]

We all know that the Oracle did his trance thing and said Belkar would be drawing his last breath ever before the end of the year... But that doesn't necessarily make him dead. Here are a couple of ideas that could keep him as a character while still stopping his respiratory system for good.

1) Undeath: The most obvious answer, really. There are several types of undead he could turn into but still be the same old Belkar. Whether that appeals to him or not, I'm not sure.

2) The Half-Golem template: In one of the other monster manuals, this template makes a character make a will save at the risk of gaining construct traits. Unfortunately, if that happened, his alignment would change to NE, taking away most (if not all) of the things we love about Belkar.

There are other creature types that don't need to breathe, so if anyone knows of an acquired template to change him to one of these, post it below.

[Mauve Shirt]

These options have been brought up over and over. But it's pretty clear that Belkar is going to die. "He's not long for this world".

[Heroic]

Maybe he will be sucked in by the Snarl, and will live forever in the alternate world in which people do not require oxygen to live. :smalltongue:

[David Argall]

Belkar ..
shouldn't bother to fund his IRA,
should savor his next birthday cake,
isn't long for this world,
is not going to see the Oracle again
will soon draw his last breath ever,
and there are likely a couple more I've missed.

Remember too that the Oracle has favored direct meanings, not trick solutions.

Come back when you have something other than Belkar croaking that fits all of the above.

[The Dark Fiddler]

These options have been brought up over and over. But it's pretty clear that Belkar is going to die. "He's not long for this world".

Obviously he's going to get shorter. :smallbiggrin:

Which could include being chopped in half.

[factotum]

Obviously he's going to get shorter. :smallbiggrin:

Which could include being chopped in half.

No, he's obviously going to get turned into one of those brains-in-a-jar that Xykon mentioned! It all makes perfect sense!!! :smallbiggrin:

[HealthKit]

Wow, this discussion never gets old. [/sarcasm]

Seriously, does Rich need to draw an Oracle strip just so we can be flat out told that Belkar's going to die and never get resurrected/reincarnated/whatever?

[Cracklord]

People would still have their doubts. Though I have a great, rarely mentioned theory that might takes all the facts into account and just work...


Belkar will die! And stay that way!
Which is why he won't be eating his cake. (corpses don't eat)
Or fund his IRA. (Once your a corpse your pretty much in the job for life)
Or Breathe. (Corpses do release fumes and gasses, but they don't take much in)
Or stay in this world. (Your corpse rots away, and your soul goes everhigher. In Belkar's case, downward, to wherever they put the wannabe's.)



As you can see, I've accounted for every fact. I give you Proof!

[Turkish Delight]

Belkar ..
shouldn't bother to fund his IRA,
should savor his next birthday cake,
isn't long for this world,
is not going to see the Oracle again
will soon draw his last breath ever,
and there are likely a couple more I've missed.

He will become undead, lose his taste buds, become so insanely wealthy he won't have to worry about funding an IRA, and will move to the Snarl's world.

There!

Really, though, I think these theories will keep cropping up even if the Oracle next directly announces 'Belkar will be utterly vaporized into ash beyond the point of ever conceivably being a character in this comic again and he will not ever, ever, ever be revived or resurrected in any way, shape or form in this world or any other.'

[Tijne]

'Belkar will be utterly vaporized into ash beyond the point of ever conceivably being a character in this comic again and he will not ever, ever, ever be revived or resurrected in any way, shape or form in this world or any other.'
What if Mr. Scruffy is actually a female and she dies having a small litter of kittens -- one (or half) Belkar names "Belkar Jr." -- and the entire prophecy that references "Belkar" is talking about one of those kittens...

And the Oracle was just being more of a.. 'jerk'... by making Roy think Belkar's going to die for good when he really isn't...

[Sanguine]

What if Mr. Scruffy is actually a female and she dies having a small litter of kittens -- one (or half) Belkar names "Belkar Jr." -- and the entire prophecy that references "Belkar" is talking about one of those kittens...

And the Oracle was just being more of a.. 'jerk'... by making Roy think Belkar's going to die for good when he really isn't...


One (of many) problem with that is that a couple of the prophecies refer to him as "the halfling"

[Roupe]

"He's not long for this world".

If Belkar visits that other world, inside the rift. that would count.

[Evil DM Mark3]

Part of me wonders if the Oracle isn't manipulating things, Belkar will die but the prophecy will make people not bother to resurect him.

But yes, most of me thinks he will die. And then stay dead.

Belkar is easily my least favourate character since Miko died however, so I admit that the wish is father of the thought a little.

[Menas]

I wouldn't put it past Rich to introduce a twist to the storyline if he felt so inclined.

He left plenty of wiggle-room in the Oracle's interpretations to Belkar of how Belkar had caused the death of certain people - those explanations were about as far-fetched as it gets.

The Oracle obviously hates Belkar; maybe he's just spreading lies about him because he feels like it.

I won't be too disappointed either way (for either eventuality of Belkar), although it does seems odd to me for Belkar to experience character development right before getting whacked out of the story.

[Morquard]

Part of me wonders if the Oracle isn't manipulating things, Belkar will die but the prophecy will make people not bother to resurect him.
I've said that before too, that the Oracle gives his prophecies as "I tell them what they need to hear to fullfill the greater goal".

If that is to tell Roy basicly "Belkar will die" and that makes Roy not kick him out of the Order because he thinks "oh well he's gonna be dead soon anyway, lets use him till then", because in the Oracles plan Belkar plays a role, than he will do it.

[Jackel]

Come back when you have something other than Belkar croaking that fits all of the above.

A) The Oracle lied.

Lying is easy when people assume you're supposed to tell the truth.

B) Prophecy was Wrong

Reality is unraveling, prophecy already fudged a few of the details for V's arcane ascension (if that Faustian deal was it), and the Oracle somewhat implied that his prophecy wasn't a 100% thing after he said the memory charm was placed to prevent off-hand remarks from altering events.

There are plenty of reasons to find the prophecy's integrity suspect.

C) A Thousand Ways to Say the Same Thing

Only green text applies. All other implications of Belkar's death were simply the kobold being creative with his phrasing. This reduces the requirements for his escape clause but still leaves Belkar's death likely. Why mess with Belkar before he dies if he'll simply return later (in another form)?


It's easy to think of possibilities when you don't assume prophecies (or their tellers) are always truthful. :smallwink:

[factotum]

I've said that before too, that the Oracle gives his prophecies as "I tell them what they need to hear to fullfill the greater goal".


So he deliberately arranged things so that Belkar would kill him? Yeah, that seems really likely... :smallconfused:

[Cracklord]

I won't be too disappointed either way (for either eventuality of Belkar), although it does seems odd to me for Belkar to experience character development right before getting whacked out of the story.

What character development?
Durkon's got a more complicate characterization, and he's a walking stereotype we barely know is in the comic.

[Menas]

What character development?
Durkon's got a more complicate characterization, and he's a walking stereotype we barely know is in the comic.

The whole 'evolve or die' thing? You know, the chain of events that majorly changed his perspective on life? The storyline that involved OoTS strips all the way from the mark of justice being placed on Belkar until he had it removed from him and laid waste to the thieve's guild?

That's the character development I'm referring to.

[David Argall]

It's easy to think of possibilities when you don't assume prophecies (or their tellers) are always truthful.
If you don't assume prophecies are always truthful, you are assuming they are not prophecies. The definition of prophecy is pretty much that it is truthful. [Honest? Well, that is another story entirely. Telling the truth to deceive is a very common motif.]
But in our particular case, one of the prime purposes of the Oracle is to inform the reader, and that requires we have confidence in the Oracle. So the Oracle lying or being wrong just negates the reason for there being an Oracle in the first place.

[Carisbourg]

Has the possibility of Belkar ascending been brought up yet?

The elves and the goblins have made themselves a god, why not the halflings. It would be a wonderful twist on the standard halfling image if their god is a CE war god.

[Optimystik]

A) The Oracle lied.

Not in prophecy-mode, he didn't. And why would he? He hates Belkar.


B) Prophecy was Wrong

Then it isn't a prophecy, by definition.


C) A Thousand Ways to Say the Same Thing

None of which fit except death.


It's easy to think of possibilities when you don't assume prophecies (or their tellers) are always truthful. :smallwink:

That's like saying "it's easy to come up with arguments if you just abandon logic."

[Kish]

Has the possibility of Belkar ascending been brought up yet?

The elves and the goblins have made themselves a god, why not the halflings. It would be a wonderful twist on the standard halfling image if their god is a CE war god.
The biggest problem with that idea is that, well. The Dark One ascended because he was a focus of reverence by his people worth fighting a war over. Real-world audience reactions aside, very few people in the comic like Belkar, much less revere him--and as far as halflings go, the only indication we have of them having any attitude toward Belkar or vice versa is from when Belkar said he wanted to brutally murder the halflings of the village where he grew up. Durkon has a better chance of becoming a god than Belkar does, and that's not to say that I think Durkon has any chance worth mentioning.

Oh, and for the record: Belkar is dead meat.

[Optimystik]

The biggest problem with that idea is that, well. The Dark One ascended because he was a focus of reverence by his people worth fighting a war over. Real-world audience reactions aside, very few people in the comic like Belkar, much less revere him--and as far as halflings go, the only indication we have of them having any attitude toward Belkar or vice versa is from when Belkar said he wanted to brutally murder the halflings of the village where he grew up.

Hey, fear might do it. :smallwink:

[Carisbourg]

The biggest problem with that idea is that, well. The Dark One ascended because he was a focus of reverence by his people worth fighting a war over.

I don't know what the race relations are like, so i was thinking of halflings not being taken seriously. I was thinking they might want a chance for respect, any chance. Who knows what a god of war could do for you. There are plenty of gods that were not revered in history, but people were scared enough of them to do what they were told.

[Jackel]

But in our particular case, one of the prime purposes of the Oracle is to inform the reader, and that requires we have confidence in the Oracle. So the Oracle lying or being wrong just negates the reason for there being an Oracle in the first place.

I think you are too quick to assume both the nature of prophecy and the purpose of the Oracle.

What is a prophecy? In its simplest form, it's an attempt to glimpse into the future. In human history there have been many prophecies, most ambiguously phrased, and not all have proven true. The term False Prophet wasn't coined without reason.

