Modern Western Culture vs Coping

[Yarram]

I've been thinking about stuff again, mainly about western culture and how shallow it seems, and I've had the revelation that modern western culture isn't about learning to confront problems, but rather about learning techniques to put them off.

I was sparked by this when I saw another of those "5 ways to reduce stress." (Not that I'm feeling stressed right now. I was just contemplating it) and while all of the methods presented were valid, (Sleep. Good Diet. Thinking Positively etc. etc.) All of these methods aren't really solutions to the problem that's causing you stress, rather they're just techniques of putting the problem out of our mind and focussing on other things.

I am likely wrong, and I haven't studied anything to do with this, but the best way I've found to cope with stress, is to acknowledge the problem, and try and analyse why I'm worried. If it's something I can't solve, then I ignore it, but usually I find by identifying the exact reason for any problem, I can work out a solution for it aswell.

Vs that, "thinking positively" isn't really a solution. You're just lying to yourself about a problem and trying to convince yourself it's not real to stop yourself from having to feel bad about it. In reality, there are some things that you're supposed to feel bad about. (Otherwise we wouldn't be granted the capacity for negative thought) On the other hand thinking negatively is just plain silly, because you haven't figured out the most likely result to what-ever's bothering you, and even if you have, you're grovelling in self-pity and lying to yourself to make sure that later on you can justify failure rather than actually doing the work required to remove the problem. (whether that be seeking councel, studying for the test, telling the truth about something that you lied about (not that I've done that), etc.)

Really I just want other peoples opinions and/or conformation that I'm right, but disagreement is good too, because it will stop me from believing something that's wrong. But from what I've seen, most Western Culture Ideals are about distracting ourselves rather than thinking about an issue.

[Thanatos 51-50]

I also agree that this whole "Optimisim and Positive thinking is a panacea" idea that somehow brokt out of the asylum and proceeded to run amok is, to put it frank, insane and naive.
I was taught that the best way to eliminate stress was to acknowledge the stress's existence, dissimenate the stress, identify the stressors, analyze the stressors and then nuke them from orbit remove the stressors.

[Last_resort_33]

Often one can't begin to solve a problem causing stress until one does think positively. If you have no faith that your solution to a problem will work, you won't attempt the solution.

Eg. The directions I was given say my destination was down street X. I cannot find street X, therefore I am lost and I will not reach my destination in time... I am stressed.

vs. The directions I was given say my destination was down street X. I cannot find street X. however I know it was supposed to be on my left, so if I continue down any old street on my left then I may be able to find one of the other streets on my route and I may still be able to reach my destination on time. I am less stressed.

[Thanatos 51-50]

I'm sorry - I don't see where the application of happy thoughts(tm) affects your examples below.
Postive thoughts do not garuntee the succesful implementation of a plan, nor do negetive ones block it's implementation at all, unless those thoughts are "This is a stupid, illogical, unworkable plan", which it may very well be, and in which case our thoughts have curved back onto 'right track', if not nessecarily full of flowers and sunshine (tm).

[Last_resort_33]

When you live with someone who is so pessimistic (often depressed actually) that solutions to problems all have their own problems so there's not point trying to fix them (I'm paraphrasing) then you understand that outlook is very important. Additionally a positive outlook gives you more motivation to fix the problem. It doesn't make LOGICAL sense, but people aren't robots.

Positive Thinking

It WORKS Bitches!

[Kalbron]

I thought modern western culture was all about being a doormat for every other culture in the world as payment for our past "sins"?

Which in a sense is also just another form of ignoring things/problems and not being confrontational at all, so you may be onto something there.

[Toastkart]

All of these methods aren't really solutions to the problem that's causing you stress, rather they're just techniques of putting the problem out of our mind and focussing on other things.
They might not be direct solutions, but they may very likely contribute to getting into the right frame of mind so that you can approach what's bothering you and confront it in a way that does lead to a solution.


Vs that, "thinking positively" isn't really a solution. You're just lying to yourself about a problem and trying to convince yourself it's not real to stop yourself from having to feel bad about it. In reality, there are some things that you're supposed to feel bad about. (Otherwise we wouldn't be granted the capacity for negative thought) On the other hand thinking negatively is just plain silly, because you haven't figured out the most likely result to what-ever's bothering you, and even if you have, you're grovelling in self-pity and lying to yourself to make sure that later on you can justify failure rather than actually doing the work required to remove the problem.

