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Cero Oscura
2009-08-13, 11:16 PM
Lord, I hope my DM isn't reading this...

Ok, there's an (at least) Adult Black Dragon in the sewers. We have to get rid of him. As far as we can tell, he's asleep most of the time. He lives in a T-junction, where if the junction looked like this: * T * , The dragon is in the bottom stem, with his tail sticking a little out into the crosspiece on top. He is curled in such a way that his face is directed that way also.

He should have no idea that we're coming. We kinda scryed him, but not really. Long story.

Our party is very unoptimized. We're fairly casual players. It consists of a lvl 9 grappling, disarming Justiciar (me, not very useful here, just got to where I can drain a point of STR with each hit. Whoopee.), a low level Invisible blade (like 4d6 sneak attack, no free action feint), a lvl 7 Favored Soul/Sorcerer (he can cast up to 2nd level spells in each, I think), and a lvl 7 Swordsage using Setting Sun and Shadow Hand disciplines (the best damager of the party).

As for spells, I have next to no idea what the sorcerer can cast. I've seen...magic missle. And create water. That help?

So, I want to jump this thing, basically. We have next to no weird magical items that could be useful, although I can choose to make a roll a nat 20 once per day. We do, however, have about 30000 gp kicking around.

We may be expected to diplomacy our way past him, but the way this campaign has gone (it seems like everything ends HORRIBLY BADLY), I want a backup plan.

What would be your suggested plan of attack?

Thatguyoverther
2009-08-13, 11:24 PM
Buy some siege weapons. If you going to try a sneak attack you might as well use a balista to do it.

Or if your supposed to try diplomacy, a few thousand gold pieces might convince the dragon to let you live. I recommend not having the money on you, so it can't just kill you to get the money.

Hire 10,000 mooks for a day at 3 gp each.

Mando Knight
2009-08-13, 11:36 PM
Do not fight it at all. Adult Blacks have SR 18. A Favored Soul/Sorcerer with only 2nd-level spells in each class doesn't have nearly high enough of a caster level to beat it. It also casts like a 3rd-level sorcerer, so your arcanist is at no advantage here. It can also cast darkness three times per day, so unless you're packing a good source of 2nd-level or higher light spells, you'll have to deal with the 20% miss chance.

You're the highest level character in the group, but your tactics are almost completely useless, since the dragon has higher grapple check than you and has natural weapons. The swordsage might be able to do something, but unless he's got a nifty persistent attack bonus or touch attack from somewhere, don't expect him to be able to scratch the beastie.

Fortunately, blacks are one of the weaker dragon species. Their breath weapon is a line attack, which doesn't do it much good in the described area, and it has d4 damage dice... not much.

Jade_Tarem
2009-08-14, 12:08 AM
Go outside the box:

Try to figure out a way to collapse the sewers on him.

Try to provoke/tempt him into leaving, and then walk past his spot.

Go find some scrolls of Hide from Dragons and use those to sneak by.

Find out where the absurdly spacious sewer's water control mechanisms are, and use those to create a wave that will carry the party past the dragon fast enough that he can't do anything about it.

Let a group of higher level adventurers know that there's a dragon sitting in the sewers waiting to die and let them kill it for the treasure and xp.

Go on a series of quests to gain fame and fortune, then come back and use your influence institute a holiday called "pour flammable fluids down the drain day" - wait for the end of the day, toss a match down into the sewers, and see if that fixes your dragon problem.

If none of that works, ask your DM what you're supposed to do, because if none of that worked, you're either supposed to fight him (suicide), or try to talk your way past him (not necessarily suicide, but you may end up losing more than gold), and both of those options lead to immediate death if you do them wrong.

Jothki
2009-08-14, 01:22 AM
Try to figure out a way to collapse the sewers on him.

Yeah, just how deep are the sewers? If they're close to street level, the easiest way would probably be to come in directly from above, collapsing the roof and hopefully blocking the side tunnels as well.

Do you just need it gone from the city? If you can severely damage its lair, or even better, expose its lair to the open sky, you can probably get to leave without directly needing to fight it.

What the heck is a dragon doing in sewers anyway? Anything that I can think of would either require perfect stealth or not be worth the effort.

Eldan
2009-08-14, 02:05 AM
Buy a huge sized adamantium tower shield and some sovereign glue and close off that end of the T-junction? :smallwink:

daggaz
2009-08-14, 07:13 AM
Buy a huge sized adamantium tower shield and some sovereign glue and close off that end of the T-junction? :smallwink:

This, simply because


This is a maximum security prison, and you have no weapons of any kind?