Now, I'll agree that in most fantasy settings prophecy is nearly always correct due to the Forces that Be, but something you should consider is that whether or not the prophecy ends up being correct: it still serves to push forward the story.

So before you make claims that prophecy is limited in purpose, consider that even without being true it can make an excellent McGuffin when characters believe in it. It's also a good way to pull a fast one on readers who've become complacent to the common tropes.

By pulling the rug out from under the reader (while still being believable), the author can throw off expectations and turn up the suspense again. For example: If Belkar lives past the year, that means Elan is not guaranteed a happy ending. Queue drama.

However, if done in a way that leaps out of nowhere, I'd be rather upset with a false prophecy myself. Without some manner of foreshadowing to indicate the prophecy's potential failure or the teller's hidden agenda it becomes nothing more than a crazy twist that will always feel off.

[Morty]

It's easy to think of possibilities when you don't assume prophecies (or their tellers) are always truthful. :smallwink:

And it's even easier to try and deny prophecies when you don't want them to be true.

[Jackel]

That's like saying "it's easy to come up with arguments if you just abandon logic."

Logic only works if your premises are correct.

[multilis]

It *is* possible for Belkar to *both* leave "this world" *and* not draw breath anymore, eg a vampire in Snarls world.

[Optimystik]

Logic only works if your premises are correct.

Good work. Now prove that the premise "The Oracle's prophecies are false" is true in OotS, and we can talk.

[Jackel]

Good work. Now prove that the premise "The Oracle's prophecies are false" is true in OotS, and we can talk.

If I intended to claim with absolute certainty that Belkar would survive you might have a case.

However, I only said it remains a possibility and that you shouldn't get caught up in (flimsy) assumptions or grow too attached to their logical conclusions. The Oracle is a character with his own motivations, and perhaps more importantly, the servant of Tiamat herself.

Are you really willing to dismiss the possibility that she has cast her hand for Ultimate Power? Rich did infer that there were several sides OoTS readers didn't know about yet.

[Optimystik]

If I intended to claim with absolute certainty that Belkar would survive you might have a case.

However, I only said it remains a possibility and that you shouldn't get caught up in (flimsy) assumptions or grow too attached to their logical conclusions. The Oracle is a character with his own motivations, and perhaps more importantly, the servant of Tiamat herself.

An Oracle's prophecies coming true - especially when his track record is 100% so far - is not "flimsy."

Tiamat cares not a fig about Belkar, and the Oracle actively hates him (both racially and as a person) so he has no reason to lie about Belkar's death.


Are you really willing to dismiss the possibility that she has cast her hand for Ultimate Power? Rich did infer that there were several sides OoTS readers didn't know about yet.

:smallsigh:

I should have known I'd open THAT can of worms. We're done here.

[veti]

Belkar dying doesn't mean he's no longer a major character. After all, it didn't stop Roy, did it?

So yes, he's going to die. But is that going to be the end of him or his story? Hell (no pun intended) no.

[Jackel]

An Oracle's prophecies coming true - especially when his track record is 100% so far - is not "flimsy."

Tsk, this is what I mean about poor assumptions. Lying is easier if you tell it alongside truth, or if you first cultivate trust with honesty.

You assume that because the Oracle has told 100% truth so far, a claim I'd disagree with, he could not have lied about the other prophecies to engineer outcomes.

You also ask why the Oracle would lie about Belkar's death, but fail to ask why he cares enough to give ghost Roy a freebie. Remember that he was in a hurry to meet Mama Dragon and not particularly fond of Roy. You're telling me that he would take away from his precious time just to indulge the curiosity of some smelly ape... ghost? He could have dismissed Roy in an instant and without a second thought.

The source of the prophecy has a vested interest in the Gates and the Snarl (my assumption). Also, "by definition", that source has access to some means of discerning the future, even if it has limitations we don't know about. We're talking about a guy who regularly proves himself capable of preparation far in advance, to the point where he established a village merely for a practical joke.

I find your refusal to accept Tiamat (or even the Oracle) as a [very possible] player in this adventure disturbingly short-sighted.

[Optimystik]

Tsk, this is what I mean about poor assumptions. Lying is easier if you tell it alongside truth, or if you first cultivate trust with honesty.

So assuming someone is telling the truth when they have no reason to lie... is a poor assumption? That makes zero sense.


You assume that because the Oracle has told 100% truth so far, a claim I'd disagree with, he could not have lied about the other prophecies to engineer outcomes.

"He could have lied, so he did?" Is that seriously your argument?


You also ask why the Oracle would lie about Belkar's death, but fail to ask why he cares enough to give ghost Roy a freebie. Remember that he was in a hurry to meet Mama Dragon and not particularly fond of Roy. You're telling me that he would take away from his precious time just to indulge the curiosity of some smelly ape... ghost? He could have dismissed Roy in an instant and without a second thought.

A freebie reiterating Belkar's impending demise is a bonus for the Oracle. It also gave the Giant a chance to make it official (i.e. green text.) But if all that didn't convince you, I doubt I'm going to either, so I'll leave it at that.


The source of the prophecy has a vested interest in the Gates and the Snarl (my assumption). Also, "by definition", that source has access to some means of discerning the future, even if it has limitations we don't know about. We're talking about a guy who regularly proves himself capable of preparation far in advance, to the point where he established a village merely for a practical joke.

I find your refusal to accept Tiamat (or even the Oracle) as a [very possible] player in this adventure disturbingly short-sighted.

Strawman. I never said Tiamat wasn't involved with the story, I said she wasn't involved with Belkar.

[Jackel]

So assuming someone is telling the truth when they have no reason to lie... is a poor assumption? That makes zero sense.

Being the Devil's Advocate is such a pain... No. I'm saying it's reasonable to believe the source of prophecy (Oracle/Tiamat) have their own motives, and we have no clue whether or not he's forced to tell the truth during his revelations... not to mention the possibility of illusions.


"He could have lied, so he did?" Is that seriously your argument?

Again, I did not claim that he lied. I'm simply pointing out the absurdity of saying he couldn't.


A freebie reiterating Belkar's impending demise is a bonus for the Oracle.

I don't see how that could be as satisfying as sending a message to Belkar to not only remind him of his fate (since his memory was wiped), but also to rub it in his face. Somehow I don't think he's the type to get hung up on that, at least not to the point where he feels to go out of his way in mentioning it.


It also gave the Giant a chance to make it official (i.e. green text.) But if all that didn't convince you, I doubt I'm going to either, so I'll leave it at that.

I could see it, especially considering how the Oracle specified what kind of year it was, but hey, Creators Lie (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LyingCreator) too. I'm simply keeping an open mind to possibilities not readily apparent. I'm more interested in how the story is told than the fate of a single character.


Strawman. I never said Tiamat wasn't involved with the story, I said she wasn't involved with Belkar.

Alright, I should have been clear: It's odd for you to think she hadn't already entered the game and to simply assume she has no use for Belkar. If you accept that she (and the Oracle) hold the power of prophecy, you also have to accept that they [may] have the ability to predict things far before we know what's going on.

[Serenity]

Belkar will become a woman. He is not long for the world--but she will be bitter for a very, very long time.

[Jackel]

Belkar will become a woman. He is not long for the world--but she will be bitter for a very, very long time.

While Roy cackles in the background at his delayed revenge.

[Ubergeek]

Well, Belkar ascending, while unlikely, would certainly give a new meaning to "sexy shoeless god of war."


Anyway, when the Oracle first said "draw his last breath, ever," I jump on the bandwagon of people that assumed he would fall into the rift and be unmade, thus technically not dying.

When the rift was revealed to have a planet in it, the theory is dashed to pieces, of course. But it does resonate strongly with the "not long for this world" line.

Maybe it will be sort of like Rose Tyler. (For those of you who don't know, in the show "Doctor Who," a giant demon-like creature makes a prediction that Rose will "die in battle very soon." A few episodes afterward, there's a war between Earth and invaders from another dimension. The invaders are expelled, and the dimensional rift is closed, but Rose is trapped on the other side. Rose was on the list of the deceased, even though she was alive.

I believe that the demon thought Rose was going to die because, as powerful as he was, he couldn't see into the parallel dimension.)

The Oracle may not have the ability to see into alternate realities either, so he might not actually see Belkar die. Which is why he never comes out to say it.

This doesn't cover everything, but I think it's worth some thought.

[factotum]

Anyway, when the Oracle first said "draw his last breath, ever," I jump on the bandwagon of people that assumed he would fall into the rift and be unmade, thus technically not dying.


It's been said that people unmade by the Snarl have their very souls destroyed...that's WORSE than death, I think!

[Origomar]

Not in prophecy-mode, he didn't. And why would he? He hates Belkar.



Then it isn't a prophecy, by definition.



None of which fit except death.



That's like saying "it's easy to come up with arguments if you just abandon logic."


You would know alot about abandoning logic wouldnt you.



Oh and whats to say rich wont pull the im ron belkars twin brother, my brother told me everything about you guys and i act just like him.

OoTS group- Is it alright if we call you belkar?

Ron- Sure!!

...it could happen.

[factotum]

...it could happen.

If the Giant were a really, really terrible writer, maybe...do you think he's that bad? I don't.

[Jackel]

Oh and whats to say rich wont pull the im ron belkars twin brother, my brother told me everything about you guys and i act just like him.

OoTS group- Is it alright if we call you belkar?

Ron- Sure!!

Well, maybe if he wanted to go back to D&D jokes and poke fun at players who simply create Hero I, Hero II, etc. when their old one dies.

Story-wise it would blow though.

[TooManySecrets]

Guys, I pretty sure that every prophecy ever given in this comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0060.html) has been absolutely true in the exact way it seems to be true. Also, there is no reason (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0567.html) that the Oracle would lie.

But seriously, there's plenty of evidence that prophecies in the OOtS universe come in both the ambiguous and non-ambiguous variety. The consequence of which is that prophecies aren't worth much of anything and only cause more trouble than their worth. ("Well, the Oracle said 'You will never find love'." "Yeah, but he might have just been cryptic. Maybe love will find you?" "Or it means exactly what it says." *everybody becomes quiet and thinks, before having a collective "Ah, screw it"*)

[Katana_Geldar]

From what I understand the Oracles purpose is in the story from Burlew's commentary in the third OOTS book, the Oracle is meant to be a plot device for foreshadowing. So does the fact the oracle foreshadows means that he is right? It's a fair bet.

