Motivating evil and selfish characters

[Sploosh]

Hello there,

I am currently playing my third campaign with a few real life friends, two have played the other two with me and the last one was in for a little bit of the last one but now is trying to DM with our help.

He is a drama student and a writer so he should be fine once he gets some experience under his belt but we are having a hard time motivating two of the characters (as the title says).

I am not exactly privy to the entire story since I am merely a player but the jist of it is the hunting down of a powerful mage and battling an invading force of demons. So far though we have had little to encounter and I think the DM is depending on us to work together and go explore it in a sandbox type manner.

I am playing a netural to the core mage while the other two are playing a jack sparrow like rogue/swashbuckler/assassin/nightsong enforcer (muchkin) and a drow cleric who is the epitome of chaotic evil.

The rogue is a greedy, cowardly neutral evil scoundrel and the cleric was pushing kids around last campaign. We're in a town talking to my mage master while the town is slowly losing controll but this only motivates them to stay longer and take advanatage of it.

Not much else has happened and I have been dragging them along through a trail of coins but the DM and I could really use a little help getting their characters to want to stick together and move out as a group for an adventure instead of acting like vultures.

[HamsterOfTheGod]

Talk to your DM and the other players.

Perhaps the other two players would be better at reacting to stuff rather than being the drivers of the story. Maybe they want more action and less mystery.

So instead of having the PCs chasing down clues and explore, the DM could have things happen to the PCs.

If you're parties supposed adversaries are a "powerful mage" and "an invading force of demons", it's not to hard for the DM to come up with lots of encounters that happen to the party wherever and whatever they are doing.

[Thatguyoverther]

Self preservation is a good motivator. Have the mage do something nasty to them like a custom made curse or magical disease.

Alternatively keep hitting them in the face with demons until they do something to stop it.

[Thrawn183]

Evil can love. Evil can have friends they care about. There's nothing wrong with an evil character having an attachment to the world and caring about what happens to it.

My favorite LE character was actually incredibly devoted to his family, basically to the point that it made him evil because he didn't care what happened to anyone else if it would help out his family.

Self-interest, as mentioned above, is also good. Evil might be greedy, but it isn't inherently stupid. If helping other people out helps you... why not? At a certain point, why would an incredibly apathetic person become an adventurer?

[aje8]

Honestly, most evil characters aren't that hard to motivate...... the nobleman offers a reward for the safe return of X person. Evil character doesn't care about X person at all but wants the coin. To prevent overdoing wealth by level this way, just make them fight things without a lot of gold.

Alternativley, threats to the entire world generally force evil characters to take a stand.... problem is that stand may be HELPING said force.

But honestly..... the personal gain motivator works pretty damn well in my experience.

[Salt_Crow]

Heck, if someone wants to play a "lone wolf" or otherwise a type of character that may not get along well with the rest of the party, then it should be the player's (not players') responsibility to figure out an excuse to get along.

In my experience, if a character acts independently for the first time, it's a great RP and it spices up the game. After that, the novelty wears off very quickly.

[Starscream]

Yeah, think of how mercenary even a good aligned party can be. You might not actually demand a reward from the king for saving his daughter, but you'll hint pretty strongly that the more magical goodies you can afford the better the chance that she'll come back.

An evil character would just be a little more direct in expressing his desire for compensation.

And even a chaotic evil drow might have reasons for wanting to stop a horde of demons. Maybe the demon prince they serve is a rival of Lolth, and she has tasked the cleric with preventing him from gaining more power.

Or maybe the character just wants some targets to slaughter without fear of reprisals.

The Giant said something like that about Belkar in the commentaries to one of the OOTS books; that while Belkar is completely chaotic evil, he's not the sort who would laugh maniacally while unleashing an army of demons upon the world. He'd have more fun fighting the demons than sitting back and watching them destroy. His evil is more selfish than cunning and more personal than professional.

[Quietus]

Easy. Have the invading force have a decided totem pole, and want to assimilate their Evil characters into it - at the ground floor, where they'd be lucky to be treated like dirt. Insult them, treat them like dogs, and eventually, they'll get so sick of it, they'll want to take the initiative and show the entire opposing force why they won't take it any more!

