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Xefas
2009-08-12, 10:00 PM
I love the Tome of Battle, not just for making martial characters interesting to play again, not just for partially bridging the mechanical gap between martial characters and spellcasting characters, but also for giving martial character genuinely impressive abilities.

I never thought it was particularly fair that being superhumanly smart allowed someone trained to use that intelligence to create life and matter, reshape the minds and bodies of those around them, and revise the way reality itself functions, whereas someone who is just as superhumanly strong and skilled is just capable of swinging his sword a little harder.

The Tome of Battle takes a few steps in the right direction, with things like Balance on the Sky or Iron Heart Surge, but I don't think it's enough; most of the maneuvers they can do are just running a little faster, hitting harder, jumping higher, and the maneuvers that actually accomplish something amazing are "supernatural". Superhuman is superhuman, and I don't see why there has to be this great disconnect between the power of magic and martial arts. Magic is reading books to the max. What can using muscles other than your brain to the max accomplish?

I hope these feats can illustrate more of what I'm talking about. (More to come)

Soldiers of the Earth
With a stroke of your blade, you carve into the earth a legion of stone warriors, and with a glorious battle cry, you shake the rock and soil, instilling it with the zeal and bloodlust to rise forth and kill in your name.
Prerequisite: At least one 8th level White Raven maneuver, Diplomacy 18 ranks
Benefit: Once per day, as a full-round action, while you stand near at least 200 cubic feat of earthen material, you may create 100 humanoid constructs that function as Medium Animated Objects with Hardness 10, except that (at your choice) they may be wielding (and deal damage appropriate to) a simple or martial weapon of your choice, made from the same stone as the warriors. You may not control more than 100 stone soldiers at a time.

This is an extraordinary ability, and the constructs themselves are not animated by magic. Your leadership is just that inspiring.

Horizon Leap
Straining your muscles as far as they'll go, you leap into the air. As the ground falls away from you, and the sky rushes past, the whole of the world opens up under your feet. After a few moments, you come crashing back down to the surface.
Prerequisite: At least one 8th level Tiger Claw maneuver, Jump 18 ranks
Benefit: Once per day per point of your Strength or Dexterity modifier (whichever is higher), while you have line of effect to the sky, you may jump as a full-round action into the upper atmosphere. On the following round, you land at a place of your choice somewhere on the same planet or planar layer (if you are not on the Prime Material Plane) that still has line of effect to the sky. You take no falling damage from this ability.

This is an extraordinary ability. You're just that good at jumping.

True Mind
The greatest illusion of our existence is the illusion of separation. The planes are all facets of the same reality. The objects within them are all matter brought forth from the same whole. The people are all branches of the same family tree spread out from a single organism to create cultures and civilizations. Time is merely a trick of perception. We were all one once, and we are all still one.
Prerequisite: At least one 8th level Diamond Mind maneuver, Concentration 18 ranks
Benefit: Once per day, as a full round action, you may focus your mind, and briefly fathom the truth of shared existence. You instantly know the location of any single creature or object anywhere in the planes. If the target is a person, you also know their surface thoughts, and what they are perceiving with their senses during the 6 second period you are focusing. You can even perceive senses that you do not have, such as a blind person using this ability on a person who can see, or a mortal using this on a God who has a Portfolio Sense ability.

Creatures unwilling to share their location, thoughts, and senses may make a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 your character level + your Wisdom modifier) to resist the effects of True Mind. Sentient items, artifacts imbued with a will or purpose, and objects being carried by a creature are all allowed a save as well.

Gods with a divine rank of 1 or greater effected by this ability may nullify it without having to make a save. They may, however, voluntarily allow themselves to be wholly or partially effected by it, imparting some or all of their location, thoughts, and senses, as they see fit.

This is an extraordinary ability.

Meek
2009-08-13, 12:16 AM
No offense and all, but maybe you should play Exalted for this kind of thing?

Not even 4e goes this far, and hell, I play 4e, and I thought 4e didn't go far enough! Now I've been forced to revise that because I don't even know what to think! All of these, even for 1/day things that you can only do at 15+ level, are really overboard for D&D 3.5. Hell, they may be overboard for Exalted.

Gorgondantess
2009-08-13, 12:30 AM
....
Those are supernatural abilities. I don't care if you're a badass normal (not linking to tvtropes out of politeness), those are supernatural. If you're just so good at leadership stuff you can make the rocks themselves get up and fight as well as a human, that's not somethign you can just do through skill alone. The point of extraordinary abilities is that they're mundane, things that can be accomplished in this world. Still extraordinary, but...
These are supernatural abilities. They defy the definition of extraordinary.

Xefas
2009-08-13, 12:31 AM
No offense and all, but maybe you should play Exalted for this kind of thing?

Not even 4e goes this far, and hell, I play 4e, and I thought 4e didn't go far enough! Now I've been forced to revise that because I don't even know what to think! All of these, even for 1/day things that you can only do at 15+ level, are really overboard for D&D 3.5. Hell, they may be overboard for Exalted.

I've actually been looking at Exalted for a while now. I'd still rather stick to D&D, though. I don't really want to learn a whole new system, and teach all my players a whole new system at this point in time. And if I was willing to do those things, I'd probably do Mouseguard or Burning Wheel first.

I'd kind of like an explanation as to why these things are overboard, really. At the same levels, spellcasters are so smart (or wise, or badass) they can reverse gravity with a thought, cause localized earthquakes with a gesture of their hands, and turning shrubberies into dragons.

Are those things not at the same level of over-the-topness?


....
Those are supernatural abilities. I don't care if you're a badass normal (not linking to tvtropes out of politeness), those are supernatural. If you're just so good at leadership stuff you can make the rocks themselves get up and fight as well as a human, that's not somethign you can just do through skill alone. The point of extraordinary abilities is that they're mundane, things that can be accomplished in this world. Still extraordinary, but...
These are supernatural abilities. They defy the definition of extraordinary.

