PDA

View Full Version : Caster that can be the Party Tank



oxinabox
2009-08-14, 06:42 AM
Nominations for casters to be a Party tank.
Able to take Damage, Block Passages, provide a meat sheild for the solft little elven wizards to cast behind.


NOTE: Excluding druids
Druids are: I turn in to a Dire Bear, How do you like that?!

I would exclude clerics, except that my Warlock (follows) is better at tanking than any cleric is can think of of the top of my head.


I Nominate:
Warlock:

With Feats:
Medium Armour proficiency
Battle Caster (increase the Armour level you can ignore Arcane spell failure from)

Combat Casting and Skill Focus Concentration: if you find you keep getting hit at when failing to cast defenively.
Fey Heritage Feats, esp Fey Skin, for more Caster Goodies and improved DR/cold Iron

Point Blank Shot: (as the version from C.Arc)

Equipt:
Mithiel Full Plate (+8 AC + 3dex mod to AC (which is pretty close to the highest dex mod a warlock might have)

Summery of benefits:
DR X/cold Iron (which goes nicely with decent HP, and since a warlock uses CON for Concentration, and has d6 HD, shouldn't be extremely low)
Resistance 5 (or 10 at higher lvls) to two times of energy (stacks nicely with DR don't it?)
Fast Healing. (free up the Cleric, live without the cleric)


What Builds would you use to replace the Tank?

Saph
2009-08-14, 06:50 AM
The traditional one is an Abjurant Champion gish. Far better AC than any normal melee class, and your choice of buff spells to enhance your tanking abilities. Jade Phoenix Mage works nicely too.

Cyclocone
2009-08-14, 07:01 AM
No 'zillas?

Well then, i nominate venerable Gray Elf Wizard with Faerie Mysteries Initiate.

Benefits:
Has the hitpoints of a barbarian and 9th level casting for stuff like polymorph, bite of the werebear, veil of undeath, ironguard, greater blink, greater mirror image, heroics, overland flight, greater dimension door, spell turning, energy immunity +tons of stuff i'm forgetting.


...oh hell, just about any Wizard could do it really:smalleek:

The Dark Fiddler
2009-08-14, 07:08 AM
Our Cleric rolled pretty well on his HP, and at level 3 has only 1 less hp than the level 4 Barbarian. Also has a good AC.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-08-14, 07:28 AM
Dragonfire Adept, hands down. Wear full plate and use a tower shield, nonproficiency doesn't matter since you never have to make an attack roll. Pick all day buffs for your invocations, such as Endure Exposure for everyone in your party. They get a natural armor bonus as they gain levels, d8 HP, and even DR/Magic fairly early. Make it a Mineral Warrior (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003e) for even more tankiness.

Get Entangling Exhalation and spam that debuff! Even if they make the save they'll still take half damage and get entangled, suffering penalties to attacks, Dex and thus AC, Reflex saves, and Finesse/ranged attacks, and moves at half speed and can't run or charge. They'd be risking AoOs if they try to move to the softer characters, plus they'd probably have to spend an entire round moving just to get to them, so they're more likely to focus on the guy who's barking fire at them.

Put max ranks in Intimidate, get Never Outnumbered, and pick up Imperious Command at level 6, so once per encounter you'll have an AoE Cower effect. You could even go something like Dragonfire Adept 2/ (Zhentarim) Fighter 9+/ whatever so you can demoralize as a swift action every round, though opponents such as outsiders with energy resistances across the board will just ignore your entangle cheese. You could instead dip two levels into Wolf Totem Barbarian and get Knock-Down and Combat Reflexes, using medium armor and a heavy shield that you'd be proficient with. With that you could go back into DFA to boost your breath damage and be a credible melee threat, probably get Extra Rage and maybe even Intimidating Rage if you take Imperious Command.


