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Frosty
2009-08-13, 04:31 PM
Ok...so, I'm about to play in a campaign as a Crusader/Ruby Knight Vindicator. The power level is a bit higher than I was expecting (this is also a Solo campaign) and I was wondering how the special character creation rules should affect my build. Starting level is 16. Also, apparently the DM plans on taking my char to level 40. The power level can only be described as AWESOME since I'll be out-grappling Titans and such :smallbiggrin:

80 point buy.
You can increase a stat to 19 and 20 for 4 points each, 21 and 22 for 5 points each, 23 and 24 for 6 points each, and so on and so forth. On top of that, as a human you get +2 to a stat of your choice.
HP is max minus 1 every level.

My current plan for levels is Cloistered Cleric 1/Crusader7/RKV7/Crusader1. I will then fill in more Crusader levels until most likely level 20 or 22. Then...I'm stuck. I dunno epic rules for martial adepts. I could start taking Warblade or Swordsage for even MOAR maneuvers I guess. Or I can start taking Cloisterd Cleric and get actual spellcasting? But the DM wants my character to have a "Hercules" feel so too much spellcasting probably is out.

The Glyphstone
2009-08-13, 04:38 PM
I'd say try and meet the prerequisites for Legendary Dreadnaught (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/prestigeClasses/legendaryDreadnought.htm) as quickly as you can. It's not exactly a high-power class, but it oozes 'Epic-level bruiser' flavor....and being able to bull-rush THROUGH a Wall of Force is probably as Herculean as non-magical D&D gets, once you've already established your ability to grapple Dire Lions and slay Hydras.

HamHam
2009-08-13, 04:46 PM
What? That is pretty insane.

Once you get your 9th level maneuvers, taking more martial adept classes seems sub-optimal, imho. Since you should have a good Cha to power your Turn-based abilities anyway, pick up a couple levels of Prestige Paladin to get Cha to saves while advancing your spellcasting.

You may also want to consider taking Crusader up to 13 for Steely Resolve 20 and Mettle.

Dip into Barbarian using the Lion totem thing from CC to get Pounce?

Oslecamo
2009-08-13, 04:54 PM
Level 40? With as few spellcasting as possible?

Seems like an excellent oportunity to collect as many combat Prc as possible.

Try to get all ToB Prc for starters. The results shall be...Interesting.

Barbarian and fighter dips wouldn't hurt either.

Frosty
2009-08-13, 05:08 PM
The game has a changed a bit now that I've talked with the DM some more, but this is still a good thought/academic exercise.

What can a character with all the ToB PRCs do? :smallbiggrin: Hmm, maybe add some Hurling Hulker as well...

HamHam
2009-08-13, 05:23 PM
Try to get all ToB Prc for starters. The results shall be...Interesting.

This does not seem like a very good idea. You can't have more than like two stances up at once and having more maneuvers that you never use because of action economy is not very useful.

Instead, you should be looking for classes that will give you static bonuses that will make the maneuvers you already have more powerful.

EDIT: Using the original parameters, here's the bare bones of what I would do.

Str 22/Dex 16/Con 18/Int 12/Wis 16/Cha 18 for starting stats.

Crusader 13/Cloistered Cleric 1/RKV 7/Barbarian 1/Prestige Paladin 3/Legendary Dreadnought 10/Divine Emissary 5

Frosty
2009-08-13, 06:58 PM
I'm also allowed to use this epic progression for Martial Adepts, which gives me incentive to keep on going as Crusader: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=95516

HamHam
2009-08-13, 07:14 PM
I'm also allowed to use this epic progression for Martial Adepts, which gives me incentive to keep on going as Crusader: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=95516

Hm. Honestly the Crusader progression there seems kinda meh. Steely Resolve and Furious Counterstrike are not that good. I would definitely go with the previously mentioned Epic PrCs and just take Strike of the Dual Adept, Strike of the Triadic Master, and Signature move using your general character feats (you still get those in Epic right?).

Using 5 feats (the two Strikes and three Signature Moves) you can do Mountain Tombstone Strike, White Raven Hammer, and Ancient Mountain Hammer all at once for an attack that will ignore DR, deal 18d6 extra damage, 2d6 Con damage, and atuomatically stuns the target. And you can do this every single turn.

Frosty
2009-08-13, 07:17 PM
The real reason to go Epic Crusader is because you get those feats FASTER. Bonus epic feats in addition to the ones you get at 21, 24, 27, 30, etc. Perhaps once I've gotten enough of those feats I can go take some cool PrCs?

Cieyrin
2009-08-13, 07:26 PM
Don't forget these feats for mastering the various disciplines, also by Krimm: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=95435

Also ask your DM about potentially picking up an Epic Destiny. From the Wizards' original page (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drfe/20080428) on 3.5 epic destinies, I'd suggest the Blade of Ragnarok, which goes hand-in-hand with Legendary Dreadnought quite well. The Demented One made quite a few other Epic Destinies, so you could check his homebrew for a couple more, as I'm aware that quite a couple of them that are melee oriented.

Them's my 2 coppers. Take as you will.

