When have the forums been absolutely wrong?

[Sgeo]

I'm referring to things such as what seemed to be the common belief that Vaarsuvius wouldn't gain complete and total ultimate arcane power until near the end of the story. What else has the forum been certain about that's been wrong?

[factotum]

Impossible to say because there are always people who don't follow the prevailing view. For instance, there are many people who will argue that V didn't actually get ultimate arcane power and is somehow to going to get even more ultimate arcane power near the end of the strip (I hasten to add I'm not one of them).

[Cracklord]

Whenever someone posts that Belkar will not die.

Or anything about Miko.

David Argal also has an unfortunate track record, which is a shame as he's a pretty smart guy and his arguments make a lot of sense.

[NerfTW]

Ah yes, Belkar. There was a poster during the thieve's guild storyline who was absolutely insistent that there was no more suspense in the strip because we "knew" Belkar was going to die in that battle. I wanted to go back and say "Told you so", but it had dropped off the front page by then.

There really isn't a prevailing view, and people on this forum are distinctly wrong quite often.

[Mc. Lovin']

^^ It was me, go for it :smallbiggrin:

[Optimystik]

The entire board has been caught flat-footed quite a few times (notable occurrences: MitD teleport, planet-in-the-Snarl, and Mama showing up) but I don't think everyone's ever been flat out wrong.

Generally when we see things going a certain way and they don't, it's because the Giant introduces new information or changes the situation drastically. A big example was in this strip, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0613.html) when Belkar should have been SAed to ribbons within rounds; the Giant threw us for a loop by making Bozzok run after Haley instead of staying to help Crystal. Whether he also realized the futility of Belkar's defense, or he had always planned on Bozz to leave Crystal in the lurch, we'll never know for sure.

[Kish]

As other people have already pointed out, the problem with the thread question is that there's never a true forum consensus about anything.

However, lots of people were wrong about Miko becoming a blackguard. Very sure about it they were, too, some of them from her first appearance.

[NerfTW]

^^ It was me, go for it :smallbiggrin:

TOLD YOU SO. :smallbiggrin:

I'm only teasing you, please don't take it personally. :smalltongue:

[Jackson]

Individual posters are wrong all the time. Since the forum doesn't really seem to come to consensus on anything, you can argue that the forum is either always wrong (since there's always some contingent that's wrong), or often right (since there's often at least one voice in the darkness that's right), or too nebulous and self-contradictory a thing to be taken as singular.

In any case, a lot of the people who argue loudest (not meant as a pejorative here) and most persuasively are often wrong, because, however logical they might be, they don't have all the facts. Rich is fairly skilled at giving us enough information to set us going while withholding enough to ensure that we'll be going in the wrong directions, without making the distribution of information seem unnecessarily artificial (at least in my opinion). If he keeps it up, we'll often be wrong.

Right now I'm interested to see, since both I and the others I've read on the forum, whatever their opinion may be, seem quite certain of our opinions, just what story elements are going to come into play regarding the Western Continent and Girard's Gate. Some, most, or all of us will have to be wrong. Should be fun.

[Totally Guy]

I remember when Roy jumped onto the Xykon's dragon and I speculated that Xykon would reclaim his crown. Then it happened and someone told me I'd been owned because it had happened.:smallconfused: I still don't get it.

[Jackson]

Yeah, that doesn't make sense. You should revoke that person's license to internet.

[archon_huskie]

The entire board has been caught flat-footed quite a few times (notable occurrences: MitD teleport, planet-in-the-Snarl, and Mama showing up) but I don't think everyone's ever been flat out wrong.

Generally when we see things going a certain way and they don't, it's because the Giant introduces new information or changes the situation drastically. A big example was in this strip, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0613.html) when Belkar should have been SAed to ribbons within rounds; the Giant threw us for a loop by making Bozzok run after Haley instead of staying to help Crystal. Whether he also realized the futility of Belkar's defense, or he had always planned on Bozz to leave Crystal in the lurch, we'll never know for sure.

I suspect that Rich planned on Bozz going after Haley. He had established that Bozz wanted Haley dead, Bozz was getting emotional, and Bozz acted on his emotions.
Also read this article of Rich's on emotional responces. http://www.giantitp.com/articles/XbsQgS9YYu9g3HZBAGE.html

[Menas]

A big example was in this strip, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0613.html) when Belkar should have been SAed to ribbons within rounds; the Giant threw us for a loop by making Bozzok run after Haley instead of staying to help Crystal. Whether he also realized the futility of Belkar's defense, or he had always planned on Bozz to leave Crystal in the lurch, we'll never know for sure.