A Dragonborn of Bahamut (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060105b&page=1) with the Heart aspect, Entangling Exhalation, and Recover Breath can spam an entangle every few rounds and do basically the same thing regardless of what classes you use. Start with a Water Halfling or Orc (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm#racesOfWater) and it keeps the ability score adjustments and swim speed, add on Mineral Warrior after Dragonborn and you end up with the ultimate tanking race. Make it a Crusader, if that can be considered a caster, and use your breath weapon whenever you don't get a strike you'd want to use or if you don't need to use Stone Power to absorb some delayed damage. That ends up being and unkillable damage sponge who can self-heal, who's better equipped to force opponents to focus on him than nearly every other tanking build.

Chineselegolas
2009-08-14, 07:45 AM
Sorcerer.
No seriously, the spell shield alternate class feature to give up spell slots to prevent damage. Then there is one of the wings spells that prevents all damage from the first attack on him and grants him cover for the rest of the round.

Prime32
2009-08-14, 08:20 AM
Warforged Psion (shaper) sharing vigor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/vigor.htm) with his psicrystal, then using share pain (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/sharePain.htm) with it. Psionic repair damage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psionicRepairDamage.htm) is a potent self-heal (and can, too, be shared with your psicrystal).

Consider slapping on the dragonborn template for more Con (and wings!). Also consider Adamantine Body (psionics don't have somatic components).


If you want to be good in melee as well, go for a "big guy is with me" build - take the Improved Psicrystal feat repeatedly until your psicrystal has a ton of HD, feats and BAB, then use metamorphosis (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/metamorphosis.htm) to turn it into some kind of golem.

PId6
2009-08-14, 08:39 AM
Wizard, Shapechange, win.

thorgrim29
2009-08-14, 08:48 AM
Duskblade?

Flickerdart
2009-08-14, 08:48 AM
Why do casters need to be the party tank when they can make party tanks?

Epinephrine
2009-08-14, 08:49 AM
Binders can make pretty solid tanks.
With a vestige bound they can select Pact augmentations, gaining DR/- or AC, or HP.
Defensively, you can gain DR from some vestiges, as well as resistances and immunities, heavy fortification, fast healing, temp HP, you name it pretty much. Just a matter of choosing the right vestiges for the situation.

I don't know binder well enough to give great specifics, but being able to have DR10-15, heavy armour, and share any damage that does get through with an enemy (effectively doubling your HP as well as causing damage) starts sounding like decent tanking. As you gain levels, you gain immunity to energy drain and negative levels and eventually immunity to all mind affecting spells and abilities, which doesn't hurt if you are going to be up front in full plate.

mikej
2009-08-14, 09:40 AM
Why do casters need to be the party tank when they can make party tanks?

this^

Play a Wizard/Malconvoker and summon tanks.

Thrawn183
2009-08-14, 09:51 AM
+1 for Dragonfire Adept.

d8 HD and CON based. Has class bonuses to natural armor. Good fort save. I'm sure you're smart enough to understand what happens when you stick one in full plate.

Draz74
2009-08-14, 11:37 AM
Warforged Psion (shaper) sharing vigor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/vigor.htm) with his psicrystal, then using share pain (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/sharePain.htm) with it. Psionic repair damage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psionicRepairDamage.htm) is a potent self-heal (and can, too, be shared with your psicrystal).

Consider slapping on the dragonborn template for more Con (and wings!). Also consider Adamantine Body (psionics don't have somatic components).

Add in the Astral Construct power, and this gets my vote.

But if I have to add a new class to the discussion ... Artificer can also make a pretty decent tank. Especially a Warforged (again, for easy self-healing).

Optimystik
2009-08-14, 11:52 AM
Warforged Psion (shaper) sharing vigor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/vigor.htm) with his psicrystal, then using share pain (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/sharePain.htm) with it. Psionic repair damage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psionicRepairDamage.htm) is a potent self-heal (and can, too, be shared with your psicrystal).

...I'm suddenly extremely compelled to play a Warforged Shaper.