We have some carving knives in the abattoir, a few more in the mess hall. Some fire axes scattered about the place - nothing terribly formidable.

That's all?

We're on the honor system.

Then we're ****ed. of this.

Kaihaku
2009-08-14, 08:41 AM
It sounds like you'd have more luck circumventing the dragon than facing it directly -- which you definitely have the resources to do, even if its by digging through someone's basement rather than magic.

But if you are going to face the dragon...

We have next to no weird magical items that could be useful, although I can choose to make a roll a nat 20 once per day.

That natural 20 once a day could prove extremely handy in this encounter...but the question is will you need it for whatever is beyond the dragon? Can you afford to blow a ton of resources on this or do you need to be frugal?

Potions of Resist Energy(Acid) 10 are 300 gp, Resist Energy(Acid) 20 are 700 gp, and Resist Energy(Acid) 30 are 1,100 gp. If it does come to a fight that would be a good investment. It would be cheaper if your favored soul/sorcerer could cast Resist Energy but since that's an unknown...

Don't forget to bolster your saves vs. fear. The last thing you want is half of your party running away.

In a fight the dragon's mobility is limited. You can take advantage of this by picking up some help -- hire some minions, buy some summoning scrolls, or, if you can, summon up something yourselves. Flanking will help.

Haste would also help -- keep in mind that, if it is an adult, you only have to hit the dragon 23 times to win. If you can get an extra attack and boost up your to hit enough you could, actually, be more useful here than the Swordsage. Check to see if anyone else in the group could speed up the process by draining some additional strength.

Of course, there's also social skills... Which is where that natural 20 could be really useful. Just boost up your Charisma beforehand.

Start up by offering the dragon some coins for right of passage (don't bring all your money with you), let him know that you're just some small fries, direct him towards some rich noble -- preferably an enemy of yours, and then natural 20 a Diplomacy. Since he should be starting at Unfriendly or Indifferent that should get him into the "maybe I can use them later so I won't kill them...for now" mindset.

Another option would be to natural 20 an Intimidate. The Dragon would probably hate you for it and try to hunt you down later...but if successful you got it listening to you for the time being. Introduce yourselves as dragon slayers, lay down the law, and then hit with the Intimidate. :smallwink:

Those are a few ideas anyway.

Another_Poet
2009-08-14, 10:10 AM
I agree with the adamantium sewer plug.

Beyond that, start investing your gold. Some scrolls would help a lot here. As would arrows of dragon slaying.

Try to figure out of there is any kind of alchemical or poisonous gas you can make/buy. If you seal off the sewer and gas him, you could avoid a fight.

Alternately, if you really are going to invest in sovereign glue, seal off all three ends of the T-junction with the adamantium plugs and wait for it to suffocate. Use this in conjunction with a scroll of Antimagic field (1650 gp) to make sure it doesn't use its spells or a teleport item to get out.

ap

Cero Oscura
2009-08-14, 11:51 AM
Well, in theory, we're supposed to get down the tunnel he's in, so collapsing it may not work. Plus, this is the Sewer Demiplane for the city, so I can't collapse the street in the city, 'cause the sewer isn't under there.

As for the nat 20, I already used that today to see the dragon's tail through a brief scry. I'm glad I did, other wise it would have been up there for "Worst Surprise Ever".

I have no idea why he's in the sewer, but it keeps in flavor with the town. This place is messed up. Pretty cool, but really screwy as well.

This campaign's been rough, and I'd like for this encounter to go better. People keep getting arrested, killed, tripping alarms, our flyer flew into a cloud of poisonous acid that hangs over the city, we've been grappled by iron golems, grappled by oozes. I personally have been blown up, as in with dynamite, twice. Keep in mind the DM isn't just throwing huge CRs at us. We keep screwing up and attracting these things.

Thanks for your help, guys. You've given me some good ideas. Maybe some scrolls of Ray of Enfeeblement. Would that wake him up when they hit? I've had poor luck in the past finding agreeable people to help me on forums, so this is a refreshing change. :smallsmile:

Jade_Tarem
2009-08-14, 12:16 PM
Ray of Enfeeblement scrolls will probably bounce off his SR. Depending on the DM ruling, you'll be casting it at at CL 4, 3, or 1, giving you a 65-80% chance of failure - and messing it up will just make him mad. I would avoid casting anything *at* him, as a matter of fact.