This won't work with EVERY group, of course, but perhaps it might work for yours.

[JonestheSpy]

Invading force of demons should = get off your butt before you're Glabrezu chow, no matter what your personal philosophy.

[Set]

In this case, the players sound like they are going out of their way not to get involved, and just using the alignment of their characters as an excuse.

Just go ahead and run the storyline, and have the players who *want* to participate continue getting exp and loot and whatever, the favor of grateful townsfolk, free beer and and offer to bed the blacksmiths daughter, and the players who want to go kick puppies and stealing candy from babies do that sort of thing until they get bored with their lack of leveling or gear acquisition.

If they show an inkling of interest in the plotline, let them find out that following the plotline actually leads to good things. The CE drow type might find out that the really bad guy has a source of evil magic that he wants to get his hands on. Or perhaps they have their own evil drow type working with them, and she's a member of a family that he despises or something. Work whatever backstory they've got into the scenario, or play on their outsider nature to drag them into the action. (The Drow left drow society? Why? Was he thrown out? Will anyone come looking for him, to 'clear the bad name of their house' by bringing back the head of the dude who abandoned his post? Did his former matriarch / arcane mentor / whatever end up dead as a result of typical politicking the very day he vanished, and now *he's* the one the Drow think killed that person, and must be punished for the act? Have the Drow Ranger / Assassin / Head-taker sent to 'bring him back, in six seperate pieces,' do a botched attack on the character, and have to retreat and seek allies among the local Big Bad Evil Guys, so that he won't have to worry about his quarries 'meddling friends and their dumb druid.')

[elliott20]

this is why I tell people to not play characters who are entirely selfish and self-preserving. Those characters are inherently BORING as hell. I mean, c'mon, if trouble comes, they get out of the way, if the tides go one direction, they'll flow with it.

If you ask me, that sounds like the profile of someone who just doesn't go adventuring. These are people who never amount to anything more than petty evil because they have nothing that drives them to excel.

Here, the DM's gonna have to sit with the player and dig. I mean, no matter how selfish a character can be, SOMETHING has got to motivate him. SOMETHING has got to capture his interest.

In this case, don't ask the character what he wants. Ask the player what the player himself, from a totally meta-game standpoint, is interested in doing. Forget the character for a second, and focus on that.

Player wants to see things go boom? work that into his character motivation. Player wants to see a statue of himself? work that into his character motivation.

After all, you might not be playing a hero, but you're still playing someone who has the potential for greatness. (Even if it is great evil at that) People who are not motivated do not become great. Not without some ridiculous cosmic/karmic mojo forcing them into it, at least. And you can only do so many those so many times before it just gets stupid.

[Gnaeus]

Personally, I wouldn't allow evil PCs without a hook that makes them want to work with the rest of the party. We all work for the same powerful boss, or share a common enemy that we all hate and want to destroy, or we are related and are working for a common goal even if we disagree on methods.

The campaign you describe is going to go south very quickly when the Drow realizes that the easiest way to become more powerful is to slaughter his party members, who are only members of lesser races anyway. He should do this after a hard fight when you are both exhausted, or while you are sleeping (or both).

One player in my group loves making antisocial characters who hate adventuring. Don't ask me why. Every time the party went on a quest he would spend 45 minutes trying to talk them out of it, and the entire time he was in a dungeon he would be whining about how dangerous it was and could they please leave. You just have to shake those players a little bit, and explain that the game you plan to run is about doing X, and if they want to spend all their time bullying children or running an inn or doing some other non adventuring thing that the game is not going to stop for their benefit, unless it is something that seems like fun to you and the rest of the party.

[Aharon]

Well, here's a different thought:
At the moment, your group is divided perfectly in the middle. Why not just go over? You play a perfectly neutral mage, so you could work together with them, taking advantage of the chaos in town.