Gnaeus
2009-08-14, 12:36 PM
Dread Necromancer tanks about as well as the OP's warlock (DR Magic & Bludgeoning, wears light armor (which could be upgraded), same d6+con hp level until it becomes undead and shifts to d12s, can heal itself.

And then at some point he realizes that tanking is a losers game and he animates some giants to tank for him. Or rebukes encountered undead into doing it.

And at high levels, the DN gets 9th level spells. After taking Arcane Disciple and a spell list enhancing PRC, this vaults him into heights of power otherwise only witnessed by tier 1 and 2s.

Clerics, of course, are even better.

Dyllan
2009-08-14, 12:59 PM
+1 for Dragonfire Adept.

d8 HD and CON based. Has class bonuses to natural armor. Good fort save. I'm sure you're smart enough to understand what happens when you stick one in full plate.

Am I unaware of some way to bypass spell failure? Because from what I read here: http://tinyurl.com/n9xlkq all of a Dragonfire Adept's invocations are subject to arcane spell failure.

Thrawn183
2009-08-14, 01:38 PM
True, but it's breath weapons are supernatural and therefore aren't affected. Most of the invocations you get last all day and therefore it doesn't matter if they are affected by ASF.

Also, if we want to include feats, endurance+steadfast determination will give the DFA a fortitude and will save as good as any other class in the game.

The class also has access to great skills.

Finally, breath weapons are usable while grappled (if not while pinned I think) which makes them more difficult to shut down than your standard wimpy guy.

Sharkman1231
2009-08-14, 02:27 PM
My lvl12 cleric took on our party's minmaxed lvl12 barbarian in one-on-one combat,the rules were that I could cast only buffs, no offensive or healing spells. The barbarian had roughly 200 hp in rage. I had about a 27 AC and ~120 hp after buffs. After I cast Rightous might ,Divine Favor, divine power(I think that's the name), magic vestment, bears endurance, bless and GMW. I brought him down to ~20 hp before I died, and he forgot his rage ran out by then, so I sould have won(I remembered that much later). If that isn't a tank, I don't know what is. This is soooooo annoying to type on an iPhone(I'm in drivers ed)

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-08-14, 03:51 PM
For an Arcanist, being a tank is far less useful than making a tank. Planar Binding, Summon X, Dominate, Craft Construct, Animate Dead. Wizards do any of them, but Malconvoker, Beguiler, Artificer, and Dread Necro do specific tanks better.
To be a tank, the Necropolitan Dread Necro is nice(blow up everything around me and heal my allies, infinite healing, great touch attacks, d12+bonuses HD, and eventual Lichdom). Other classes work, too(I've heard nice things about Incarnum) but if you're a caster in melee, you're doing something wrong.

erikun
2009-08-14, 04:01 PM
I thought "Caster Party Tank" was already the definition of the Cleric.

Milskidasith
2009-08-14, 04:04 PM
Clerics can outtank and out melee most core classes with only core spells. They're pretty awesome. Not to mention their spells are still great.

Doc Roc
2009-08-14, 04:41 PM
I'mmmmaaaa Cleerrrric!
:: makes blubbly goldfish noises and bounces around his little tidal pool ::

Dmm: persist + divine power + trollshape?

Bayar
2009-08-14, 04:49 PM
Iot7fv. Also totemists.

Curmudgeon
2009-08-14, 04:51 PM
Clerics are tankerific because they can take advantage of a nifty rules exploit for armor, as follows.

1) Start with the right clothing.
Scholar’s Outfit

Perfect for a scholar, this outfit includes a robe, a belt, a cap, soft shoes, and possibly a cloak.2) Next, enhance the robe with an armor bonus (up to +8), as per Magic Item Compendium page 234. This works exactly the same as Bracers of Armor; the "Adding/Improving Common Item Effects" table allows armor bonuses in both Arms (bracers) and Body (robe) slots.