BTW, in the same commentary it does not say that Belkar would die, but that he was "not long for this world" ;)

[TooManySecrets]

Oh yeah, he foreshadows, but it's foreshadowing in the same sense as "If you cross the river, you will destroy a great empire".

I actually wouldn't be all that surprised if Rich has a bit of an idea where the prophecy is going but makes it up as it comes along. Heck, that's what I do when I GM. Make the prophecy just ambiguous enough that it can mean anything, then an opportunity presents itself, and BAM! players think you've planned this thing far in advance.

Of course, it also sometimes results in players analyzing everything you say for every potential meaning - which is actually where we are right now.

[Jackel]

Guys, I pretty sure that every prophecy ever given in this comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0060.html) has been absolutely true in the exact way it seems to be true. Also, there is no reason (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0567.html) that the Oracle would lie.

*sigh* Look, all I'm saying is don't be surprised if Rich is pulling his own shell game con on you. Just because the oracle glows, uses green text bubbles, and we (as readers) are used to prophecies being true does not mean there aren't alternate possibilities.

If the PC party is used to prophecies working in their favor, they're less likely to question the next. If for instance, the kobold threw in a false prophecy that caused Roy to abandon Belkar after he apparently died, it would leave a very pissed off halfling who could be manipulated into working towards Tiamat/Oracle's goals, or at least lead to the circumstances that will allow them to triumph.

Does it seem implausible from our standpoint? Sure. However, you should keep in mind that Tiamat, as one of the evil gods, is probably very interested in the events surrounding our protagonists and their mission. Even more importantly, her team can apparently tell the future. I think it's only healthy to suspect entities with that sort of capability to also have the power to lay out incredibly complex plans that actually have the ability to work (unlike Nale's).

I keep hearing how the kobold would have no reason to lie, so apparently I'm the only one who notices how the important events in the story *might* cause one of the most infamous evil gods in D&D mythology to get off her scaly butt and work on a Xanatos Gambit.

But since nobody agrees, I guess I must be crazy.

*eyes the Kobold Camp avatar*

Wait... you're one of... *clonk*!

[Turkish Delight]

It's been said that people unmade by the Snarl have their very souls destroyed...that's WORSE than death, I think!

It counts towards the not-breathing though. And frankly, I personally think I might take oblivion over the Abyss.

[factotum]

See, now you seem to be suggesting that Tiamat is somehow opposed to what the Order is up to. That's only really possible if everything we were told in the Crayons of Time was a lie, because Tiamat was one of the original gods who were around when the Snarl was imprisoned and she knows full well what it can do. Now, I personally believe that something smells to high heaven about the Crayons now we've seen #672, so I'm more inclined to think that's possible than most people, but even then, I think it's a bit of a stretch.

Especially since the Order are rapidly approaching the Western Continent, which is Tiamat's own domain and thus the place where she (and her clerics) can exercise the most power--and the only Oracle prophecy that sent them there was the one saying Xykon would go to Girard's Gate next, not anything to do with Belkar. It seems unlikely that the Oracle was lying about Girard's Gate considering he was dropping broad hints that Roy might want to rethink the question on that one!

[TooManySecrets]

@Jackel

I was being sort of sarcastic. I agree completely that Rich could pretty much make it come out in whatever way he wants.

The Oracle can lie. After all, he lied to try to save his own life. And now he's been killed by Belkar, so he now has a reason to see him hurt/killed.

@factotum

Ah, she wants them to succeed, but don't you think she might want to get something out of it if she can? Set up some ultra-complicated plan that results in the universe not being destroyed and also getting some power out of it. Sounds pretty evil to me.

EDIT: Oh, not to mention that just because Tiamat knows, doesn't mean the Oracle does. He could be going out of his way to screw over Belkar and even if Tiamat tells him to knock it off later on, the damage is already done.

Or, Tiamat did inform the Oracle, the death of Belkar won't affect anything doing with the Snarl, and everything is exactly as it seems.

[Jackel]

See, now you seem to be suggesting that Tiamat is somehow opposed to what the Order is up to.

Rich is constantly throwing curve balls at us. I'm simply saying it's a possibility and using a person's own assumptions against them is one of the best ways to catch them off-guard.

Me? I'm just along for the ride. Trying to guess the outcome can be fun, but ultimately it is a futile cause. Strip #672 proved that when it threw a wrench in the works.

[Jackel]

The Oracle can lie. After all, he lied to try to save his own life. And now he's been killed by Belkar, so he now has a reason to see him hurt/killed.

But telling the prophecy doesn't change fate. He could have kept his yap shut and Belkar would still have died. Agitate the halfling when he was visiting? Sure. However, if he's the type to have murderous grudges, the only benefit he gains from telling Roy is that either Roy mentions the prophecy to Belkar again (since the memory charm wiped it), which Belkar might not even believe, OR because him telling Roy somehow leads to the prophecy coming true.

To use the previous abandonment example: Roy figures Belkar is a goner as it fits the prophecy. Roy abandons a Belkar who could have been saved. Belkar dies because Roy abandoned him.

That assumes the kobold wants to murder the halfling instead of torment him. Think of V and Belkar's feud. Just because the Oracle is (supposedly) evil doesn't mean he is all "Kill! Kill! Kill!" when he can gain more enjoyment by non-lethally screwing with the guy.

[TooManySecrets]

...what? What, in particular, are you disagreeing with? I'm agreeing that the Oracle might not be on the up and up.


EDIT: On another note, I don't read much of these speculation threads, but has it been noticed that the answer to Durkon's question is completely useless?

And now that I think about it, V's prophecy hasn't come true yet either...

[Kish]

EDIT: On another note, I don't read much of these speculation threads, but has it been noticed that the answer to Durkon's question is completely useless?

In what sense? It tells him what he wanted to know.

[Optimystik]

You would know alot about abandoning logic wouldnt you.

Of course I do. I see it on these forums all the time.


But seriously, there's plenty of evidence that prophecies in the OOtS universe come in both the ambiguous and non-ambiguous variety. The consequence of which is that prophecies aren't worth much of anything and only cause more trouble than their worth. ("Well, the Oracle said 'You will never find love'." "Yeah, but he might have just been cryptic. Maybe love will find you?" "Or it means exactly what it says." *everybody becomes quiet and thinks, before having a collective "Ah, screw it"*)

A prophecy being open to multiple interpretations isn't the same as the Oracle just flat-out lying for no reason. The former is good writing, the latter is not.


*sigh* Look, all I'm saying is don't be surprised if Rich is pulling his own shell game con on you. Just because the oracle glows, uses green text bubbles, and we (as readers) are used to prophecies being true does not mean there aren't alternate possibilities.

Of course it's possible. It's possible Rich will end the comic in two strips with "rocks fall, everyone dies." But that doesn't make it likely, nor does that make it good writing.

[Jackel]

...what? What, in particular, are you disagreeing with? I'm agreeing that the Oracle might not be on the up and up.

Erm... I probably read that wrong (I do that a lot). :smalleek:

If not you, I thought somebody mentioned that the Oracle's constant quips about the halfling's inevitable fate was due to a petty hatred. I guess I was disagreeing with that...

*feels really silly right now*

[TooManySecrets]

In what sense? It tells him what he wanted to know.

Durkon: "How will I finally be returnin' to me beloved dwarven homelands?"
Oracle: "Posthumously"

Now, Durkon obviously "finally" as in "Man, I've been away for far too long and I'm finally back home!".

However, "finally" can also mean "the last time". As in, the last time he returns is after he dead. So he could go to his homeland dozens of times, leaves, and dies. As a great hero, his body is brought back. As in, returned posthumously.

In other words, it could mean two different things: he's not going to get back to his homeland before he dies or he's going to be buried in his homelands after travelling abroad.


Tell me you're trolling.

While I sometime engage in that activity on the Unnameable Image Board, I would never do that here.

V: "How will I achieve complete and total ultimate arcane power?"
Oracle: "By saying the right four words to the right being for all the wrong reasons."

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but if V had achieved complete and total ultimate arcane power with his Deal-with-the-Fiends, why was he beaten by Xykon? By definition, "ultimate" means that nothing surpasses it. There can't even be a tie.


A prophecy being open to multiple interpretations isn't the same as the Oracle just flat-out lying for no reason. The former is good writing, the latter is not.

Ah, but we're dealing with incomplete information here. Just because we can't think of a reason, doesn't mean there is one. After all, I don't think that anybody entertained thoughts of a planet being in the tear.

Of course, just because there could be a currently unknowable reason, doesn't mean there is. That's the sort of fuzzy thinking that leads to all sorts of bad things. But the possibility still needs to be entertained.

Plus, there could be a reason: the Oracle hates Belkar and he thinks that by telling Roy he'll die will somehow result in bad things happening. Remember, the first time he told them, they didn't remember it - it wasn't an answer to a question. After being killed by Belkar, he thought "What the hell, let's do it" and told Roy in green dialogue so that he'd remember (though he didn't see Roy remembering everything ... OR DID HE?). Or, this entire line of reasoning is a house of cards that will fall down with a quick blow of truth. Whatever.


Erm... I probably read that wrong (I do that a lot). :smalleek:

If not you, I thought somebody mentioned that the Oracle's constant quips about the halfling's inevitable fate was due to a petty hatred. I guess I was disagreeing with that...

*feels really silly right now*

No no, I am saying that that could be a possible reason. Though, of course, not the only reason or even one strong enough for him to start messing around with the chance of destroying the universe (then again, it's Redcloak's petty hatred of the gods that is currently inexorable leading to the release of the Snarl and the destruction of the universe...)

[Kish]

In other words, it could mean two different things: he's not going to get back to his homeland before he dies or he's going to be buried in his homelands after travelling abroad.

So? Durkon now knows that he'll go back and be buried with his ancestors. That's what matters to him.

[TooManySecrets]

So? Durkon now knows that he'll go back and be buried with his ancestors. That's what matters to him.

True. I guess Durkon doesn't really care whether he returns in a month or a hundred years, in perfect health or ground to a fine dust.


