Spoiler Musings

[LightningNinja]

After the discussion in 669 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0669.html), the fiends' comments about how easy it would be to kill more good dragons than there ever were black dragons, and the implications of the recent strip regarding the (potential) swallowing intact of large portions of the old Prime Material plane, it seems like the Upper Planes are going to get snarl'd. The fact that the Snarl's cage is an inescapable demiplane could make return impossible for anyone who plane-shifted there to check on the Upper Planes, which would address Roy's suggestion and create widespread uncertainty on the Prime Material regarding the afterlife. I think the ultimate direction of OotS as a series could be to bring peace to the D&D world by unmaking the afterlife system. This of course raises the question of whether there is currently peace on the Snarl-planet, since it (presumably) lacks such a system. I am also curious as to whether wishes/miracles/reality revisions can penetrate a planar prison. It would be a particularly poignant ending to have the two worlds permanently separated while some people were on one side and some on the other, with e.g. MitD unable to bridge the gap. If one side had an afterlife and one did not, there would be much dramatic potential for precisely *who* ends up on each side.

[Optimystik]

The main problem in OotS isn't that mortals are aware of the afterlife, it's that their gods are childish, uncooperative and shortsighted. The boldness of the mortal races is nothing compared to that.

My prediction:
The Snarl will be resolved from its current pure chaos state, into becoming an overdeity (like Ao) that can keep all the children in line. Then we'll have no sentient races getting shafted, no one alignment or sets of alignments achieving dominance, and most importantly, no new Snarls being formed.

[Xesirin]

See, regarding the Fiends, I'm wondering how successful they will ultimately be. I don't think they know how things have changed regarding the snarl, and it's distinctly possible (but slim) that the Snarl isn't a purely destructive force anymore.

I make this solely on the idea that the Snarl consolidated itself into a planet, and that the planet in the rift IS the Snarl.

[Kish]

which would address Roy's suggestion and create widespread uncertainty on the Prime Material regarding the afterlife. I think the ultimate direction of OotS as a series could be to bring peace to the D&D world by unmaking the afterlife system.
Roy's "suggestion" was a joke about our world. Is a world where people aren't granted daily spells by the gods and no one can Plane Shift to the afterlife and back a world without war? We know the answer is "no." Is it unrealistic? Welll... Is it like not knowing for sure if there are trees, or stars, or gods? Certainly it's like not knowing for sure if there are Skill Points. Even ignoring that this post hinges on treating a big fourth-wall-breaking joke with seriousness more appropriate for Redcloak torturing O-Chul, you would have lost me at equating the latest group of second-string villains' plans with the inevitable future. "It seems like the Upper Planes are going to get snarl'd"? It seems to me that the entire nature of the Snarl is now up for grabs.

[Tijne]

... Certainly it's like not knowing for sure if there are Skill Points...

Sometimes when I'm trying to learn or do an action in real life; out of absolutely no where I just "get it".
I then think to myself; "I must have just spent a skill point!".



They do exist, I tell you, they do!! @_@

[EmperorSarda]

As far as the fiends go, from what we know, they only know what Nale told Sabine that she told them. They know that Xykon and the goblin are after the Snarl, but they probably don't know about the rituals going on.

At best they can take V. over to replace Xykon in the ritual process.

And that is assuming that the Snarl is super destructive.

[David Argall]

As far as the fiends go, from what we know, they only know what Nale told Sabine that she told them. They know that Xykon and the goblin are after the Snarl, but they probably don't know about the rituals going on.

At best they can take V. over to replace Xykon in the ritual process.

And that is assuming that the Snarl is super destructive.

I would expect they just assume that they can figure out a ritual to take control of any object build by mere mortals. Possibly they have already looked at the gate and figured out a ritual, not noticing that the ritual does not give them the control they actually want. [Xykon and Redcloak wouldn't be doing a defective ritual, would they? That makes no sense. So obviously we don't need to check their work. It's too much bother. Obviously we will get control when our puppet does the ritual.]

[Herald Alberich]

At best they can take V. over to replace Xykon in the ritual process.

That wouldn't work; the rituals take a few weeks (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0416.html) and the fiends only get V for about 45 minutes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0667.html).

[David Argall]

That wouldn't work; the rituals take a few weeks (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0416.html) and the fiends only get V for about 45 minutes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0667.html).

Xykon thinks the ritual takes weeks. However, it would seem he gets all information on the subject from Redcloak, who has reason to exaggerate the time. So telling Xykon the ritual is a very long one means he is kept busy until far too late when he realizes he has been had.

An alternate idea is that V will only be used as protection for the LG, which will do the actual ritual. V blasts the party once it has dealt with the lich, and then the coast is clear for the tools to get to work.

[Darkroot]

Xykon thinks the ritual takes weeks. However, it would seem he gets all information on the subject from Redcloak, who has reason to exaggerate the time. So telling Xykon the ritual is a very long one means he is kept busy until far too late when he realizes he has been had.


Thing is, Redcloak WANTS the ritual finished as soon as possible - if it takes under 45 minutes, it'd have been done back in the first dungeon (Dokuran? I can't spell, sorry).

Then again... does it need to be the same caster for the whole ritual? Could the heroes arrive through the hobgoblin mook army "just in time", so the fiends can get V to hijack it? (Bad for Xykon, indifferent for Redcloak - a cast is a cast!)

[Herald Alberich]

Then again... does it need to be the same caster for the whole ritual? Could the heroes arrive through the hobgoblin mook army "just in time", so the fiends can get V to hijack it? (Bad for Xykon, indifferent for Redcloak - a cast is a cast!)

I thought about that, but Xykon wouldn't go quietly, and a big fight scene in the middle of the ritual might well ruin it - don't spells with long casting times require uninterrupted concentration?

[Kish]

Thing is, Redcloak WANTS the ritual finished as soon as possible - if it takes under 45 minutes, it'd have been done back in the first dungeon (Dokuran? I can't spell, sorry).

It would not have. They were never able to open the gate in the Dungeon of Dorukan, remember? Dorukan's protection spell kept zapping their goblins and, ultimately, Xykon.

[David Argall]

Thing is, Redcloak WANTS the ritual finished as soon as possible

Redcloak is eager, but not that eager. He's willing to delay for a year in Azure City to get the new hobgoblin nation going. [He was also hoping to find information about the next gate, but he lost hope of that long ago.] So he is not too concerned about the difference between an hour and a month.
On the other hand, There is a real bad chance that Xykon will be quite upset when the ritual is complete, and being near an upset Xykon is a tad bad for your health. So telling the lich the ritual will take a real long time, and that it includes a bathroom break just before he will learn the truth can put him well out of spell range when he finds out he has been played for a sucker.