I mean, they seem to be motivated to do something, don't they? In what way do they take advantage of that chaos?
What do you mean with "they behave like vultures"?
I can't imagine them not doing anything at all, they just don't seem to want to do something heroic... which is, in my opinion, fine for antiheroes.

Have their actions have consequences. They behave like vultures? Perhaps a local good organization objects to that, and attacks/hinders them.
They take advantage of the chaos? Perhaps they are treading on the turf of some established group that also wants to benefit from the chaos.

Many posters have made proposals how your DM could involve them despite their reluctance to move the story forward in that direction. If he does it in a way that doesn't look like railroading too overtly, this could work.

[Jackel]

Evil can love. Evil can have friends they care about. There's nothing wrong with an evil character having an attachment to the world and caring about what happens to it.

My favorite LE character was actually incredibly devoted to his family, basically to the point that it made him evil because he didn't care what happened to anyone else if it would help out his family.

Self-interest, as mentioned above, is also good. Evil might be greedy, but it isn't inherently stupid. If helping other people out helps you... why not? At a certain point, why would an incredibly apathetic person become an adventurer?

Listen to the person I'm quoting.

Unless he/she happens to be a ridiculous Card Carrying Villain, an evil character can have almost any motivation a good character does. What really makes an evil character different from a good one is how he goes about accomplishing his goals.

When he has captives who prove to be more trouble than they're worth, he doesn't restrain himself and try to accommodate them, he kills them on the spot. Then he asks if anybody else wants to be stupid enough to try something.

When a loved one is in danger he doesn't care what he has to do, or how many innocents get hurt, he's coming for the kidnappers with a vengeance that will make them soil their pants and wish they never messed with him.

Only psychopaths runs around town killing random villagers. You have to think of evil characters as actual people instead of the boogeyman. If they DO go around town acting like total jerks because they feel entitled to, then they're probably not very wise, and extremely short-sighted.

[Kaihaku]

Have the BBEG...um... Eh. Have the Big Bad Powerful Mage curse them, maim them, embarrass them, or somehow screw them over. Take the overarching plot and make it personal for them. If the only thing they care about is themselves than that's what you have to engage.

Though, as a warning, they may just be players who don't care about the plot regardless. This might just be a fun stress relief for them, a game where they get to run around killing people for the hell of it -- if that's the case you should probably either give up on a greater narrative or tell them to go play Fable.

[BloodyAngel]

Or when in doubt... the most tried and true method of motivating evil characters? Let them be evil. Give them places to exploit... cities ripe for the conquering... foes who are just all to easy to smack around if you have no honor or scruples. Then, just have people react to it.

They smack around children or rob a town blind? Bounty hunters, paladins and enraged people looking for revenge. If they're not subtle about their acts, then they should have PLENTY of things to keep them busy just dodging the people who want them dead. In fact, the drow should be assumed to be evil and harassed most of the time unless they go to great lengths to be as inoffensive as possible. Then, while they're dodging law enforcement and angry adventurers... the REAL evil strikes. It's been festering in the background for a time now, and the group should have heard of this, and seen signs... but now, it comes to a head. The group has ground up their power dealing with the do-gooders, and now the big bad is here to take over. Maybe he'll offer them a job for him, and seek to kill them if they turn it down? (make him a dominating, tyrant if you don't want the group to accept) Maybe he's just moving to crush them because they're strong enough to oppose him... perhaps because of some divinition he performed that said they were a threat to him. In either case, they HAVE to worry about him now.

Now the group has to tangle with the big bad, or they won't survive. Make it clear that this guy HAS to be dealt with. They're evil, so vengence comes naturally. Piss them off so much that they're more than eager to stomp the crap out of him. Tada! Your problem is solved. Without the "good guys" of the setting helping them, they've got their work cut out for them. Maybe the common folk see both sides as equally bad, so it's literally the PC's job to present themselves as the lesser of two evils if they want help. Maybe they don't care.