I'll take that as a "yes." Whew.

Okay, this is really bothering me.

Why exactly do you think I'm trolling?

EDIT: I mean, let's assume that while in a prophetic trance, the kobold can only speak the truth (wankery over him trying to screw over Belkar being ignored right now). Then "ultimate arcane power" has to mean "the highest degree of arcane power possible". And if you're telling me that "the highest degree of arcane power possible" isn't enough to kill Xykon...

[Jackel]

Of course it's possible. It's possible Rich will end the comic in two strips with "rocks fall, everyone dies." But that doesn't make it likely, nor does that make it good writing.

Except I'm trying to show that it isn't just an out of the blue possibility, but rather that it's a very real one. Neither are you the ultimate authority on what makes for good or bad writing.


And now that I think about it, V's prophecy hasn't come true yet either...

Tell me you're trolling.

Oracle's Prediction:

By saying the right four words to the right being at the right time for all the wrong reasons.

How V gained his power:

He accepted the Faustian offer by touching the blue pill orb. The only words he said then were "I... I must succeed." Although they were 4, they were to nobody in particular, and merely echoed his own thoughts. You could say he uttered them to motivate himself but that's quite a large stretch.

Furthermore, I would hardly call the soul-splice: "complete and total ultimate arcane power."

The prophecy either fudged a few of the details, or V's request was unfeasible so it responded with the next closest thing. I don't know what V expected. How can anybody define complete when talking about infinite raw potential?

[Kish]

You could say he uttered them to motivate himself but that's quite a large stretch.
I don't agree with that, but that's a side issue. What is not a side issue, is that you're talking about why you found the resolution of the prophecy unsatisfying. Not saying the prophecy hasn't come true. "The prophecy either fudged a few of the details, or V's request was unfeasible so it responded with the next closest thing." We have people who think the resolution of the prophecy was great and people who think it stank, we have people who think the words were, "I...I must succeed" and people who think they were "Disintegrate, Gust of Wind," but TooManySecrets is the only person in a long while to suggest that the prophecy hasn't come true.

[TooManySecrets]

The prophecy either fudged a few of the details, or V's request was unfeasible so it responded with the next closest thing. I don't know what V expected. How can anybody define complete when talking about infinite raw potential?

I think that it is possible for V to get ultimate arcane power, otherwise the Oracle would have said "You won't". I mean, that's a perfectly reasonable answer to the question.

Which, once again, assumes that the Oracle is telling at least the literal truth ... On that note, can we just go with the assumption that the Oracle can only tell the truth (literal or otherwise)? It'll make life simpler, even if it does get rid of the possibility of him lying for some grand plan to screw over Belkar.


but TooManySecrets is the only person in a long while to suggest that the prophecy hasn't come true.

...which means I'm trolling. I understand that Poe's Law is working against me here (the more general version of the law, not the religion-specific version) but I really think that the prophecy hasn't come true yet. I mean, once again, the whole "When the goat turns..." deal has at least set up the precedent for prophecies seeming to come true but don't really.

[Aldrakan]

V: "How will I achieve complete and total ultimate arcane power?"
Oracle: "By saying the right four words to the right being for all the wrong reasons."

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but if V had achieved complete and total ultimate arcane power with his Deal-with-the-Fiends, why was he beaten by Xykon? By definition, "ultimate" means that nothing surpasses it. There can't even be a tie.

Not really. Are you saying that V didn't have more arcane power that X when he first got the splice?
By the time he got to X his spells were diminished from his fight with the dragon and all that teleporting.

But more importantly there's a difference between arcane power and the ability to beat people up with it. If I had more spells than anyone in the world but they're all geared towards research, luxury and the construction of buildings, I wouldn't be a lot of use in a fight.
Tactics can overcome a lot of disadvantages, that's why people use generals instead of just counting up the troops, and V's tactics were...less than stellar.
He was still constrained by the limitations of the D&D magic system, which means that if you don't use the right spells, it doesn't matter how good they are.
And if you recall, X actually gave a whole speech about how there are types of power besides just having spells.

[Optimystik]

Ah, but we're dealing with incomplete information here. Just because we can't think of a reason, doesn't mean there is one. After all, I don't think that anybody entertained thoughts of a planet being in the tear.

Of course, just because there could be a currently unknowable reason, doesn't mean there is. That's the sort of fuzzy thinking that leads to all sorts of bad things. But the possibility still needs to be entertained.

I'm not saying you can't entertain the possibility. You do whatever you want. I'm saying it's unreasonable to expect everyone to agree with you (and Jackel) until we see a shred of evidence that the Oracle was lying, that Tiamat gives a fig about Belkar, etc.

The planet in the tear was foreshadowed, by Blackwing getting mesmerized (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0659.html). We may not have known exactly what was inside, but we knew that it was something we wouldn't be expecting (since the Snarl as we've seen it before doesn't exactly qualify as "beautiful.") Therefore it was NOT out of the blue. Neither of you has anything comparable for the Oracle or Tiamat's behavior.


Except I'm trying to show that it isn't just an out of the blue possibility, but rather that it's a very real one. Neither are you the ultimate authority on what makes for good or bad writing.

You have no basis for that "real possibility" except an odd desire to play devil's advocate. You have neither evidence nor indication of the Oracle's OR Tiamat's duplicity.

As for the 4-words thing, I'm not surprised in the least that you two are in agreement on that, as well. Believe what you like, I'm done arguing with you.

[TooManySecrets]

Not really. Are you saying that V didn't have more arcane power that X when he first got the splice?
By the time he got to X his spells were diminished from his fight with the dragon and all that teleporting.

But more importantly there's a difference between arcane power and the ability to beat people up with it. If I had more spells than anyone in the world but they're all geared towards research, luxury and the construction of buildings, I wouldn't be a lot of use in a fight.
Tactics can overcome a lot of disadvantages, that's why people use generals instead of just counting up the troops, and V's tactics were...less than stellar.
He was still constrained by the limitations of the D&D magic system, which means that if you don't use the right spells, it doesn't matter how good they are.
And if you recall, X actually gave a whole speech about how there are types of power besides just having spells.


Would you agree that the ability to soul splice comes from arcane magic?

If so, then ultimate arcane power would include the ability to splice souls.

Therefore, he could have had more power than he did by splicing in additional souls. Therefore, the power he had was not ultimate. Contradiction.


As for the constraints of the D&D magic system, remember that there is nothing preventing a 1000th level caster. Which allows you to do stupidly powerful stuff. Like blowing up the sun.


And, "ultimate" doesn't mean "a lot", it means by definition "the best". Now, let's assume that you can objectively find "the best" arcane power (Please let's assume that, otherwise we get into "Well, the Oracle thought it was the best..."). If that's true, then ultimate arcane power would have to encompass all possibilities of arcane power. Otherwise, there is still something better.

Of course, we could assume that there would be penalties that you could never get rid of e.g. "Well, you can have 100 castings of Disintegrate or a 100 castings of Heal, but not both". However, if that's true, then there is no such thing as "ultimate" since there would be ties. Therefore, the Oracle would have just said "You won't". He didn't. Contradiction.

And while I appreciate the whole "It's not how powerful you are, it's how you use it" (innuendo intended), I don't buy it. I somehow doubt that Xykon could survive a 50th level spell with a DC 120 save, no matter the tactics. And, at least in my interpretation, ultimate arcane power would entail something like that.

[Kish]

...which means I'm trolling. I understand that Poe's Law is working against me here (the more general version of the law, not the religion-specific version) but I really think that the prophecy hasn't come true yet.
All right. At this point, I believe you're probably sincere. (Though, I must admit, there is a part of my mind that expects you to respond to this post with, "Ha ha, sucker!") Sorry about that.

There are three different ways to address your objections. One is, as Aldrakan pointed out: All three splices was the fulfillment of the prophecy, not two. Vaarsuvius didn't face Xykon in that state, they faced him after having lost the most powerful of the three.

The second is: This is why Xykon made the big distinction between spells and power, remember? Vaarsuvius had more raw arcane power than Xykon, even with just two splices, but they lost because Xykon had allies and the knowledge to use the power he had. A big pile of spells isn't enough when the other guy has a big pile of spells and the strength to crush your windpipe with his bare phalanges.

The third is: No, that's not the only definition of "ultimate." Do you seriously believe Vaarsuvius will actually get even more power than that at any time in the comic?

Edit as you posted while I was posting: You have only yourself to blame if you parsed Vaarsuvius' question into "How will I become invincible?" Vaarsuvius, incidentally, also has only himself/herself to blame if s/he did the same.

[Optimystik]

Would you agree that the ability to soul splice comes from arcane magic?

No, I wouldn't. Where did you get that idea?

[Aldrakan]

Would you agree that the ability to soul splice comes from arcane magic?

If so, then ultimate arcane power would include the ability to splice souls.

Therefore, he could have had more power than he did by splicing in additional souls. Therefore, the power he had was not ultimate. Contradiction.


It's a demonic gift, not a spell. I wouldn't assume it's necessarily arcane.
In any case, does V have access to a bunch of dead souls of powerful mages? Because without having those under in your control the ability to cast Souls Splice is about as useful as Wind Walk when you're buried underground.
As has been pointed out, there are types of power besides arcane might.

In any case, there are several definitions of "ultimate" and one of them would be having more arcane power than anyone else, which he did have. Having more power than could be theoretically gotten by any means wasn't part of the deal.

And regarding the ability to blow up a sun or whatever, has he researched the spell Blow Up The Sun? Having the greatest arcane power doesn't make him omnipotent or able to ignore the fundamental rules of the magic system. He still has to have the spell to cast it.

[TooManySecrets]

(Though, I must admit, there is a part of my mind that expects you to respond to this post with, "Ha ha, sucker!")

...Ha...Ha..s..MUST RESIST URGE.

(That probably didn't help my case).


The third is: No, that's not the only definition of "ultimate." Do you seriously believe Vaarsuvius will actually get even more power than that at any time in the comic?

Here's where I have a problem.

define:ultimate

*furthest or highest in degree or order; utmost or extreme
*the finest or most superior quality of its kind

Now, I would accept that it was V's ultimate (his peak of power) as a completely valid line of reasoning ... but it just seems like ... ugh. Truth be told, it sounds like the sort of reasoning the Oracle was using to persuade Belkar that he was responsible for Roy's, Miko's, and Miko's horses death.