If they were mundane, they'd be ordinary. These are "extra"ordinary.

The point is that yes, they *are* doing this through skill alone. That's what makes the level 15 Warblade different from a level 1 Commoner. For a level 1 Commoner, their idea of inspiring is convincing someone to do something they wouldn't normally do.

A level 15 Warblade's idea of inspiring is convincing inanimate objects to do something they wouldn't normally do.

The commoner is ordinary. The Warblade 14 levels higher than he is, is extraordinary.

Thrice Dead Cat
2009-08-13, 12:42 AM
If they were mundane, they'd be ordinary. These are "extra"ordinary.

Okay, and swinging a sword and breathing are both extraordinary. Your point?

aje8
2009-08-13, 12:42 AM
Let me explain the essence of their complant, as I understand it.

You're right that it's ridiculous when the Wizard reverses gravity through pure intellect..... but he does it using MAGIC. Magic is the key element..... see magic can do anything..... that's what makes it reasonable when spellcasters do things.

But.... if there's no magic involved, than ANYONE who's inspring enough should be able to make legions of rock warriors?! That's kinda rdiciulous. Even if such people were 1 in a billion...... they still exist without magic and therein lies the realism issue.

Hyooz
2009-08-13, 12:47 AM
I'd kind of like an explanation as to why these things are overboard, really. At the same levels, spellcasters are so smart (or wise, or badass) they can reverse gravity with a thought, cause localized earthquakes with a gesture of their hands, and turning shrubberies into dragons.

Are those things not at the same level of over-the-topness?


Ok, you are seriously mis-interpreting the whole 'classes' thing. Wizards can't remake reality because they're smart. They can do that because they are wizards. A wizard can have an Int score of 14 and still conjure fire. A warblade can have an Int score and not remake reality because that isn't his field of study. He studied with the blade. High scores don't automatically incur amazing powers.

And the whole idea of the ToB classes was to keep them 'mundane,' but give them tricks, because they studied in these specific techniques to have special effects. They can't do these things because of a high score. A high score helps them do it better, maybe, but has nothing to do with the capability.

And none of this even addresses how poorly designed these maneuvers are in general. 100 extra warriors? Ok, that's cool. Welcome to either rolling a ridiculous amount of stuff or them being completely pointless because lol AoE.

Jumping across the world in one round? Welcome to speed of light concerns. What if the jumper runs into something mid-leap? Does he take fall damage then? There's all kinds of issues here.

And an all-powerful, universal divination? Wow. No saves for anyone, at all ever? Wow.

I really hope you were trying to make some poorly-conceived point here, and not being serious at all. I'll assume that, and give you the benefit of the doubt.

Ravens_cry
2009-08-13, 12:48 AM
Way, to the way, power of way too magic. I am not saying a gifted swordsmen or archer or similar shouldn't get good toys, but this goes beyond crushing your enemies, seen them driven before you, and hearing the laminations of their women.

Agrippa
2009-08-13, 12:48 AM
I'd probably limit Horizon Leap to 50 feet high plus 25 feet per point above DC and require a DC of 25 to pull it off. I'd also raise the minimum jump rank to 20 or 22. I'd also make True Mind an Epic Feat if I were to use it at all. I consider Soldiers of the Earth irredeemable. Also, the reason why wizards get to warp reality as well as they can is simple. That's what magic is for.

Wizards study the basic foundations of the universe to better manipluate it. They are scientists. Sorcerers alter the universe by sheer force of will while priests use faith and intution to channel the power of their gods or ideals. All of these feats should be considered at least borderline supernatural. In this case the warrior in question is so skilled and adept in on of the martial arts that it might as well be magic.

P.S. By the way, if you really want to keep Soldiers of the Earth one, make it an Epic feat and two, require eighth level Stone Dragon maneuvers too.

Vadin
2009-08-13, 12:55 AM
I thought they were pretty cool and I liked them because they reminded me of Exalted but the rules for Exalted are just a little bit too confusing for my tastes...

Xefas
2009-08-13, 01:21 AM
Okay, so the linchpin is 'magic', then? Something breaks realism, unless you call it 'magic'? Why is that so important?

Superman can fly without magic. The Flash can run hella fast without magic. Wolverine can survive nuclear explosions without magic. Why? Cause they can. They're just that way. They're beyond human abilities. They're extraordinary.

I think once you get to level 15, you've kind of moved away from simply "human" standards.

A level 15 character can, regardless of class, as long as he has Jump as a class skill, do a 40 foot long jump. Without magic of any kind.

The current world record in real life is 29 feet. A level 15 character has already broken realism. He can do crazy inhuman things. Without magic.

Why is going a little farther so much worse? This is 'fantasy', afterall.


I'd probably limit Horizon Leap to 50 feet high plus 25 feet per point above DC and require a DC of 25 to pull it off. I'd also raise the minimum jump rank to 20 or 22. I'd also make True Mind an Epic Feat if I were to use it at all. I consider Soldiers of the Earth irredeemable.

Considering a 7th level spell is better than Horizon Leap in every way, an 8th level spell does essentially what True Mind does, and Soldiers of the Earth is nothing compared to charming or dominating people with actual class levels, I find this assessment somewhat implausible.

How will they unbalance the game, if you can already have party members doing these things at the same level?

Thrice Dead Cat
2009-08-13, 01:26 AM
Superman can fly without magic. The Flash can run hella fast without magic. Wolverine can survive nuclear explosions without magic. Why? Cause they can. They're just that way. They're beyond human abilities. They're extraordinary.

I don't think you understand what that means in terms of DND. Extraordinary means it works no matter what, basically. Dispel magic, antimagic field, anything that says "No" to casters of any kind doesn't stop these abilities.