In any case, my suggestion to get them to follow the plot is this. Give them time to sandbox... build up stuff... and see what they want and do with their characters. Then, have the villain threaten those things that they value. If they just run away and hide, they aren't really adventurers... but if you've given them a bit of time to grow and feel powerful... they should approach the villain with a "who does this punk think he is?". In short... don't try to make them the heroes of the realm. Show them that the heroes of the realm can't cut it, against them or their foe... and have them deal with the evil mage to show who's top villain, once and for all. :smallamused:

[Sploosh]

Thanks a lot for the responses and help! I've shown this to the DM and we both really appreciate all of this. He sounds like he has an idea of how to get them where it hurts now.

If anyone else has any suggestions or words of wisdom that we or anyone else who is trying to motivate an evil or selfish character to do though, please feel free to add to the thread of sage advice. :smallsmile:

[Korivan]

POWER. The best motivator. Especially for munchkins. Just have the DM use NPCs promising rewards of great magical power, money, fame, or whatever. Don't have said rewards actually on the NPC's, evil PC's will just kill NPC's and run. Have the NPC's have knowledge of the items, or locations of the money, but somehow unable to retrieve it themselves. Broken leg, blind, too old, barred, whetever.

But in short, evil is greedy, so temptation should be no problem. But evil is also selfish, so be carefull.

[Delwugor]

Ahhh the classical players ruining a GM's plans. Been both on the giving and the receiving end of that fun.

General approach that I have taken so that I don't look like I'm railroading is that all paths lead to where I want them. Basically I control points A and Z the players control all the rest. So the GM could let the play go on as is and slowly subtly make turn their path to where he wants it, if the divert again then repeat until point Z is reached. This could take a hour, a week or even a month to accomplish but the players do not feel railroaded.

That may be very difficult for a new GM to do. So a quicker resolution is for you as the player (GM shouldn't do this) is to talk to everyone else. Remind them that he is new to GMing and may need a little extra cooperation from them. If that doesn't work then "all paths lead to Z" or some of the good advice that others have posted here.

BTW: Give the players a pat on the back, from the description it sounds like they are doing what they should given their characters. Playing evil characters can be really fun as long as you stay away from the homicidal maniac syndrome.
The GM deserves one as well if he is looking for solutions that don't involve railroading. I know a GM with 15 years experience who still falls back to railroading when issues arise.:smallannoyed:
Finally reach behind you and give yourself a big pat for helping the GM out! In some gaming situations it is easy to just sit back and complain about what others are doing. You are doing something proactive and taking everyone's position into considerations. :smallsmile:

[waterpenguin43]

Bring them to some sort of evil empire (an empire of Hextor will do nicely.) and they all get arrested, then they have to side with good guys to get out and rebel against them, if they don't help rebel, send tonnes of soldiers after them.

[ondonaflash]

I have said it before and I will say it again. "Villains move the story, Heroes are incidental!"

If they refuse to get off their butts and act have the DM arrange a set timeline, wait a certain amount of time then: "You are jerked out of your bed by a horrifying wail, a scream torn from reality itself. You look up at the sky, red storm clouds swirl around a single point miles away, black cracks tear across the sky. A horde of shrieking fiends flies towards you, howling with glee. You see a woman screaming and fleeing in horror, two fiends swoop down upon her and grasp her limbs, tearing them apart. They savor her pain, and bathe in her blood, but you have greater concerns now, for they have noticed you and the swarm is descending. As the inexorable horde reaches you the only thoughts that run through your head are despair, and a wish that you had acted when you had the chance."

TPK, Re-Roll: "You are one of the last struggling remnants of the mortal races. You survive by not being noticed, and killing the quasits that roam the wastes for their meat. You survive however you have to. You live in a tribe of other individuals, young, strong, none of the elderly or children survived the attack, you live without hope, struggling day to day, but now all of that is about to change..."

Apathy leads to suffering inestimable.

[Skorj]

Rich wrote an great article (http://www.giantitp.com/articles/rTKEivnsYuZrh94H1Sn.html)on this, with NPCs in mind, but it works for PCs as well. Basically: inflict these motivations on your players. Make them want revenge. Make them insecure. Make them jealous or resentful. Man I love running evil campaings. :smallamused: