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View Full Version : Core Balanced? A DM/Player Headache...



Scarlet Tropix
2009-08-13, 06:51 AM
Hello. New here on the forums, first thread. Consider this my warm, hug filled hello to you all. I also have a problem which I'd like advice on.

I DM 3.5 consistently for a small group of friends who I've known out of school for a few years now. The group is normally quite enjoyable, despite their murderous, psychotic tendancies, and for the most part what I say as DM flies. I try to repay this kindness by being fairly open to whatever madness it is they want to do, be it plot or combat related.

Recently, I purchased a vast majority of the non-core sourcebooks, from obvious to totally obscure. We had been running on core-only up until that point, and the expansion has been great for me both in and out of game. Two of my three players love the new stuff, but one of my players (let's call him Gabe) has been having minor meltdown every time I use non-core.

Now, Gabe is decent player normally, enough that I usually consider him the most level headed of the group, and enough that he is usually the guy we pick as DM when I don't feel like leading. So I was very surprised at his outburst, and took him aside to figure out the problem.

His complaint was, as you may have guessed, that he thought the new books were hideously unbalanced. I admitted that this was probably true, but it likely couldn't get more broken then core. His response?

"That's just it, I like core because it's perfectly balanced."

I'm sure you can guess how things went from there. Despite all logical and numerical evidence to the contrary, I was unable to convince him that Core wasn't already broken as is.

Among other things he thinks the Fighter is capable of matching and defeating the Wizard at any level 50% of the time, that the Monk isn't hindered by stat spread, that the Druid is actually fair, etc.

In addition to all that stroke-inducing nonsense, he has told me that he won't be playing my games anymore until I go back to just core, which no one else in my group is willing to do.

So to sum up, I'd like advice on just what to do. This is essentially the only squabble the group has ever had, and I don't want Gabe to leave the group. I'm capable of respecting his opinion and feelings on the matter, but his position is fairly invalidated from the start. We meet again this weekend, and I really need to smooth this over by then.

Help me out, forum?

PinkysBrain
2009-08-13, 06:57 AM
Sounds to me like he is volunteering to DM.

Let him DM a pre-made module for something with parties above 6 and go for a non holds barred caster party (and a rogue/wizard/trickster) should teach him a thing or 2.

mikej
2009-08-13, 07:00 AM
Kind of being selfish isn't he? The whole core only or I'm leaving part. First off, what class is he playing, maybe he just nervous that his character willn't perform well compared to the other non-core using characters.

Scarlet Tropix
2009-08-13, 07:01 AM
*Shakes your hand* Thanks for taking the time to reply.

Actually, normally I'd agree with you if it wasn't for the fact that he really hates DMing. Whenever I feel like taking a break we really have to beg him into it. It's not that he's bad at it per se, I just don't think he really likes it.

EDIT:

*Shakes your hand also*

He's done a bunch over the years, but his favorite is Rogue or Commando (A homebrew class I found. Has no trouble with those, even the broken ones.) Right now he's playing as a straight up Fighter, which he continues to maintain will not be overshadowed by our Wizard or Cleric.

kamikasei
2009-08-13, 07:03 AM
Heh, I agree with PinkysBrain.

This isn't really about balance. This is about throwing a tantrum even though everyone else is having lots of fun. I won't speculate as to why he's so uncomfortable with non-core material, but if you've been continuing to play since the switch and the game is still fun and challenging, what is there to complain about?

A player should not be issuing ultimatums like that. If he has so little trust in your judgment as a DM, then it's only proper that he shouldn't be a player at your table. That sound harsh, but that's what it comes down to: rephrased, simply point out that the group were having fun before the switch, have continued to do so after the switch, and his opinion of the balance of non-core material is really irrelevant so long as he has the basic trust any player should have in his DM to run a fair and fun game.

Tempest Fennac
2009-08-13, 07:03 AM
My approach would be to not worry about what he thinks (admittedly, I like players to have a lot of freedom of choice when playing, so I tend to allow most things, barring save-or-die effects, some of the more breakable spells, Half creatures*, Core Druids and Divine Metamagic). My advice would be to demonstrate that non-core things aren't more broken by suggesting he sticks around for at least a few games with everything being allowed.

*This is a flavour thing rather then a balance issue.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-08-13, 07:05 AM
Run a PVP. He plays a party consisting of a Fighter, Monk, and Ranger, you play a party consisting of a Druid, Wizard, and Cleric. Meet on neutral ground and see who wins...

Scarlet Tropix
2009-08-13, 07:07 AM
*Shakes everyone's hand retroactively*

I hear what you're saying, Kamikasei. The only reason I don't kick him (As I am kind of a peace-Nazi when it comes right down to it...) is that we have never had so much as an inkling of a problem before, even during character death or far worse.

Also, there aren't a lot of people in the area I could replace him with.
So yeah, actually if you guys have any advice on finding players, that'd be great too.

EDIT:
I lol'ed, Pharaoh.

mistformsquirrl
2009-08-13, 07:09 AM
I gotta agree with the others as well.

This does not strike me at all as a 'balance' concern. He has another reason - be it being personally uncomfortable with change (maybe he already knows all the rules and doesn't feel right if there are new ones that could come up that he has no idea about?) - or maybe he just likes the attention.

Worst comes to worse, if you and the other two are having fun, let him go. It's not fair to you or the other two to be tied down solely because of one person's hangups.

Especially since if at any point balance DOES become a real concern, you can always just houserule it as the DM; he should know that and trust you enough to take care of it if it becomes an issue, imo.

*edit*

To add in to the above - one option would be to simply allow the players to each have a Cohort for free. Probably not ideal; but it'd keep the party size up if that's a concern.

As for kicking him - if he's threatening to go, you don't have to do it >.< just let him leave on his own - or he'll change his mind and stick around. Either way, there's not a lot you really CAN do about it unless you completely cater to him <'x'> which... well yeah, that just doesn't work in my experience.

Scarlet Tropix
2009-08-13, 07:10 AM
Sounds to me like he is volunteering to DM.

Let him DM a pre-made module for something with parties above 6 and go for a non holds barred caster party (and a rogue/wizard/trickster) should teach him a thing or 2.

I think I might try that actually.
I knew it was a good idea to download all those Modules.
Course if I'm not subtle about it, that makes it worse.

kamikasei
2009-08-13, 07:10 AM
Run a PVP. He plays a party consisting of a Fighter, Monk, and Ranger, you play a party consisting of a Druid, Wizard, and Cleric. Meet on neutral ground and see who winds...

I really wouldn't bother. This isn't about who's right or wrong in an abstract argument of balance. If they were having a simple disagreement on that issue that they wanted settled, it might work.

Rather, this is about a player seeing a DM introduce something he doesn't like, freaking out about it despite the fact that everyone else at the table is fine with (and enjoying) it, and demanding that the game be changed to suit him and him alone on threat of boycott. Now, for one player who is the only one seriously bothered by a game element to ask it be removed is not automatically unreasonable; a player may be uncomfortable in principle or due to their own past with various kinds of evil act, or may have an actual phobia regarding certain creatures or scenarios. But throwing a fit over the issue of non-core material just doesn't cut it; it's not something that should be indulged.


I hear what you're saying, Kamikasei. The only reason I don't kick him (As I am kind of a peace-Nazi when it comes right down to it...) is that we have never had so much as an inkling of a problem before, even during character death or far worse.

I'm not really advocating throwing him out, but I am advocating standing firm and refusing to let an ultimatum sway you. If someone wants to escalate the situation like that, let them eat the consequences.

Rather than kicking him, just ask him to give you the benefit of the doubt and trust that you'll continue to be a competent DM who runs a good game (you are, right? :smallwink:). But make it clear that "change to suit me or else" is not an approach you're willing to accomodate.

Also, what mistformsquirrl said.

Scarlet Tropix
2009-08-13, 07:15 AM
(maybe he already knows all the rules and doesn't feel right if there are new ones that could come up that he has no idea about?)

Hmm. I never thought about that, but now that I think about it he is a bit of a rules lawyer, and he does get irritated when he gets tripped up by something he doesn't know about, like the time I stole his Cleric's Holy Symbol he didn't know he had...

Maybe I should just sit down and go over the new rules with him?
Everyone else was content to just grab and skim, but maybe I haven't been considerate of his mentality...

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-08-13, 07:15 AM
Also, there aren't a lot of people in the area I could replace him with.

A butter squash with a face drawn on it in sharpie would serve well in the role, I imagine.

mikej
2009-08-13, 07:17 AM
Run a PVP. He plays a party consisting of a Fighter, Monk, and Ranger, you play a party consisting of a Druid, Wizard, and Cleric. Meet on neutral ground and see who winds...

That will do what? Just to show him that it's bad either way, core or non-core. He may just leave right there. My DM thinks the same way as the OP's friend/player. He didn't want to touch a D&D book for like a year after I showed him the truth. Although, to be a fly on the wall if that method you'd suggested was used.

Have you tried to meet him half way? First tell him that pulling that sort of ultimatum like attitude is not being respectfull towards you, the others. Maybe sort out what he dislikes, put some limitation of what is allowed outside of core, show him some usefull ( and fun ) non-core methods to advance his Fighter.

AstralFire
2009-08-13, 07:17 AM
Here's what you tell him:


We are all friends here. We mutually respect one another and the game. I believe this additional material is balanced from how I have examined it, but that's tangential. More importantly, it is workable. Balance of these additional materials does not concern me because ultimately, I have faith that none of the players will intentionally abuse the mechanics in such a way that will destroy the enjoyment of the game for us. And the overwhelming majority of mechanical flaws in this material do require intentional abuse of the rules. I have confidence in myself and <mechanically competent players> to pick up whatever slack remains.

We're having fun. Let's keep having fun.

Don't argue him on the grounds of balance. You are right, he is wrong, and it sounds like his ego is not going to let him accept that in a direct confrontation. Head him off at the pass.

And welcome to the Playground.


http://www.librarian.net/talks/wrls/wrls20.key/welcome-mat.jpg

Scarlet Tropix
2009-08-13, 07:17 AM
A butter squash with a face drawn on it in sharpie would serve well in the role, I imagine.

Ouch. That's harsh. XD

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-08-13, 07:18 AM
That will do what? Just to show him that it's bad either way, core or non-core. He may just leave right there.

He clearly shouldn't be playing DnD with people then. His loss would not be a problem.

Random832
2009-08-13, 07:18 AM
Sounds to me like he is volunteering to DM.

Let him DM a pre-made module for something with parties above 6 and go for a non holds barred caster party (and a rogue/wizard/trickster) should teach him a thing or 2.

Make sure you play a Druid. Who turns into dinosaurs and whatever else you can find in the MM. If he tries to ban something, just say: "Is this you admitting that core isn't balanced? :smallcool:"

Scarlet Tropix
2009-08-13, 07:19 AM
Ohmygosh it's AstralFire.

I love your work!
*Fangirl moment*

Anyway, thank you all for your help. I think I have a pretty good idea of how to handle this now.

PinkysBrain
2009-08-13, 07:19 AM
Well if you can't argue with him and you can't show him the only thing left to do is emotional manipulation ... beg him to play the first couple of sessions.

AstralFire
2009-08-13, 07:20 AM
Ohmygosh it's AstralFire.

I love your work!

:smalleek: That's something you don't hear every day.

Well um. I love your username! Coronas are awesome! :smallcool: And hope my advice helps.

I used to be named 'CoronaFire', but everyone went 'like the beer'? and I gave up.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-08-13, 07:22 AM
Ohmygosh, it's AstralFire!


Well if you can't argue with him and you can't show him the only thing left to do is emotional manipulation ... beg him to play the first couple of sessions

No guilt trips? No blackmail? No breaking up of his relationships?

Emotional manipulation fail.

Scarlet Tropix
2009-08-13, 07:23 AM
I think what I'm going to do is go over the new stuff with him personally, maybe teach him some ways to improve the base fighter. If that doesn't work, then yeah, I guess I'm going to have to let him go.

Thanks for the help, guys.

Edit:
I'm not gonna mess with his relationships or nothing like that. Dude's two feet bigger than me. XD

If anyone's still around though, all four of us DO agree that we need another player. Any advice on picking one up?

mikej
2009-08-13, 07:28 AM
He clearly shouldn't be playing DnD with people then. His loss would not be a problem.

touche

I personally wouldn't stand for such a immature ultimatum in a game that involves cooperation and mutual enjoyment. If the OP is okay with his departure, then send out his balanced core Fighter in style with a core Wizard. If not, back to the drawing board, work out some mutual agreement.

Have you tried showed him the Warblade from Tome of Battle. He may have a unsuspected accident in his pants upon reading what it can do.

Edit: Internet, local gaming shops and college/university are great places to find new players or groups.

AstralFire
2009-08-13, 07:29 AM
If anyone's still around though, all four of us DO agree that we need another player. Any advice on picking one up?

If you live in a populated or suburban area, could always try our very own Finding Players (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=51) board. Beyond that, there's the standard 'hit up your Friendly Local Gaming Store' advice. I mostly play digitally, so I can't help too much on that front. >.<

mistformsquirrl
2009-08-13, 07:29 AM
Hmm. I never thought about that, but now that I think about it he is a bit of a rules lawyer, and he does get irritated when he gets tripped up by something he doesn't know about, like the time I stole his Cleric's Holy Symbol he didn't know he had...

Maybe I should just sit down and go over the new rules with him?
Everyone else was content to just grab and skim, but maybe I haven't been considerate of his mentality...

This would make a lot of sense to me honestly.

I *used* to be very much like this myself. I pretty much had to know *every* rule from *every* source we'd get. Someone bought a new book, I'd be the first to borrow it and read it until it was as memorized as I could make it.

So assuming this is the perspective he's taking... and from your statement my guess seems likely, the best bet is definitely to sit down and see if you can go over the rules with him.

I'd also suggest, politely, to him that it's OK to not know absolutely everything. It's fine to sometimes have to dig out the books, or take someone else's word for it.

And, if necessary, remind him of the ultimate rule - even above "The DM is always Right": It's a game - it's meant for fun. If you play a rule wrong by mistake, so what?

The above is pretty much how I stopped being so obsessive myself >.< That and it finally dawned on me that I could never memorize every RPG rulebook I'd need to use. It's just not feasible. It may help him if someone reminds him why he's gaming.

May work, may not, but it can't hurt to try at least <^_^>

Scarlet Tropix
2009-08-13, 07:29 AM
touche

I personally wouldn't stand for such a immature ultimatum in a game that involves cooperation and mutual enjoyment. If the OP is okay with his departure, then send out his balanced core Fighter out in style with a core Wizard. If not, back to the drawing board, work out some mutual agreement.

Have you tried showed him the Warblade from Tome of Battle. He may have a unsuspected accident in his pants upon reading what it can do.

Actually, strangely enough I did. I don't remember his reaction though.
(And I prefer the Swordsage myself.)

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-08-13, 07:30 AM
I'm not gonna mess with his relationships or nothing like that. Dude's two feet bigger than me. XD
Just means that you have easier access to his groin.

Tempest Fennac
2009-08-13, 07:31 AM
Do you or your D&D buddies have friends or family members who could be talked into joining your group? That could be a source of new players.

Scarlet Tropix
2009-08-13, 07:32 AM
If you live in a populated or suburban area, could always try our very own Finding Players (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=51) board. Beyond that, there's the standard 'hit up your Friendly Local Gaming Store' advice. I mostly play digitally, so I can't help too much on that front. >.<

Thanks for that. And sorry if I startled you earlier, it's just that I've been using your stuff for a long time.

To Tempest-
Two of us have no siblings, my family is less than interested. We've been working on friends, but most of them live too far away to be regulars.

Tiki Snakes
2009-08-13, 07:36 AM
Oh my Gosh, it IS Astralfire...and with some damn good advice, too. Go with it, but if he turns you down? Just say something like, "sorry you feel that way, but you're welcome if you change your mind. Bye now!" and carry on.

If there really is that little going on in the area that finding one more player is a difficulty, chances are he's expecting you to blink first, and hasn't really thought through what happens if you call his bluff.

Do keep us posted, though, Nascent. For we here are nosey little oiks, and must have follow-ups! ^_^
Welcome also.

PId6
2009-08-13, 07:43 AM
Just means that you have easier access to his groin.
That just sounded so wrong...

Scarlet Tropix
2009-08-13, 07:44 AM
Oh my Gosh, it IS Astralfire...

I really hope that doesn't become a meme now...

Regardless, I'll keep you all informed.

kamikasei
2009-08-13, 07:51 AM
Hmm. I never thought about that, but now that I think about it he is a bit of a rules lawyer, and he does get irritated when he gets tripped up by something he doesn't know about, like the time I stole his Cleric's Holy Symbol he didn't know he had...

Maybe I should just sit down and go over the new rules with him?
Everyone else was content to just grab and skim, but maybe I haven't been considerate of his mentality...


I'd also suggest, politely, to him that it's OK to not know absolutely everything. It's fine to sometimes have to dig out the books, or take someone else's word for it.

This is important. He needs to realize that he's not supposed to know every rule in the game. Sure, he should be familiar with how his own abilities work so he can predict the results of his actions. It's reasonable to want to understand the rules behind his allies' actions. But he should not be screaming "HAX!" every time a monster he's not seen before does something unexpected.

Irreverent Fool
2009-08-13, 07:55 AM
You say he wants to play core-only but is ok with homebrewed material?

Reproduce all of your non-core splatbooks in a word processor and staple them together. Tell him you've been working on some new homebrew stuff.


This is important. He needs to realize that he's not supposed to know every rule in the game. Sure, he should be familiar with how his own abilities work so he can predict the results of his actions. It's reasonable to want to understand the rules behind his allies' actions. But he should not be screaming "HAX!" every time a monster he's not seen before does something unexpected.

Paranoia XP is a good solution to this mentality.

In more helpful news my group had a similar problem to yours, OP, but in the opposite direction. One of our players had volunteered to run a new D&D campaign for us. She decided to limit us to core only because she wasn't familiar with all the rules. She said she would probably allow non-core stuff after she was more comfortable but on a case-by-case basis. One of our players showed up to character creation and threw an enormous tantrum, saying "if we're playing core only then I'm not playing" in such a way that it was clear that he believed this would change her mind. The rest of the group agreed that a core-only game was fine and that he was overreacting.

He is no longer in our groups and even in the 'anything goes' games, we find that most things go more smoothly.

If you can convince him to just try it out, perhaps he will see that if everyone has equal access to the outside material, there are no additional 'balance' issues. If you can't, let him walk.

obnoxious
sig

Scarlet Tropix
2009-08-13, 07:56 AM
This is important. He needs to realize that he's not supposed to know every rule in the game. Sure, he should be familiar with how his own abilities work so he can predict the results of his actions. It's reasonable to want to understand the rules behind his allies' actions. But he should not be screaming "HAX!" every time a monster he's not seen before does something unexpected.

He's actually a bit more polite than that. I think I've given you all the impression that he's a volcano, but he's rather shy.

Regardless, I understand what you're saying.

Telonius
2009-08-13, 07:57 AM
As I'm seeing it, you have two problems, factual and social. Factually, he's incorrect. That can be fixed, easily, if he wants to learn something new. The bigger problem is social. Right now, he's in a place where he's not open to learning new information. He's probably a bit defensive, and feeling like his ideas aren't being taken into account. It's up to you whether or not you want to take the trouble to bring him along for the ride.

Whatever you do, don't formulate it as an "I'm right, you're wrong" argument. As the other posters have mentioned, it's really not about the balance issues. Tell him you're open to banning things that really are overpowered. Ask him to come up with a list of ten things that he thinks are overpowered, with a short (maybe sentence-long) explanation of why. Chances are, there will be several that actually are (Nightsticks, Divine Metamagic, Radiant Servant of Pelor...), or several other things that nobody was planning on using anyway. Agree with him, and ban the item, if it falls into either one of those categories. That will help him rebuild some trust in the group relationship. It will also have the benefit of getting him to think about why things are overpowered.

Then, when you've gotten him in the habit of searching for overpowered things, take that list and go through Core to find things that are overpowered for similar reasons as the ones he gave. Tell him something like, "You're right, these are overpowered for the reasons you gave. That's why I also think that these Core items are overpowered. But we've been getting along just fine, even with this imperfect system. If everybody works together and doesn't do ridiculous things, it'll work out fine. If it doesn't, please trust that I'll step in and reduce the power of some things so that everybody's having fun."

Tempest Fennac
2009-08-13, 08:06 AM
Irreverent, have you mentioned that story before? It sounds familiar to one I read about ages ago where the player who objected was angry because they hadn't been told it would be core-only until he got there (I could understand why the guy was annoyed if he wasn't told before hand, but pitching a fit is unjustified if he was told before he got there for the game).

Irreverent Fool
2009-08-13, 08:12 AM
Irreverent, have you mentioned that story before? It sounds familiar to one I read about ages ago where the player who objected was angry because they hadn't been told it would be core-only until he got there (I could understand why the guy was annoyed if he wasn't told before hand, but pitching a fit is unjustified if he was told before he got there for the game).

Not mine. We'd decided on core-only about two weeks prior and made sure everyone knew. He just hadn't bothered to pay attention on the multiple occasions it had been mentioned. I still don't think that would be grounds for storming out in a fit among a group of friends.

Which brings me to another issue. If this person is a friend outside of the D&D game, take extra care in managing this issue. While I do not think the ultimatum should be acquiesced to, a compromise could probably be reached if the subject has a reasonable bone in his body.

It turns out that the person in my tale did not in fact have any reasonable bones and this event was the beginning of a series of events that led to a dismissal of a years-long friendship between said person and all of the people involved in the game.

D&D is serious business.

obnoxious
sig

The_If
2009-08-13, 08:12 AM
How thoroughly do you check your players' choices before gaming? Have you disallowed anything from Core before?

I don't know how, but it seems like you need to convince him you personally won't allow unbalance.

Scarlet Tropix
2009-08-13, 08:20 AM
How thoroughly do you check your players' choices before gaming? Have you disallowed anything from Core before?

I don't know how, but it seems like you need to convince him you personally won't allow unbalance.

I look over their sheets after creation. They're not munchkins by any means, and I rarely ever actively ban something.

I do cut out most of the spells that bring people back from the dead, but that's campaign flavor more than anything else.

Keep in mind that Gabe considers Core balanced already.

Cyclocone
2009-08-13, 08:22 AM
If he isn't the lest bit excited about splat books, he's obviously not a munchkin (or atleast not a very munchkin-y munchkin), and thus should be less prone to childish temper tantrums like actually walking away just because everything can't happen according to his wishes.

Sounds like you just need to talk things throug with him. Tell him that you can see where he's comming from, but that the game is about everyone having fun, and that he could stand to be more lenient, unless he wants to ruin it for everyone else etc.

tl;dr: emotional blackmail, like other people said.:smallsmile:

mikej
2009-08-13, 08:38 AM
Keep in mind that Gabe considers Core balanced already.