Now, if you at least made them supernatural, that would be a whole nother story, because, yeah, these dudes are still working under their own power, but that power just so happens to be slightly magical in nature.

EDIT: Superman has the power of the sun, which is a gigantic ball of radioactive goodness. Flash has the Speed Force. Wolverine isn't exactly human. Not a far stretch to call those powers supernatural.

HamsterOfTheGod
2009-08-13, 01:32 AM
<snip>Nice Ex abilities<snip>
These are cool. I would say are Supernatural abilities and so "magical". That is, even if they are using "skill" they actually don't work in an Anti-Magic Field. But they are still better than spells or SLA's because they can't be countered or dispelled, are not subject to SR, don't provoke an AoO and don't require a concentration check. Since these are generally full-roind actions however, I would make them subject to AoO's.

I would make Horizon Leap limited to once per day otherwise it's more powerful than the other abilities.

But otherwise, I think they're pretty good and I can totally understand where you are coming from and where you are going with this...and I like it.

In general to make a feat, just take a spell (teleport), give it a requirement (one 8th level Tiger Claw maneuver, Jump 18) and limit (once per day above ground), give it a name (Horizon Leap) and fluff it (you're jumping).

For ex, fireball, requires one 5th level Desert Wind maneuver, once per day you can cast a fireball for 10d6 by concentrating and throwing your inner fire. Call it the Flaming Wave Strike feat.

Hyooz
2009-08-13, 01:32 AM
Okay, so the linchpin is 'magic', then? Something breaks realism, unless you call it 'magic'? Why is that so important?

Superman can fly without magic. The Flash can run hella fast without magic. Wolverine can survive nuclear explosions without magic. Why? Cause they can. They're just that way. They're beyond human abilities. They're extraordinary.

I think once you get to level 15, you've kind of moved away from simply "human" standards.

A level 15 character can, regardless of class, as long as he has Jump as a class skill, do a 40 foot long jump. Without magic of any kind.

The current world record in real life is 29 feet. A level 15 character has already broken realism. He can do crazy inhuman things. Without magic.

Why is going a little farther so much worse? This is 'fantasy', afterall.


I don't know why you're bringing up comic book characters here. If you want to play Mutants and Masterminds, play Mutants and Masterminds. Aside from that, all the characters you mentioned have explanations for their abilities beyond 'they're just that good.' You're not helping your point bringing them up.

Your Warblade leaping across the world? Has very defined mechanics for how far he can jump at any given ranks in skill, as you mentioned.

And yeah, it's fantasy, and your characters are legendary heroes who can do things beyond what a normal human can do. That does not translate into 'take a feat, leap across the world.' Wizards can cast teleport because they've researched arcane magics to the point where they can manipulate the weave or what-have-you to move great distances.

Yes, magic is the lynchpin. The moment your non-magical characters can do magical things... they're not non-magical anymore. Sorry.

Etrus
2009-08-13, 01:34 AM
Sorry, but I'll be trying (probably unsuccessfully) to ignore the whole Ex. vs. Su. debate for now and just offer my feedback on the feats as they are.

Soldiers of the Earth seems a bit weak - although the multitude of average warriors fits with the myth of Jason sowing dragon's teeth (which is what I thought of when I read it), 100 CR 2 mooks will do almost nothing against a proper opponent - even 8 at a time, they probably won't do any damage (and they'll hamper your mobility). This leads me to think that it's intended for use against enemy mook armies or as a way to conjure 100 little trap-setter-offers. The first occasion, while amazingly flavorful, is far too rare to justify a maneuver that's only effective within it. The second is eh, whatever. I'd think about maybe letting it animate a smaller number of larger objects if desired, perhaps as the animate objects spell itself (with a cap of, say, one colossal object animated).

Horizon Leap is too funny for me, honestly. I'd prefer a warrior using his sword to cut through reality and then step through the hole left behind~ anyways, it's not overpowered in my opinion (well, it's basically a slightly weaker greater teleport, so take that as you will), but it'd induce too many "... lolwut?" responses at my table.

True Mind is kinda fluff-dependent, but eh. I'd allow a saving throw to avoid having your existence temporarily hijacked, which would just give you a momentary glimpse of your surrounding rather than 6 seconds; I'd also make it target only creatures, for fluff reasons. I might end up cutting out the 'you know exactly where he is' part, myself, and just provide the sensory information and what direction he's in/plane he's on - the universe doesn't create memory addresses for itself (unless, y'know, you're running a campaign in the matrix).

So yeah, these are nice maneuvers- they could definitely bring up the nonmagical classes to the quadratic caster power curve if more were made, which in my opinion is a Good Thing. That is, however, entirely up to the DM and how his/her world is constructed - there are plenty of campaigns where fighters hit stuff with pointy sticks until the day they die (and maybe after, if they go to some eternal war-type afterlife), wizards can level cities with a swift action, and it all makes sense and everybody's happy. If that describes your campaign setting, then these aren't for you.

tl;dr: I like these, Soldiers of the Earth is a bit underpowered, Horizon Jump stretches my suspension of disbelief, I'd tweak True Mind before allowing it in my games, and YMMV based on fluff and how one thinks the caster/noncaster divide should work. My apologies for any incomprehensibility of my above post, as I'm amazingly tired and don't write well anyways.

Xefas
2009-08-13, 01:51 AM
I don't think you understand what that means in terms of DND. Extraordinary means it works no matter what, basically. Dispel magic, antimagic field, anything that says "No" to casters of any kind doesn't stop these abilities.

I know that, yes. I'm not sure why you bring that up, though.


EDIT: Superman has the power of the sun, which is a gigantic ball of radioactive goodness. Flash has the Speed Force. Wolverine isn't exactly human. Not a far stretch to call those powers supernatural.