Or maybe Belkar was fine either way because he was a seasoned warrior fighting against two glorified pick-pockets =).

[David Argall]

I'm referring to things such as what seemed to be the common belief that Vaarsuvius wouldn't gain complete and total ultimate arcane power until near the end of the story. What else has the forum been certain about that's been wrong?

Well, I am not sure the belief was that common. However, it was clear that once V got superpower, she had to lose it within half an hour or so or the story was over. That does make the final scene the prime choice. Still, there were a number of predictions of earlier power. I made at least one myself.

[Optimystik]

Or maybe Belkar was fine either way because he was a seasoned warrior fighting against two glorified pick-pockets =).

That was Rule of Cool talking rather than any serious consideration of the game mechanics in that situation. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but it does kind of throw a wrench into discussions.

[Querzis]

That was Rule of Cool talking rather than any serious consideration of the game mechanics in that situation. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but it does kind of throw a wrench into discussions.

Meh, Belkar is already a thousand times stronger then a guy of his level with his crappy stats and items should be. The only way to explain Belkar strength is if he absolutely always crit which would make him the luckiest player ever. When Belkar was fighting the low-level rogue it was badass but the fight against Crystal and Bozzok just left a bad taste in my mouth. Belkar doesnt just always roll crit, apparently the people fighting him always roll 1.

Anyway, back to the topic: the forum are at the same times always wrong and always right. For example, with all the theory about the MiTD, sure most people are wrong but one of those theory is bound to be right.

[Mc. Lovin']

TOLD YOU SO. :smallbiggrin:

I'm only teasing you, please don't take it personally. :smalltongue:

Haha that's okay, I woulda hid away like a coward if I thought you meant it!

[Optimystik]

Meh, Belkar is already a thousand times stronger then a guy of his level with his crappy stats and items should be. The only way to explain Belkar strength is if he absolutely always crit which would make him the luckiest player ever. When Belkar was fighting the low-level rogue it was badass but the fight against Crystal and Bozzok just left a bad taste in my mouth. Belkar doesnt just always roll crit, apparently the people fighting him always roll 1.

Agreed, and it's one of the reasons I dislike him so much. It's a testament to his ridiculousness that he's the least realistic character in a strip where the other ones can shoot lightning and fly.

[Random832]

Do we have a list of Belkar's feats? Maybe he just has a bunch of extra-cheesy homebrew stuff.

[Kish]

Do we have a list of Belkar's feats?
http://www.giantitp.com/FAQ.html#faq6a

[sam79]

I'm going to show my ignorance of 3.5 Edition here I'm sure, but from my experience of D+D, it doesn't seem too unrealistic that a highish level dual-wielding ranger can hold his own, for a few rounds and without much difficulty, against two rouges. Especially if there are bonus for barbarian raging and so on... We can surely presume that Belkar has a decent set of physical stats, and that any feats he's got are sure to be geared towards fighting.

And to address the original topic; lots of people have been calling the end of the arc wrongly for the past four or five strips. I suggested (and I wasn't alone) that O-Chul would be benched after his escape from Xykon, and here he is adventuring again. Give the man some R+R, for pity's sake.

[David Demola]

The Crack Pairings thread is just wrong...but I don't think you're looking for that kind of wrong.

[Starscream]

I seem to recall a few people who were absolutely positive that the "Cleric of Loki" that Blind Pete was going to get would hail the return of Hilgya to the strip, 'cause why would The Giant not name him if it wasn't supposed to be a surprise?

I myself was pretty certain that there was a toe bone or something in Roy's boot (it rattled when Belkar shook it) and that this would be the means by which he was resurrected. I certainly wasn't alone in this belief.

[Kish]

I'm going to show my ignorance of 3.5 Edition here I'm sure, but from my experience of D+D, it doesn't seem too unrealistic that a highish level dual-wielding ranger can hold his own, for a few rounds and without much difficulty, against two rouges.
Indeed, I would bet on Belkar against any amount of cosmetics.

(Now watch him die by drowning in rouge...)

[TengYt]

I seem to recall a few people who were absolutely positive that the "Cleric of Loki" that Blind Pete was going to get would hail the return of Hilgya to the strip, 'cause why would The Giant not name him if it wasn't supposed to be a surprise?

I myself was pretty certain that there was a toe bone or something in Roy's boot (it rattled when Belkar shook it) and that this would be the means by which he was resurrected. I certainly wasn't alone in this belief.

Yeah, I for one was convinced the "rattling boot" was foreshadowing of some sort. Seems to have just been a subtle red herring...