I'm a little confused. Thinking negatively is silly and yet thinking positively is lying to yourself? I think you're taking the phrase 'thinking positively' in too literal a sense. Usually it's used by lay people who don't understand the difference between positive and negative thought processes.



But from what I've seen, most Western Culture Ideals are about distracting ourselves rather than thinking about an issue.
I don't disagree, but I'm not sure one has anything to do with the other.

Don't get me wrong, I could just be misunderstanding you, but you're coming across as saying coping skills and mechanisms are bad and thus invalid means of dealing with a situation, yet totally ignoring that they are part of the 'working through it' process as you call it.

Even Freud allowed for the defense mechanisms he established to be used in moderation. It was only when an individual put too much reliance in, say, denial that pathology occurred.

[potatocubed]

The 'happy thoughts' thing is most useful in the case where what's causing you stress is something entirely outside of your control. I agree that actually doing something about the cause of stress is an excellent coping mechanism, but sometimes doing something is not an option.

Example: Swine flu. A lot of people are stressed about this, there really isn't anything they can do about the existence of swine flu, and there's very little they can do to halt its spread or protect themselves. How, then, are they to combat their stress and anxiety?

Answer: By changing the way they think about swine flu.

Of course, this isn't so much 'thinking positively' as it is 'avoiding catastrophic thinking' which should be a familiar phrase to anyone who has to deal with anxiety problems.

Short Version: If you can't control your fate, learn to stop worrying about it.

[Last_resort_33]

*Bing!* One point to Potato^3

[Thanatos 51-50]

When you live with someone who is so pessimistic (often depressed actually) that solutions to problems all have their own problems so there's not point trying to fix them (I'm paraphrasing) then you understand that outlook is very important. Additionally a positive outlook gives you more motivation to fix the problem. It doesn't make LOGICAL sense, but people aren't robots.

Positive Thinking

It WORKS Bitches!

Well, thats's just absurd!
IF: Solution's included problems < Current problems, THEN: impliment solution after utlizing mitagating facotrs OR Impliment colution, the solve new, more minor problem

IF Solution's problems > Current problems, THEN Scrap plan, draft new one.

Pessimisim! It works better!

[Totally Guy]

Well, thats's just absurd!
IF: Solution's included problems < Current problems, THEN: impliment solution after utlizing mitagating facotrs OR Impliment colution, the solve new, more minor problem

IF Solution's problems > Current problems, THEN Scrap plan, draft new one.

Pessimisim! It works better!

I think that when you get stressed thought processes become irrational. Thinking positively is akin to thinking rationally. You just need to avoid that oh, so bad negative thinking.

This isn't optomism vs. pessimism. Both those viewpoints can be used rationally under certain circumstances.

[potatocubed]

Also, I am reminded of this comic (http://machall.com/view.php?date=2006-04-24). :smalltongue:

[Last_resort_33]

Well, thats's just absurd!
IF: Solution's included problems < Current problems, THEN: impliment solution after utlizing mitagating facotrs OR Impliment colution, the solve new, more minor problem

IF Solution's problems > Current problems, THEN Scrap plan, draft new one.

Pessimisim! It works better!

And how you value the greatness of each problem affects your statements dramatically. As does your motivation to think up a new solution.

(note, all values are approximate) Passport office website states that a passport takes up to 30 days to come, we are going away in 15. Rather than the solution be "Cancel the holiday" (badness 100pts: Chances of Success: 100%) the solution is "Phone them up and see if there's anything we can do" (Badness 1 (takes time and effort): Chances of success X%) They inform us that you can get it in 7 days if you turn up at the passport office and pay an additional £30.

The thinking positive is believing that X is large (at least 5%). Thinking negatively is believing X is 0%.

But you don't lose anything by trying! I hear you cry. You wouldn't lose anything by going unicorn hunting in your bedroom, but it's not going to get you to Germany! Positive thinking is about having the motivation to try things.

[Eldan]

I've had to deal with this myself before. Simple example (and yes, partially real):

-Oh god, I forgot my homework at home.

-I should copy it from my neighbour.

-No, then the teacher will see it, and it will be even worse, he will assume I never even did it.

-I should walk up to him and explain that I forgot it before he asks, so I can properly explain.

-But I'm afraid of the teacher, and he will never believe my explanation.

-I should...

And so on, and so on. Usually, about twenty possible solutions came up in my head, and I instantly shot them all down, assuming the outcome would be bad.

The end result in that particular case? The teacher stood up and said "let's check your homework". When he addressed me, I sat there, totally paralyzed, unable to say anything or even look away. When he asked again, I started crying. (I was about ten years old at the time.)