I guess that accepting that V was too stupid to use his power would be reasonable ... except that the spellcasters spliced to him definitely wouldn't be! "Hey, kid, just to help you out here, but this spell would really help out here. Like a lot. Plus talking is a free action so let's just blabber on". (Of course, there is the possibility that they didn't want to, but then we get into the same problem as with the Oracle/Tiamat, so for sake of sanity, let's assume that the soul splicees did want to help out.)


A big pile of spells isn't enough when the other guy has a big pile of spells and the strength to crush your windpipe with his bare phalanges.


Let Go of Me
Transmutation
Spellcraft DC: 43
Components: None
Casting Time: 1 free action
Range: Touch (see text)
Target: One creature or force grappling you
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Fortitude half
Spell Resistance: Yes
To Develop: 387,000 gp; 8 days; 15,480 XP. Seed: destroy (DC 29). Factors: quickened (+28 DC), no verbal or somatic components (+4 DC). Mitigating factors: limited circumstance (ad hoc -8 DC), 10d6 backlash (-10 DC).

The character deals 20d6 points of damage to any creature grappling him or her. The damage dealt is of no particular type or energy-it is a purely destructive impulse. If grappled by a magical force the force is automatically destroyed.

Heck, it's a free action with no components. Hold Person means squat to that (Plus, I could see a version without backlash pretty easily. In most epic games where spellcasters use the spell, that's what they seem to end up doing). So yeah, a big pile of spells can make up for inexperience. If the pile's big enough.


I'm not saying you can't entertain the possibility. You do whatever you want. I'm saying it's unreasonable to expect everyone to agree with you (and Jackel) until we see a shred of evidence that the Oracle was lying, that Tiamat gives a fig about Belkar, etc.

The planet in the tear was foreshadowed, by Blackwing getting mesmerized (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0659.html). We may not have known exactly what was inside, but we knew that it was something we wouldn't be expecting (since the Snarl as we've seen it before doesn't exactly qualify as "beautiful.") Therefore it was NOT out of the blue. Neither of you has anything comparable for the Oracle or Tiamat's behavior.

Disclaimer: Everything I say is in no way meant to discourage you from believing whatever you want to believe (unless I explicitly say otherwise, which I want). I understand that our understanding of the world can only be incomplete by it's very nature and therefore, one must accept that any position is only that - a position. We must come together with the realization that we are different people with different experiences which have led us to come to different conclusions, but this in no way invalidates (or justifies) any of those conclusions.

Furthermore, as a corollary to the above, my liking or disliking of anything (especially in regards to game systems) in no way means that I do not want you to enjoy said thing (or not enjoy it, as the case may be). I do not enjoy FATAL, for instance, but it is right to enjoy it if you so desire. The same applies to 3.5th, 4e, street racing, Monopoly, tea parties, and other such things.

The only thing that I ask in return is that you give me the same allowances. While you are under no compunction to do so, I believe that it is a moral obligation to act thusly. Of course, if you disagree with that belief, you are free to act in any other way that you deem correct.

...

What's wrong with the internet that the above isn't the default assumption?

...

Okay, with that out of the way, here's the thing, I'm not saying that just because it's possible for the Oracle to lie and try to screw over Belkar and/or Tiamat has some ridiculously circuitous plan that it implies that it is true. I have said this before in an earlier post, but it bears repeating.

I would also like to point out, that merely knowing that you should expect a twist, does not mean that you know that the twist is coming. For example, I know that I'm going to die someday. I sure as heck don't know how, however. And that "how" (or as is more often the case in the comic, "what") is important and Rich has shown time and time again that the "how" and the "what" are never set in stone until they're set in stone (Yeah, wrap your head around that one).

[Optimystik]

*snip*

What's wrong with the internet that the above isn't the default assumption?

The fact that you're publicly arguing in favor of this nonsense implies that you're trying to be convince someone other than yourself.

I ask again. What makes you think the Oracle was lying? Do you have any indication at all?


I would also like to point out, that merely knowing that you should expect a twist, does not mean that you know that the twist is coming. For example, I know that I'm going to die someday. I sure as heck don't know how, however. And that "how" (or as is more often the case in the comic, "what") is important and Rich has shown time and time again that the "how" and the "what" are never set in stone until they're set in stone (Yeah, wrap your head around that one).

Your'e stating the painfully obvious. Of course we don't know the "how." Foreshadowing only tells us what will happen down the road, not the sequence of events that leads there.

My point is that there has been NO foreshadowing - NONE - that Tiamat cares about Belkar OR that the Oracle has reason to lie in green text. Find me some, and I'll gladly cede the point.

[Jackel]

The planet in the tear was foreshadowed, by Blackwing getting mesmerized (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0659.html). We may not have known exactly what was inside, but we knew that it was something we wouldn't be expecting (since the Snarl as we've seen it before doesn't exactly qualify as "beautiful.") Therefore it was NOT out of the blue. Neither of you has anything comparable for the Oracle or Tiamat's behavior.

Maybe you've forgotten, but the Giant uses foreshadowing that is both apparent and subtle.

You demand for me to show you something that the Oracle has done but I'm not arguing purely from that point: I'm arguing that it's very possible because of what the Oracle IS.

Have you even stopped to consider that the Giant may have made the Oracle a follower of Tiamat for a good reason? Why did he pick that particular religion/goddess for the Oracle? Yeah, he may have just out of the blue decided he'd try something a little different and made a generic oracle who serves the evil dragon goddess, but we're not exactly in his head so that we can check.

I've also pointed out that him telling Roy about Belkar's death could either be idle/entertaining chatter (when he was in a hurry to meet Mama dragon and not fond of Roy), or something he planned way in advance because, you know, he's a freakin Oracle.

Want more scenes that could fit into subtle foreshadowing?

Strip 428 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0428.html) , my inspiration here. Replace Paladins with Tropers. You assume that Rich wouldn't try shaking up conventions and try something new... when he has admitted that he enjoys pulling something off where his readers don't see it coming. Bonus points if the answer was in front of their noses the entire time and they didn't see it.

If you haven't figured it out yet, OoTS characters can be as sneaky as their creator. I mean that in the best way of course.

[TheWerdna]

While i wouldn't put it past Rich to twist the storyline in ways we don't expect, Belkar is still going to die.

[TooManySecrets]

EDIT: Man this is a long post...


As has been pointed out, there are types of power besides arcane might.

I know, but I was just trying for expediency. OH WELL.

So, let's say would the power be possible to attain with wish? Yes, wish uses up XP but locate object for a ring of wishes doesn't (though once again we get into the issue of whether V had the presence of mind and patience to do so. Given what happened, probably not). Or gating in a genie and getting wishes from him. (Yes, this makes it so that he spends more time in the Hells, but when you have the souls of every single mage who every lived, I think you might be able to stomp all over the Hells and tell them to shove things in the place evil outsiders traditionally shove them).

This is definitely a weak point...


In any case, does V have access to a bunch of dead souls of powerful mages? Because without having those under in your control the ability to cast Souls Splice is about as useful as Wind Walk when you're buried underground.

The souls of 3 powerful mages should be enough to find some more souls. Of course, that's an assumption on my part, and you know what happens when you assume...


And regarding the ability to blow up a sun or whatever, has he researched the spell Blow Up The Sun? Having the greatest arcane power doesn't make him omnipotent or able to ignore the fundamental rules of the magic system. He still has to have the spell to cast it.

Funny thing, I actually found a way to destroy a sun in D&D. It mixes in real world physics, though not by much. Basically it uses a flying stronghold with the prismatic wall augmentation. Prismatic wall destroys anything, which includes solar mass. Fly into the center (or rather, repeatedly use greater teleport) and the force of gravity will suck everything into the prismatic wall. Once the sun loses enough mass, it goes nova. I'm actually go to do this in a game (or at least attempt to). It's a high-powered game though, so such things are expected (Shhhh, don't tell anyone...).

But that was just an amusing diversion.

While I don't think that V has time to research epic spells, I don't find it unreasonable that one of the spliced souls did. The whole Blow Up The Sun was just hyperbole.



Find me some, and I'll gladly cede the point.

To your demand, my own demand: find me proof that he must tell the truth when speaking in green.

Now, the default assumption of any intelligent being is that they have the capacity to tell the truth or to lie. Therefore, arguing that he must always tell the truth is arguing for the positive. Therefore, the burden of proof lies on you, not on me.

Now, the one thing which I think would point out that shows that he must tell the truth was when he wanted to tell Roy where Xykon was going to next, but the question forced him to do otherwise. However, Tiamat is Lawful Evil so it would not be a stretch to say that the Oracle is as well. The exchange of money for prophecy is a binding contract, so he had to answer the question. In both cases when he told Roy about Belkar dying, it was unsolicited (and, thus, not under any contract).

And please note, I'm once again not saying that the Oracle is lying, merely that he could be. And as for the reason, a good one could be the fact that he has repeatedly said that he doesn't like the party and in particular has pointed out Belkar (which probably has to do with said killing of said Oracle).

(Plus, I'm not really arguing for Tiamat being personally involved. It's extremely unlikely and was merely mentioned as something that was possible but sure as heck wasn't probable. That was definitely more on the wankery side of theory/fan wankery)


The fact that you're publicly arguing in favor of this nonsense implies that you're trying to be convince someone other than yourself.

Please don't resort to insults. Or to psychoanalyzing me.

As for arguing the point, let me point out again what I said: we all are different people with different experiences. If I only believed what I thought was true, then I could never advance myself. By arguing points, we are able to both efficiently exchange positions and allow us to more concretely fix what we know in our own heads. And I'm not trying to pull your leg or troll you or anything like that: I truly believe.

Heck, I've definitely seen things pointed out in this thread that I hadn't thought of before, both from what others have said and what my own research has shown (which is forced upon me by trying to defend my position).


"I ... I must succeed" and to himself

And, now, to go on the attack (as it were):
The prophecy has been fulfilled.

What where the four words that V said?

To what being (not beings), did he say these four words to?