[Haven]

The Crack Pairings thread is just wrong...but I don't think you're looking for that kind of wrong.

What could possibly be more right?

Anyway, I seem to recall someone who said "You know what's totally not gonna happen? Hinjo having a wolf named Argent with silver tooth fillings because Shojo spoiled him!"

It was especially odd because they said that around strip 50.

[Unisock]

Meh, Belkar is already a thousand times stronger then a guy of his level with his crappy stats and items should be. The only way to explain Belkar strength is if he absolutely always crit which would make him the luckiest player ever. When Belkar was fighting the low-level rogue it was badass but the fight against Crystal and Bozzok just left a bad taste in my mouth. Belkar doesnt just always roll crit, apparently the people fighting him always roll 1.



This sounds like two of the people in my campaign, the one rolled three one's in a row, and the other almost always criticals. In fact, when he rolled his ability scores, they were so much higher than the rest of the party I asked him if he would re-roll them. He still ended up with higher stats than everyone else. :smalltongue:

Anyway, I don't post here often, but I do lurk around and read the boards when I can. In my opinion, it doesn't really matter who's right and wrong in any argument, either way it's always entertaining to read a reasonable debate.

[Moriato]

I would have bet that the "rattle rattle" in 578 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0578.html) (second to last panel) was going to be Roy's toebone or toenail or something similar.

They had just lost Roy's remains, but Resurrection only needs a small piece of the remains, and Resurrection doesn't say anything about not working if your remains have been used to build a golem, only if you've been turned into an undead creature.

So I thought they were going to despair over the loss of the remains, etc, then find the bone in the boot and it would all work out. It never came into play, though.

[Moriato]

I myself was pretty certain that there was a toe bone or something in Roy's boot (it rattled when Belkar shook it) and that this would be the means by which he was resurrected. I certainly wasn't alone in this belief.

I completely missed that part when I posted. Oh well, seconded, glad to see I wasn't the only one who thought this. Makes me wonder if Rich had that as a backup plan and never wrote it in? :smallwink:

[David Argall]

David Argal also has an unfortunate track record, which is a shame as he's a pretty smart guy and his arguments make a lot of sense.
A little hard to disagree with since I loudly insisted there would not be a split party. [I continue to consider it a lousy idea.]

[Optimystik]

I'm going to show my ignorance of 3.5 Edition here I'm sure, but from my experience of D+D, it doesn't seem too unrealistic that a highish level dual-wielding ranger can hold his own, for a few rounds and without much difficulty, against two rouges. Especially if there are bonus for barbarian raging and so on... We can surely presume that Belkar has a decent set of physical stats, and that any feats he's got are sure to be geared towards fighting.

Raging would LOWER Belkar's AC. It might make him (slightly) more likely to survive the hits he takes, but he would be getting more hits, not less.

Also, Crystal was very close to if not the same level as he is (due to being Haley's level.) Bozzok is almost certainly higher and standing behind him. The whole scene stretched the bounds of credulity to their breaking point and I was glad to see Bozz charge off after Celia even if it was a boneheaded move on his part.

[Haven]

Raging would LOWER Belkar's AC. It might make him (slightly) more likely to survive the hits he takes, but he would be getting more hits, not less.

Also, Crystal was very close to if not the same level as he is (due to being Haley's level.) Bozzok is almost certainly higher and standing behind him. The whole scene stretched the bounds of credulity to their breaking point and I was glad to see Bozz charge off after Celia even if it was a boneheaded move on his part.

Yeah, but they would have a lower BAB, while he has fairly high DEX, probably magic armor, that shield, and it seemed like all he was doing was total defense until Bozzok left. I can see it.

[Optimystik]

Yeah, but they would have a lower BAB, while he has fairly high DEX, probably magic armor, that shield, and it seemed like all he was doing was total defense until Bozzok left. I can see it.

He was flanked, they likely had a fortune in magic items themselves, and Bozzok is definitely multiclassed with something with full BAB. Belkar's build defies all logic, the sooner we accept that the better off we'll be (until he dies.)

[Haven]

He was flanked, they likely had a fortune in magic items themselves, and Bozzok is definitely multiclassed with something with full BAB. Belkar's build defies all logic, the sooner we accept that the better off we'll be (until he dies.)

Given that he was still four rogue levels higher than Haley, he probably didn't have many levels in whatever it was. Also, Belkar is small.

I don't think all the bonuses they had could have reliably beaten all the defenses he had--it makes sense, especially if that shield was well enchanted.