If you stick any of them in an antimagic field, they still work, though. Etrigan, yes, an antimagic field would impede him a bit, as his abilities are magical in nature. Wolverine's aren't. They're just him being him.

Also, I didn't know about the Speed Force. After reading the wikipedia article, I died a little inside. It's...it's so...*sigh*, I don't even know what to call it. It just hurts me a little to know that it exists.



Yes, magic is the lynchpin. The moment your non-magical characters can do magical things... they're not non-magical anymore. Sorry.

Okay, I just have to ask. Who decided that jumping really far is 'magical'?

My point of bringing up the characters that I did was not because they're from comic books. It's because they do things without magic. Even if the Flash is fast because of some "Speed Force" or whatever, its still not magic. It still works in an anti-magic zone.

So, what if I said the Warblade could jump across the world because of the Speed Force, which is an extraordinary ability, in that it works in the antimagic field and can't be magically dispelled. Would that work for you? It's not skill, it's the "Speed Force", insert spooky hand-waving.


Useful Input

I created this less for actual use, and more to see what peoples' reactions would be. It's more a hypothetical thing so I can get to the bottom of why people can't accept explanations for superhuman stuff beyond 'magic, just because'.

I do plan on using these if my group ever plays a super high level game with Tome of Battle in it, though, so I do appreciate the input. I'm attempting to create more in between watching Howl's Moving Castle and replying to this thread, so I suppose I can work on revising the first three as well.

EDIT: Also, I'm getting to the end of my movie. It's 2am, so I think I'm going to bed. I'll be back tomorrow (hopefully with a few new feats).

Milskidasith
2009-08-13, 02:04 AM
I agree with everybody who says they are Su abilities and not Ex; Ex abilities are stuff that can be done by the creature naturally. Jumping into the stratosphere is not natural, even if you consider natural to be "whatever you roll on the jump check.*" Raising up 100 constructs through sheer force of diplomacy is not natural. Having a once per day ability to cast what is essentially an epic level divination spell with CL +infinity, DC +infinity, and being immune to even spells that explicitly say no to such effects is supernatural.

It's not so much that these are unbalanced, though they are; (one is crap, two is a weaker but much stranger teleport, and three is the kind of spell theoretical epic level wizards are in theoretical arms races against with each other). It's just that they don't make sense as Ex abilities or as abilities at all. Yes, magic can get you the same effect as jumping really frigging high and then not taking damage. But magic actually makes it sound kind of reasonable.

Also, your final ability has some really weird fluff; making all of creation into one giant hive mind is, AFAIK, against fluff somewhere.

*This excludes anybody who optimizes jumping to do exactly that, of course.


EDIT: To be clear, extraordinary abilites are the kind of things that come naturally with being an X, and aren't magical in nature. Dragonfire is magical, so it's supernatural. A shambling mound being enhanced by electricity is just something shambling mounds do, so it's Ex. Being able to cause inanimate objects to obey your commands, no matter how useless they are, is not something that is natural to any creature. Being able to jump into the stratosphere is not natural to any creature. Having the ability to see into some kind of weird fluff based hive mind of the universe (which I just can't mesh with individual souls having an afterlife, magical effects like Mind Blank, and all the other fluff I've read) is not a natural ability for anything, even Gods.

Ex abilities = stuff that, while it may not be normal for most things, is natural to that creature, or comes from natural means.

Su abilities = stuff that, while it may not be a spell, is magical or not natural to that creature or comes from unnatural means.

HamsterOfTheGod
2009-08-13, 02:07 AM
Well that is the point. If you create "skill" based abilities which are, in game mechanical effect, just a different way to cast a spell (for ex Horizon Leap is teleport) and at the same time you say that these abilities do not fit into the existing magic system, then you are creating unnecessary problems. In essense you are creating a duplicate system to cast spells.

Why not just call them Supernatural abilities? It detract nothing from what they achieve for the ToB classes.

Fluff wise, it's not a stretch to call them Su abilities and not Ex. Your jump for Horizon Leap is a magical jump. Your concentration for True Mind is magical concentration.

And yeah True Mind should just be the equivalent to Discern Location.

Thrice Dead Cat
2009-08-13, 02:07 AM
I know that, yes. I'm not sure why you bring that up, though.

I appreciate you missing the second part of my post, but anyhow....



Wolverine's aren't. They're just him being him.

And a dragon breathing face melting fire and acid on you is just the dragon being a dragon, but, it's still (Su) and not (Ex). Most of this breaks down to verisimilitude. These people are still themselves, no doubt, but by being themselves they've become more than themselves. They've become magical.

The feats themselves are not really a big issue, from a pure mechanical standpoint. Soldiers of Fortune generates doods that die faster than men clad in pure crimson. Horizon Leap is buying a feat to get Greater Teleport a few times per day. Woo. I'd rather spend moneys.

True Mind is silly and definitely needs a save. Easiest way to adjudicate that would be to treat it like a supernatural ability, so the DC would be something like 10+1/2HD+Cha mod, maybe Str or Con, or Wis, if you feel it's more appropriate.

Hyooz
2009-08-13, 02:14 AM
I really don't think you're getting why bringing up the comic book characters isn't helping you. Not only do their powers rely completely on something that does not exist in typical DnD works (if non-magical types in your setting use the speed force, then more power to you, just don't declare that all non-magical types should be able to do these things in all settings ever,) but the super heroes, even in their worlds are UNIQUE in what they can do. (Ok, this ignores some amount of comic lore, but that's not what this is all about.) More unique than the typical DnD adventurer, where most powerful people are tapping into the same power source (magic, strict training, etc.)

I mean, if this is supposed to be proving some point about what you consider magic (whatever that point might be,) you're doing a poor job. Any given commoner who happened to work on a farm enough to work up his strength should be able to leap across the world basically at-will. Why have any requirements on these at all?