Xykon used Superb Dispelling to get rid of V's spells. In addition to proving himself an epic caster level, casting Superb Dispelling requires an opposed caster level check. Does this imply that no spellcaster has a CL higher than 19 + Xykon's CL? (We'll assume that Xykon cast a variant version of the spell that doesn't deal backlash damage)

Why did none of the Soul Splicees have Tenacious Magic? Especially for protection spells, for which it is essential at epic level.


(Note: If you say that the OOtS universe doesn't follow the D&D universe for any of these questions, then I could also use the same argument for my position. Which can really only lead to mutually-assured annoyance)

[Kish]

The prophecy has been fulfilled.

What where the four words that V said?

"I...I must succeed."


To what being (not beings), did he say these four words to?

Vaarsuvius.


Xykon used Superb Dispelling to get rid of V's spells. In addition to proving himself an epic caster level, casting Superb Dispelling requires an opposed caster level check. Does this imply that no spellcaster has a CL higher than 19 + Xykon's CL? (We'll assume that Xykon cast a variant version of the spell that doesn't deal backlash damage)

Why did none of the Soul Splicees have Tenacious Magic? Especially for protection spells, for which it is essential at epic level.
Neither of these is necessary. For the duration of this post only, I'll accept your tactical assertions and, again, your equation of ultimate arcane power with winning fights. That only requires that the answer to both these questions be, "Haerta did."

Edit: Actually, looking more closely, a Class Level greater than 19 plus 28 or whatever Xykon's thoroughly-epic Class Level is?! If you think a lack of level 47+ spellcasters strains credibility, you're functioning on certain assumptions about power level that I won't follow you to even for one post. Haley's not even sure there are any 17th (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0579.html)-level clerics in the world, remember?


Choose one spell you know or spell-like ability you possess. Whenever the chosen form of magic would otherwise end due to a dispel effect, the magic is instead only suppressed for 1d4 rounds.

Tenacious Magic, taken multiple times with a staggering expenditure of epic feats for, coincidentally, the precise buffs Vaarsuvius cast, would still be useless there. 1d4 rounds after Xykon cast Superb Dispelling, the Soul Splice was over, even if the die came up 1, and the fiends made it perfectly clear that the Splice ending would end all ongoing-duration spells cast during the Splice.


(We'll assume that Xykon cast a variant version of the spell that doesn't deal backlash damage)

Well, it's that, or come up with an explanation for why Vaarsuvius survived casting the epic spells they did.

[TooManySecrets]

So, as soon as V said "I ... I must succeed" he gained ultimate arcane power?


"Haerta did."

Well played.

However, Xykon has not been able to teleport vast armies like Ganoron, which would probably imply that Ganoron is a good deal higher level. Which means that Xykon got lucky (or that Ganoron was only good at teleporting...). Of course, lady luck has proved herself a whore and, well, you know the rest.

(And actually, the "Does this imply that no spellcaster has a CL higher than 19 + Xykon's CL?" is necessary. If there was such a spellcaster, then ultimate arcane power would mean having that CL. And Xykon wouldn't be able to dispel the spells. There could still be spellcasters with a higher CL than Xykon, but +19 is the limit)



Haley's not even sure there are any 17th (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0579.html)-level clerics in the world, remember?

Given that there is at least 4 epic level casters (Xykon and the splicees), then she's obviously wrong. (Though not about cleric. After all, these have all been arcane spellcasters. But wrong about there not being high-level casters in general)


Edit: Actually, looking more closely, a Class Level greater than 19 plus 28 or whatever Xykon's thoroughly-epic Class Level is?! If you think a lack of level 47+ spellcasters strains credibility, you're functioning on certain assumptions about power level that I won't follow you to even for one post.

Ah, but there only has to be one. Then V's power isn't ultimate (unless, once again, we assume that this is his "personal" ultimate). And the Oracle lied under contract.

I don't think that that proves anything, but I guess if I could somehow prove that there are higher level spellcasters? I like to have stuff like decided ahead of time.

[Nimrod's Son]

To your demand, my own demand: find me proof that he must tell the truth when speaking in green.

Now, the default assumption of any intelligent being is that they have the capacity to tell the truth or to lie. Therefore, arguing that he must always tell the truth is arguing for the positive. Therefore, the burden of proof lies on you, not on me.
But we're not talking about "any intelligent being" here. We're talking about a freaking Oracle. The whole point of Oracles in fiction is that they aren't lying when they give a prophecy. Can you think of an example in all of fiction where an Oracle has flat out lied? If you can show me that, I can show you a badly-written piece of trash.

So no, if you think he's lying, the burden of proof is on you.


Heck, I've definitely seen things pointed out in this thread that I hadn't thought of before
I haven't. Neither, I suspect, has Optimystik, Adrakan, or Kish. :smallwink:

[Optimystik]

Have you even stopped to consider that the Giant may have made the Oracle a follower of Tiamat for a good reason? Why did he pick that particular religion/goddess for the Oracle? Yeah, he may have just out of the blue decided he'd try something a little different and made a generic oracle who serves the evil dragon goddess, but we're not exactly in his head so that we can check.

That motivation has been addressed in the comic. The Oracle has his powers so that he can prophesy for Tiamat's dragons, and he uses his powers on the side for the other races to earn some money. Both he himself and Mama say this. If you choose not to believe them that's fine, but you need some sort of indication why they would want to lie, especially when they have no reason to do so.


I've also pointed out that him telling Roy about Belkar's death could either be idle/entertaining chatter (when he was in a hurry to meet Mama dragon and not fond of Roy), or something he planned way in advance because, you know, he's a freakin Oracle.

How does that indicate he's lying? I'm still waiting.
If he really has as much foresight as you say, he can easily tell the truth in such a way as to be manipulative, just as he did before. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0567.html) Again, he has no reason to lie.


Want more scenes that could fit into subtle foreshadowing?

Strip 428 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0428.html) , my inspiration here. Replace Paladins with Tropers.

The "shell game" was foreshadowed (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0416.html) too. None of your claims concerning the Oracle and Tiamat have received the same treatment. Thanks for proving my point.


To your demand, my own demand: find me proof that he must tell the truth when speaking in green.

He is an Oracle; the default assumption is that his prophecies are true, especially since his track record is currently 100%. The onus is on you, my friend.


And please note, I'm once again not saying that the Oracle is lying, merely that he could be. And as for the reason, a good one could be the fact that he has repeatedly said that he doesn't like the party and in particular has pointed out Belkar (which probably has to do with said killing of said Oracle).

That is no reason for him to lie about Belkar's death. The fact that he dislikes Belkar is reason for him to let it slip at every opportunity, which he does.


Please don't resort to insults. Or to psychoanalyzing me.

I have never insulted you; if you read my posts, all my scorn is directed at your argument, and that's where it will stay.

Nor am I analyzing you. You're posting a theory on a public forum; the most logical reason is that you want to share that theory with others. QED.

[Aldrakan]

I know, but I was just trying for expediency. OH WELL.

So, let's say would the power be possible to attain with wish? Yes, wish uses up XP but locate object for a ring of wishes doesn't (though once again we get into the issue of whether V had the presence of mind and patience to do so. Given what happened, probably not). Or gating in a genie and getting wishes from him. (Yes, this makes it so that he spends more time in the Hells, but when you have the souls of every single mage who every lived, I think you might be able to stomp all over the Hells and tell them to shove things in the place evil outsiders traditionally shove them).

No. No it's not, which is why every mage who attains a ninth level spell slot doesn't just Wish for power, then Wish for power, and keep on until they're all powerful. Because Wish is not a very reliable spell.

By the way, "trying for expediency" here seems a rather disingenuous attempt to enter in the assumption that arcane power can do anything, thus making what we're discussing an established premise.

Regarding the having the souls of all mages, I think you're missing the point that soul splice has an extremely limited duration, which I'm prepared to bet would be broken by death.



The souls of 3 powerful mages should be enough to find some more souls. Of course, that's an assumption on my part, and you know what happens when you assume...

And how exactly do they take possession of them so they can be soul spliced? The fiends have a divine contract with the gods giving them power over the souls. V does not, so it's a pretty big leap to assume he can get the same authority over them without asking the gods for it. And they would say NO. And lest we forget, V does not know how to cast Soul Splice, and presumably nor do any of the spliced souls.




But that was just an amusing diversion.

While I don't think that V has time to research epic spells, I don't find it unreasonable that one of the spliced souls did. The whole Blow Up The Sun was just hyperbole.

Yes, I was aware of that, I was simply continuing the analogy. But the souls did have epic spells. Like say FAMILICIDE.
They used a bunch of epic spell slots. They weren't made for a 100th level caster of course, because the souls aren't a single entity, they're three different people of lower level, and so would hardly waste their time researching spells they can't cast in case after they're dead they're linked with other mages and sent back to the material plane. They didn't always have the perfect spell for every situation, and it would be unrealistic if they did.

[Nimrod's Son]

They didn't always have the perfect spell for every situation, and it would be unrealistic if they did.

But what they did have was access to epic spells from all three schools. No one else in history has had that, and no one else has even a chance of it happening again for at least a century. Sounds pretty "ultimate" to me.

[Kish]

Ah, but there only has to be one. Then V's power isn't ultimate (unless, once again, we assume that this is his "personal" ultimate). And the Oracle lied under contract.

I don't think that that proves anything, but I guess if I could somehow prove that there are higher level spellcasters? I like to have stuff like decided ahead of time.
I think nearly any other approach would serve you better than starting with the assumption of level 47+ spellcasters. Especially since you still haven't addressed the whole, "Ultimate Arcane Power=Vaarsuvius+Haerta+Ganonron+Jephton, Xykon's punching bag=Vaarsuvius+Ganonron+Jephton, and the fiends spelled out that Haerta was the most powerful spliced mage by a considerable margin" part, so even if you could somehow prove that there are level 47+ spellcasters in the OotS universe it still wouldn't work.

[TooManySecrets]

I have never insulted you; if you read my posts, all my scorn is directed at your argument, and that's where it will stay.

Nor am I analyzing you. You're posting a theory on a public forum; the most logical reason is that you want to share that theory with others. QED.

I apologize then. I guess I was reading too much of what I wanted to be true into your comments and that's just sloppy thinking on my part.