Everytime someone says core is balanced, an Monk gets his wings.

Myshlaevsky
2009-08-13, 08:39 AM
Everytime someone says core is balanced, an Monk gets his wings.

So Core becomes more balanced then?

subject42
2009-08-13, 08:40 AM
Right now he's playing as a straight up Fighter, which he continues to maintain will not be overshadowed by our Wizard or Cleric.

If you want to show some of the imbalance of core without removing him, have the party fight some spellcasters here and there. Once he's been completely neutralized a few times he might change his mind.

What level is your party? At low levels, spending a combat on the floor due to the proper application of touch of fatigue and grease could be a bit frustrating. At higher levels Forcecage would remove him from the fight entirely.

When he inevitably complains about not participating, mention that you're simply using mechanics available in core. If her persists, hand him the Tome of Battle.

mistformsquirrl
2009-08-13, 08:43 AM
So Core becomes more balanced then?

Hmm.. methinks we need to start using this as some kind of mantra then...

Core is balanced...
Core is balanced...
Core is balanced...
Core is balanced...
Core is balanced...
Core is balanced...

Etc...

Eventually we'll actually get there! >.>

valadil
2009-08-13, 08:45 AM
I agree with the people who are saying that the core balance argument isn't what this is about. I think you should talk to Gabe some more and find out why he's opposed to other books. Maybe you could convince him that they're balanced too. I mean, if WotC created this perfectly balanced 3.5 core they should be capable of expanding it without unbalancing things. Adding in the Complete books (possibly even one at a time if Gabe is reluctant) shouldn't hurt the delicate balance. Incorporating a few new books at a time should be a reasonable compromise.

Scarlet Tropix
2009-08-13, 08:52 AM
Hmm.. methinks we need to start using this as some kind of mantra then...

Core is balanced...
Core is balanced...
Core is balanced...
Core is balanced...
Core is balanced...
Core is balanced...

Etc...

Eventually we'll actually get there! >.>

But if we do that then Gabe's argument will be legitimate. XD

mistformsquirrl
2009-08-13, 08:53 AM
<'x'> You've got many a happy year before we ever hit that point; I'm sure by then you can convince him to cope with the new stuff <,<b

Scarlet Tropix
2009-08-13, 08:57 AM
Indeed.

...On an unrelated note, I think I'm going to like it here.

Kurald Galain
2009-08-13, 08:58 AM
If you want to show some of the imbalance of core without removing him, have the party fight some spellcasters here and there. Once he's been completely neutralized a few times he might change his mind.

If these forums are any indication, then mere facts are going to be completely useless in proving the other guy wrong.

I'd go for the angle that "we are having fun, trust the DM".

Also, this (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Scrub) may be worth reading.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-08-13, 09:00 AM
Indeed.

...On an unrelated note, I think I'm going to like it here.

You are unwelcome and unloved!

mikej
2009-08-13, 09:02 AM
Indeed.

...On an unrelated note, I think I'm going to like it here.

I thought so too. It lacks the stupidity factor of Pojo.biz ( another gaming forum I used to venture too ), although wish that I could transfer my post count from there to here.

Well, I have nothing else usefull to add to your situation. Best of luck here, Hope you can work out everything with Gabe

mistformsquirrl
2009-08-13, 09:03 AM
You are unwelcome and unloved!

<^_^> *pours gasoline on Pharaoh's Fist.* *Ignites*

<^.^> We're one big happy pyromaniacal family. Marshmellows anyone?

Eldariel
2009-08-13, 09:08 AM
<^_^> *pours gasoline on Pharaoh's Fist.* *Ignites*

<^.^> We're one big happy pyromaniacal family. Marshmellows anyone?

Luckily he's only the Fist. You left rest of the Pharaoh untouched. Also, I'd like to point out that you're gonna have sacred marshmellows if they are roasted on Pharaoh's Sacred Fire.


Also, yeah, much has already been said. The whole "go over the rules with him"-idea is good, and you could offer for him to follow a session if he isn't convinced yet. He'd notice it's still the same game and the same dynamics, just with more ways to build you character. He'd also probably want to play.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-08-13, 09:08 AM
<^_^> *pours gasoline on Pharaoh's Fist.* *Ignites*

<^.^> We're one big happy pyromaniacal family. Marshmellows anyone?

I see that you have decided to follow my advice to solve problems with "Fire, and lots of it."

Flickerdart
2009-08-13, 09:24 AM
Welcome to the boards. I'm glad you like it here.

Ok, so. Here is what you need to do. You have three people, functionally (you and two players). The last guy doesn't matter for now.

Three people can have a minimum (and hopefully a maximum) of three significant others. It is fairly easy to get said significant others interested in your hobby. You just got three new players. Enjoy.

The last guy is going to be more difficult. if you do find another player who also happens to be a girl, set them up with each other and following the same principles outlined here, you have a grand total of seven players. If you're lucky, a while down the road some of those couples are going to be having kids, but that's going to take too long a time and I wouldn't account for it in calculations just yet. You could also probably increase this number through strategic break-ups and having the people each bring along someone else, but that's advanced stuff and also kind of a horrible thing to do.

Jack Zander
2009-08-13, 09:33 AM
Pfft... AstraFire's a troll in this forum anyway...

kjones
2009-08-13, 09:34 AM
Flickerdart: Are you seriously suggesting breeding additional players?

Come to think of it, this is a compelling reason to have children.

Telonius
2009-08-13, 09:57 AM
Everytime someone says core is balanced, an Monk gets his wings.

Hey, lack of flight is part of what ... ::strangle::

Nothing to see here, folks.

Doc Roc
2009-08-13, 10:31 AM
He clearly shouldn't be playing DnD with people then. His loss would not be a problem.

I'm going to disagree. This may sound hard to believe, but in my earlier years, I believed that the core of 3.5 was well-balanced. The fact of the matter is that the best thing you can do here is to have a gentle conversation with him about the fact that 3.5 isn't PvP balanced and direct comparisons of classes along single lines isn't a good way to articulate issues of balance. The problem instead lies with the nature of their roles and the lack of orthogonality that fighter demonstrates compared to casters.

I understand his perspective painfully well. The non-core world is freaking huge, and quite scary at first glance. Particularly when you get into alternative casting systems. Dude just wants to really grok what's going on, and now he's out of his comfort zone. He doesn't mean to behave explosively, but he's trying to remove himself from a situation where he feels like he doesn't belong anymore. I'd sit down and talk with him about things really carefully, and really politely.

Doc Roc
2009-08-13, 10:32 AM
Pfft... AstraFire's a troll in this forum anyway...

lawl WHUT? I disagree quite strongly. Presuming sarcasm and raising shields to full! Remodulating.

Jack Zander
2009-08-13, 10:34 AM
lawl WHUT? I disagree quite strongly. Presuming sarcasm and raising shields to full! Remodulating.

*Hint* Look under AstralFire's name.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-08-13, 10:35 AM
I'm going to disagree. This may sound hard to believe, but in my earlier years, I believed that the core of 3.5 was well-balanced.

I was talking about if he threw a temper tantrum and left.

Indon
2009-08-13, 10:53 AM
Everytime someone says core is balanced, an Monk gets his wings.

This class feature, while certainly potent, does not appear to be RAW.

I might suggest running a campaign built around one extra-core sourcebook - a Tome of <Battle/Magic/Whatever> group, for instance, or a group of people all drawing from a single sourcebook like Complete Divine or somesuch.

Since you're mandating everyone in the party to use the material from that sourcebook, its' balance with other characters is irrelevant, and you can show him the advantage that sourcebooks ultimately bring: Novel and fun ideas and mechanics.

I particularly recommend Incarnum. An all-Incarnum group is surprisingly versatile and most definitely not overpowered in any way. It's distinct from standard spellcasting in both flavor and mechanic, and it doesn't have any genre baggage.

Flickerdart
2009-08-13, 11:16 AM
You could at least probably convince him that the XPH and UA are core (since they're in the SRD), and possibly even make the argument for PHBII and the Monster Manuals.

Doc Roc
2009-08-13, 11:19 AM
Not MM2, though ;)

quick_comment
2009-08-13, 11:38 AM
Core is almost balanced if you play it the way WoTC envisions it - that is, blaster mages, healing clerics and druids using wild shape for scouting.

They just never dreamed that people would prefer glitterdust to fireball, or enervation to lightning bolt, or that druids would be wild shaping into fleshrakers or that clerics would go into melee.

Kurald Galain
2009-08-13, 11:48 AM
They just never dreamed that people would prefer glitterdust to fireball, or enervation to lightning bolt, or that druids would be wild shaping into fleshrakers or that clerics would go into melee.

Fleshrakers aren't core :smalltongue:

Kylarra
2009-08-13, 11:51 AM
This class feature, while certainly potent, does not appear to be RAW.


Flight of Balance (Su)
Whenever a creature says or otherwise communicates (through writing, thought projection or some other media) the phrase, "core is balanced", all monks within a 1 mile radius suddenly manifest large white feathered wings granting them a flight speed of 60' with good maneuverability permanently.

:smallconfused:

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-08-13, 11:53 AM
Technically we're typing, not speaking...

Kylarra
2009-08-13, 11:55 AM
Technically we're typing, not speaking...I have no idea what you're talking about. :smallamused:

Indon
2009-08-13, 12:18 PM
Well, it's a rule, and it's written.

Okay! Clearly, core is balanced after all.

*watches a nearby monk fly away*

Eldariel
2009-08-13, 12:26 PM
You know, this gives the whole "Repeat something long enough and it becomes reality"-saying a whole new meaning.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-08-13, 12:26 PM
I might suggest running a campaign built around one extra-core sourcebook - a Tome of <Battle/Magic/Whatever> group, for instance, or a group of people all drawing from a single sourcebook like Complete Divine or somesuch.

This, definitely. When I got to college last year, the two people in my new group who'd already played before had always adamantly banned psionics for various reasons (with one of them admitting "It's because I'm not familiar with it" and the other thinking the same but not admitting it). I ran a 3-session campaign where everyone had at least 3 levels in some psionic class and all magic was banned.

They loved it, and in my next 1-20 campaign the most ardent player (pun intended) decided, of his own free will, to play a psion/monk taking the Talashtora route. After that, the two of them seriously considered using stuff from the Tomes and Incarnum, and they've been much more open to the various subsystems since.

Scarlet Tropix
2009-08-13, 12:34 PM
I now have the distinct urge to create a city of winged monks. They will constantly regenerate everytime the fighter claims he could best a wizard.

mikej
2009-08-13, 12:44 PM
Originally posted by quick_comment
Core is almost balanced if you play it the way WoTC envisions it - that is, blaster mages, healing clerics and druids using wild shape for scouting.


If WoTC envisioned it to be that way, than they'd never should have wrote down stuff like Glitterdust or Enervation. Or released books with stuff like the Incantatrix or Planar Shepherd without some reasonable play testing. Also I'm sure they envisioned Clerics going into melee. Look at the marvelous example of core [un]balance Divine Power.

Also, Kylarra you made my little joke into something awesome. thanks :smallsmile:

Indon
2009-08-13, 12:55 PM
If WoTC envisioned it to be that way, than they'd never should have wrote down stuff like Glitterdust or Enervation.

Wizards (and TSR) put down spells in the player's handbook that they did not intend for players to actually use, at least on a regular basis - the most ready example being Quest/Geas, a spell that exists pretty clearly for plot hook reasons.

Years of spell development simply slowly broadened the plot hook spells until they constituted a large number of the total spells.

Kurald Galain
2009-08-13, 01:09 PM
If WoTC envisioned it to be that way, than they'd never should have wrote down stuff like Glitterdust or Enervation.