[archon_huskie]

Here's something the forum rgets wrong a lot. Whenever someone tries to force OOTS to follow DnD rules perfectly. It doesn't.
Plot > Funny > 3.5 Rules

[JonestheSpy]

Here's something the forum rgets wrong a lot. Whenever someone tries to force OOTS to follow DnD rules perfectly. It doesn't.
Plot > Funny > 3.5 Rules

Something else the forum tends to forget is that "Realistic" is on equal footing with 3.5 rules.

It's really not that hard to imagine that a highly experienced warrior could hold off two people who's area of expertise is sneaking around and opening locks, even with flanking rules and whatnot.

Likewise, when you're clobbered by a huge chunk of masonry being wielded by a superstrong undead abomination (and let me tell you I hate it when that happens) it's quite likely you're going to be stunned and helpless for a bit, as V was when smacked down by Xykon not too long ago. And yet, there's absolutely nothing in the game rules stating that massive bludgeoning damage can cause stunning, staggering, and similar effects that one would expect in real life.

[Droodle]

He was flanked, they likely had a fortune in magic items themselves, and Bozzok is definitely multiclassed with something with full BAB. Belkar's build defies all logic, the sooner we accept that the better off we'll be (until he dies.)Nah. He just transitioned into 4th edition before the rest of the order. Simpler explanations work best, no?

[factotum]

He was flanked, they likely had a fortune in magic items themselves, and Bozzok is definitely multiclassed with something with full BAB.

What makes you say that? We know Bozzok had to be four Rogue levels higher than Haley to be able to Sneak Attack her, so if he had levels in some OTHER class as well he'd pretty much be epic, which seems unlikely on the face of it. When attacking Belkar he clearly missed him with his Sneak Attack, which suggests a relatively low BAB.

[Optimystik]

What makes you say that? We know Bozzok had to be four Rogue levels higher than Haley to be able to Sneak Attack her, so if he had levels in some OTHER class as well he'd pretty much be epic, which seems unlikely on the face of it. When attacking Belkar he clearly missed him with his Sneak Attack, which suggests a relatively low BAB.

His weapon of choice is a bastard sword, which isn't on the rogue proficiency list. Now I suppose he could have just grabbed the Martial Weapons feat, but he also doesn't seem like the purely sneaky-type thief either, so I'm assuming at least a fighter dip.

[Haven]

His weapon of choice is a bastard sword, which isn't on the rogue proficiency list. Now I suppose he could have just grabbed the Martial Weapons feat, but he also doesn't seem like the purely sneaky-type thief either, so I'm assuming at least a fighter dip.

Unless I'm missing something, bastard sword isn't on anything's proficiency list, so he would have had to take Exotic Weapon Proficiency in it either way.

A dip or two of fighter seems likely, but since he was still four whole rogue levels higher than Haley it seems unlikely he had enough fighter levels to really make a really significant difference BAB-wise.

[factotum]

Unless I'm missing something, bastard sword isn't on anything's proficiency list, so he would have had to take Exotic Weapon Proficiency in it either way.


Quoted for truth--bastard sword is an Exotic Weapon according to the SRD, so no matter what class selection Bozzok chose he would have to burn a feat to be able to use one. He'd also suffer an XP penalty if he multiclassed to fighter (half-orc preferred class is barbarian). I doubt he has one of those, considering how high a level he's managed to achieve pretty much entirely from killing thieves who leave the Guild.

[T-O-E]

A better question would be "When have the forum been right?".

[Vargtass]

The forum (and I mean more or less consensus here) was wrong on Miko's lord being Soon, up until Shojo was revealed... This was based on similarity of shoes, if I remember correctly.

[kpenguin]

Aside from one guy who guessed right that Xykon was really flying on zombie-dragon, most of the forum believed that one of the three decoys was Xykon until Haley explained it all.

[Morgan Wick]

David Argal also has an unfortunate track record, which is a shame as he's a pretty smart guy and his arguments make a lot of sense.

David Argall has a terrible track record even BEFORE his theories are tested and he tends to come off a little arrogant about them too. He may be a "pretty smart guy", but he's not trope-smart.


The forum (and I mean more or less consensus here) was wrong on Miko's lord being Soon, up until Shojo was revealed... This was based on similarity of shoes, if I remember correctly.

Well, they were close.


Aside from one guy who guessed right that Xykon was really flying on zombie-dragon, most of the forum believed that one of the three decoys was Xykon until Haley explained it all.

There was a pretty obvious red herring - the Xykon near Redcloak was acting most Xykon-like of the bunch.