[Totally Guy]

You wouldn't lose anything by going unicorn hunting in your bedroom, but it's not going to get you to Germany!

So that's where I've been going wrong! The unicorns are all in Germany now! I'll bring my blunderbus and catch the train... except that my passport is out of date and I might not get another through in time...

[Last_resort_33]

I've had to deal with this myself before. Simple example (and yes, partially real):

-Oh god, I forgot my homework at home.

-I should copy it from my neighbour.

-No, then the teacher will see it, and it will be even worse, he will assume I never even did it.

-I should walk up to him and explain that I forgot it before he asks, so I can properly explain.

-But I'm afraid of the teacher, and he will never believe my explanation.

-I should...

And so on, and so on. Usually, about twenty possible solutions came up in my head, and I instantly shot them all down, assuming the outcome would be bad.

The end result in that particular case? The teacher stood up and said "let's check your homework". When he addressed me, I sat there, totally paralyzed, unable to say anything or even look away. When he asked again, I started crying. (I was about ten years old at the time.)
You have basically summerised 80% of my husband's thought processes...

[Eldan]

I still have that, in a lighter form, really. It's not entirely paralyzing anymore and I can come up with solutions, but some problems still take a lot of sweat and panicking to be solved.

[bosssmiley]

*eyeroll*

You're confusing marketing fluff ('The Power of Positive Thinking') with the defining unique features of modern Western culture. These are:

Optimism (things will get better in the long term)
Humanism (man is a creature worthy of study in himself)
The Scientific Method ("Oh yeah? Prove it!")
Division of Power (separation of church and state, freedom of conscience, etc.)
Democracy (freedom of association, rule by consent of the governed, etc.)
The Right to Dissent

Western culture and its intellectual achievements created the modern world (despite what revisionist history and cultural relativism might claim). Without it we'd all be living in mud huts, ploughing our fields with animals, covering in fear of the angry invisible sky pixie, and dying of disgusting ailments in our 40s.

Post-Reformation Western thought is a cavalcade of dissent, doubt, objection, iconoclasm and protest. It is the only system of thought that advances by deliberately, wilfully and systematically attacking its own dogmas. It is also the only intellectual tradition that has combined both a rigorous respect for verifiable fact with a profound believe in its own imperfection ~and~ a belief in perfectibility.

Scepticism combined with positive thinking ("I'm right. The orthodoxy is wrong. Here's why...") has been proven to work.

[Thanatos 51-50]

I think that when you get stressed thought processes become irrational. Thinking positively is akin to thinking rationally. You just need to avoid that oh, so bad negative thinking.

This isn't optomism vs. pessimism. Both those viewpoints can be used rationally under certain circumstances.

Positive =/= rational. I would champion it if it were.


-Oh god, I forgot my homework at home.

-I should copy it from my neighbour.

-No, then the teacher will see it, and it will be even worse, he will assume I never even did it.

-I should walk up to him and explain that I forgot it before he asks, so I can properly explain.

-But I'm afraid of the teacher, and he will never believe my explanation.

-I should...

The rest of the sentance should read "Man up, admit my mistake, and take responsability for the results."

[Eldan]

Exactly. But in the state I was in that situation, my only thought was that this would lead to even more negative consequences, therefore I couldn't do it.

I was big on not manning up in elementary school. Teacher gave me a note I had to bring my parents to sign, saying I had done bad stuff? My parents could be mad at me. Logical solution? Hide the note and pretend it never even existed.

[Thufir]

Exactly. But in the state I was in that situation, my only thought was that this would lead to even more negative consequences, therefore I couldn't do it.

I was big on not manning up in elementary school. Teacher gave me a note I had to bring my parents to sign, saying I had done bad stuff? My parents could be mad at me. Logical solution? Hide the note and pretend it never even existed.

I did that once. Eventually I did man up, whereupon I discovered I'd lost the note. :smallredface:

I agree that one should try to remove the causes of stress, rather than just thinking about something else, but it's much more difficult to do something about the cause of your stress while you're still stressed. My response to something making me feel bad is to think about something else until I feel better, then tackle the problem rationally.

[Cristo Meyers]

I did that once. Eventually I did man up, whereupon I discovered I'd lost the note. :smallredface:

I agree that one should try to remove the causes of stress, rather than just thinking about something else, but it's much more difficult to do something about the cause of your stress while you're still stressed. My response to something making me feel bad is to think about something else until I feel better, then tackle the problem rationally.

