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Serpentine
2009-08-13, 03:15 AM
As a player, I find going through the treasure exciting. I like picking out bits and pieces that my character would like to take, just because it's interesting or pretty or whatever. I like figuring out what a fancy magic item could be used for.
As a DM, I enjoy rolling up the treasure. I like putting in colourful art and jewellery pieces, and coming up with reasons (even if my players will never know them) for them to be there at all. I like giving the monsters powerful items that may or may not be usable by party members, but can certainly be used to great effect by the monsters.
But.
My players just don't seem interested in the treasure. Maybe it's just that that point all to often comes up late at night, but it seems like reading out what they find and deciding how to divide it up is just a chore. I'm afraid that I may have overcompensated as a result, giving out too much and too powerful treasure - or, perhaps, the excessive treasure-giving has resulted in the lack of interest. Of course, more than half the time, they don't end up using any of it at all. I know one character has a flash magical staff that would have been useful in several situations, but she's barely touched it. Most of it ends up getting dumped in "party loot", and sold later when a character does want something in particular.
So... What should I do? Should I start, say, halving the amount of treasure I give out, make it a bit more scarce? Should I, as another DM did, have their treasured items destroyed by some magical malevolence? Should I not worry, because it's just that treasure isn't the part of the game that matters to my players, and concentrate more on other elements? What?

arguskos
2009-08-13, 03:30 AM
It may simply be that your players are more interested in plot and whatnot than in shiny loot. If so, I'd suggest giving more simple gold and gems, and basic magical items, so they can buy their own gear, as they seem to want to do.

As a side note, I'd LOOOOVE your games. I'm all about my gear. :smallbiggrin:

Kylarra
2009-08-13, 03:31 AM
Groups are going to handle different aspects of the game differently, as long as the game is flowing and the players are enjoying themselves, I'd just focus on the elements that they're enjoying and not worry about the treasure part.

Nightson
2009-08-13, 03:46 AM
Ask your players.

Serpentine
2009-08-13, 04:04 AM
Ask your players.Pfft, like they know what they want :smalltongue: I think I have, and from memory the response was along the lines of... You know that episode of The Simpsons, when Homer makes Marge steal a whole lot of candy from the candy fair? How Lisa and Bart gorge themselves, then get up the next morning feeling ill? And Homer says "plenty of candy left for breakfast, kids!" and they groan, so Marge suggests that they give the rest to the poor, and they shake their heads in protest and half-heartedly get back to eating it? Kinda like that. Protestations that it's fine and they're happy with the treasure I give, but then next loot-dealing time the response is decidedly lucklustre...

Arguskos: I've got the start of the treasure list for the next encounter. Unfortunately it's a shining example of my over-looting :smallsigh: But come on! We're in the middle of a draconic graveyard! 'course there's gonna be lots of stuff <.< Surprisingly little magic, though...
51,960gp (except in this particular place, silver and gold are swapped in value, so it'll mostly be in silver...).
29 gems
19 art (all rolled up from the Draconomicon. Highlights: cotton wall hanging of a pine forest; obsidian handbell engraved with flames; bracelet of alder-wood beads; oak statuette of a child decorated with gems, and matching yew statuette with gems of a pretty woman; parrot-feather wall-hanging depicting a lilly-covered pond; alligator hide earings)
6 minor magic (4 wondrous items, a +1 scythe made of some unusual material (any suggestions?) and some sort of alcohol I haven't decided on yet)
3 medium magic
1 mundane item.

<.<
Not really helping my case here, am I :smalltongue: Add to that the enemies' equipment... :smallsigh: (though granted, much of that is Small, what with them being kobolds, or Evil, what with them being dracolich-worshipping necromancers) But, in my defence, this is an exceptional case.

arguskos
2009-08-13, 04:15 AM
See, if I was a player, I'd already be asking what types of gems, if I could have a list of the art objects by material, what proof the alcohol was, and what Knowledge checks I'd need to figure out the scythe's materials.

Also, on that note, use hizagkuur. That's a nice obscure material for ya. :smallamused: It can be found in Magic of Faerun.