Don't forget that, at least early in the 3E cycle, WOTC felt obliged to reprint pretty much every core spell from Second Edition. 2E had a rather different notion of balance (or indeed, of the idea that balance is even required) than later editions.

Frosty
2009-08-13, 01:10 PM
I now have the distinct urge to create a city of winged monks. They will constantly regenerate everytime the fighter claims he could best a wizard.

*waves* Welcome to the GiTP forums :) You sound like you'll love it here and will fit right in!

Please update us on the situation when you can.

Random832
2009-08-13, 01:14 PM
Fleshrakers aren't core :smalltongue:

Dire Bears are. So are Megaraptors. And of course arguably (there is no clear RAW one way or the other on this) you can advance these to the limit of your own druid level in hit dice.

mikej
2009-08-13, 01:16 PM
Don't forget that, at least early in the 3E cycle, WOTC felt obliged to reprint pretty much every core spell from Second Edition. 2E had a rather different notion of balance (or indeed, of the idea that balance is even required) than later editions.

I'm only familiar with 3.5 ...

I'm not against it though. I actually think casting Glitterdust is fun because a good portion of people I play with believe that mages are just "blasters."

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-08-13, 01:23 PM
I'm only familiar with 3.5 ...

You should probably read up on 1e or 2e if you can, then; the majority of WotC's screwups in 3e stem from trying to simultaneously keep as much as possible of 2e and radically change the core of the game, and if you know what came before fixing some of these problems (or at least compensating for them) is much easier if they come up in your game.

Thrawn183
2009-08-13, 04:02 PM
Do you have access to Elder Evils?

Run through two of them. This is inherently less confrontational than some sort of arena match. I mean, you'll be having fun fighting a terrible evil rather than each other.

The first scenario: run through with straight classed non-core stuff. I'm talking duskblades, hexblades, Wu-jen, scouts, ninjas... whatever.

The second scenario: run through with straight classed druids, clerics, sorcerors, wizards...whatever you want.

This will give you empirical evidence that applies to your own group. While I think you are right and your friend is wrong, different groups do play differently. This should settle things quite nicely.

tiercel
2009-08-13, 07:01 PM
Yeah, OK, Core isn't perfect. But I would argue that it is mostly balanced for, oh, level 1-8, and okay for 9-12, and thereafter increasingly degenerates into the "casters win" scenario that some people seem to think applies FOR ALL TIME OMGZORS.

Yes, there is the occasional low to mid level genuine brokenation (polymorph, I'm looking at you) and some arguably overpowered things that don't necessarily break the game but that you may want to give a good think about (e.g. Natural Spell, web, rope trick, etc.), but for the most part the game can run.

With non-Core supplements, you run into several new problems. One is that it is *arguable* that there is a greater proportion of unbalanced material in non-Core material (not that all non-Core is broken; a lot of it is fine). Another is that even if you find non-Core material to have the same proportion of problematic/broken material as Core, the more material you add to the campaign, the more *total* problematic/broken material there is to choose from. Thirdly, the cost of adding non-Core abilities to a nonspellcaster is much higher than for a spellcaster. The latter has only so many feats/PrCs he can take, whereas the former can often just add new spells to a spellbook, or, in the case of many divine casters, just wake up one morning with a new panoply of additional choices for free.

There may also be the more meta consideration of inclusiveness; if the DM and other players have 1001 Supplements of Doom and Player X doesn't, then Player X may feel a bit left out, and that feeling could result in paranoia/backlash.

I don't know if a solution is something as simple as "well why don't you take a chance to read some of this stuff and then try it out in a game" or if there are deeper issues here.

Doc Roc
2009-08-13, 07:15 PM
I would argue that you are terribly wrong, and I would ask you to produce MATH! to validate your argument, sufficient math to contra-indicate the bulk of evidence against your point in spirit and in letter. I'm not saying that casters win. Oh no, I'm saying that core isn't balanced. That means a hell of a lot more than just Castttaaaaaaaarz. It means that a monk has terrible trouble against a barbarian in a fair fight, that a druid's animal companion can smack down unoptimized fighters and offers better action economy, that many feats are unconscionably bad in light of other options, that many weapons are out-and-out unusable, that two-handers are almost always better than two-weapon fighting..




Core. Is. Not. Balanced.
Wizards produced a beautiful, fun, interesting game. It suffers when it comes to balance, but that's where you, the GM, nominally come in. It's a really rough job, and if you do it well, guess what? You get saddled with the right to keep doing it.

tiercel
2009-08-13, 08:56 PM
It means that a monk has terrible trouble against a barbarian in a fair fight

Define "fair" -- are we talking about, monk starts adjacent to a barbarian in a 5'x10' room and both combatants proceed to full-attack each other? I could pull out NPC stats for both classes from the DMG and crunch numbers but given that the barbarian is *supposed* to be the pure-damage-delivery melee class, I would *hope* that the monk would be disadvantaged.

OTOH, monks eventually get better speed than the barbarian, stealth skills, most likely Stunning Fist, Disarm or Trip for free, not to mention strong saves (which don't help against the barbarian much, granted, but are still a signifcant feature).

The fight that's "fair" for the barbarian isn't going to be so fair for the monk, and vice versa. It's a bit apples and oranges.


that a druid's animal companion can smack down unoptimized fighters and offers better action economy,

Especially at 1st level this is at least too close to true, I'll grant you. You'll note that I haven't defended Core as perfect or completely balanced; my contention is that most of the problems that do exist before the higher levels are individual problems rather than vast systemic your-game-is-destroyed-before-it-begins failures.


that many feats are unconscionably bad in light of other options,

Bad feats mean that those particular feats are unbalanced (in the negative sense), but they don't unbalance the *system*. Yeah, sure, fine, +skills feats and +saves feats should be probably pumped up, or just ignored -- unless of course, you buy into the philosophy that "lousy feats are there to make PrC prerequisites an actual cost, rather than a free power boost."


that many weapons are out-and-out unusable

Wait, what? Are all reach weapons "unusable" other than the Almighty Holy Bow Down Before Thee Spiked Chain of Cheese? Certainly some weapons are mathematically optimized for average damage delivered/round, but their less-damage-optimized brethren get some other mechanic instead (set against charge, tripping weapon, etc). It matters a bit what you want your weapon to do.

If you are going to talk about silliness in equipment design, *armor* is a much better target, honestly. There's not much reason after 1st level for most PCs to wind up wearing anything other than a chain shirt (possibly mithral) or full plate armor. (At some point, a mithral breastplate might become marginally worthwhile.)


that two-handers are almost always better than two-weapon fighting..

Straight vanilla attacks, with Power Attack, versus I-have-a-source-of-bonus-damage-to-my-attacks. Two-handers is probably easier for most builds, sure, but it's a difference in style.



Core. Is. Not. Balanced.

Core. Is. Not. Perfect.

I've never claimed it is. There are some glaring obvious problems and a number of minor ones. But compared to 43982758942452 supplement books, Core is a lot fewer total headaches as well.

Doc Roc
2009-08-13, 09:07 PM
Having run some pretty continuous PvP stuff for about three months now, I'm going to put forward the fact that a LOT of the stuff I have to ban or restrict, I have to ban or restrict due to interactions with material from the SRD. Also, if we were pushing any higher, I'd need to ban a considerable amount of SRD material. The ECL 13 cap at the ToS is a direct product of the flailing power curve of the SRD.

I'm not going to get into a monk debate, but I'd just like to mention that the monk's speed boosts are enhancement, meaning he benefits from none of the usual ways of enhancing one's speed. But simply put, you assert things on faith, things that the majority of our contestants disagree with, and have numbers suggesting that they are correct.

Core's not terrible, mind you, but there are huge holes in it.

DragoonWraith
2009-08-13, 09:19 PM
Define "fair" -- are we talking about, monk starts adjacent to a barbarian in a 5'x10' room and both combatants proceed to full-attack each other? I could pull out NPC stats for both classes from the DMG and crunch numbers but given that the barbarian is *supposed* to be the pure-damage-delivery melee class, I would *hope* that the monk would be disadvantaged.

OTOH, monks eventually get better speed than the barbarian, stealth skills, most likely Stunning Fist, Disarm or Trip for free, not to mention strong saves (which don't help against the barbarian much, granted, but are still a signifcant feature).

The fight that's "fair" for the barbarian isn't going to be so fair for the monk, and vice versa. It's a bit apples and oranges.
Name any fight where the Monk does win?


Especially at 1st level this is at least too close to true, I'll grant you. You'll note that I haven't defended Core as perfect or completely balanced; my contention is that most of the problems that do exist before the higher levels are individual problems rather than vast systemic your-game-is-destroyed-before-it-begins failures.
Anyone who thought they were "your-game-is-destroyed-before-it-begins failures" wouldn't even be playing the game. No one is arguing that. Only that it has severe balance issues.


Wait, what? Are all reach weapons "unusable" other than the Almighty Holy Bow Down Before Thee Spiked Chain of Cheese? Certainly some weapons are mathematically optimized for average damage delivered/round, but their less-damage-optimized brethren get some other mechanic instead (set against charge, tripping weapon, etc). It matters a bit what you want your weapon to do.
Name me a use for a Whip.


If you are going to talk about silliness in equipment design, *armor* is a much better target, honestly. There's not much reason after 1st level for most PCs to wind up wearing anything other than a chain shirt (possibly mithral) or full plate armor. (At some point, a mithral breastplate might become marginally worthwhile.)
Being a Druid is a pretty good reason not to use any of the above... but I do generally agree with you, here.


Straight vanilla attacks, with Power Attack, versus I-have-a-source-of-bonus-damage-to-my-attacks. Two-handers is probably easier for most builds, sure, but it's a difference in style.
Mathematically proven that in Core, TWF will underperform constantly.

Not to mention that Sword & Board is barely supported at all.


I've never claimed it is. There are some glaring obvious problems and a number of minor ones. But compared to 43982758942452 supplement books, Core is a lot fewer total headaches as well.
I was actually going to comment on this. "The greater proportion of unbalanced features is not from Core" is an absurd statement. I wouldn't even bother checking; I'm certain this is true. The PHB is 322 pages long, MM1 is 334, and the DMG is 328. That's just under 1,000 pages total, in Core. There are hundreds of splatbooks, each with over a hundred pages. Just by sheer attrition, the splatbooks will win. That does not change the fact that a larger percentage of the Player's Handbook is unbalanced than any other book published by WotC for 3.5.

Origomar
2009-08-13, 09:23 PM
i would just settle for a compromise and only allow certain non core books.

HamHam
2009-08-13, 09:26 PM
I was actually going to comment on this. "The greater proportion of unbalanced features is not from Core" is an absurd statement. I wouldn't even bother checking; I'm certain this is true. The PHB is 322 pages long, MM1 is 334, and the DMG is 328. That's just under 1,000 pages total, in Core. There are hundreds of splatbooks, each with over a hundred pages. Just by sheer attrition, the splatbooks will win. That does not change the fact that a larger percentage of the Player's Handbook is unbalanced than any other book published by WotC for 3.5.

90% of splat book material is underpowered. And there aren't "hundreds" of splatbooks, there are maybe a couple dozen, a lot less if you don't count setting books.

There is usually one or two feats in a splat book that are broken, maybe a PrC, and a spell or two. Compared to the inherent brokenness of the Core casters, that's nothing.

aje8
2009-08-13, 09:32 PM
EDIT: I wasn't talking to HamHam, I was talking to mister: Core is balanced levels 1-9.

You're wrong......

In core, Fighter becomes a DEAD class around level 6. Yes, it's that bad.