Which is the way to go about it, but that isn't what many of these methods are going for. They're just about "Think Positive to Remove Stress!" when it doesn't work that way.

Example: I was watching tv show, some talk show (I was broke and waiting for work to start, get off me), where a husband whom had difficulty walking because of a heart problem was complaining that his wife and kids were constantly doing things like leaving the laundry basket on the floor, blocking the doorway, and the like.

The solution proposed? Relax, think about how busy your wife probably is and that these things probably slip her mind, and just let it slide.

Um, no? He has difficulty walking! Stop leaving crap on the floor.

You can "think positively" all you want, but it alone isn't going to solve your problems.

[Eldan]

Of course not, and I doubt anyone is disputing that. I was just responding to the earlier statement that positive thinking never helps. Now, as you said, it can either mean "reduce your anxiety until you can make a rational decision and go through with it" or "as long as you think happy-happy thoughts, nothing bad will happen."

[Mauve Shirt]

You can "think positively" all you want, but it alone isn't going to solve your problems.

It can help you manage your stress and stop panicking enough to solve your problem. If you're the kind of person who panics when confronted with a simple problem (like me) trying to think positively helps calm me down so I can concentrate rationally on solving the problem.
Not everyone thinks like that, so not everyone needs to "think positively". It's not a solution, but it can help.
Also, "think positively" for me doesn't mean think about puppies and rainbows while my problem sits on the side not being solved. It means thinking about ways I can fix the problem and how I'm not entirely screwed. Also thinking about ways I'm not entirely screwed even if I don't fix the problem, but that's not "positive thinking"'s fault, that's my "lazy bum who'll pull by with minimum effort".
If solving the problem involves puppies and rainbows, sweet!

[Helanna]

I would definitely say that thinking positively has its advantages, and I'm a little confused as to why anyone would say that it doesn't make sense. It might not *solve* the problem, but it sure beats the alternative.

Besides, the list you read was on how to reduce stress, not how to eliminate it. I automatically assumed that the list mostly referred to small-time stress that you can't "solve", because it's not really part of an underlying problem. For example, school stresses me out a lot, but my solution, stop going to school, wouldn't work (well, I think it'd work, my teachers seem to disagree :smalltongue:).

But no matter what I do, there is always going to be some level of stress associated with school, even if it's just "I really don't want to get up today". However, this minor stress can be reduced by what the list says - eating well, sleeping well, and even thinking positively. It's a lot easier to get up if I think "Well, maybe something cool will happen today." I don't have any evidence that something good will happen - for all I know, I'll have a terrible day. But I'm a lot more likely to actually get up if I'm optimistic about the day.

So, while if your stress is being caused by a real problem, then yes. Following the advice in the list will likely reduce your stress, in much the same way that trying to empty a bucket with a sieve will likely get one or two drops out. If you've got a problem, you need to solve it analytically. However, for minor stresses, that list will probably work just fine.

[Last_resort_33]

Maybe there should be a distinction between "Stress" and "Problem" Solve the Stress by thinking positively, Prevent FURTHER stress by solving the problem... Often the first step of solving the problem is solving the stress, by thinking positively.

[Cristo Meyers]

It can help you manage your stress and stop panicking enough to solve your problem. If you're the kind of person who panics when confronted with a simple problem (like me) trying to think positively helps calm me down so I can concentrate rationally on solving the problem.

Which, as I pointed out in the post, is the way to go about it and a method I can agree with.

What I was stating was that this method is not what is being peddled and in some cases shoved down our throats. What we're seeing constantly isn't "Think positive, calm down, and approach the problem then" it's "Think positive and your problems will just melt away!"

[Telonius]

Positive =/= rational. I would champion it if it were.

If the goal is "change for the better," what attitude will bring you closest to that goal? A truly pessimistic attitude ("This sucks, and nothing I do will make this better") as well as a truly optimistic attitude ("I can do anything just by believing it hard enough") will get you to the goal only by blind luck. An approach somewhere in the middle ("This might not work, but then again it might, so let's try it and then evaluate") would get you there much faster. That, IMO, is the core of Western rationality.

[HellfireLover]

Yeah. For me, thinking positively is convincing myself to be pro-active, because I'm awfully good at convincing myself that nothing I do could possibly make that much of a difference anyway. Combine that with truly awful time-management skills, and it's a recipe for disaster. Thinking positively about something (even if it's something as trivial as 'I can do this') does actually have concrete benefits.