You're probably best off going with a scroll of Wall of Force, if you're looking for the magical solution - he can huff and puff all he wants, but he can't take it down physically, and I don't think he has the casting chops to break it. Other people's suggestions are alright too. The adamantine plug will be a bit on the pricey side, though.

Kaihaku
2009-08-14, 07:14 PM
Well, in theory, we're supposed to get down the tunnel he's in, so collapsing it may not work. Plus, this is the Sewer Demiplane for the city, so I can't collapse the street in the city, 'cause the sewer isn't under there.

Ah... That makes sense...


As for the nat 20, I already used that today to see the dragon's tail through a brief scry. I'm glad I did, other wise it would have been up there for "Worst Surprise Ever".

Nods.


I have no idea why he's in the sewer, but it keeps in flavor with the town. This place is messed up. Pretty cool, but really screwy as well.

This campaign's been rough, and I'd like for this encounter to go better. People keep getting arrested, killed, tripping alarms, our flyer flew into a cloud of poisonous acid that hangs over the city, we've been grappled by iron golems, grappled by oozes. I personally have been blown up, as in with dynamite, twice. Keep in mind the DM isn't just throwing huge CRs at us. We keep screwing up and attracting these things.

Sounds like a fun campaign to me. :smallsmile: I envy you it, I tend to end up with DMs who railroad the group out of failure...drives me nuts. I'd much rather face the consequences of my actions, makes the successes a lot more meaningful.

Hmmm...

You could also try something wacky like freezing the water -- it's not in the rules but depending on your DM you might be able to trap the dragon in place.

Technically, since this is a demiplane, does the dragon have the extraplanar subtype? Sigh, but unfortunately dismissal is subject to spell resistance.

You could also try a diversion, send something fast down the wrong fork than while the dragon goes to check it out slip down the other way. A summoned flyer might work well for this.


You're probably best off going with a scroll of Wall of Force, if you're looking for the magical solution - he can huff and puff all he wants, but he can't take it down physically, and I don't think he has the casting chops to break it.

The only problem with a Wall of Force is the duration... It won't last much longer than a minute and then the group has an angry black dragon on their tails. Of course, if they put up a few more barriers to slow it down that might work or maybe they could load up on Expeditious Retreats to make a run for it -- if it can't fly then they should be able to match its 60 feet land move speed, unless it does have enough room to fly.

Jade_Tarem
2009-08-14, 08:27 PM
The only problem with a Wall of Force is the duration... It won't last much longer than a minute and then the group has an angry black dragon on their tails. Of course, if they put up a few more barriers to slow it down that might work or maybe they could load up on Expeditious Retreats to make a run for it -- if it can't fly then they should be able to match its 60 feet land move speed, unless it does have enough room to fly.

Good point. However, if they're willing to spring for Forcecage instead, that would fix this problem. It's more expensive and more error-prone, but they should be able to keep him where he is for hours.

Voice of Reason
2009-08-14, 09:11 PM
Well, you have several good options laid out before you. The one I would probably suggest would be a scroll of Hide from Dragons (level 7 sorc/wiz) that would hide all your party members from the dragons sensibilities. Follow it up with something like dimesion door or gaseous cloud to pop behind the dragon without touching it, and you're in the clear (just be sure to bring a way back).

If you're really looking to be evil though, go purchase a Candle of Invocation (any alignment will do; try to get CE first, followed by LG, but NG, CG, or CN will do in a pinch). This will run you 8,400. It's pricey, so be sure you realllly want to make your DM angry before you use it. Other effects aside, it allows you to cast a Gate spell at 17th level to summon a creature whose alignment matches the candle.

To be even safer, purchase a scroll of Wall of Force and give it to the sorcerer. Sadly, there's another 1,500g or so.

Now, walk up to the dragon and attempt to negotiate with it. Best course of action would be the Intimidate check, with your nat. 20 if you can manage. If the dragon leaves, mission accomplished. If not, the worst that will happen is the dragon gets one round on you if it wins initiative. Make sure you delay your turn to immediately after the sorcerer.

Have him activate his Wall of Force in front of the dragon, blocking you from being attacked. Now, light the candle of invocation and activate it. Summon a planar dragon whose alignment matches the candle's of your choice behind the Black Dragon. I'd recomend a CE candle for a Shadow Dragon.