Agrippa
2009-08-13, 02:38 AM
I was just saying that wizards actually study the inner workings of the universe and bend it to their wills through magic. Sorcerers impose their will on the universe through use of raw magical energy. Priests use faith, prayer and intution to perform miracles.

Warblades use highly formulated and unusual if still mundane (in the sense of being non-magical only) combat skills (manuevers) to vanquish their opponents. The feats you are proposing are, in a way, magical in nature due to the amount natural laws they subvert or abuse. However, this is a case of the mundane (if abnormal) becoming pseudomagical through extreme conitioning.

I'd slap the (Su) tag on them of course and change the earthen soldiers created by Soldiers of the Earth into earth elementals (http://srd.pbemnexus.com/monstersEtoF.html#earth-elemental) ranging from medium to greater based on level. Or make them clay golems (http://srd.pbemnexus.com/monstersG.html#clay-golem) without the risk of going berserk due to the fact that said golem is powered by your will and personal magnetism, not a bound spirit. I think of it as being so eloquent and inspirational that your words become magical in and of themselves. Still, since it's a Supernatural ability anti-magic zones have no effect. And I'd make this an Epic feat, it deserves the title.

Omegonthesane
2009-08-13, 08:11 AM
Not getting into the details of everyone saying "fighters never get anything nice ever without magic", but here's a useful link for a little context.

Under Epic Skills (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#escapeArtist), the SRD says that Escape Artist is capable of letting you crawl through a space smaller than your own head, or slip through a gap in a Wall of Force.

More importantly, under the normal Escape Artist (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/escapeArtist.htm) rules, it's DC 30 to pass through a space your shoulders cannot fit into. A 7th level Rogue can take 20 to pull that off, breaking several laws of physics in the process, and that's before I account for Dexterity bonus & synergy.

On the above basis, please stop claiming that just because something is completely beyond all realistic limits means it's supernatural in the context of D&D.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-08-13, 09:30 AM
Extraordinary abilities are nonmagical, though they may break the laws of physics. They are not something that just anyone can do or even learn to do without extensive training.

[...]

Supernatural abilities are magical and go away in an antimagic field but are not subject to spell resistance, counterspells, or to being dispelled by dispel magic.

The only thing separating Ex and Sp/Su abilities is whether they go away in an antimagic field. You can float in the air with magic (levitate) or without (beholder). You can burn people who touch you with magic (flame shield) or without (remorhaz). If he wants to tag these (Ex), there's nothing wrong with that.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2009-08-13, 10:40 AM
The only thing separating Ex and Sp/Su abilities is whether they go away in an antimagic field. You can float in the air with magic (levitate) or without (beholder). You can burn people who touch you with magic (flame shield) or without (remorhaz). If he wants to tag these (Ex), there's nothing wrong with that.

PairO'Dice, we seem to agree on everything. :smallbiggrin:

He speaks truly. The difference between Ex and Su is entirely up to the creator. Take my latest Prestige Class, for example. I arbitrarily decided that all it's prophetic abilities were extraordinary rather than supernatural, since the flavor I wanted required that ordinary mortal magic be unable to snuff it out. Yes, he's altering Fate, but through something so innate to the universe that Wizards and their ilk have no power over it. Antimagic won't stop it, and neither will Spell Resistance.

The same thing is going on here. This IS D&D. Let's look at some extraordinary abilities:

-A Knight can issue a challenge SO COMPELLING that you CANNOT resist attacking him. Not a "you get a penalty for not attacking him." You literally cannot resist his challenge.
-A Marshal can heal his allies or cause them to almost double their movement speed by the power of his presence alone.
-When trapped in a featureless 10ftx10ft room with an exploding bomb with an explosion radius of 50ft, a Monk or Rogue can dodge well enough to take no damage at all.
-A Half-Vampire (to use something at random) has a biology that can restore it to full health from a near-lethal beating in a matter of minutes. Also, it's a HALF-VAMPIRE.
-An Earth Elemental can sink into the ground and travel underneath it without leaving a trail of any sort.
-A Crusader can strike so well that he heals allies within 30ft of him. As an extraordinary ability. He can also strike so well that his target explodes with divine energy, harming all opponents (not all creatures) within 30ft.
-A Warblade can focus so intently that he can put himself out if he's on fire, stop drowning, reverse that magic turning his blood to acid, or, if you're the sort who likes that sort of thing, theoretically PUT OUT THE SUN.

These feats are, in my mind, perfectly acceptable.

Averagedog
2009-08-13, 10:48 AM
I think the real question we should be asking ourselves is that does he want to surpass the power level of magic or does he want to even it out? Because having an extraordinary ability that allows you to teleport away from being stuck in an anti magic area where your allies are doomed is pretty outrageous. Using the comic book heroes reference, anti magic field and "M"s Disjunction to regular casters and PCs are like Kryptonite to superman. Either create Kryptonite, or make those abilities supernatural, or weaken them to be more reasonable but slightly more powerful than regular TOB maneuvers.

In a DND setting player characters are already extraordinary by their own right. aside from laziness and bad coding, why do the NPC's in games such as baldur's gate or neverwinter nights allow you to waltz into their homes and rob their place without attacking you out of righteous fury? its because your a PC and thus, extraordinary compared to all other members of your character's race. Some PCs get so strong that the gods themselves respect the power of the PC party and some may even feel threatened!

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-08-13, 11:00 AM
PairO'Dice, we seem to agree on everything. :smallbiggrin:

Great minds, and all that. :smallwink:


I think the real question we should be asking ourselves is that does he want to surpass the power level of magic or does he want to even it out? Because having an extraordinary ability that allows you to teleport away from being stuck in an anti magic area where your allies are doomed is pretty outrageous.

