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View Full Version : Adjust the power curve to the party equipment



Ashtagon
2009-08-14, 02:28 AM
There seems to have been a concept, conceived during 3e and formalised in 4e, that characters should have a certain amount of magic equipment related to their level, almost on a formula. The assumption is that monster challenges are designed on the assumption that characters of a certain level will have a certain amount of gear. This is why scenarios that strip the party of their gear are so deadly.

A side effect of this has been, in some cases, near-obsession with regulating the magic item drops, and providing magic shops. This is fine for certain styles of play, but for others, especially "low-magic" campaigns, it breaks suspension of disbelief if you keep to the power curve, or breaks game balance if you don't.

Rather than adjusting the party equipment to match that power curve, it just occurred to me that you could adjust things in reverse. The power curve assumes the party has a certain amount of attack/armour/whatnot bonuses. Rather than give those pluses to the party, why not give them (in reverse) to their opponents?

The idea:

Every so often (after a level-up or a major treasure haul - basically, about as often as you'd check in a regular game), compare the party's actual average equipment wealth with the expected amount from the wealth-by-level tables. For every two levels difference, the NPCs and monsters get a +1 (or -1, as appropriate) adjustment to attack rolls, armour class, caster levels, and skill checks.

Can anyone see any obvious flaws in this idea?

DracoDei
2009-08-14, 02:34 AM
I might adjust CR of encounters instead, but for XP (and maybe treasure) purposes, treat them as encounters of the original CR. This is less math to keep track of.

Dragon Elite
2009-08-14, 10:04 AM
I'll probably use it. Sounds good; no obvious flaws.

Kaihaku
2009-08-14, 07:43 PM
The thing is that wealth doesn't just provide static bonuses it also grants new abilities and new options. The party barbarian can now fly, suddenly a harpy isn't such a challenge. I think I'd agree with DracoDei, mostly, unless you widened it a bit to give them random one shot bonuses too -- i.e. the ogre comes at them with mirror image up.

Talothorn
2009-08-14, 11:50 PM
I ran a long running, low magic campaign (almost a no magic campaign, but monsters still had spells and spell like abilities) and to compensate for the players lack of spells or magic items, I tweaked the feats. Instead of a feat every 3 levels, I gave players (and NPC villians and non-magic using monsters, of course) one every level. it worked out surprisingly well. Magic using monsters were still terrifying (as was the goal) but the players had a much better chance. They also had a lot more freedom and options to customize their characters, and since it was an across the board adjustment, it didn't unballance the game (which I was afraid it might when I first planned it out.)

Ashtagon
2009-08-15, 01:33 AM
@Talathorn

That works well if everything is carefully planned from the start, and you constantly keep a close eye on things. But if disaster strikes the party and they get stripped of their gear, the monsters get this "dynamic penalty" tagged on to them. Alternatively, if they kill a dragon and are suddenly awash with magic gear, the monsters get a "dynamic bonus". Basically, this system constantly adjusts itself to the party's wealth, no matter how large.

@Kaihaku

That harpy was never a problem. It could only ever attack by swooping in to melee range anyway, so any time it could attack, the barbarian could have anyway. Only now, because the party presumably has less magical gear, it will get a penalty on all its rolls.

Knaight
2009-08-15, 01:59 AM
Or the harpy could kill everyone with flying abilities and drop rocks. Flight is a huge advantage, and magic helps balance things out. Barbarians do get ranged weapons, so it evens out, but the less measurable things in magic make balancing difficult. Its worth it though.

Kaihaku
2009-08-15, 02:02 AM
@Kaihaku

That harpy was never a problem. It could only ever attack by swooping in to melee range anyway, so any time it could attack, the barbarian could have anyway.

Flyby Attack. Readied actions only go so far. The harpy wouldn't be attacking the barbarian, it would be dive bombing the measliest member of the group while leaving the barbarian idling or taking pot-shots with a bow.


Only now, because the party presumably has less magical gear, it will get a penalty on all its rolls.

I thought the point was to balance out any deviation in WBL? This works well enough for weakening monsters for a party that is low on magical gear but my point is that a party high on magical gear gains not just static modifiers but also a wide range of additional encounter ruining options.

Ashtagon
2009-08-15, 02:52 AM
Flyby Attack. Readied actions only go so far. The harpy wouldn't be attacking the barbarian, it would be dive bombing the measliest member of the group while leaving the barbarian idling or taking pot-shots with a bow.

I thought the point was to balance out any deviation in WBL? This works well enough for weakening monsters for a party that is low on magical gear but my point is that a party high on magical gear gains not just static modifiers but also a wide range of additional encounter ruining options.

Realistically, nothing can balance out a true "monty haul" campaign. A 1st level character with a ring of unlimited wishes is going to trounce anything, if played smartly. This system makes a token effort, but ultimately it's down to how smartly the monsters are played and what style of game everyone wants.

Same goes for the harpy vs under-equipped party. Harpy dive-bombing the weakest PC works find, if the PCs are just standing out in the open and not armed with any missile weapons. This scenario assumes both a nasty DM for setting that terrain, and a dumb party who not only doesn't look for cover, but didn't bother with bare essentials of equipment when entering an area which can reasonably be expected to offer a good advantage for people using ranged weapons. It's meant to balance difficulty. Stupidity and poor planning can't be balanced out by anything.

Kaihaku
2009-08-15, 04:22 AM
Same goes for the harpy vs under-equipped party. Harpy dive-bombing the weakest PC works find, if the PCs are just standing out in the open and not armed with any missile weapons.

Again, the example was a harpy vs. an over-equipped party as opposed to a harpy vs. a WBL party.

It's another balance issue altogether but missile weapons aren't as strong as they "should" be in my opinion, which is one of the reasons that flying opponents are so powerful.


This scenario assumes both a nasty DM for setting that terrain, and a dumb party who not only doesn't look for cover, but didn't bother with bare essentials of equipment when entering an area which can reasonably be expected to offer a good advantage for people using ranged weapons.

Harpies are mediocre monsters, their ability to fly is their only major advantage over ground-based PCs. Once PCs get the ability to fly that advantage is negated and their CR, in my opinion, plummets. Especially if you consider that their standard environment is a swamp, once PCs can ignore that difficult terrain as easily the harpies, the birds got nothing. Flight is their only advantage and a higher WBL can easily negate that...adding a static bonus might make them a bit tougher but they won't be a challenge in the same way again.

Of course a smart grounded party is going to scramble for cover and pull out their secondary ranged weapons (it would be a great encounter for a ranged specialist if there happened to be one) but the harpies' ability to fly should make most encounters of that sort more difficult overall. I don't think using a monster's ability the way it was designed to be used makes for a nasty DM.

There are a quite few one-ability wonders in the Monster Manual and the right magical items can negate most of the challenge they provided.


It's meant to balance difficulty. Stupidity and poor planning can't be balanced out by anything.

A flying opponent is a far more difficult encounter for a grounded party than for a party that can fly. Magical items can grant the ability to fly (or teleport, or scry, or build a fortress in a single day, etc), that affects difficulty. Don't get me wrong, I think that your houserule is a good start...but if I were using it I'd augment encounters further to keep things interesting for the group.