3) Next, you can add an armor enhancement bonus on top of the armor bonus with Magic Vestment:
You imbue a suit of armor or a shield with an enhancement bonus of +1 per four caster levels (maximum +5 at 20th level).

An outfit of regular clothing counts as armor that grants no AC bonus for the purpose of this spell.4) Finally, realize that your armor boost (up to +13) isn't from actual armor at all, and thus you can still wear a Monk's Belt to get (1 + WIS bonus) more AC!

This costs more than regular armor (64,000 gp for a +8 robe, plus a spell; vs. 35,500 gp for +5 mithral full plate; both +13 AC), but has no DEX bonus limit vs. +3 max DEX, and also allows the Monk's Belt boost to add their high WIS modifier.

Add in the War domain for martial prowess, and (of course) Divine Power and you're good to go.

You can do pretty much the same thing with a Favored Soul instead of a Cleric; just pick a deity that offers a good favored weapon, like Kossuth (Forgotten Realms fire god) for spiked chain. The armor stuff works exactly the same.

olentu
2009-08-14, 04:54 PM
Clerics are tankerific because they can take advantage of a nifty rules exploit for armor, as follows.

1) Start with the right clothing.2) Next, enhance the robe with an armor bonus (up to +8), as per Magic Item Compendium page 234. This works exactly the same as Bracers of Armor; the "Adding/Improving Common Item Effects" table allows armor bonuses in both Arms (bracers) and Body (robe) slots.

3) Next, you can add an armor enhancement bonus on top of the armor bonus with Magic Vestment:4) Finally, realize that your armor boost (up to +13) isn't from actual armor at all, and thus you can still wear a Monk's Belt to get (1 + WIS bonus) more AC!

This costs more than regular armor (64,000 gp for a +8 robe, plus a spell; vs. 35,500 gp for +5 mithral full plate; both +13 AC), but has no DEX bonus limit vs. +3 max DEX, and also allows the Monk's Belt boost to add their high WIS modifier.

Add in the War domain for martial prowess, and (of course) Divine Power and you're good to go.

You can do pretty much the same thing with a Favored Soul instead of a Cleric; just pick a deity that offers a good favored weapon, like Kossuth (Forgotten Realms fire god) for spiked chain. The armor stuff works exactly the same.

Well enchanted clothing might not be regular clothing.

PinkysBrain
2009-08-14, 04:59 PM
What Builds would you use to replace the Tank?
There is only one tank build, the Knight, and it can't be replaced (although you can perfectly well play without a tank at all). A tank's task is not primarily to soak damage, a tank's task first and foremost is to hold aggro.

You can make a character which can protect the casters somewhat with either a psionic character with dimension swap, or an arcane caster with benign transposition ... but it's not quite a tank.

Kelpstrand
2009-08-14, 05:09 PM
Why has no one even mentioned Druid yet?

a) Better non reflex saves than most characters, depending on wildshape, better reflex saves than most characters.

b) AC: are you kidding? Wild Dragonhide Mountain Plate + Monk's Belt with Wilding Clasp+Natural Armor of Wildshape form:

10 + Dex of Wildshape + Wis + Natural Armor + 10-15 from armor = Tons.

c) Focus on Wis/Con, get good HP, play something stupid like Lesser Aasimar reincarnated as a Dwarf for more Con.

d) Mini tank (TM)

e) Oh yeah, and you are a druid, cast the spells that makes people hold still, you get more and better than Wizards.

olentu
2009-08-14, 05:10 PM
Why has no one even mentioned Druid yet?

a) Better non reflex saves than most characters, depending on wildshape, better reflex saves than most characters.

b) AC: are you kidding? Wild Dragonhide Mountain Plate + Monk's Belt with Wilding Clasp+Natural Armor of Wildshape form:

10 + Dex of Wildshape + Wis + Natural Armor + 10-15 from armor = Tons.

c) Focus on Wis/Con, get good HP, play something stupid like Lesser Aasimar reincarnated as a Dwarf for more Con.

d) Mini tank (TM)

e) Oh yeah, and you are a druid, cast the spells that makes people hold still, you get more and better than Wizards.