Is it really surpassing the level of magic? These feats, which may be taken at level 15 at the earliest, allow you to basically duplicate the effects of animate objects, greater teleport, and metafaculty. Yes, he can get 100 mooks at once instead of 15; yes, he can see through a god's eyes; and...? Each of these costs a feat slot, and as they're not fighter bonus feats you can choose at most two. Your fighter can now teleport and sense things really well. Once per day. At the cost of two feats. Meanwhile, casters can do these things and more, multiple times per day, as part of their class features.

Should they be toned down a bit? Probably, yes; I'd have the last one allow a save, personally. Is martial types teleporting, animating objects, and remote sensing a bad thing? I certainly don't think so.

Averagedog
2009-08-13, 11:01 AM
PairO'Dice, we seem to agree on everything. :smallbiggrin:

He speaks truly. The difference between Ex and Su is entirely up to the creator. Take my latest Prestige Class, for example. I arbitrarily decided that all it's prophetic abilities were extraordinary rather than supernatural, since the flavor I wanted required that ordinary mortal magic be unable to snuff it out. Yes, he's altering Fate, but through something so innate to the universe that Wizards and their ilk have no power over it. Antimagic won't stop it, and neither will Spell Resistance.

The same thing is going on here. This IS D&D. Let's look at some extraordinary abilities:

-A Knight can issue a challenge SO COMPELLING that you CANNOT resist attacking him. Not a "you get a penalty for not attacking him." You literally cannot resist his challenge.
-A Marshal can heal his allies or cause them to almost double their movement speed by the power of his presence alone.
-When trapped in a featureless 10ftx10ft room with an exploding bomb with an explosion radius of 50ft, a Monk or Rogue can dodge well enough to take no damage at all.
-A Half-Vampire (to use something at random) has a biology that can restore it to full health from a near-lethal beating in a matter of minutes. Also, it's a HALF-VAMPIRE.
-An Earth Elemental can sink into the ground and travel underneath it without leaving a trail of any sort.
-A Crusader can strike so well that he heals allies within 30ft of him. As an extraordinary ability. He can also strike so well that his target explodes with divine energy, harming all opponents (not all creatures) within 30ft.
-A Warblade can focus so intently that he can put himself out if he's on fire, stop drowning, reverse that magic turning his blood to acid, or, if you're the sort who likes that sort of thing, theoretically PUT OUT THE SUN.

These feats are, in my mind, perfectly acceptable.

A warblade is a warrior that has so much focus over the functions of his body that he defies the normal limits of a warrior.

A crusader draws his powers from inspiration from his god

an earth elemental is native to the plane of earth and retains the abilities it uses to glide around in its native plain while in the material.

as for the half vampire, need I remind you the ridiculousness of all the half breed characters possible in the world of DND?

evasion is a well known ability for these characters to use their 6th sense to find that one little opening in a billowing fireball to escape from the danger or somehow gain the alacrity to run the distance to avoid a falling block of stone in less than a second...

hitpoints do not necessarily measure how much blood you have in your body. In many dnd games I've been in and DMed over, hitpoints are more of a measure of the PC's morale and willingness to fight and survive.

As for the Knight, there are many applications in the real world where people have the ability to hold one's attention for periods of time. Seriouslyi. It takes skill for magicians to keep your attention on them while they do their tricks or furtively facilitate the next part of their act while hiding it from view of their captivated onlookers.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2009-08-13, 11:09 AM
A warblade is a warrior that has so much focus over the functions of his body that he defies the normal limits of a warrior.

Agreed. He can reverse potent magic turning his blood to acid, paralyze himself through force of will, and now leap high enough to land anywhere in the world. Defying normal limits in a near-magical way...but it's not magic.


A crusader draws his powers from inspiration from his god

Right. A God who's eyes he can now look through to see farther than man normally can. What's the difference?


as for the half vampire, need I remind you the ridiculousness of all the half breed characters possible in the world of DND?

No. Do I need to remind you or the ridiculousness that all characters pull on a daily basis?


evasion is a well known ability for these characters to use their 6th sense to find that one little opening in a billowing fireball to escape from the danger or somehow gain the alacrity to run the distance to avoid a falling block of stone in less than a second...

Right. Dodging a 50x50ft block of stone falling on you in less than a second...leaping across the world...somehow dodging a nuclear explosion from ground zero...these all fit in the same category.

I fail to see how this supports your point that what I stated are extraordinary abilities, and that these feats somehow cannot possibly be extraordinary.

...after all, if you have a high enough Jump check, you can make the leaping teleport ability work without these feats. Hell, with the system as it is, you can MAKE PEOPLE DEVOTED TO YOU BY JUMPING REALLY WELL. Just look up the Jumplomancer.

Averagedog
2009-08-13, 11:19 AM
It is clear to me that I won't move from my position on this topic, and you and your croney won't from your position. I fail to see the reason to argue further on this. After all, it is a homebrew and its not like people are FORCED to go along with your opinions or my opinions. my main concern should be on balance and I'm sure you have already considered it in comparison to when casters gain the ability to do what these feats portend.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2009-08-13, 11:26 AM
It is clear to me that I won't move from my position on this topic, and you and your croney won't from your position.

This, I feel, is probably true. Argument stopped. I hate to appear overly confrontational, so my apologies if that was the case.

On a fairly unrelated note, he's not my croney. We just happen to agree on the matter.


My main concern should be on balance and I'm sure you have already considered it in comparison to when casters gain the ability to do what these feats portend.