HamHam
2009-08-13, 07:27 PM
The real reason to go Epic Crusader is because you get those feats FASTER. Bonus epic feats in addition to the ones you get at 21, 24, 27, 30, etc. Perhaps once I've gotten enough of those feats I can go take some cool PrCs?

Except that you can't get into it very quickly anyway. AFAIK, you have to finish out the base class before going into the Epic Progression. Which means that at level 20, you will have at most 12 levels of Crusader if you want to have 7 levels of RKV done, which means taking 8 levels of lame non-Epic Crusade before you can start taking Epic Crusader.

Or, you can take a couple levels of whatever till you hit BAB 23 at level 24, and take Divine Emissary or Legendary Dreadnought which give you crazy things like +20 to an attack a couple of times per day, or +20 to a save a couple of times a day, Greater Planar Ally as a SLA that you don't have to pay for, etc. And they will give you bonus Epic Feats, though not Martial Adept ones, but things like Epic Weapon Focus or Fast Healing or whatever are still pretty good.

And you can still take one of those martial adept epic feats every three levels which is, imho, enough to get the ones that are worth it.

HamHam
2009-08-13, 07:30 PM
Don't forget these feats for mastering the various disciplines, also by Krimm: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=95435

The Devoted Spirit one is the only one that is actually worth it.

Frosty
2009-08-13, 07:34 PM
Except that you can't get into it very quickly anyway. AFAIK, you have to finish out the base class before going into the Epic Progression. Which means that at level 20, you will have at most 12 levels of Crusader if you want to have 7 levels of RKV done, which means taking 8 levels of lame non-Epic Crusade before you can start taking Epic Crusader.

Or, you can take a couple levels of whatever till you hit BAB 23 at level 24, and take Divine Emissary or Legendary Dreadnought which give you crazy things like +20 to an attack a couple of times per day, or +20 to a save a couple of times a day, Greater Planar Ally as a SLA that you don't have to pay for, etc. And they will give you bonus Epic Feats, though not Martial Adept ones, but things like Epic Weapon Focus or Fast Healing or whatever are still pretty good.

And you can still take one of those martial adept epic feats every three levels which is, imho, enough to get the ones that are worth it.

That is true, which is why I've decided to switch from RKV to just plain Crusader for 20 levels, since the dual-stance ability allows me to get an extra swift action to re-activate Immortal Fortitude, and Signature Move allows me to do SoRV as many times as I want. I really only wanted RKV so I can recover my Strike of Righteous Vitality when I really need it, and be able to re-activate my Immortal Fortitude Stance on the same turn.

With these epic feats, I don't really care about RKV anymore, since I won't be casting spells.

HamHam
2009-08-13, 07:44 PM
That is true, which is why I've decided to switch from RKV to just plain Crusader for 20 levels, since the dual-stance ability allows me to get an extra swift action to re-activate Immortal Fortitude, and Signature Move allows me to do SoRV as many times as I want. I really only wanted RKV so I can recover my Strike of Righteous Vitality when I really need it, and be able to re-activate my Immortal Fortitude Stance on the same turn.

With these epic feats, I don't really care about RKV anymore, since I won't be casting spells.

Well then, if you are going Crusader 20 then obviously just doing the Epic progression is golden.

I don't think Strike of Righteous Vitality is worth using Signature Move on however. Do you really think you will need to do it every single turn? You will get it back every three turns anyway.

Signature Move seems better on offensive powers that you know you want to use on every single attack you make.

Cieyrin
2009-08-13, 07:49 PM
Also ask your DM about potentially picking up an Epic Destiny. From the Wizards' original page (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drfe/20080428) on 3.5 epic destinies, I'd suggest the Blade of Ragnarok, which goes hand-in-hand with Legendary Dreadnought quite well. The Demented One made quite a few other Epic Destinies, so you could check his homebrew for a couple more, as I'm aware that quite a couple of them that are melee oriented.

Them's my 2 coppers. Take as you will.

Just a reminder, since i was mid-edit when i got responded to. Blade of Ragnarok still seems to match your build.

HamHam
2009-08-13, 07:53 PM
Although...

If you Signature Move both Strike of Righteous Vitality and Greater Divine Surge, the timing does work, I think, such that you take the Con damage and then immediately heal it from the heal effect of SoRV.

So you can, using the Strike of the Dual Adept, deal 6d8 + Xd8 extra damage where X is the lower of your Initiator Level or your Con score, with no drawback.

My point is, activating multiple strikes simultaniously is broken.

Frosty
2009-08-13, 08:36 PM
Although...

If you Signature Move both Strike of Righteous Vitality and Greater Divine Surge, the timing does work, I think, such that you take the Con damage and then immediately heal it from the heal effect of SoRV.

So you can, using the Strike of the Dual Adept, deal 6d8 + Xd8 extra damage where X is the lower of your Initiator Level or your Con score, with no drawback.

My point is, activating multiple strikes simultaniously is broken.

it's Epic. Broken is subjective. Also, I lack spellcasting of any sort.

And uhh...if I miss, I am screwed since I took so much Con damage.

HamHam
2009-08-13, 08:38 PM
it's Epic. Broken is subjective. Also, I lack spellcasting of any sort.

And uhh...if I miss, I am screwed since I took so much Con damage.

The obvious solution is not to miss.