Disregarding that there is actually a problem (Ignorance is Bliss) is, it goes without saying, a Very Bad Thing. My boss refuses to answer his phone all the time (says he's too busy), with the result that no-one we work with has a single good thing to say about him and trivial problems escalate until crisis-intervention point. All of which could be solved with what amounts to seconds of his time and a bit of positivity.

[SaiphSDC]

the think positively aspect of stress relief is more a way of getting your mind out of a negative self-supporting feedback loop. Depression runs in my family, and one of the big things that crops up is lack of motivation to actually fix the things that stress us.

When you're told to think positively, it doesn't mean (or shouldn't mean) to just dismiss things and say, everything is fine as is, don't worry, just ignore it. What it's supposed to mean is one should think about a situation and say to oneself, "things WILL be okay, that there IS a solution, that it CAN be fixed..." then to figure out how to get there.

Then you have to keep at it, thinking that the solution will work, and to focus on the end goal, not the little bumps that crop up.

Someone who is prone to stress or depression doesn't think this way. Their thoughts are more like: Sure, there's a solution but it isn't that good, and pulling it off isn't worth it. It won't change anything anyway, and things will still suck...no matter what's done it won't change at all, or it'll get worse because nothing works...etc.

Thats negative thinking, and is highly unproductive and can make a situation worse all by itself. And the trick is, if you are the depressed person, this nasty set of thoughts seem like the only natural thoughts to have, it's very hard to see them for what they are, and to realize that you don't have to think that way about a problem.

Basically 'think positively' is to encourage the productive mindset that allows people to actually solve, or at least examine, the problems in their lives. And for the things that they can't affect, say a death in the family, it helps remind them things change, and will get better over time.

Take an example, you're trying to train yourself to do a simple, if involved task. Say solving a rubik's cube. How far do you think you'd get if you only thought to yourself that you'll never solve it, that you can only scramble it more, that even if you get a side done, you'll undo the rest...

Even if you know it can be done it's hard to convince yourself that YOU can do it.

Should you persevere despite these thoughts, you may eventually learn to solve the cube, but how quickly will you learn how? How motivated to practice will you be? How well/quickly can you solve it once you know how? With these sort of self-defeatist thoughts...my guess is it'll take a long time, and you'll do poorly compared to a 'positive thinker'.

[Exeson]

You know, all this culture hate really starts to piss me off. For god's sake, western culture is a friggin' good culture where people are taught self improvement and equality. However, it manages to do this whilst still having an element of survival of the fittest, something that then goes on to encourage self improvement.

A lot of the culture comes to, if you can't hack it you fall by the wayside, what is wrong with that?

As for putting things off what is wrong with that? Delay something until a point when you are more prepared to deal with it. If you can't deal with it it catches up to you and Bam!, off you go, shame, you had a good run but in the end you just couldn't hack it.

[Thanatos 51-50]

If the goal is "change for the better," what attitude will bring you closest to that goal? A truly pessimistic attitude ("This sucks, and nothing I do will make this better") as well as a truly optimistic attitude ("I can do anything just by believing it hard enough") will get you to the goal only by blind luck. An approach somewhere in the middle ("This might not work, but then again it might, so let's try it and then evaluate") would get you there much faster. That, IMO, is the core of Western rationality.

My viewpoint is as follows: "This situation sucks. Nobody else is going to bother to fix it. Which means it's up to me to try and make it better. Let's get to the anlysing."

Come to think of it, in he light of looking at all these pro-'think positivly' arguments, I think my main issue is with the wording.

[Totally Guy]

My viewpoint is as follows: "This situation sucks. Nobody else is going to bother to fix it. Which means it's up to me to try and make it better. Let's get to the anlysing."

That's positive thinking isn't it?

[snoopy13a]

Often, the issue causing the stress cannot be solved. If you are stressed because of your job and quitting is impractical then you simply have to cope. If you are stressed because a close relative or friend is sick and dying then you simply have to cope.

[Erts]

Irrational positive thinking does not help. Neither does positive thinking without doing anything.
I find a very brief meditation on the problem (5 seconds of concentrating and clearing the mind) (people confuse this with positive thinking,) calm yourself, remove the things which don't matter with the problem, go over it again, anaylize it rationally, and then, try to find the best way to do it. If it does not work then, then strive for the solution intill it comes. If that doesn't work, then ask and opinion.
Generally I do the same thing in Thanatos's first post. But if a problem is really bugging me I try this.