Also, you haven't managed to get that session going yet? Sad panda. :smallfrown: Still want to hear about, yes I do. :smallbiggrin:

Serpentine
2009-08-13, 04:19 AM
Hrm... Maybe in a couple of years, if we're still around on here, I should run an online game :smallwink:
I think I need to make a visual guide of what all those gems look like :smallsigh: It just lacks colour, when you have no idea what chryssophrase(sp?) is...
Hm. I have copies of a lot of D&D books, but apparently I don't have Magic of Faerun. Races, but not magic... But is it faux-America appropriate?
Oh, and once I've got the treasure all organised, I'll post what I've got, regardless of whether it's played. Last Sunday it turned out that one player was in another state, one was sick and another decided to bow out entirely. This Sunday, well, we've gotta pack and move everything out of this house by next Wednesday, so I dunno yet whether it's gonna happen :sigh:

Proven_Paradox
2009-08-13, 04:31 AM
Are you primarily using items that are in the books? Perhaps you could try coming up with an item from scratch, see if that gets their attention. I've found that tailoring treasure to specific characters helps keep interest as well. For example...

DESCENT PLAYERS KEEP OUT. Lochar, you count.
I'm currently DMing a level 13 gestalt game. We've got a (scary) nymph Warlock//Hexer (a 3.0 PrC that I'm adapting to advance her druid casting), an emerald dragon Psychic Warrior who will start taking some martial class levels on the dragon side next level, a spellscale ghost Sorcerer//Favored Soul of Ao (primarily focused on the sorcerer part, using the favored soul side for buffs and self healing since he needs inflict spells for that), a human Paladin//Favored Soul of Lastai/Heartwarder, and a human Favored Soul of Wee Jas//Crusader/Cleric/Ruby Knight Vindicator (focusing primarily on the crusader side, using Favored Soul for combat buffs and saves). Until recently, we had a pixie Rogue//Swashbuckler/Fighter/Swordsage focused on utilizing attacks of opportunity, but the player has encountered problems that has prevented him from being able to reliably post. A replacement will be joining in soon with a human Psion//Psychic Rogue. We're about to wrap up a really long fight, and afterwards they will be leveling up and stumbling onto a nice little trove of loot.

For the nymph, I have in mind a modification on the Warlock's Scepter (MIC 63). It will be a +2 <something relevant to her> light mace, with the standard charge functionality. Possibly increased to seven charges a day, with spending all seven charges on one blast resulting in +6d6 damage. In addition, holding it will allow her to use a custom eldritch essence that will allow her to add her charisma modifier to blast damage.

The dragon hasn't had much opportunity to bring his breath weapon into play yet. Also, the first threat I threw against them (a gargantuan stone statue) had high hardness, and he gets his damage from having an obscene number of natural attacks and using Psionic Lion's Charge. It can be pretty scary, but a bit of DR really messes him up. I intend to give him a set of claws (which I will think of as taking a weapon slot) that will allow his claw attacks to strike as if adamantine and allow him to use his breath weapon as a swift action once every three rounds. They'll also serve as a cognizance crystal, though I'm not yet set on its capacity. Probably 9; not quite sure yet.

The ghost will be getting an orb which is at its base a ghost touch momento magica 5. A major problem he's been dealing with is having to use Transdimensional metamagic for a lot of his spells; he will be able to channel through this thing to get the same effect by sacrificing a lower level spell slot (which he has in absurd abundance). I'll allow him to retrain his transdimensional spell feat once he figures this function out. I'm pondering having this thing also serve to increase his ranged touch attack rolls a bit.

The paladin has taken a lot of feats to bring her charisma into play for controlling opponents; Goad and Combat Panache for example. She's also dipped in Marshal to get that aura that allows her to add charisma to trip/disarm attempts. She's also got whip proficiency so she can take Heartwarder, but she's not using it right now. She's going to get ahold of a lash that will work on armored opponents normally, and allow her to goad with every attack, and probably add charisma to damage instead of strength. Still figuring out this one.