[Dread Cthulhu]

I'm shocked that no one's mentioned comic 666 yet. That was slated to be massive and demonic and earth-shattering and we got a calm reconciliation between Roy and Haley. I mean, nothing special happened on 100 and 600 either, but at least those were acknowledged.

[Querzis]

I'm shocked that no one's mentioned comic 666 yet. That was slated to be massive and demonic and earth-shattering and we got a calm reconciliation between Roy and Haley. I mean, nothing special happened on 100 and 600 either, but at least those were acknowledged.

Actually, most people thought there woudnt be anything special on comic 666 as far as I can tell and the other people just hoped there would be something. After all, its not like the number 666 means anything in D&D.

[hamishspence]

It used to be the Number of Layers of the Abyss, but aside from that, doesn't really come into it.

[Timberboar]

Quoted for truth--bastard sword is an Exotic Weapon according to the SRD, so no matter what class selection Bozzok chose he would have to burn a feat to be able to use one.

Hmm. I could swear I read somewhere that the bastard sword was considered a martial weapon if used with two hands, and exotic if you wanted to use it one-handed.

Oh, right. In the SRD.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#swordBastard

[Haven]

Hmm. I could swear I read somewhere that the bastard sword was considered a martial weapon if used with two hands, and exotic if you wanted to use it one-handed.

Oh, right. In the SRD.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#swordBastard

I did not know that.

But anyway, Bozzok was using it with one hand (at least before he dropped the shield).

[Spiky]

Actually, most people thought there woudnt be anything special on comic 666 as far as I can tell and the other people just hoped there would be something. After all, its not like the number 666 means anything in D&D.

It's not like the number 666 means anything anywhere except in the minds of people who don't understand the Bible's mention of it. Oh wait, that's almost everyone. Nevermind...

[Haggis]

My personal favorite was the posion arrow that was fired in 435.

There was this big poll about who it would end up hitting (I can't remember who was in the lead, but V, miko, and roy were all up there) And then we get 436 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0436.html).

Giant says he doesn't use the forums for ideas, but I firmly believe this is the exception to the rule.

[Hurkyl]

Giant says he doesn't use the forums for ideas, but I firmly believe this is the exception to the rule.
Ignoring the fact it made for a transition from Belkar to V -- you don't find it plausible that it's just that easy to play the forumites like a fiddle?

[Raging Gene Ray]

My personal favorite was the posion arrow that was fired in 435.

Giant says he doesn't use the forums for ideas, but I firmly believe this is the exception to the rule.

I thought that was just to transition and to remind us all of what was going on. I think Rich doesn't read the forums too much other than to post "New comic is up," and maybe see if any of the early posters catch any mistakes.

Only if there is something that would catch is eye (like a thread titled "Rich is WRONG!!!!") does he start saying things.


Ignoring the fact it made for a transition from Belkar to V -- you don't find it plausible that it's just that easy to play the forumites like a fiddle?

QFT. Rich probably didn't know or care about any stray arrow predictions at the time and accidentally got everyone worked up.

Even the scene with Tsukiko almost but not quite turning Miko into an undead warrior...you don't have to read the forums to know that some people would be expecting a classic "Fallen paladin dies, gets raised as a Blackguard" plot twist...actually, that's so obvious, it's not even that much of a twist.

[MReav]

To answer the original post, I don't think anyone predicted Belkar killing the Oracle out of spite.

[Querzis]

To answer the original post, I don't think anyone predicted Belkar killing the Oracle out of spite.

Yes they did. Lots of people thought he would kill the Oracle on their second visit.

What we did not expect is the village of «lickmyorangeballshalfling».

[Kish]

classic "Fallen paladin dies, gets raised as a Blackguard"
*cough* I think you're thinking of Death Knights there, not blackguards. People certainly predicted Miko's becoming a (living) blackguard from the moment she was revealed as a paladin without any concerns for any aspect of her character except that she was a paladin, for reasons which I only vaguely understand. Some also predicted her becoming a death knight or an undead blackguard. There's no intersection between being undead and being a blackguard.

[Jackel]

To answer the original post, I don't think anyone predicted Belkar killing the Oracle out of spite.

I don't think anybody expected otherwise actually. He wouldn't have needed an intervention if he wasn't a stab-happy lunatic.

It's like being surprised when Chucky commits murder. NOT doing said action would (and did) get a 'wait, what?' moment from the other characters.


People certainly predicted Miko's becoming a (living) blackguard from the moment she was revealed as a paladin without any concerns for any aspect of her character except that she was a paladin, for reasons which I only vaguely understand.

Because people have grown too used to paladins being either Pure, Darksided, or Redeemed? That's the only reason I can think of.