[Thanatos 51-50]

That's positive thinking isn't it?

Nope. It's rather negetive, actually.Not a single happy thoughts in that statement.

[Innis Cabal]

Thats not fully correct though. Happy=/=Positive. You are seeking to make something better. Even if your not pleased about it the end result will be positive. Thus its a rather positive stance. Your just manning up and taking matters into your own hands.

On the flip side its neither negative or positive, and just is. But there is no way its "rather negetive" as you say. Not Positive=/=Negative you know. Things can be neutral

[Totally Guy]

There is no way you're going to make me waste my time talking about semantics.

I'm out.

[HellfireLover]

I would view the statement as positive, because it is pro-active. Positive action is not necessarily an action which makes you happy, more an action which helps accomplish a goal.

Positive thinking doesn't have to be "fluffy happy bunnies rainbows unicorns sparklies lalala."

[Quincunx]

There is no way you're going to make me waste my time talking about semantics.

I'm out.

If you haven't exited yet, I'll buy you a shot of hot chocolate for saying that.

[Trog]

As near as I can tell modern western culture has confronted and tackled a ton of the world's problems. If it really were about putting things off I doubt we'd have made as much progress as we have, frankly.

Also stress ≠ problem. A problem might cause stress but it is not the same as stress. Stress is a point of view. Nothing is stressful in and of itself without someone having the perception that it is. An assignment due tomorrow is not stressful in and of itself but a particular student might feel stress because they haven't started on the project yet. While another more laid back student that has yet to begin the project might not feel any stress. It's all a point of view and that's where the positive thinking comes in.

"Thinking positively" is basically encouraging you to calm down and curb your anxiety if it is at a level where it impedes with your productivity. Doing that often helps you de-stress so can get something done because you are not spending time being anxious about it. A small amount anxiety, however, can be helpful to productivity and a good motivator.

[Yarram]

I'm a little confused. Thinking negatively is silly and yet thinking positively is lying to yourself? I think you're taking the phrase 'thinking positively' in too literal a sense. Usually it's used by lay people who don't understand the difference between positive and negative thought processes.

I think the problem we're all having with this debate, is I didn't properly define what I meant by positive thinking. I was referring to the kind where we go, (note: none of these are real-life situations)
"Oh noes! I have a test coming up. I know what to do! I'll think about my pretty pony. Now that I'm thinking about something good, I don't feel worried about the test before."
As opposed to,
"Oh woe is me! I have a test coming up! I'm going to fail I just know it!"

Or the way I think it should be done,
"Oh noes! I have a test coming up. Firstly, why is this important to me? Ok if I fail the test there will be retribution and my pride will be hurt. What exactly do I need to get to pass the test? I need a score of at least <insert number here> to get into the course that I want to do. How much study will it take me to get myself to the point where I'm sure that I'll achieve that level. 2 hours a day for the next two weeks... Hmm... I don't really like that. Do I need to reassess my values? Is that much work worth the effort of passing the test? Not really. If I do less work than that, can I still get an acceptable score? Sure. I'll just cram the day before the test. Considering how well I've done in previous tests from cramming I should pass. Even if I don't pass, I accept responsibility for failure, and it's not as though this particular test will affect my outcome that much. Now I don't feel worried about the test before, because a) the outcome isn't important to me, and b) I feel prepared to do this test as I'll have studied enough course work to reasonably pass." (Note: this was done from a different perspective to my own, so I wouldn't be biased)

The last one is debatably a positive perspective, excepting the fact that the persona in it has already come to terms with failure so it's not worrying him.

Another way this could happen though is if the test was important to the persona's furture. In which case the positive thinker and the negative thinker would be at a disadvantage because they wouldn't have made a conscious decision on whether or not failure is important to them. The negative thinker in particular would fail the test due to not studying. The positive thinker would likely study, but wouldn't be able to come to terms with themselves if they failed.
As the neutral/realistic thinker has thought of all possible outcomes and then acknowledged that even if she fails, it doesn't matter or she has decided that there is no reason to be distressed about failure, because stress is an inhibitor, which will stop her from succeeding/being happy so she chooses not to.

Even Freud allowed for the defense mechanisms he established to be used in moderation. It was only when an individual put too much reliance in, say, denial that pathology occurred.
This is the truth, but my point is that our culture currently does put to much reliance in denial.

The 'happy thoughts' thing is most useful in the case where what's causing you stress is something entirely outside of your control. I agree that actually doing something about the cause of stress is an excellent coping mechanism, but sometimes doing something is not an option.