Yes. From a balance perspective, the ability for a Martial character to take this sort of action 1/day (or even 3/day, I feel) even within an anti-magic area doesn't come close to the sort of world-altering and encounter-ending actions that spellcasters are capable of. In my opinion, of course. :smallbiggrin:

XiaoTie
2009-08-13, 11:35 AM
Loved the feats!
I'll use them whenever I DM another 3.5

Keep up the awesome work

DragoonWraith
2009-08-13, 12:04 PM
I agree with the OP, Djinn, and Dice. These very easily fit in the category of (Ex), and are excellent, flavorful feats for martial classes at those levels.

If you want your martial types to always remain bound by the laws of physics, play E6. There it actually makes sense. In regular D&D, that's like saying "your power progression is arbitrarily limited to level, oh, 10, ish. Yeah, you keep gaining levels, but because you're a warrior, there's these pesky 'physics' that mean you can't really compete with anyone who magically ignores them on a regular basis".

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-08-13, 12:32 PM
It is clear to me that I won't move from my position on this topic, and you and your croney won't from your position.

On a humorous note: Who are you kidding? I posted first, he's obviously my croney!

On a serious note: Please, don't ever call me that again.


I fail to see the reason to argue further on this. After all, it is a homebrew and its not like people are FORCED to go along with your opinions or my opinions. my main concern should be on balance and I'm sure you have already considered it in comparison to when casters gain the ability to do what these feats portend.

Indeed we have. The impetus for the Ex/Su discussion was determining whether it would be balanced to allow these to work in an antimagic field--it wasn't so much an issue of flavor or "Are these realistic or not," but rather most of the arguments being "That's not actually possible, therefore Su" versus "That doesn't have to be possible, therefore Ex."

If you don't want to discuss this anymore, I'm perfectly willing to agree to disagree on the Ex/Su issue. Are there any other balance-related concerns that haven't been addressed?

HamsterOfTheGod
2009-08-13, 12:59 PM
Are there any other balance-related concerns that haven't been addressed?

1) 2 of the 3 sample feats, True Mind and Horizon Leap, essentially give a scry/teleport combo. Aside from whether they work in an AMF, how does either feat work with protections against scry/teleport such as Mind Blank and Anticipate Teleportation?

2) Each feat takes 1 round. Can these be disrupted as per spell casting?

IMHO, it's easier just to make each feat an Su that copies a spell or an SLA. That way, you already have an in game way to resolve the effect although a new, novel and cool way to produce it.

Milskidasith
2009-08-13, 01:05 PM
Well, besides the thing listed above, True Mind gives no save and can allow you to essentially know everything about the universe by hijacking a totally omniscient dieties senses for 6 seconds with no save and no way to prevent it. And the jump thing can allow you to teleport anywhere without AMFs being a problem. So it's basically the kind of scry and die combo that epic level mages have been dreaming about for all time.

True Mind should work similar to... other divining magic, somehow. I also hate the fluff for it; I never liked the concept of the entire universe being a oneness with every individual, even the gods, being entirely worthless. It should be protected from by Mind Blank (which I think should have a CL check and not just shut down all divining magic, but W/E), and should allow a save.

All these things are essentially magical, and it's hard to figure out how they work (for example, what if, during your jump, you got hit with an AoO for 40 damage? Does it matter? Does your jump fail? Who knows), while as Su abilities there is a basis for that.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-08-13, 01:29 PM
1) 2 of the 3 sample feats, True Mind and Horizon Leap, essentially give a scry/teleport combo. Aside from whether they work in an AMF, how does either feat work with protections against scry/teleport such as Mind Blank and Anticipate Teleportation?

Well, it's much more limited than scry-and-die, since you have to start and end with line of effect to the sky; a subterranean layer is protection enough from that. As I said, though, I'd definitely add some limiters to True Mind, adding a save and making it [Mind-Affecting].


2) Each feat takes 1 round. Can these be disrupted as per spell casting?

Good point. Unfortunately there aren't any clear-cut rules for disrupting maneuvers (combat maneuvers or ToB ones), but I'd say it can be disrupted and functions as an 8th-level spell.


IMHO, it's easier just to make each feat an Su that copies a spell or an SLA. That way, you already have an in game way to resolve the effect although a new, novel and cool way to produce it.

I don't know about that. Again, the whole Ex/Su thing. Also, each one approaches its benefit in a different way (such as the LoE to the sky part of Horizon Leap and the animation of raw stone rather than objects into soldiers). Maybe something like "Functions as spell W, except that it's Ex and has X, Y, and Z changes" could work.

DragoonWraith
2009-08-13, 01:35 PM
Yeah, True Mind I think is OP because of the god thing. I would actually change the line to say that all gods (of Divine Rank > 0) do have inexplicable god-immunity to it, but they recognize the attempt and may voluntarily choose to allow the user to see what they see. That makes it something like Commune; more powerful effect, but a deity is much more likely to say no, plus it's available 6 levels later and requires a feat.

Xefas
2009-08-13, 02:20 PM
Alright, well, it looks like Pairodice and Djinn&Tonic expressed my feelings a lot better than I did while I was gone. :smallredface:

Anyway, I changed True Mind to allow a save, and for Gods to be immune to it.

If it's still too powerful, I'd like to change it in some way that's not making it a Mind-Affecting ability. It's based on the (Buddhist? Maybe?) philosophy that we're all effectively parts of the same organism. The same way that you or I are just masses of tiny living organisms in a humanoid shape, so is the human race an organism made up of smaller parts propagating its existence. Your cells reproduce and die, and you're still the same person. People reproduce and die, and mankind is still the same. And so forth.

Making it Mind-Affecting would make Vermin immune to its effects, which is kind of anti-thematic.

Milskidasith
2009-08-13, 02:22 PM
I still don't like the fluff that everything is one organism. Besides, Mind Blank should prevent you from being seen by something that looks into your mind... if we want to keep up the one organism metaphor, if I put my hand behind my back I can't see it, even if it is still attached to the organism, so if a part of the organism hides itself from the other part, it should be possible.