Since the spell is 17th level, you can control the creature summoned for 17 rounds with up to 34 hit die. So, let's see how your adult black dragon stands up to the Wyrm shadow dragon you've just summoned, once it takes the 6 negative levels the Shadow Dragon's breath weapon imposes. Oh, and since you're in "illumination other than full daylight," the shadow dragon gains total concealment (50% miss chance on top of it's AC of 39).

That puts your black dragon between a wall and a hard place (in this case, an invisible Wyrm). With nowhere to go, simply stand back and watch your summoned Shadow Dragon defeat the Black for you (since dragons cast as sorcerers, a CL of 3 means it doesn't even have second-level spells. Even assuming that it turns out to be a dragon high enough in level to cast a proper escape spell, like dimension door, keep in mind that the Shadow Dragon will be imposing 7 negative [caster] levels via it's breath weapon unless the Black suceeds a DC 37 fort save, in which case it still takes 3 negative levels.) If it can't manage to kill the Black Dragon in 17 rounds, then your DM is railroading you :smallamused:

It's pricey, yes, but for roughly 10,000 gold, you've completely bypassed this [at least] CR 11 challenge.

P.S. Dragons usually have large treasure hoards (I.E., 3x standard treasure). If you're feeling especially devious, you could tell the Shadow Dragon to knock out instead of kill the Black; a +30 to hit with the nonlethal penalty will still hit even a mature adult black dragon 95% of the time.

Likewise, the negative levels imposed by the Shadow Dragon take a DC 37 fort save to remove after their 1-hour grace period. Meaning that even a mature adult black dragon would have a 95% chance to be stuck with each negative level. A 22-hit die mature black dragon is significantly less of a threat when it's missing 21 of those hit die...permanantly (3 uses of the shadow dragon's breath weapon would require a maximum of 8-9 rounds to apply).

So, if you were to knock out the dragon with several hundred nonlethal damage, and order the Shadow Dragon to apply 21 negative levels (3 uses of it's breath weapon) before dismissing it, you now have a very pliable dragon to intimidate. Wake it up via Favored Soul healing; don't worry, it has a -21 penalty to all attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and caster levels in additional to having lost all but a handful of it's hit points.

Being the helpful adventurers you are, kindly point out to the dragon that you offered to settle this affair peacefully, and the dragon refused, requiring you to use force. Kindly point out to the dragon that it has less than an hour to remove those negative levels, or it's stuck with them for the rest of it's life (barring high-level magic, which the dragon itself can't cast, because it has no effective caster level anymore). Show the dragon that your Favored Soul has a scroll of restoration (700g). Kindly remind the dragon that, now that it's got so many negative levels, it cannot use the scroll itself, it needs someone like, say, your favored soul to cast it.

Explain to the dragon that you've had to put a lot of money into this venture. About 11,000g to be precise. I'm certain the dragon will be happy to reimburse you, considering that the alternative is to remain about as powerful as a kitten for several years (remember, the dragon has less than an hour to fix this, and in it's current state, you could easily knock the dragon out again and just let that hour walk by). Being good adventurers, of course, be sure to fulfill your end of the bargain, and give the unfortunate dragon it's levels back. If it tries to double-cross you, it only has a few hit points with which to do so, at which point you can feel justified in killing it outright if you haven't already.

Egads, sorry for the wall of text there. In reality, It's probably a bit too risky/cheesy to try anything below the "P.S.," but I've got to say that postulating it has been some of the most fun with 3.5 DnD I've had in a long time :smallbiggrin:

Leewei
2009-08-14, 09:24 PM
Spend the money on medium duration buffs. Find an arcane or divine caster NPC to hit the party with mass resist energy (acid). Likewise, get someone to cast stoneskin on your group -- at least the main combatants.

Score potions of bull's strength, bear's endurance, cat's grace, heroism and owl's wisdom. Get an Everburning Torch to negate the darkness. Buy a scroll of haste for your sorcerer to cast on the group. Cast at 5th level, there should be little or no chance for spell failure.

Dust
2009-08-15, 03:53 AM
Voice of Reason, you are my absolute hero.

Voice of Reason
2009-08-15, 11:33 AM
:smallbiggrin:

My second post ever on the GitP forums, and my first in the Roleplaying Games forum, and I've already got praise!

P.P.S, There are some good Anti-Dragon spells available in the Draconomicon as well that would work wonders if you intend to "fight fair." Suppress Breath weapon takes out the breath weapon (better to use resist acid probably though), Antidragon Aura provides wonderful luck bonuses against dragons, Lower Spell resistance makes the dragon's spell resistance next to nothing, and Scale Weakening removes much of it's natural armor.