Wizards are overpowered in or out of core. But with many splatbooks, you can easily be Tier 3 or even 2 with a well built Fighter...... Wizards, while they do get new spells, most of their best ones are in core anyway.

Let's assume we're sane and the polymorph line as well as Planar Binding, time stop. The stuff that make seasoned optimizers flinch.

Many of the best spells are STILL core.
1st Level: Grease and Silent Image
2nd: Glitterdust, Web, Robe Trick
3rd: Stinking Cloud, Haste, Fly
4th: Black Tentacles, Enervation, Telekenisis

Need I go on?

The fact is, 90% of a Wizards best spells will be core anyway. So adding non-core doesn't really help the Wizard that much. But the ability to make Spiked Chain Fighters that are actually effective.... that's a benefit. Tome of Battle? Suddenly, melee classes have options!

Doc Roc
2009-08-13, 09:44 PM
Bless you, DragoonWraith. You get a cookie, and a Vile Feat. :)

Yahzi
2009-08-13, 09:49 PM
what to do
Send him to me. I'd love to run a core game, but my players won't let me.

Seriously, I think the best advice was to let him master the rules. Unless he was happy because he felt he was able to build better characters than the other players.

How about this - let each player select 1 or 2 books, and add those to your canon, rather than just opening the flood gates.

Doc Roc
2009-08-13, 09:55 PM
I seek a student or two for my Dojo, if you wish him trained in the deep secrets of the Non'Core.

DragoonWraith
2009-08-13, 10:55 PM
90% of splat book material is underpowered. And there aren't "hundreds" of splatbooks, there are maybe a couple dozen, a lot less if you don't count setting books.

There is usually one or two feats in a splat book that are broken, maybe a PrC, and a spell or two. Compared to the inherent brokenness of the Core casters, that's nothing.
Going by Wizards' website, I came up with 157 splatbooks. So not "hundreds", it's true. You have a good point; it may be that Core edges out all the rest combined...

Flickerdart
2009-08-13, 11:27 PM
Going by Wizards' website, I came up with 157 splatbooks. So not "hundreds", it's true. You have a good point; it may be that Core edges out all the rest combined...
The Power Five: Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Archivist, Artificer. Three of those are Core. The rest of Core's classes are Tiers 4 and 5, AKA weak. Bards become not awful only out of Core. Barbarians actually get nice things with splats. So, limiting characters out of Core is a much better step towards balance. ToB against Favored Souls and Beguilers is a lot more fair than Wizard vs. Fighter, Core.

Kurald Galain
2009-08-14, 04:38 AM
Name me a use for a Whip.

As you wish, hah! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4024408&postcount=5)

Doc Roc
2009-08-14, 04:46 AM
So what I draw from this is that it takes a full-casting shadow pounce gestalt build to make a whip remotely doable. Uhhhhh. There are a couple of other good whip builds, but they are rare-rare-rare.

elliott20
2009-08-14, 05:16 AM
I seek a student or two for my Dojo, if you wish him trained in the deep secrets of the Non'Core.

... got an application form I can fill out?

OP, what needs to be said has already been said for the most part, I think.

Just want to add one more thing:

whether or not something is broken by the rules is one thing, whether or not it ends up being broken in the course of play depends entirely on the player using it. And really, you can always assure him that anything non-core will not make it into the game before you get a chance to go over it. If you let him know that you'll fix the problems on a case by case basis to the best of your and your group's abilities, it should go a long way in helping him feel a bit better about the whole thing.

Let us know how it all turns out.. and welcome!

oh yeah, and CORE IS BALANCED!!!

*watches out for the buddhist temple next door*

anytime now....

Blacky the Blackball
2009-08-14, 05:42 AM
You should probably read up on 1e or 2e if you can, then; the majority of WotC's screwups in 3e stem from trying to simultaneously keep as much as possible of 2e and radically change the core of the game, and if you know what came before fixing some of these problems (or at least compensating for them) is much easier if they come up in your game.

In my opinion the biggest offender was the change to saving throws...

In OD&D/1e/2e/BECMI: saving throws were grouped according to the source of the damage (e.g. "Spells", "Rod/Staff/Wand", "Dragon Breath") and - magical rings of protection notwithstanding - your chance of saving against something was based on your level. In other words (and these numbers are invented because I don't have my books in front of me) a first level fighter might need to roll a 14 to save vs spells, but a 10th level fighter might only need a 6 to save vs spells. The level of the spellcaster (or the spell for that matter) is irrelevant.

In 3e/3.5e: saving throws are grouped according to the type action needed to resist the damage ("Will", "Fortitude", "Reflex") and - magic items again notwithstanding - your chance of saving against something was based on the "Save DC" of the effect, which was in turn based on the level of the spell (and indirectly the caster's level). In other words (and again these numbers are invented) a fighter might need to roll a 14 to save against a first level spell cast by a first level wizard, but might need to roll a 22 to save against a fifth level spell cast by a 9th level wizard.

When 3e first came out, most people hailed this change as being a good thing. It seemed to make sense. The three saves instead of five seemed a much more sensible grouping, and it seemed "obvious" that higher level effects should be harder to save against than lower level ones.

Unfortunately it proved to be very unbalancing in favour of spellcasters and in favour of fights based on save-or-lose tactics.

In older versions, high level "save-or-lose" spells became unattractive options for casting, because as you went up levels, targets of your appropriate power level would make saving throws with increasing ease. When given the choice between throwing around directly damaging spells (bearing in mind that elemental resistances were much less common in earlier editions) or throwing around save-or-lose spells that your enemies will almost certainly resist, the save-or-lose spells have such small chances of working that they seem like wastes.

That's not to say that save-or-lose spells weren't useful. They were very good at getting rid of lesser enemies quickly so that you didn't have to waste the "big guns" of the high damage spells against them. But at high levels there's simply no point wasting both time and spell slots in casting "polymorph other" or "disintegrate" spells against targets who will only need to roll a 2 or 3 to make their saving throws against them.

In 3e/3.5e on the other hand, rather than it getting easier for level-appropriate enemies to resist your save-or-lose spells, the higher save DCs of them (compounded by the ease of targets resisting your damaging spells) made them the optimum strategy, and they became the be-all-and-end-all of high level combat.

tiercel
2009-08-14, 05:57 AM
Having run some pretty continuous PvP stuff for about three months now, I'm going to put forward the fact that a LOT of the stuff I have to ban or restrict, I have to ban or restrict due to interactions with material from the SRD.

I was under the impression that the primary assumption behind a "standard" D&D game was mostly PvM, not PvP. (Yes, some BBEGs are likely to be PC-like.) If balance is tilted (further) out of whack by substantially altering a fundamental assumption of the game, though, that's as much about the alteration as the nature of the game itself.


Also, if we were pushing any higher, I'd need to ban a considerable amount of SRD material. The ECL 13 cap at the ToS is a direct product of the flailing power curve of the SRD.

Yes, well, I acknowledged in my original post that things do start getting increasingly haywire around level 13+. I think this is the single largest systemic weakness of D&D, but I think it is fallacious to say that an increasing systemic failure at moderately high to very high levels means that the system is broken at all levels.



But simply put, you assert things on faith, things that the majority of our contestants disagree with, and have numbers suggesting that they are correct.

The assertions I see seem to be faith-based as anything I've said; it's just assumed it's true because it's been said so many times by so many people. (The whole "tier" system of classes, for instance, which is not much more than a verbose way of codifying the generalization of "casters win D&D," with the added connotation that "playing anything that's not upper tier *at any ECL* is gimping yourself and slowing down the rest of the party, unless you all like to gimp yourselves".)

It's not like I am actually defending the idea that "Core is balanced," just that it is reasonable to believe that including a lot of non-Core material can *potentially* unbalance the game quite a bit further.


Name any fight where the Monk does win?

Well, where there is terrain (or magic effects) where ranks in Balance matter. Or where there are significant sources of cover/concealment (at hand, or creatable) and hit-and-run tactics are a viable option (it either keeps the Barb from raging, or makes the Barb more vulnerable when he does rage, the Monk manages to hide and wait out the rage). Or in a 2v2 PvP situations where the Barb and Monk each have an allied spellcaster, since the Monk will better resist an enemy caster than a Barb, on average.

Or, you know, one could entertain the heretical thought that the worth of two characters isn't purely a matter of PvP outcomes.


Anyone who thought they were "your-game-is-destroyed-before-it-begins failures" wouldn't even be playing the game. No one is arguing that. Only that it has severe balance issues.

And yet people keep on playing druids, and for all the near-hysteria on boards about Druidzilla, I don't generally seeing them breaking/dominating games (at least until the higher levels, when casting generally tends to scale out of whack compared with non-casting abilities).



Name me a use for a Whip

Disarming or tripping someone from outside his reach.

An ideal weapon? No, probably not. But not "unusable." Certainly not "many weapons are unusable."


Mathematically proven that in Core, TWF will underperform constantly.

Odd, when I've seen calculations to this effect, they seem to indicate that while it is *easier* to max out THF damage versus TWF damage, it depends on your particular +damage output. If you have inspire courage floating around (especially if it's buffed at all), with add'l buffing spells and any source of extra damage (e.g. sneak attack, elemental pluses, etc) it benefits TWF more than THF.

I'd agree that in general it's probably easier to perform large damage with THF than with TWF -- if nothing else, because of the need for full attacks -- but "constantly" is pushing the point a bit hard I think.


Not to mention that Sword & Board is barely supported at all.

Well... a shield is still an additional platform for AC bonuses and/or special properties (e.g. combined with magic vestment). That's not nothing.



That does not change the fact that a larger percentage of the Player's Handbook is unbalanced than any other book published by WotC for 3.5.


The fact is, 90% of a Wizards best spells will be core anyway. So adding non-core doesn't really help the Wizard that much.

The point is, even, say, non-Core spells which are fairly well balanced individually become unbalancing *in aggregate*, just because they present an existing spellcaster with many new power options often for little (scribing into spellbook) or no (most divine caster) cost.

In that sense, all the spells added together in aggregate become unbalancing, if you allow even only mostly-open season upon them.

And as for "adding non-Core doesn't really help the Wizard"? Well... when you add mechanics that bypass the handful of limitations that exist upon the wizard, then yeah, it can help a lot. For instance:

Craft Contingent Spell. If you think contingency is tiresome, wait until you have zillions of them now that you've broken the one-contingency-at-a-time-per-caster limit.

No-SR "conjuration" direct damage spells and "I beat SR" spells/abilities. Sure, there are a small handful of no-SR Core spells, but why limit those poor underpowered spellcasters by having to ever worry about Spell Resistance again? Blast magic-immune creatures inside of antimagic shells to death with your nonmagical magic gouts of fire, or just lower SR at will and then save-or-doom.

3.0 Haste and interrupts: 3.5 got rid of free-extra-spells-per-round, but then started edging them back in with interest with celerity and an increasing number of swift-action and immediate-action spells (was anyone thinking when they wrote greater mirror image or the specialist immediate magic variants in PHBII?). Naturally, it's a lot easier to get "interrupt actions" as a spellcaster than a nonspellcaster.

Most supplements that are not ToB tend to favor spellcasters over nonspellcasters, which is silly given that Core is already leaning, creaking, then eventually breaking toward spellcasters anyway.

Scarlet Tropix
2009-08-14, 09:57 AM
SUDDEN UPDATE

You'll never guess who called me this morning.
Gabe.

He's apparently very, very sorry for the outburst last weekend, and wanted to apologize for it. I won't bore you with the details of the conversation, but I told him that I was definitely still keeping an eye on balance and that this was never intended to compromise gameplay. I talked him through a lot of new books and we ended with him deciding to either be an Archivist or an Earth Shugenja this time around.