Example: Swine flu. A lot of people are stressed about this, there really isn't anything they can do about the existence of swine flu, and there's very little they can do to halt its spread or protect themselves. How, then, are they to combat their stress and anxiety?

Answer: By changing the way they think about swine flu.

Of course, this isn't so much 'thinking positively' as it is 'avoiding catastrophic thinking' which should be a familiar phrase to anyone who has to deal with anxiety problems.

Short Version: If you can't control your fate, learn to stop worrying about it.
That's less denial of a problem, and more not fearing a problem because there is no point being afraid of something you can't stop. I totally agree with you when you say 'avoiding catastrophic thinking,' and that this isn't positive thinking, but rather rational acceptance of an unsolvable problem.

This can be related to death too, in that loads of people are afraid of death, so they just don't think about it. On the other hand we're all going to die aren't we? So therefore there's no point being worried about stopping it from happening, as whatever we do, it will happen. Rather than think about how terrible it's going to be, which is 'catastrophic thinking,' contemplation of it should be about how it's something we have to accept because it is inevitable.

[Grey Paladin]

Modern Western culture has nothing to do with its magnificent historical legacy. It has evolved into its own disgusting form and should not be compared to its forefathers.

Overwhelming prosperity tends to do that to the proudest of civilizations, with both Arabia and Rome falling victim to such.

From my experience it centers on conflict avoidance (to the point of minor day-to-day trickery being considered the norm; reminiscent of Japanese culture) and personal interest/happiness being placed above all else.

Western culture does resolves problems, but never directly.

[Trog]

I think the problem we're all having with this debate, is I didn't properly define what I meant by positive thinking. I was referring to the kind where we go, (note: none of these are real-life situations)
"Oh noes! I have a test coming up. I know what to do! I'll think about my pretty pony. Now that I'm thinking about something good, I don't feel worried about the test before."
Er... well I think the problem really is that you are basically describing avoidance, yet labeling it positive thinking. :smallwink:

[snoopy13a]

Modern Western culture has nothing to do with its magnificent historical legacy. It has evolved into its own disgusting form and should not be compared to its forefathers.



Yeah, because we're so much worse than the Athenians who used to slaughter the men and enslave the women and children of cities they captured. Or perhaps the Romans who held games where people killed each other for their entertainment and politicians had their rivals and often their families proscribed and killed.

In recent times, Western culture probably has more respect for equality and human rights than ever before. I'd prefer it if you not compare us to the people of the past. While they do have interesting history and they did create great cultural works those were brutal times and they were brutal peoples.

[nothingclever]

Coping with problems is easy for me. I don't believe in morality or free will and I believe life as a whole is entirely meaningless and everything is subjective.

The idea that western culture is disgusting and inferior to others is silly. Plenty of eastern countries have terrible cultural values and coping mechanisms. Just look for sites about western people that have lived or are currently living in Japan that talk about how disappointed they are with the experience. I'm not saying it's a bad country but it's the best example I've thoroughly read about for what I'm trying to say.

Here's a great example of someone pointing out many problems he sees with a non-western culture:
http://www.thejapanfaq.com/FAQ-Primer.html

[CDR_Doom]

Yarram, the problem is that outlooks are a little like the DnD alignment system. you can be Positive Rational or Positive Irrational, and the same goes for negative outlooks. It seems that for you, a positive or negative outlook already implies a lack of rationality or logic, when the fact is that your thought process(rational or irrational) is overlayed by a separate layer of positive or negative thinking. Personally, I have a sort of Negative Rational outlook, and that works for me.

[Cyrano]

Coping with problems is easy for me. I don't believe in morality or free will and I believe life as a whole is entirely meaningless and everything is subjective.

That's helpful.

[Rutskarn]

*eyeroll*

You're confusing marketing fluff ('The Power of Positive Thinking') with the defining unique features of modern Western culture. These are:

Optimism (things will get better in the long term)
Humanism (man is a creature worthy of study in himself)
The Scientific Method ("Oh yeah? Prove it!")
Division of Power (separation of church and state, freedom of conscience, etc.)
Democracy (freedom of association, rule by consent of the governed, etc.)
The Right to Dissent

Exactly. Despite what the cynics say, there's a bit more to Western Culture than advertisement lingo and celebrity scandals. Believe it or not, the seeds for a positive society are well seeded by our media.

American culture advocates, above anything, the power of the individual to overcome adversity.