I appreciate what you're trying to do. You see somebody who's thinking is fuzzy and is holding beliefs that you know to be wrong. So let me put this as bluntly as possible:

I believe that there is a possibility that the Oracle might have lied concerning Belkar's death, that Tiamat might have additional motives to making sure that the OOtS succeed, and that V has not yet achieved ultimate arcane power that the Oracle said he would. There is no concrete supporting evidence for these being the case, just gut feelings, wishful thinking, and evidence which can be interpreted in multiple ways. These are just pure conjecture on my part. I do not require, or expect, anyone else to agree with me on any of these points.
I hope that answers any questions you might have. I realize fully that if this was a court of law or a logically debate, I would not have a single leg to stand on and would get laughed out.



But we're not talking about "any intelligent being" here. We're talking about a freaking Oracle. The whole point of Oracles in fiction is that they aren't lying when they give a prophecy. Can you think of an example in all of fiction where an Oracle has flat out lied? If you can show me that, I can show you a badly-written piece of trash.

So if I can't think of one (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Availability_heuristic), it proves that I'm wrong. And even if I do, you've already made up your mind that the example is from a piece of trash and thus isn't worth your time or considation. So no matter what I do I'm wrong.

Correct?



I think nearly any other approach would serve you better than starting with the assumption of level 47+ spellcasters. Especially since you still haven't addressed the whole, "Ultimate Arcane Power=Vaarsuvius+Haerta+Ganonron+Jephton, Xykon's punching bag=Vaarsuvius+Ganonron+Jephton, and the fiends spelled out that Haerta was the most powerful spliced mage by a considerable margin" part, so even if you could somehow prove that there are level 47+ spellcasters in the OotS universe it still wouldn't work.

I had forgotten about Haerta being the most powerful. Doesn't prove that Ganonron or Jephton isn't at the magic number, but it doesn't look good.

And, I would have to prove that there are at least 2 19+Xykon CL casters. If I proved the existence of one, that one could be Haerta and that wouldn't do me any good.

Not that I have the info available to prove that there exists any 19+Xykon CL at all. Or ever will. Rich doesn't use D&D mechanics for the story, so I guess I've been going in the completely wrong direction. Hmmm...

[Aldrakan]

But what they did have was access to epic spells from all three schools. No one else in history has had that, and no one else has even a chance of it happening again for at least a century. Sounds pretty "ultimate" to me.

Oh yes I agree. He had greater power than any other mage, which fulfills the Oracle's prophecy. He simply wasn't omnipotent. Which isn't surprising, given that thus far nothing in the OotS is invincible or all powerful, even the gods.

[Nimrod's Son]

So no matter what I do I'm wrong.

Correct?
No; there's always the "conceding the point" option.

[Jackel]

That motivation has been addressed in the comic. The Oracle has his powers so that he can prophesy for Tiamat's dragons, and he uses his powers on the side for the other races to earn some money. Both he himself and Mama say this. If you choose not to believe them that's fine, but you need some sort of indication why they would want to lie, especially when they have no reason to do so.

I was not referring to the Oracle's motivation.
I was referring to the author's choice to make him that way.


How does that indicate he's lying? I'm still waiting.
If he really has as much foresight as you say, he can easily tell the truth in such a way as to be manipulative, just as he did before. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0567.html) Again, he has no reason to lie.

...He has little reason to entertain Roy's request, and yet he does? You really don't see that as even a little bit suspicious?

It must be my Improved Paranoia kicking in.


The "shell game" was foreshadowed (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0416.html) too. None of your claims concerning the Oracle and Tiamat have received the same treatment. Thanks for proving my point.

"Don't get caught up in your presumptions."

You really don't think the author could be trying to tell you something?

You can't say "Oh well the Oracle must be telling the truth, because that's what an Oracle does!" because that would imply that there could be no experimentation in writing, and that every story would mirror another to the point where there's no or little variety...

I find that vision for literature to be a dark and bleak one.


That is no reason for him to lie about Belkar's death. The fact that he dislikes Belkar is reason for him to let it slip at every opportunity, which he does.

Maybe if he were so petty that it could be considered a derangement. So far even Miko had a more believable character than that.


I have never insulted you; if you read my posts, all my scorn is directed at your argument, and that's where it will stay.

Repeatedly threatening to leave the discussion as if there were nothing to discuss implies that you look upon others with derision and scorn.

[TooManySecrets]

No; there's always the "conceding the point" option.

No, that means "I'm wrong but I'm working on correcting that". Plus, there's always the option of "My argument is wrong, but that doesn't mean you're correct". Which I think I'm probably going to have to go with.

If I can't use D&D mechanics, then we rapidly stray into fan wankery. Well, more serious fan wankery. And the only thing that can lead to is people getting upset.

I guess, at the end of this, the only thing I can say is that I'll still hold out for other possibilities of the various prophecies until they're actually confirmed, keeping in mind that the first prophecy in the comic was thought to be confirmed and actually wasn't.

Which I guess don't amount to a hill of beans. Sooner or later, time will tell.

[Optimystik]

I was not referring to the Oracle's motivation.
I was referring to the author's choice to make him that way.

He was made a kobold for the humor, and a follower of Tiamat because that's who they worship. I don't see the difficulty there.


...He has little reason to entertain Roy's request, and yet he does? You really don't see that as even a little bit suspicious?

It must be my Improved Paranoia kicking in.

He was repeating a previously-made prophecy about the death of a person that he very strongly dislikes. He also spoke directly to us - the readers - during that same prophecy. Why would he lie?


"Don't get caught up in your presumptions."

You really don't think the author could be trying to tell you something?

You can't say "Oh well the Oracle must be telling the truth, because that's what an Oracle does!" because that would imply that there could be no experimentation in writing, and that every story would mirror another to the point where there's no or little variety...

I find that vision for literature to be a dark and bleak one.

In fantasy, prophecies come true. They may not mean what the character thought they meant, or they might come true only to be nullified by a subsequent event (Macbeth DID become king for a little while, after all), but for the soothsaying character to jump up and say "gotcha!" is jarring at best and poor writing at worst. Hence, it is extremely unlikely.


Maybe if he were so petty that it could be considered a derangement. So far even Miko had a more believable character than that.

Now I'm positive you have no basis for anything you're saying. The Oracle IS petty!

"Where is Xykon?" "In his throne room."
"Sorry, only one question per customer." "But I could just leave and walk back in!"
"I suppose that string of insults was absolutely necessary?"

He's an ass, and that's what an ass who could tell the future would do - constantly remind someone they don't like (and their coworkers) of their impending death.


Repeatedly threatening to leave the discussion as if there were nothing to discuss implies that you look upon others with derision and scorn.

You can keep trying to make this personal if you want to, but it really isn't. It's your argument that I'm frustrated with, not you.

And "threatening to leave?" When did I do that? :smallconfused:

[TooManySecrets]

And "threatening to leave?" When did I do that? :smallconfused:


Believe what you like, I'm done arguing with you.

That's pretty cut-and-dry.

[Jackel]

He was made a kobold for the humor, and a follower of Tiamat because that's who they worship. I don't see the difficulty there.

Can I buy your mind reading device?

I think it's obvious we have different tastes. Personally, I'd be more disappointed if the giant used a kobold as the Oracle for some humor I didn't particularly find funny, than if he pulled a twist which is incredibly likely to happen in real-life, but somehow unthinkable in story telling.


He was repeating a previously-made prophecy about the death of a person that he very strongly dislikes. He also spoke directly to us - the readers - during that same prophecy. Why would he lie?

Yes, he spoke directly to us, and we already know about Belkar's death. The heck? That one could go either for or against his truthfulness since it's a writing tool that most people are accustomed to, but it's also kinda awkward. Why would the Giant make it absolutely clear that Belkar was going to die and how does that add to the story?

Don't mistake my musings for certainty that the Oracle must be plotting something or that the prophecy won't occur. I just find it suspicious and enough (for me) to cast his words into doubt.


In fantasy, prophecies come true. They may not mean what the character thought they meant, or they might come true only to be nullified by a subsequent event (Macbeth DID become king for a little while, after all), but for the soothsaying character to jump up and say "gotcha!" is jarring at best and poor writing at worst. Hence, it is extremely unlikely.

Why? Please explain why the story becomes better when you know what's going to happen. Is it because you find it more entertaining to speculate exactly HOW it will occur?

Wouldn't good writing be characterized by... oh I dunno... how the story made the reader feel? If he pulled it off in a way that was completely unexpected but pulled the emotions of the reader into it, I'd call the effort a stunning success.


Now I'm positive you have no basis for anything you're saying. The Oracle IS petty!

"Where is Xykon?" "In his throne room."
"Sorry, only one question per customer." "But I could just leave and walk back in!"
"I suppose that string of insults was absolutely necessary?"

He's an ass, and that's what an ass who could tell the future would do - constantly remind someone they don't like (and their coworkers) of their impending death.

He's a smart ass. He doesn't appear to be an obsessive moron who constantly fumes over the fate of a single halfling when he has probably encountered the type before.

Besides that, why would the Oracle think Roy cares for the crazy liability that is Belkar? If anything it would lift Roy's spirit if he believed Belkar would finally be out of his hair (erm... baldness).


You can keep trying to make this personal if you want to, but it really isn't. It's your argument that I'm frustrated with, not you.

And "threatening to leave?" When did I do that? :smallconfused:

...


I should have known I'd open THAT can of worms. We're done here.


As for the 4-words thing, I'm not surprised in the least that you two are in agreement on that, as well. Believe what you like, I'm done arguing with you.

[Optimystik]

Can I buy your mind reading device?

I think it's obvious we have different tastes. Personally, I'd be more disappointed if the giant used a kobold as the Oracle for some humor I didn't particularly find funny, than if he pulled a twist which is incredibly likely to happen in real-life, but somehow unthinkable in story telling.

What are you talking about? There are no prophets in real life. That's why it's a fantasy trope.


Yes, he spoke directly to us, and we already know about Belkar's death. The heck? That one could go either for or against his truthfulness since it's a writing tool that most people are accustomed to, but it's also kinda awkward. Why would the Giant make it absolutely clear that Belkar was going to die and how does that add to the story?

Don't mistake my musings for certainty that the Oracle must be plotting something or that the prophecy won't occur. I just find it suspicious and enough (for me) to cast his words into doubt.