So there's a happy ending there, but unfortunately we still might not be able to play this weekend. One of my other players (let's call him Ron) has had an Aunt suffer a heart attack and thus might not be able to join us. A sad ending, as far as things go, but at least the integrity of the group is staying intact.

kamikasei
2009-08-14, 09:59 AM
Good to hear, Nascent (about Gabe, obviously). Hope things work out.

mikej
2009-08-14, 10:04 AM
Excellent, It's nice that he apologized. Hope you all enjoy the game together. :smallsmile:

AstralFire
2009-08-14, 10:05 AM
SUDDEN UPDATE

You'll never guess who called me this morning.
Gabe.

He's apparently very, very sorry for the outburst last weekend, and wanted to apologize for it. I won't bore you with the details of the conversation, but I told him that I was definitely still keeping an eye on balance and that this was never intended to compromise gameplay. I talked him through a lot of new books and we ended with him deciding to either be an Archivist or an Earth Shugenja this time around.

So there's a happy ending there, but unfortunately we still might not be able to play this weekend. One of my other players (let's call him Ron) has had an Aunt suffer a heart attack and thus might not be able to join us. A sad ending, as far as things go, but at least the integrity of the group is staying intact.

Bittersweet, but it's good that your friendship isn't in jeopardy. Glad it all worked out for you. :) My thoughts go to Ron's Aunt.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-08-14, 10:07 AM
Congradulations. Now excuse me whilst I derail your thread.

AstralFire
2009-08-14, 10:10 AM
Congradulations. Now excuse me whilst I derail your thread.

NOT SO FAST, PHARAOAOAOAH

(...You have no idea how long I've been waiting to say that.)

Topical: Shugenja are extremely awesome and my favorite Vancian casters in the game because of their Sense Elements class ability. It is very useful; encourage him to use it creatively!

Tempest Fennac
2009-08-14, 10:17 AM
That's sad about the aunt. :smallfrown: Please could you let us know if she's okay if you get updates on that?

Flickerdart
2009-08-14, 10:21 AM
Blast, there goes my ingenious master plan. I'm sorry, Xanatos, I have learned nothing.

Scarlet Tropix
2009-08-14, 10:24 AM
I will keep you all informed.

Also, I agree with the notion that Shugenjas are win.
I had a compatriot play a very good Water specialist. He had a duel with his rival Air specialist in a pond while running on water. (the Air guy jumped from lilypad to lilypad)

Indon
2009-08-14, 10:27 AM
The Power Five: Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Archivist, Artificer. Three of those are Core.

Divine Metamagic is not core (nor are Nightsticks) - without that, the Cleric is not on the same level as the others you list.

I'll put Tiercel's point succinctly: More options leads to a greater chance of higher-powered synergy. Every book you add to the game increases the game's overall power curve across all levels, because you are adding material that has options in it.

The PHB, DMG, and MM are exceptionally great sources of powerful synergy because they contain the most material, and the material that is best-supported with options.

The PHB contains a fair number of feats, more classes than any other book, each of which is better-supported out of core than most non-core classes are, and a majority of the game's spells. The DMG contains a smaller number of PrC's, and the MM features all the most well-supported creature types.

By options per book, Core outperforms any non-core material. It's unsurprising that it contains the most opportunities for exploitation, and inevitable that each further addition to the game provides more such opportunities.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-08-14, 10:34 AM
NOT SO FAST, PHARAOAOAOAH
You've activated my trap card. In America.


I was under the impression that the primary assumption behind a "standard" D&D game was mostly PvM, not PvP. (Yes, some BBEGs are likely to be PC-like.)
And that is why is is a good idea for the classes to be balanced against each other. If I want to play as the Knights of the Zodiac, I'd better be able to take out Sailor Moon if that's where the campaign's going, without the DM playing them as incompetent dumb bosses. (Ok, dumber...)


The assertions I see seem to be faith-based as anything I've said; it's just assumed it's true because it's been said so many times by so many people.
Check out the Test of Spite battles. Notice how melee characters generally tend to fare vs casters?


Well, where there is terrain (or magic effects) where ranks in Balance matter. Or where there are significant sources of cover/concealment (at hand, or creatable) and hit-and-run tactics are a viable option (it either keeps the Barb from raging, or makes the Barb more vulnerable when he does rage, the Monk manages to hide and wait out the rage). Or in a 2v2 PvP situations where the Barb and Monk each have an allied spellcaster, since the Monk will better resist an enemy caster than a Barb, on average.
Let's start at the very beginning, a very good place to start.

Monks, due to MAD, are unlikely to have 5 ranks in Balance. Not that they couldn't but they also need ranks in Jump, Tumble, Move Silently, Hide, possibly K. Arcana and K. Religion, Spot, and a few other skills. 5 ranks is a lot when you will only have 4-5 skill points per level. Just saying.

Hit and run in terrain with concealment? At low levels, the Barbarian matches the Monk in movement, and at higher levels, enhancement bonuses to speeds can be obtained as well. The monk is not going to move that much faster than the Barbarian, so they could end up trading blows back and forth, which is just what the barbarian is best at.

Or he could just ready an action to hit the monk when he pops out.

And quite frankly, a Monk dies to an enemy caster easier than the Barbarian. The Barbarian, if we exclude Steadfast Determination, will die to spells that target will saves, but Monks will either have poor Will, Fort, or Reflex saves depending on their stat allocations. Or low Strength, which makes them vulnerable to Black Tentacles. And then there's Solid Fog, which doesn't offer saves. Or the Barbarian's caster could buff him up and he'd smash someone's face in hard, for which there is no saving throw against. I could go on.


And yet people keep on playing druids, and for all the near-hysteria on boards about Druidzilla, I don't generally seeing them breaking/dominating games (at least until the higher levels, when casting generally tends to scale out of whack compared with non-casting abilities).
Just becaue I choose to be a pacifist doesn't mean that I can't fight.


Odd, when I've seen calculations to this effect, they seem to indicate that while it is *easier* to max out THF damage versus TWF damage, it depends on your particular +damage output. If you have inspire courage floating around (especially if it's buffed at all), with add'l buffing spells and any source of extra damage (e.g. sneak attack, elemental pluses, etc) it benefits TWF more than THF.
Sneak Attack works against fewer and fewer types of monsters the higher level you get. The Elemental enchantments are generally poor choices that eat up your enchantment slots. Also, Resist Energy.


Sure, there are a small handful of no-SR Core spells
Mage's Disjunction
Gate
Incendiary Cloud
Forcecage
Acid Fog
Wall of Iron (Can be toppled onto people)
Wall of Force
Wall of Stone (Can be used to trap people, ref. negates)
Cloudkill
Halucenatory Terrain
Solid Fog
Black Tentacles
Sleet Storm
Ice Storm (partially)
Dispel Magic
Snake Sigil
Stinking Cloud
Acid Arrow
Glitterdust
Web
Detect Thoughts
Grease


The point is, even, say, non-Core spells which are fairly well balanced individually
Gate. Fullstop.

(Contingency, Shapechange, Polymorph Any Object...)

quick_comment
2009-08-14, 10:35 AM
Has anyone here run a game where core is completely banned?

Ie, none of the spells or classes from the SRD, none of the monsters, and only the feats that are required for prcs and feats in whatever splatbooks are allowed.

Another_Poet
2009-08-14, 10:45 AM
SUDDEN UPDATE

Huh, glad I read the thread before replying with advice :smallwink:

Although I would've pretty much said what the other playgrounders said. Glad to hear you guys worked it out. :smallsmile:

ap

AstralFire
2009-08-14, 10:49 AM
Can we please move "WWE D&D RAW-IS-WAR Extravaganza #314" to another thread? I feel bad doing it in this one. I want to participate, but... :|

Scarlet Tropix
2009-08-14, 10:52 AM
I dunno, I was kind of enjoying seeing it survive without me.
XD

AstralFire
2009-08-14, 10:56 AM
Ah, well, your call. -spins on head and exits topic list-

Indon
2009-08-14, 10:57 AM
Can we please move "WWE D&D RAW-IS-WAR Extravaganza #314" to another thread?

The one place where Monk/Bards not only function, but thrive!

Scarlet Tropix
2009-08-14, 11:03 AM
I remember when I thought monks were the perfect class, back when I was about seven. Blissful ignorant times. =3

AstralFire
2009-08-14, 11:04 AM
I remember when I thought monks were the perfect class, back when I was about seven. Blissful ignorant times. =3

I was... seventeen. >.> *22 now. Almost 23.*

Scarlet Tropix
2009-08-14, 11:06 AM
On a different note though, I don't think anyone ever falls for the Bard.

*prepares to be proven wrong*

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-08-14, 11:07 AM
I like to rock out and set people on fire.

AstralFire
2009-08-14, 11:08 AM
On a different note though, I don't think anyone ever falls for the Bard.

*prepares to be proven wrong*

The Bard's actually pretty decent even in Core once you take out the full casters. It's just boring. With supplements, boring is no longer an issue.

quick_comment
2009-08-14, 11:09 AM
On a different note though, I don't think anyone ever falls for the Bard.

*prepares to be proven wrong*

Even in core, bards can be good. They have access to good buff spells and their music, so they can support the team, and they can also just talk enemies down.

Out of core, they get nice things like sublime chord, virtuoso and snowflake wardance. Also dragonfire inspiration and song of the white raven.

Scarlet Tropix
2009-08-14, 11:15 AM
I did mean only in core, sorry for lack of clarity.

I know they aren't horrible or anything, I just meant I think it's obvious where their problems lay, unlike the monk which is deceptive to new players.

Thorin
2009-08-14, 11:17 AM
If you use the whip-dagger from 3.0, the bard becomes a (even more)versatile character. 15ft reach finesseable weapon? sign me up AND you start with the proficiency for it, so, thumbs up!

quick_comment
2009-08-14, 11:20 AM
I did mean only in core, sorry for lack of clarity.

I know they aren't horrible or anything, I just meant I think it's obvious where their problems lay, unlike the monk which is deceptive to new players.

The problem is that bards sing at people.

This is silly.

Scarlet Tropix
2009-08-14, 11:24 AM
The problem is that bards sing at people.

This is silly.

Quoted for truth.

One post later, but eh.

Thorin
2009-08-14, 11:25 AM
You sing epic tales about the glory of the fallem martyrs to inspire courage into your allies while ripping the flesh of your living enemies with your lute.

Or you use subttle tunes to cloud and fog the mind of those of weak will.

This, sounds quite *not the same* to "sing at people". Use a little the imagination to avoid crushing the bard into a *Oh, he is like britney spears in an armor* explanation

Umael
2009-08-14, 11:26 AM
Name any fight where the Monk does win?

NEWS FLASH!

Gamers around the world were shocked to learn that in a complete upset, a Monk won a fight against heavyweight all-time champion Pun-Pun.

"I don't understand," said Pun-Pun by telepathy interview. "This has never happened before."

"No comment," said Pun-Pun's agent, Mr. Nosrules N. Breksum.

Unofficial sources close to Pun-Pun say that the infamous kobold has criticized the fight as being "unfair" and "completely against the spirit of the game."

"Who is this Mook, I mean, Monk?" demanded Joe Pizza, a gamer who came out in support of Pun-Pun. "He comes out of the blue and completely trashes our hero! It has to be a cheat! I think someone should audit his account, see if he's using illegal splatbooks or something!"

Even opponents of Pun-Pun are baffled as to the results of the fight and ask the most important question of the campaign to date.