EDIT: Also, I'd like to point out that, as far as I can see, you don't need line of effect to the sky to end the jumping ability, but you do need it to start it. So you really could teleport anywhere, you just need to be outside to start it. I think you might want to fix that.

DragoonWraith
2009-08-13, 02:25 PM
True Mind is very fluff-dependent, of course. If you don't like the fluff, or like it just fine but it simply is not true in your gameworld, then it doesn't work.

Xefas
2009-08-13, 02:30 PM
I still don't like the fluff that everything is one organism. Besides, Mind Blank should prevent you from being seen by something that looks into your mind... if we want to keep up the one organism metaphor, if I put my hand behind my back I can't see it, even if it is still attached to the organism, so if a part of the organism hides itself from the other part, it should be possible.

If you put your hand behind your back, its true you can't see it, but you're still aware that you have it, and can feel where it is by virtue of it being attached to you.

So, perhaps stuff like Mind Blank could give partial protection? Like, Mind Blank could stop the thought and senses part, but not the location?

Or...the awareness of thoughts and senses is a [Mind-Affecting] thing, but the location isn't? So things like Undead and Vermin are safe from part of it...


EDIT: Also, I'd like to point out that, as far as I can see, you don't need line of effect to the sky to end the jumping ability, but you do need it to start it. So you really could teleport anywhere, you just need to be outside to start it. I think you might want to fix that.

I thought my intention was pretty clear, but if it's confusing, I'll go change the wording.

EDIT: K, I went and specified Line of Effect on the end point of Horizon Leap.

Milskidasith
2009-08-13, 02:39 PM
I know the intent was obvious, but when you don't specify things, the RAW crowd gets to go nuts.

Xefas
2009-08-13, 02:49 PM
I know the intent was obvious, but when you don't specify things, the RAW crowd gets to go nuts.

I would actually find that kind of flattering. Considering I once made a whole discipline that wasn't commented on at all, having my homebrew being argued over would...well...I'd feel a little accomplished. :smallbiggrin:

Zeful
2009-08-13, 03:02 PM
I still don't like the fluff that everything is one organism. Besides, Mind Blank should prevent you from being seen by something that looks into your mind... if we want to keep up the one organism metaphor, if I put my hand behind my back I can't see it, even if it is still attached to the organism, so if a part of the organism hides itself from the other part, it should be possible.

Except my hand can't hide from me. I'm always aware of it's position in relation to every part of my body. I can even tell where my hand is when the entire arm it's attached to is numb and I can't see it. Taking the stance of all living things are one being means that there are no reliable methods of hiding. At all. I'd allow an opposed Charisma check to become undetectable or something pretty unwildly to reflect that. Yes you can hide, but it's unlikely to work twice.

Lysander
2009-08-13, 03:07 PM
I've been thinking about building a class like this for some time. A magical warrior whose supernaturally ability is entirely used towards augmenting their physical attacks. Basically, if someone with the magical talent to become a sorceror instead picks up a sword, their talent is diverted towards physics defying combat.

aje8
2009-08-13, 09:11 PM
After the forceful arguments by Pair'o'Dice and Dijin, I'm fine with them working in an anti-magic feild.

From a balance perspective, the first two seem completley fair even at 3/day. Melee characters getting these abilities is definatley a Good Thing.

The 3rd needs a save OR SOMETHING...... unstoppable extremely powerful divination seems too good no matter how late they get it

HamsterOfTheGod
2009-08-13, 09:41 PM
The difference between Ex/Su is just whether it works in an AMF.

The more important point is that the feats essentially create the equivalent of spells for the meelee characters. This is good. It's good mechanically. It's good flavor. It's good fun.

But the way the feats are done, existing spells are essentially recreated AND made more powerful AND not considered to work within the existing magical framework AND it's not understood how these feats interact in combat.

The True Mind/Horizon Leap combo is a essentially a scry/teleport combo except it works through all existing defenses of scry/teleport. So therefore, although it has some limits, for ex you have to be above ground, that is really a small limitation compared to essentially being non-stoppable.

Why completely re-invent the wheel and create new problems? The point of the new feats is to give the meelee classes abilities comparable to spells so why not just call the abilities spells?

For ex, instead of "True Mind: requirements; use limits; text that is perhaps overpowered and perhaps unclear how to adjudicate," write it as "True Mind: requirements; use limits; character casts Discern Location as an Su or SLA." Instead of "Horizon Leap: requirements; use limits; text that is perhaps overpowered and perhaps unclear how to adjudicate," write it as "Horizon Leap: requirements; use limits; character casts Teleport as an Su or SLA."

Athaniar
2009-08-14, 06:40 AM
Not that anyone cares what I think, but Horizon Leap and True Mind may just be within the borders of the Ex definition. Soldiers of the Earth, however, is magic. You can't animate stone with pure will. Not even in D&D.

Mr.Moron
2009-08-14, 10:02 AM
These are a pretty awesome concept.
However they're utility abilities for feat. Spells can do these things without the resource cost of a feat on the part of the character. These aren't increasing the power ceiling of game or party in any area and so they really should go one step further.

I'd package 3-4 of these abilities together as a single feat thematically tied to a school, and tack on a small passive benefit that works in combat. So you'd perhaps have the "Heaven Bound Tiger" feat, that lets the character use Horizon Leap and 2-3 other abilities of similar scale kind of like a tactical feat.

For all those poo-pooers going "These are magic".

Hogwash! This is the homebrew forum and so presumably people are creating these for their own games. A DM is more than welcome to set the limits of what can be done non-magically in his or her universe/game.

Certainly a game where a powerful warrior can leap across the world in a similar fashion to show a powerful wizard can teleport across it is one going for a certain style. That style is different from the one assumed in the PHB but isn't an inferior one.