The crusader is going to get a longsword, probably +1 White Raven <some other nice weapon abilities>. Since he uses Greater Magic Weapon every morning, making it more than +1 is a waste. It'll allow him to expend a rebuke attempt once per encounter to immediately be granted a readied maneuver as a swift action. It seems not quite enough to me thus far, and I'm still trying to figure out what else I want this to give him. Possibly something that keys off Steely Resolve/Furious Counterstrike.

The pixie was going to get something with reach--possibly a chain that conveyed chain proficiency to anyone who held it. It would also give him some sneak attack based abilities, possibly a free ambush feat or something.
Anyway. If you can have your setting allow it, try providing them with some custom items that play to your players' characters' strengths and provide them with some new options. It fosters an idea of "this weapon is MY weapon" if it's something that meshes with them more than the more or less generic items one finds in books.

Serpentine
2009-08-13, 04:42 AM
Well, all characters are at least offered the option of having a Weapon of Legacy upon joining, and I have made a reasonable number of custom (or semi-custom) items. Unfortunately, honestly, I'm fairly unfamiliar with most of the characters in this game. Two of my best-known characters left months ago, and since then players have been coming and going and playing has been sporadic at best. So, yeah, tailoring to the characters has no doubt suffered, though I do try...

Fitz10019
2009-08-13, 04:53 AM
In my old group, we had a Yahoo Group page, and we'd use that forum for OC and IC discussions. Rather than read out treasure lists when everyone is exhausted from the session, just say, "I'll post the treasure to the forum tomorrow." Then people will read it when they are curious about it.

arguskos
2009-08-13, 05:03 AM
Well, all characters are at least offered the option of having a Weapon of Legacy upon joining, and I have made a reasonable number of custom (or semi-custom) items. Unfortunately, honestly, I'm fairly unfamiliar with most of the characters in this game. Two of my best-known characters left months ago, and since then players have been coming and going and playing has been sporadic at best. So, yeah, tailoring to the characters has no doubt suffered, though I do try...
I SERIOUSLY would love to game with you. Legacy weapons upon joining! Custom items! Detailed loots! It's like mana from heaven!! (I would apologize for the fanboyish fawning, but I'm actually amazed someone out there DMs in such a argus-friendly way, it's rare)

In any case, I'm away from my stuff right now, but hizagkuur is a great metal that few people remember. The stats in MoF are fairly bad though, which is a shame, since the 2e stats were great. I can give you those, if you like (got 'em memorized), or I can wait til tomorrow, and send you the MoF stats. Your call.

Kaiyanwang
2009-08-13, 05:12 AM
Just two ideas:

- Reward for Quests: the goblign king hadn't so much treasure, if not wicked, bad taste, not-PC things, or consumables. But the Dwarves will craft something ad hoc for those who killed him

- Craft campaign: the group crafts his own stuff, taking reagents from the environment (i.e., kill things and craft stuff with them).

Both of these ideas need talk with players.


Speaking for my experience, I found that is better bring not too many magic items to players, it help caster resource management issues, and keeps the few ones interesting (even if they can break anyway).

There are exception dued to game re-balance: as an exemple, I found is better, at epic, keep Magic Weapons quite above WBL.

Serpentine
2009-08-13, 06:39 AM
I SERIOUSLY would love to game with you. Legacy weapons upon joining! Custom items! Detailed loots! It's like mana from heaven!! (I would apologize for the fanboyish fawning, but I'm actually amazed someone out there DMs in such a argus-friendly way, it's rare)

In any case, I'm away from my stuff right now, but hizagkuur is a great metal that few people remember. The stats in MoF are fairly bad though, which is a shame, since the 2e stats were great. I can give you those, if you like (got 'em memorized), or I can wait til tomorrow, and send you the MoF stats. Your call.We also change the drawbacks into something more flavourful (for example, my character has to spend some time at/defending her home, another character had to heed any call to rehabilitate Drown, and so on. It needs work).
That'd be good, although metals are extra rare in this part of the game world. I'm thinking maybe some sort of gigantic razor-sharp tooth...

Kaiyanwang: I've actually done both of those :smalltongue: We've had discounts, at least, on buying and upgrading items, and I'm always happy to have people collect bits and pieces to craft with. I need to put together a comprehensive table or list of what bits can be used for what...