"It was absolutely incredible!" said Jane Dice, another gamer who just said she was interested in the fight. "It happened so fast. One moment Pun-Pun was up, the next moment the other guy just booted him in the head and Pun-Pun went down! Just who is that Masked Monk, anyway? They won't tell us!"

Who is he?

"It was just a bookkeeping error, I'm ashamed to admit," says Mostest Holy Glittergold, the head bookie. "Everyone just thought it would just be another Mook, I mean Monk, going down. We didn't even bother recording the name of the guy, you know what I'm saying."

Mostest Holy Glittergold denied that the loss was a publicity stunt.

"Look, this is Pun-Pun we're talking about! You think the Big Scale himself is going to blow his perfect record, especially against some no-talent flurry-of-uselessness? What for? What do you think this is, some kind of a joke?"

The idea of a rematch has been kicked around, but apparently Pun-Pun didn't prepare for this kind of contingency. Although Pun-Pun denies that he needs the money, a rematch fight would be worth a lot of bonus experience points for the roleplay value. Still, rumors persist that its not about the roleplay, but the money.

"Rematch fights, that's where it's at!" said Father Thwack, a priest of Hextor and expert on PvP fights. "The whole thing was a setup. Pun-Pun's been in trouble with the Yuan-Ti Mafia and owes them some serious cash. So he takes a fall, claims a fluke, and goes back for the rematch, which pays a lot better than this little exhibition gigs! As an added bonus, now his reputation's vulnerable, so you get all these up-and-coming whizes coming out of the Keep on the Borderlands, wanting their chance to take on the Big Scale himself! Pun-Pun gets a steady stream of highly anticipated fights, good money, as people watch to see the next Big Monk Upset."

Did Pun-Pun took a fall?

"By my d20, no! Never!" said Mr. Pizza.

"These people don't get it," said Father Thwack. "So Pun-Pun loses a fight. So what? It's not like he needs the experience points anyway! He's the freakin' Pun-Pun!"

Still, it brings to mind the question, if Pun-Pun goes for the rematch, how will they find him when they don't even know his name?

"It's going to take a quest, like an epic quest," said Ms. Dice. "No name, no location, nothing. All we know about him is that he likes the Frantics."

Flickerdart
2009-08-14, 11:28 AM
Yeah, a Core Bard still has:
UMD and a CHA focus. Grease, Hideous Laughter (which he gets 3 levels before the Sorcerer), Charm Person as great low-level SoLs (though Charm Person is more for avoiding fights beforehand). Shame that most of them are Will-centered. They still get Alter Self, Glitterdust, Suggestion, Summon Monster (although that starts to lag behind after 4th). Sure, Bard gets his 3rd level spells when the Wizard is rocking 4th, but they get some of them (like Confusion) at that level already, plus the beautiful glibness. Sadly, they get lvl 4 when the Sorcerer is already rocking 5th, but Hold Monster and Dominate are both downgraded. So until 10th, their casting still gets them by. They get two good saves which is more than most classes can say, medium BAB and buffs for decent gishyness, and good skill points and skills. They can also heal a little bit, and UMD Vigor wands if necessary. Bard's not bad in Core, he just isn't especially good.

mikej
2009-08-14, 11:29 AM
I remember when I thought monks were the perfect class, back when I was about seven. Blissful ignorant times. =3

Same with my friend, except he was like twenty, justified by him saying that they get something every level. Of course, I received something every level also, more spells to use.

Scarlet Tropix
2009-08-14, 11:38 AM
I think Umael just won this thread.

I just about died laughing.

Blackfang108
2009-08-14, 11:55 AM
I think Umael just won this thread.

I just about died laughing.

I second.

All in agreement:

mikej
2009-08-14, 11:59 AM
sure [/filler.]

Thorin
2009-08-14, 12:03 PM
Oh yeah, he won. No contest

Tempest Fennac
2009-08-14, 12:25 PM
Thorin's comment reminds me of some feats I made a while back which grant new Bard songs (I named them all after songs which I like): http://forum.mydndgame.com/index.php/topic,137.0.html .

As far as core goes, I see Bards as the sort of class which is useful for supporting the party when all the other rolls are filled (my rationel is that it was designed as a jack-of-all trades class so it's not going to have been initially designed to fill other rolls fully).

Dyllan
2009-08-14, 12:29 PM
...Even opponents of Pun-Pun are baffled as to the results of the fight and ask the most important question of the campaign to date...

Obviously, the monk attacked from the air (using the wings he gained when someone claimed core was balanced), and just kept throwing +1 shuriken of kobold slaying until he rolled a 20 and Pun-Pun rolled a 1.

quick_comment
2009-08-14, 12:42 PM
Obviously, the monk attacked from the air (using the wings he gained when someone claimed core was balanced), and just kept throwing +1 shuriken of kobold slaying until he rolled a 20 and Pun-Pun rolled a 1.

As a divine rank ten trillion deity, pun pun doesnt fail saves on a natural 1.

tiercel
2009-08-14, 01:08 PM
SUDDEN UPDATE

You'll never guess who called me this morning.
Gabe.

He's apparently very, very sorry for the outburst last weekend, and wanted to apologize for it. I won't bore you with the details of the conversation, but I told him that I was definitely still keeping an eye on balance and that this was never intended to compromise gameplay.....

I'm glad to hear this! In the end, all these internet board arguments aside, the point is to find a game that works for *you* (i.e., you as a DM and your players) -- whether this is a heavily houseruled, little-Core-as-possible game, or an attempt to run Core-only, whether seasoned with "gentleman's agreements" on certain subjects or more-or-less RAW.

On a side note, I *like* bards (gee, who would have guessed, given my avatar). They have pretty darn good spellcasting for a class that doesn't have full-casting focus -- spellcasting that is pretty much always *useful*, even if it isn't quite as plentiful/powerful as a full caster (esp at higher levels). If you took the broken polymorph away from "regular" gish bards would compare pretty well; heck, people seem okay with taking rogues into melee with d6 HD and light armor, and while bards don't get sneak attack they do get pretty much fighter total attack bonus with Inspire Courage running (which also hits the rest of the party), plus some self-buffing spells and healing (and UMD). All this and skillmonkeying, Knowledge: Random Details to Make or Break Your Plot, Jedi Mind Tricks (bardic fascinate/suggestion)....

...and what, people get hung up on the stereotype of goofy useless comic relief with a lute? I mean, geez, if the "singing in combat" thing is getting your goat, make it a guttural war-chant, or just falling into the rhythm of public speaking as you Perform (oratory)... I mean, come on....


Now, I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country. Men, all this stuff you’ve heard about America not wanting to fight, wanting to stay out of the war, is a lot of horse dung. Americans traditionally love to fight. All real Americans love the sting of battle....

We have the finest food and equipment, the best spirit and the best men in the world. You know, by God I actually pity those poor bastards we’re going up against. By God, I do. We’re not just going to shoot the bastards, we’re going to cut out their living guts and use them to grease the treads of our tanks. We’re going to murder those lousy Hun bastards by the bushel....

Now there’s another thing I want you to remember. I don’t want to get any messages saying that we are holding our position. We’re not holding anything. Let the Hun do that. We are advancing constantly and we’re not interested in holding onto anything except the enemy. We're going to hold onto him by the nose and we're going to kick him in the ass. We're going to kick the hell out of him all the time and we're gonna go through him like crap through a goose....

or even, of course:


...my brothers! I see in your eyes the same fear that would take the heart of me. A day may come when the courage of men fails, when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship, but it is not this day. An hour of woes and shattered shields, when the age of men comes crashing down! But it is not this day! This day we fight!

quick_comment
2009-08-14, 01:16 PM
Also, from Chesty Puller



"Don't forget that you're First Marines! Not all the Communists in hell can overrun you!"

Olo Demonsbane
2009-08-14, 01:17 PM
Welcome to the forums!

On the current discussion...

I am probably the most qualified to answer questions about Test of Spite besides Tidesinger because I have had 12 fights. I won 9 of them. Guess the mode of offense of my three losses? Melee.

Only one of my wins was melee, and that character was a Cleric/Totemist/Sapphire Hierarch. 8 or so attacks per round.

Doc Roc
2009-08-14, 01:44 PM
Non-core helps, helps a lot. My favorite book is probably tome of battle.

Here's how it's going to go. We're going to keep arguing about this, everyone's going to demonstrate ignorance, someone's gonna get scrubbed, and then we'll pause for a while before moving on and attacking it from yet another angle. Through all of this, I will be accused of being stupid, near-sighted, hyperbolic, wrong, inexperienced, misguided, or will just have my posts ignored.

I'm not interested. Why should I be? I have numbers a mile deep, and my kung fu is strong. How about a funny picture instead?



http://www.gadgetgrid.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/hands-free-cockpit-umbrella.png
!

PS: Pun-Pun drops into an infinite action nova via alter reality, casts an infinite number of appropriate divinations, finds the monk, casts mind-rape at an infinite DC, and then manifests fusion with an infinite ML. Alert: Pun-Pun Doesn't Lose

tiercel
2009-08-14, 04:14 PM
"I have numbers/sources" doesn't work if you don't cite your sources. Just sayin'....

And at some point, though we can indeed argue, it's a matter of playstyle preference. I'm going to get ignored/dissed by people who haven't had my experiences in their own games too. Number crunching may show superiority in a specific type of circumstance with a specific kind of optimization, but in the end, it's an RPG -- with all kinds of situations and all different levels of optimization. It's worth noting big trends that will affect everyone (the higher in level you go, the more power casters have relative to noncasters, at least non-ToB ones) and land mines for any game (e.g. polymorph, many 9th level spells), but at some point we might as well be arguing about whether broccoli or brussels sprouts are inherently superior vegetables.

(Cue discussion of "tier 1" and "tier 2" vegetables, and discussions of which vegetables are "really only a 3 bite vegetable".)

Scarlet Tropix
2009-08-14, 04:25 PM
And then there's the Tomato. It's clearly a tier 2 fruit.

AstralFire
2009-08-14, 04:34 PM
And then there's the Tomato. It's clearly a tier 2 fruit.

No, it's Tier 1. I hate how all of the Tier 1 classes play (like Tomato), but I love all of their Tier 2 derivatives (like ketchup and vegetable soup.)

Scarlet Tropix
2009-08-14, 04:36 PM
What if you take it and gestalt it with tier 1 noodles and tier 3 meat?
Gamebreaker, am I right?

Gnomo
2009-08-14, 05:37 PM
What if you have some gestalt Tier 1 noodles with more Tier 1 noodles and then go run a marathon.

Frosty
2009-08-14, 05:43 PM
And then there's the Tomato. It's clearly a tier 2 fruit.

Tomato's a fruit? :smalltongue:

Yeah...you pick up QUICKLY the culture around these parts. May your threads be free of trolls forever.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-08-14, 05:44 PM
What if you take it and gestalt it with tier 1 noodles and tier 3 meat?
Gamebreaker, am I right?

Well, obviously it is, if you're going to break the rules! Gestalt only allows two, so it'd have to be tomato//noodles or meat//tomato, not both.

Elfin
2009-08-14, 05:45 PM
Non-core helps, helps a lot. My favorite book is probably tome of battle.

Here's how it's going to go. We're going to keep arguing about this, everyone's going to demonstrate ignorance, someone's gonna get scrubbed, and then we'll pause for a while before moving on and attacking it from yet another angle. Through all of this, I will be accused of being stupid, near-sighted, hyperbolic, wrong, inexperienced, misguided, or will just have my posts ignored.