I, for one, refuse to apologize for American society. I'm no flag-waving patriot, but I don't hold with the notion that our cultural values are necessarily poison either. Sure, there are some bad lessons to be found, but the same can be said of absolutely any culture that has ever existed.

(I realize I'm referring only to American culture when I refer to Western Culture, but that seems to be what the OP is referring to as well unless I'm missing something.)

[Grey Paladin]

The general message seems to be 'Crush those weaker than you (because you are stronger/richer/more successful and thus are entitled to do so for the sake of your own happiness) and either backstab or lay on your belly and take it from those stronger (because might makes right)'. Conflict is avoided when the opponent is someone who can actually do you harm.

Modern mainstream culture in every country pretty much sucks.

EDIT: nothingclever: The concept of free will is an illusion in a world without inherent cosmic meaning - our decisions are inevitable, but they are our decisions and we have made them. We each decide our own fate, despite the fact that under the same conditions we would always pick the same one. If you realize the world has no inherent meaning it is impossible not to believe in morals, since you admit they are entirely artificial rules constructed by each human to create his own subjective meaning - more so due to their construction being inevitable. Meaning being subjective doesn't makes it any less important - we live for those 'artificial' meanings.

[Rutskarn]

Modern mainstream culture in every country pretty much sucks.

Modern, you say? Are you postulating that it has ever been different?

[Yarram]

To be honest, I'm not proclaiming that Western Culture is inferior to any other, I was just trying to point out that we (I guess stereotypically from what you've all been saying?) have a tendancy to ignore "problems" (I kinda hate this word) rather than deal with them.

[Don Julio Anejo]

To be honest, I'm not proclaiming that Western Culture is inferior to any other, I was just trying to point out that we (I guess stereotypically from what you've all been saying?) have a tendancy to ignore "problems" (I kinda hate this word) rather than deal with them.
Actually no. According to research, the more collectivist a culture is, the more likely it is to force you to suppress your problems and pretend they don't exist. The difference is, however, if someone is actually facing problems, in there you would usually face them as a group (e.g. with your friends, family, colleagues.. anyone who's "in" your group would help you). In Western culture you're expected to face problems alone. Hence the amount of fluff about "positive thinking" - you simply need some outside reinforcement if all your friends simply tell you "quite your job" or "go see a shrink."

[nothingclever]

EDIT: nothingclever: The concept of free will is an illusion in a world without inherent cosmic meaning - our decisions are inevitable, but they are our decisions and we have made them. We each decide our own fate, despite the fact that under the same conditions we would always pick the same one. If you realize the world has no inherent meaning it is impossible not to believe in morals, since you admit they are entirely artificial rules constructed by each human to create his own subjective meaning - more so due to their construction being inevitable. Meaning being subjective doesn't makes it any less important - we live for those 'artificial' meanings.
I mean I don't believe in a true universal morality. You know what I mean right? I believe they exist as artificial rules, sure. Morals being subjective does make them less important to me. Other people that don't think they are subjective will care more about them. Because I believe morals are subjective to a large degree I don't feel a need to uphold any except to avoid offending people and I don't treat whatever approach I take in life as being special. Knowing morals are subjective allows me to better tolerate people that don't share mine.

The general message seems to be 'Crush those weaker than you (because you are stronger/richer/more successful and thus are entitled to do so for the sake of your own happiness) and either backstab or lay on your belly and take it from those stronger (because might makes right)'. Conflict is avoided when the opponent is someone who can actually do you harm.

Modern mainstream culture in every country pretty much sucks.

This stuff doesn't make any sense. How are we told to crush people weaker than us? We're told to compete and try our best to get what we want out of life even if it may hurt others. If people don't compete for things progress will greatly stagnate.

If you have more money than someone else why shouldn't you be allowed to use it to your advantage? If you want to get money from someone or some business and your resources are much smaller why is laying on your belly/working with them/giving them an incentive to help you a bad idea? It's common sense. Should rich people just throw all their money to the masses and expect nothing in return?

How are people told to lay on their bellies? It sounds ridiculous. People are told to become as educated as possible and rise above their peers by simply being more competent. Companies developing better marketing strategies and people looking out primarily for themselves isn't backstabbing people. Tricking people into thinking your product is worth more than it is, is a type of competency you compete to have supremacy in.

What's wrong with people tending to avoid dangerous conflicts? Should we call each other out daily and have trial by combat over trivial gossip instead of putting up with it? Should company employees try to burn down each other's workplaces instead of by competing "indirectly" through advertisements on TV?