I think that, really, I know what I have to do: Take note of the average treasure value for each encounter and actually stick to it (I kinda just roll stuff up randomly, and give the monsters equipment according to what they'd get use out of). But I'm lazy, and I kinda feel like just halving it <.< At least for a while, 'til it's under control again... Thoughts?

edit: Here's the Party Loot (it's been depleted somewhat by a recent spending spree). The stuff that has a name after it is taken by that character (though not all are presently in the game), but I think, from memory, I'm not confident that they've written it down on their sheets, or in full detail (although I do have a policy of "if you don't write it down, it ceases to exist"...).
Party Loot
494pp
30160gp
5262sp
1736c

(1pp, 100sp, 9cp (Nahissis))

Bag of Holding Type I (Astrild)

Sar’Pynestae:
brass mug with tourmaline inlays (200.8 gp)
carved ivory statuette (dragon) (77 gp)
polished electrum mirror, elven visage on the back (99.7 gp)
silver and gold-wrought slave bracelets (303.6 gp) Sar’Pynestae
silver chalice with eye agate gems (157.3 gp)
silver finger sheath with ivory nail (1,406 gp)
small gold statuette, maiden on a unicorn (128.6 gp)
well-wrought bizarre idol (medusa)(486.7 gp)
weapon
dwarven waraxe +1 [Core Rules] (2,330 gp)
wondrous item
quiver of Ehlonna [Core Rules] (1,800 gp)

art
Jewelled fan with feathers (529gp) (Kyoll)
12 inch obsidian statue of warrior with golden armour (6,113gp) (Kariana)
Ancient calendar with turquoise (272gp) (Kyoll)
Brass mug with tourmaline (540gp) (Kariana)
Coronet, worought silver and gold, illithid (1,498gp) (Kyoll)
Golden sword hilt with gems (4,694gp) (Kariana)
Beautifully woven llama wool cloak depicting serpents
Conch-shell carved in the shape of a sea monster inlaid with jade (200gp) (Ellywick)
Silver & shark tooth necklace (40gp)
Gold, silver & yellow corundum shield (5000gp)
Soapstone brooch inlaid with obsidian feather
Engraved mithril anklet
Satin slipper
Bag of marbles (Scout)
Fish carved coral pin


gem
black epidote (6gp) (Kyoll)
ametrine (81gp) (Kariana)
black pearl
zircon (40gp)
fire opal (1000gp)
coral (80gp)
black pearl (400gp)



Stuff
Obsidian dagger
Adamantine dagger (N)

Magic
large pearl on rusting chain – Pearl of Power 5th level (25,000gp)
Amulet of Natural Armour +4 (Vox)
+1 Flaming quarterstaff (Balthier)
Ring of fire resistance (Nahississ)
+1 stone light mace (Kariana?)
+1 blowdart (child)
+2 bracers of armour (child)
Potion Shield of Faith +2 (Kariana)
Wand Bear’s Endurance (Ellywick)
Unguent of Timelessness (Ellywick)
Periapt of Wisdom +2 (Kyoll)
Potion Endure Elements
Stone Salve (Ellywick?)
Spell stone True Strike CL1
Improved Ring of Swimming (Orenda)
+2 chitinous Energy Immunity (1/day) Breastplate (Kariana)
+1 merciful macuahuitl (Kariana)
Scrolls Tongues, Undetectable Alignment, Erase, Speak to Allies
Cloak of Charisma +4 (Balthier)
+1 Unholy Tepoztopilli (like halberd)
Safewing emblem (Kariana)
Anchor feather token
Occulus (Dr. 350 p. 73)
Wand of Divine Insight
+2 light wooden shield
+1 buckler
necklace of fireballs I
Wand Cure Serious Wounds (Balthier)
Bearskin scroll of Bear’s Endurance (Balthier)
Knot scroll of Endure Elements and Summon Monster I (Balthier)
+1 Buckler
+1 light wooden shield of Arrow Catching

oils & unguents

bosssmiley
2009-08-13, 07:16 AM
Reintroduce your players to scarcity.