I'm not interested. Why should I be? I have numbers a mile deep, and my kung fu is strong. How about a funny picture instead?



http://www.gadgetgrid.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/hands-free-cockpit-umbrella.png
!

PS: Pun-Pun drops into an infinite action nova via alter reality, casts an infinite number of appropriate divinations, finds the monk, casts mind-rape at an infinite DC, and then manifests fusion with an infinite ML. Alert: Pun-Pun Doesn't Lose

True wisdom.

Scarlet Tropix
2009-08-14, 06:15 PM
Well, obviously it is, if you're going to break the rules! Gestalt only allows two, so it'd have to be tomato//noodles or meat//tomato, not both.

Then multiclassing double gestalts and add in a tier 2 cheese.

AstralFire
2009-08-14, 06:18 PM
Then multiclassing double gestalts and add in a tier 2 cheese.

I like the way you think. :elan::cool:

Scarlet Tropix
2009-08-14, 06:31 PM
NOTE

Before this thread enters madness and the mods toss us into the Snarl, I should fufill its purpose by telling you all that Ron's aunt is fine (relatively speaking) and he will be joining us tomorrow for gaming.

Pun-Pun Spaghetti for everyone!

Umael
2009-08-14, 06:41 PM
PS: Pun-Pun drops into an infinite action nova via alter reality, casts an infinite number of appropriate divinations, finds the monk, casts mind-rape at an infinite DC, and then manifests fusion with an infinite ML. Alert: Pun-Pun Doesn't Lose

I know! Shocking, isn't it! :smalltongue:

AstralFire
2009-08-14, 06:57 PM
NOTE

Before this thread enters madness and the mods toss us into the Snarl, I should fufill its purpose by telling you all that Ron's aunt is fine (relatively speaking) and he will be joining us tomorrow for gaming.

Pun-Pun Spaghetti for everyone!

Hoorja! Glad to hear it!

Frosty
2009-08-14, 07:00 PM
Wait, so do we worship Pun Pun or the Spaghetti monster? WHO IS THE REAL OVERDEITY?

Androgeus
2009-08-14, 07:10 PM
Wait, so do we worship Pun Pun or the Spaghetti monster? WHO IS THE REAL OVERDEITY?

Spaghetti Monster RHD//Pun-Pun?

Faleldir
2009-08-14, 07:20 PM
Tomato's a fruit? :smalltongue:

Tomato is balanced if you only play it as a fruit. WOTC could not anticipate the power of tomato sauces. :smalltongue:

Scarlet Tropix
2009-08-14, 07:48 PM
Tomato is balanced if you only play it as a fruit. WOTC could not anticipate the power of tomato sauces. :smalltongue:

They either expected a one level dip for S.A.L.A.D. Purposes or for you to multiclass as a BLT.

derfenrirwolv
2009-08-14, 07:50 PM
Try this

Do a demo fight. 1 level 20 wizard vs 10 level 20 fighters.

Glimbur
2009-08-14, 07:57 PM
They either expected a one level dip for S.A.L.A.D. Purposes or for you to multiclass as a BLT.

My favorite use for tomato is actually to qualify for the Salsa PrC from La Vida Loca. Sure, it's third party, but I enjoy going well with anyone else in the party... and I like the flavor of being so hot my enemies have to save or run for water, which doesn't even help.

Scarlet Tropix
2009-08-14, 08:19 PM
My favorite use for tomato is actually to qualify for the Salsa PrC from La Vida Loca. Sure, it's third party, but I enjoy going well with anyone else in the party... and I like the flavor of being so hot my enemies have to save or run for water, which doesn't even help.

Personally when I go for spice I try to use the BBQ Ribs from the Grilled books. Sometimes I get lucky and they choke on the bones while freaking out over the heat.

Flickerdart
2009-08-14, 08:22 PM
Try this

Do a demo fight. 1 level 20 wizard vs 10 level 20 fighters.
With judicious use of tactics and magic items, the surviving Fighters can in fact possibly kill the Wizard's Astral Projection duplicate maybe. Don't underestimate magic items and item advantage.

Also, the Fighters could take Leadership...

quick_comment
2009-08-14, 08:39 PM
With judicious use of tactics and magic items, the surviving Fighters can in fact possibly kill the Wizard's Astral Projection duplicate maybe. Don't underestimate magic items and item advantage.

Also, the Fighters could take Leadership...

The wizard casts meteor swarm followed by prismatic sphere. Any surviving fighter brave enough to try crossing it, and who actually gets a natural 20 gets to find out that the wizard is either asleep in a rope trick, or is gone.

derfenrirwolv
2009-08-14, 11:40 PM
With judicious use of tactics and magic items, the surviving Fighters can in fact possibly kill the Wizard's Astral Projection duplicate maybe. Don't underestimate magic items and item advantage.

Also, the Fighters could take Leadership...

Sure, but how will the tin cans deal with magic jar memorized 9 times? :)

olentu
2009-08-14, 11:43 PM
Sure, but how will the tin cans deal with magic jar memorized 9 times? :)

Well from the quote the obvious answer seems to me to be their spellcasting cohorts.

Mando Knight
2009-08-15, 12:17 AM
Also, the Fighters could take Leadership...

So can Sorcerers. And, oops! They're better at it.

PId6
2009-08-15, 12:25 AM
Also, the Fighters could take Leadership...
Actually, you're right. 20x level 17 wizards can beat a single level 20 wizard.

quick_comment
2009-08-15, 12:33 AM
Actually, you're right. 20x level 17 wizards can beat a single level 20 wizard.

You cant have a cohort higher level than yourself. So its 10 level 10 fighters, and 10 level 8 wizards.

PId6
2009-08-15, 12:35 AM
You cant have a cohort higher level than yourself. So its 10 level 10 fighters, and 10 level 8 wizards.
10 level 20 fighters.

BlueWizard
2009-08-15, 12:37 AM
You could discuss certain unbalanced options. Some spells in the non-core are totally not balanced, perhaps an equal ground can be found.

Flickerdart
2009-08-15, 08:48 AM
The wizard casts meteor swarm followed by prismatic sphere. Any surviving fighter brave enough to try crossing it, and who actually gets a natural 20 gets to find out that the wizard is either asleep in a rope trick, or is gone.
Meteor Swarm is a terrible spell filled with suck, and the barest of energy protection negates its damage enough not to matter. You don't use damage spells, especially abysmal damage spells, on frontliners. A decent Wizard would Gate in some dragons, sic his golems, Planar Bound ally and other summons on the Fighters, and then sit in a Prismatic Sphere/Stone Wall combo until the dust clears. But Meteor Swarm? Ew.

AstralFire
2009-08-15, 09:00 AM
Meteor Swarm is a terrible spell filled with suck, and the barest of energy protection negates its damage enough not to matter. You don't use damage spells, especially abysmal damage spells, on frontliners. A decent Wizard would Gate in some dragons, sic his golems, Planar Bound ally and other summons on the Fighters, and then sit in a Prismatic Sphere/Stone Wall combo until the dust clears. But Meteor Swarm? Ew.

Meteor Swarm vs 20xL10s = Better than wasting Gate.

quick_comment
2009-08-15, 10:01 AM
Meteor Swarm is a terrible spell filled with suck, and the barest of energy protection negates its damage enough not to matter. You don't use damage spells, especially abysmal damage spells, on frontliners. A decent Wizard would Gate in some dragons, sic his golems, Planar Bound ally and other summons on the Fighters, and then sit in a Prismatic Sphere/Stone Wall combo until the dust clears. But Meteor Swarm? Ew.

Ok, so my wizard kills all the fighters with the expenditure of a single 9th level spell slot, your wizard does it with the expenditure of a single 9th level spell slot and a thousand experience.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-08-15, 10:03 AM
How do you kill them all with a single Meteor Swarm?

Eldariel
2009-08-15, 11:04 AM
Even Maximized Twinned Meteor Swarm only deals 384 to a single target and 288 to adjacents...and that's assuming nobody has fire resistance, ring of evasion, or some such. Maximized Meteor Swarm deals mere 192 points of damage to primary & 144 to others, and standard Meteor Swarm mere 112 provided all orbs are aimed at the same target and hit, and 84 to adjacents. Maximized & Quickened is 304 to the primary target and 228 to adjacents meaning it'll probably kill one of them provided no missed orbs or resistance to fire or such.

Hell, 288 damage is survivable for a level 20 Fighter even without any resistances (10+5.5*19 = 114.5 HP from class levels - all you need is 28 Con for sufficient HP to survive; now granted that requires you to start with an 18 in Con/16 + Dwarf, or to have Barbarian-levels or some such, but it's well doable).

derfenrirwolv
2009-08-15, 11:40 AM
Well from the quote the obvious answer seems to me to be their spellcasting cohorts.

Which is supposed to demonstrate balance... how?

FlawedParadigm
2009-08-15, 11:56 AM
And just because somehow no one has mentioned it yet; Time Stop.

I mean, seriously...that thing alone breaks Core right in half. Tidesinger can tell you some wonderful Time Stop beatdown stories. We won't even discuss 3.0 + Haste in the mix. Quicken Spell is just as bad, though. Time Stop doesn't even look innocuous - it just screams "this is something a non-caster will never get away with." Nevermind that, despite any potential low level survival difficulty that may be involved, the non-casters need just as many XPs as the casters to get to those levels.

Yeah, I know, Gabe apologised, but I didn't see a mention that he actually admitted core to be, well, not paradise. I'd go so far as to say a 17th level Wizard could probably beat any two non-casters he could come up with at that level, barring things like silly infinite damage loops abuse. I might even give good odds against two level 20 melee sorts, provided the Wizard gets to start at least 50 feet away or so. We won't even discuss Epic.

AstralFire
2009-08-15, 12:00 PM
Yeah, I know, Gabe apologised, but I didn't see a mention that he actually admitted core to be, well, not paradise.

Is that even necessary? -shrugs-

I try and know a lot about a game system because I DM a lot and I am interested in making my own work. For other people, it is enough to know that they play something they enjoy.

Scarlet Tropix
2009-08-15, 12:40 PM
Is that even necessary? -shrugs-

I try and know a lot about a game system because I DM a lot and I am interested in making my own work. For other people, it is enough to know that they play something they enjoy.

Exactly my mentality. Thank you.

sofawall
2009-08-15, 01:34 PM
Even Maximized Twinned Meteor Swarm only deals 384 to a single target and 288 to adjacents...and that's assuming nobody has fire resistance, ring of evasion, or some such. Maximized Meteor Swarm deals mere 192 points of damage to primary & 144 to others, and standard Meteor Swarm mere 112 provided all orbs are aimed at the same target and hit, and 84 to adjacents. Maximized & Quickened is 304 to the primary target and 228 to adjacents meaning it'll probably kill one of them provided no missed orbs or resistance to fire or such.

Hell, 288 damage is survivable for a level 20 Fighter even without any resistances (10+5.5*19 = 114.5 HP from class levels - all you need is 28 Con for sufficient HP to survive; now granted that requires you to start with an 18 in Con/16 + Dwarf, or to have Barbarian-levels or some such, but it's well doable).

Or be a totemist. What else are you gonna use your stat points in?

I've seen totemists packing 44 con by the time 9th level spells were around.
At level 17 they can survive 288 just based on their con bonus, never mind HD or Rageclaws.

EDIT: And it could be 54 con at ECL 20... Just saying...

54 con=22 mod. 20*22+19*4.5+8=533 hp at ECL 20. Add Rageclaws (Essentia:(4+2 totem+1 expanded soulmeld capacity)*2=14) for 14*3=42 and you don't die until -52, and can keep fighting until then. You have effective hit points of 585. Yikes.