Foreshadowing: a literary device that increases dramatic tension by revealing future events without detail.

It's used throughout literature, even in Shakespeare (again I cite Macbeth as the ur-example, and it's used in many of his other works too. Julius Caesar anyone?)


Why? Please explain why the story becomes better when you know what's going to happen. Is it because you find it more entertaining to speculate exactly HOW it will occur?

Exactly. Now you're getting it.
But I suppose Shakespeare is a bad writer for telling his audience what will happen too.


Wouldn't good writing be characterized by... oh I dunno... how the story made the reader feel? If he pulled it off in a way that was completely unexpected but pulled the emotions of the reader into it, I'd call the effort a stunning success.

If you foreshadow something and then it doesn't happen, that's bad writing. Why foreshadow it at all then? It's wasted words, wasted green in the speech bubble, etc.


He's a smart ass. He doesn't appear to be an obsessive moron who constantly fumes over the fate of a single halfling when he has probably encountered the type before.

"Fumes?" He seems more than happy to point out Belkar's death. There's no malice in it, more like satisfaction.


Besides that, why would the Oracle think Roy cares for the crazy liability that is Belkar? If anything it would lift Roy's spirit if he believed Belkar would finally be out of his hair (erm... baldness).

The Oracle thinks they are willing colleagues; Roy had to set him straight. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0572.html)

"More like 'unfortunate responsibility' or 'lodestone.'"


...

*snip*

How is that "threatening to leave?" Did you hack the board and make yourself the author of this thread when I wasn't looking? :smallconfused:

My statements represented a refusal on my part to further entertain your argument on the premises which you previously stipulated. In other words, I'm not even going to address your belief that Belkar may survive, because it is based on a flawed premise to begin with - that the Oracle would lie for no reason.

[David Argall]

I actually wouldn't be all that surprised if Rich has a bit of an idea where the prophecy is going but makes it up as it comes along. Heck, that's what I do when I GM. Make the prophecy just ambiguous enough that it can mean anything, then an opportunity presents itself, and BAM! players think you've planned this thing far in advance.

The more precise you make the prophecy, the more rash such a policy is. With V we have a prophecy with several elements and a distinct amount of precision. You don't need to know exactly when, where, and how in such a case, but you had better have some pretty good ideas that will allow you to fix it to a number of circumstances.
We know that our writer has done a lot of advance planning on this story and prophecies are an obvious thing to plan. The most likely situation is that the temptation was planned out before the party reached the Oracle.

[Serenity]

To refine my above theory: after Belkar dies, he will be the subject of a Reincarnate spell. This will not only bring him back as a woman, but, for extra bitterness points, as a kobold woman! (Thus neatly accounting for times when the Oracle used 'the halfling' instead of just 'he'.)

[Jackel]

"Fumes?" He seems more than happy to point out Belkar's death. There's no malice in it, more like satisfaction.

Yes, as in constantly fumes about the halfling and uses Belkar's final fate to give himself a mood boost.

Since you seem to think everything he says is truth: before he gave the private prophecy to Roy he admitted he was just trying to get the most fun out of Belkar before he dies.

Not that he cared if Belkar did die, but that he wanted to get some entertainment while he could.

Which (if he was lying) would lead into the conversation which led to the prophecy for Roy without seeming out of place.


But I suppose Shakespeare is a bad writer for telling his audience what will happen too.

Stop putting words in my mouth please.


The Oracle thinks they are willing colleagues; Roy had to set him straight.

"More like 'unfortunate responsibility' or 'lodestone.'"

Umm... notice the placement. If anything that helps my argument since Roy mentions that right before the Oracle says Belkar is not too long for this world.


In other words, I'm not even going to address your belief that Belkar may survive, because it is based on a flawed premise to begin with - that the Oracle would lie for no reason.

My premise was never that the Oracle would lie for no reason, but I'm not surprised that you'd continue to ignore what I'm actually saying when you've so far favored building strawmen instead.

Personally, I entertain the notion that Belkar does die but not quite according to prophecy. I only entered this thread to dispel the idea that Belkar MUST die.

[Kish]

I only entered this thread to dispel the idea that Belkar MUST die.
There was no need for that. Many, many people have insisted that Belkar will survive ever since the Oracle first mentioned that he shouldn't bother funding his IRA, though I'm personally pretty sure they're all going to be disappointed.

[TooManySecrets]

How is that "threatening to leave?".

Most of the time, when somebody says that they're done arguing in the context of an argument, that means that they're going to leave. It is entirely possible for somebody to stop arguing and just stand there, but that's more of an edge case than the expected outcome.


though I'm personally pretty sure they're all going to be disappointed.

Whatever happens, I think we're going to be okay with it. Rich has proven himself an excellent storyteller.

[Optimystik]

Yes, as in constantly fumes about the halfling and uses Belkar's final fate to give himself a mood boost.

So you admit that Belkar's imminent death is unavoidable? Or are you using that in a "we'll all die someday" kind of way?

And he doesn't have to be particularly upset to get a mood lift from thinking of a dead halfling: not only are they racial enemies, he has a specific reason to hate this one.


Since you seem to think everything he says is truth: before he gave the private prophecy to Roy he admitted he was just trying to get the most fun out of Belkar before he dies.

I "think everything he says is truth" because I have no reason to think otherwise. He's a prophet, prophets tell people what's going to happen. Standard fantasy procedure.

Rich not only had him say it - repeatedly - but he also made it "official" via prophetic green text. It's a done deal, period.


Not that he cared if Belkar did die, but that he wanted to get some entertainment while he could.

Which (if he was lying) would lead into the conversation which led to the prophecy for Roy without seeming out of place.

I didn't see anything out of place in that room taking the Oracle at face value. Everything he said and did fit his character, and likewise for Roy.


Stop putting words in my mouth please.

You're the one who questioned the literary benefit of foreshadowing, not me. It still boggles my mind, by the way.


Umm... notice the placement. If anything that helps my argument since Roy mentions that right before the Oracle says Belkar is not too long for this world.

He says that specifically because the Oracle refers to Belkar as his "friend."


My premise was never that the Oracle would lie for no reason, but I'm not surprised that you'd continue to ignore what I'm actually saying when you've so far favored building strawmen instead.

I know you have a reason; my argument is that your reason is no reason at all.

Tiamat is Evil: Yes, but she's Lawful Evil. And that's assuming she can influence what the Oracle sees.
The Oracle is a bastard: All the more reason for him to harp on an unfortunate future.
The Oracle has no reason to tell Roy: He thinks they are companions, and he's petty enough to talk to third parties about Belkar. He even gabs about the halfling to the lizardfolk that raised him.


Personally, I entertain the notion that Belkar does die but not quite according to prophecy. I only entered this thread to dispel the idea that Belkar MUST die.

He will die exactly as according to prophecy. It's our interpretation of the prophecy's details that is uncertain.


Most of the time, when somebody says that they're done arguing in the context of an argument, that means that they're going to leave. It is entirely possible for somebody to stop arguing and just stand there, but that's more of an edge case than the expected outcome.

If I just stood here, who would set you guys straight? :smallsigh:
Anyway, as I explained I was done arguing the "Belkar will die" point. I've been exclusively discussing the "Oracle might be lying" premise of that point.

[hamishspence]

And he doesn't have to be particularly upset to get a mood lift from thinking of a dead halfling: not only are they racial enemies, he has a specific reason to hate this one.

Its more kobolds and gnomes in standard D&D- they don't dislike halflings nearly as much.

Still, OOTS may have swapped them round.

[Jackel]

He says that specifically because the Oracle refers to Belkar as his "friend."

And then the Oracle immediately says afterwords: "At any rate, your pal is not long for this world..."

Oh I see, he was ignoring Roy! Because that's the only way you'd make sense here.


I know you have a reason; my argument is that your reason is no reason at all.

Tiamat is Evil: Yes, but she's Lawful Evil. And that's assuming she can influence what the Oracle sees.

I considered Tiamat being Lawful Evil a page or two ago.

The problems with that are A) it's Rich's setting and we only know she's a part of the Evil Pantheon and B) Our other supposedly LE villains (Nale and Kubuto) lie through their teeth.


The Oracle is a bastard: All the more reason for him to harp on an unfortunate future.

I was under the impression that he was an intelligent bastard. Harping about the halfling's death seems more annoying than anything.


The Oracle has no reason to tell Roy: He thinks they are companions, and he's petty enough to talk to third parties about Belkar. He even gabs about the halfling to the lizardfolk that raised him.

He gabs about how the halfing killed him... to the people who just raised him... Unless I missed the "but he'll die! He'll die! Mwahahahaha!" somewhere.


He will die exactly as according to prophecy. It's our interpretation of the prophecy's details that is uncertain.

Hey, it's your money on the table.

[Optimystik]

Hey, it's your money on the table.

I'll remember that when I collect yours. And now I really am done.

Lying oracles... ha.

[Jackel]

I'll remember that when I collect yours. And now I really am done.

Hehe. How exactly will you go about proving I was wrong when I only claimed it was a possibility, and not a certainty? :smallamused:


Lying oracles... ha.

Hah indeed.

[Nimrod's Son]

Wouldn't good writing be characterized by... oh I dunno... how the story made the reader feel? If he pulled it off in a way that was completely unexpected but pulled the emotions of the reader into it, I'd call the effort a stunning success.
Sure, in the same way I'd consider someone who leaped off the Empire State Building and landed on the moon a stunning success.

I'd consider someone who attempted to achieve that and ended up plunging to their embarrassing death on the pavement of Fifth Avenue a complete idiot for even trying, though.

[Berserk Monk]

is not going to see the Oracle again

When was this established?:smallconfused:

[TooManySecrets]

Sure, in the same way I'd consider someone who leaped off the Empire State Building and landed on the moon a stunning success.

I'd consider someone who attempted to achieve that and ended up plunging to their embarrassing death on the pavement of Fifth Avenue a complete idiot for even trying, though.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but are you saying that what Jackel suggests is impossible to do well and, in fact, anybody who attempts to do it is a complete idiot?

[David Argall]

When was this established?:smallconfused:

572 "I saw no reason not to have my fun where I could."

If he was going to see Belkar again, he would have a later chance to have fun with him. So this was his last chance.