Take a leaf from old school D&D, which I once saw typified as a game about finding money (http://lotfp.blogspot.com/2009/02/game-about-finding-money.html). Decouple monsters from treasure. Monsters don't leave their treasure in convenient piles / chests / sacks; it has to be actively searched for, either in the dungeon or via wacky treasure maps.

People notice what they feel is missing more than what is actually there. :smallamused:

Serpentine
2009-08-13, 08:34 AM
I do at least try to make sure the treasure makes sense (for example, in this case, the kobold cultists have raided the tombs surrounding their lair and made a pile out of it near the dracolich they're trying to revive. They're actually binding people on it to be slowly devoured by swarms of hoard scarabs... Big Pile O' Loot, but with a purpose!). But yeah, 'snot a bad idea.
Just asked one of my players (my Boy) about it. He said he likes how detailed my treasure is, more than any other DM he's had. He also said that the lack of enthusiasm is probably more because, well, the other players aren't exactly the most enthusiastic of people at the best of times.

edit: Hey, while we're at it: The treasure includes four "rare books". What sort of topics would a dragon care about enough to take a book on it to the grave? Or alternatively, what would a cabal of kobold cultists want to read up on?

Also, among the art bits are a few items that I think could be more significant: a wolf-pelt helm, a rabbit-paw brooch, alligator hide earings, a black bear mask made with real bear skin and a coral chest with a mosaic of dancing mermaids. How could I make these significant, without being immediately apparent as being magic items? Even just a background, even if the party will never find out about it... Circumstance-specific boons and/or curses could be interesting, as could simply flavour phenomena.
One thing that just came to mind was the coral chest smelling and sounding of the sea when you open it.

I've already turned the bracelet of elder-wood beads into a strand of prayer beads <.<

Umael
2009-08-13, 10:58 AM
Scarity of resources is your friend (as mentioned earlier).

I am running an Iron Heroes game, which is a d20 variant that focuses more on might than magic (magic being both dangerous and unpredictable). Because almost all the magic items are things that are essentially cursed, the group has to make due without magic items.

Yet to turn things around, I made the accumulation of treasure a plot point. Every one of the PCs has an interest in getting a little extra cash, and in one case, the PC needs it to survive - his father is in trouble with the equivalent of the Mafia. This PC's father owes something like half a million gold pieces with something hideous like sixteen percent interest.

So all of the PCs have been offered 10,000 gp for the acquistion and return of a lost religious document... or proof that it has been destroyed (because its destruction is what their employers want). One of the employers also promised that they could get the Mafia to drop the interest rate by two percent.

In ADDITION, another group has offered the PCs 50,000 gp for the successful acquisition and safe return of the same document... although only two of the PCs know about this and intend on keeping this information private (and those sharing in the reward two-way instead of five-way).

I don't worry about giving the group a laundry list of treasure because I just make it tailor-made for the plotline. For example, unknown to the players, the Mafia set the interest rate and the loan amount based on its projections of the income of that one PC's father's merchantile empire - said character is barely making ends met. Now I don't know what 18% compound interest of 500,000 is (non-compound comes to 90,000), and I don't care. It "just so happens" that the average profit for the entire merchant empire for the year is about 90,000. Of course, the loan is compound interest, the PC's father is having to cut hours, paying less for the same amount of work, cheat on a few deals, etc. It is a situation that is going to blow up - which means a story to deal with the repercussions - or a story to find the money.

kemmotar
2009-08-13, 11:22 AM
Well...two things from the top of my head...if they don't appreciate treasure then cut them off from it for a while and then give bigger total rewards. If they have to run a few sessions with no loot they will start to miss it. Give them maybe a few healing potions, say that armour is broken from from the fight, monsters don't usually need magic items, they can't find the actual lair...or perhaps they complete the quest but are arrested for something else in the meantime...

They will eventually get some interesting treasure, but by they time they get they'll have missed it. Also, it's not unnatural for adventurers to not be interested in art except as something that can be sold. Very few adventurers have a home to return to, would bother decorating it and would have enough protection there to actuall leave stuff that can be sold there...

Custom magic items could be as simple as bracers that grant the TWF feat or decreases the attack roll penalty...ask the players what they're interested in for the future of their characters...then they will be looking forward to loot..