They were excluded in the opening post.

Gnaeus
2009-08-14, 05:29 PM
There is only one tank build, the Knight, and it can't be replaced (although you can perfectly well play without a tank at all). A tank's task is not primarily to soak damage, a tank's task first and foremost is to hold aggro.

Knight can't really do anything that Paladin can't do better (And Paladin can't do anything that Cleric can't do better). The Knights challenge ability, which you seem to be relying on to hold aggro, is useless against a wide variety of opponents, and if the others are intelligent they have easy ways around it, like backing up and blasting the party with AOEs that happen to include the knight.

You don't hold aggro by making opponents make will saves using an off stat for DC, you hold aggro by being a big enough threat that enemies will die if they ignore you. Any of the casters listed above does that better than the Knight, who is dismissed as a nonentity by any enemy who realizes what he is.

woodenbandman
2009-08-14, 10:31 PM
I prefer the gish character, because you can be competent in melee while doing bad things to your enemies with spells.

aje8
2009-08-14, 10:40 PM
Wizard 20.

I cast Polymorph on myself. Then I throw in Haste and a couple of other buffs if I have time. Done.

Cleric also does an obivously great job by DMMing persiting Divine Power in addition to well..... anything and tanks easily.

Longcat
2009-08-15, 01:21 PM
How is "tank" defined anyway? High HP? High AC? Good Will/Fort saves? Battlefield Control?

I would say a combination of all the above is necessary for any halfway decent tank, so my vote goes to divine Gishes à la Ruby Knight Vindicator with "Thicket of Blades" and a reach weapon.

oxinabox
2009-08-15, 11:23 PM
Wizard 20.

I cast Polymorph on myself. Then I throw in Haste and a couple of other buffs if I have time. Done.

Cleric also does an obivously great job by DMMing persiting Divine Power in addition to well..... anything and tanks easily.

Wizard 20 isn't a good party tank:
Cos He has to be lvl 20. Whoes being the Tank until them?
Until you can polymorph your just a wizard - useless as tank.
Tank needs to beable to block passage ways so squishy wizards can either blast or escape.

aje8
2009-08-15, 11:59 PM
Wizard 20 isn't a good party tank:
Cos He has to be lvl 20. Whoes being the Tank until them?
Until you can polymorph your just a wizard - useless as tank.
Tank needs to beable to block passage ways so squishy wizards can either blast or escape.
Um.... first of all there was no level specifed in the original post so starting at 7th is fine.

Second of all, what about summons? It's pretty easy to just use low level summon monsters until then.

Additionally, going without a tank or with your only tanks being magical or summons is easy and quite fun.

sofawall
2009-08-16, 12:39 AM
And did you just list the only two options for a wizard being blast or escape?

srsli?

oxinabox
2009-08-16, 01:36 AM
And did you just list the only two options for a wizard being blast or escape?

srsli?
Wizards are Squishy.
If they are done 'traditionally' with dump stat con.
But obviosly this thread isn't about traditional, as otherwise casters wouldn't be tanks.
My bad.
I concead that. points fo to the wizard.

Also:
Golem Manuals.

sofawall
2009-08-16, 01:45 AM
Also, battlefield control. Or buff. Or Save-and-die.

EDIT: Wait wait wait wait wait. Did you say traditionally wizards have con as a dump?

Not in 3e, my friend. Int>Con>Dex>Wis>Cha>Str, almost always.

Thrice Dead Cat
2009-08-16, 02:06 AM
Wizards are Squishy.
If they are done 'traditionally' with dump stat con.
But obviosly this thread isn't about traditional, as otherwise casters wouldn't be tanks.

I'm sorry, but when in 3.5 DND have wizards ever dumped Con? It's right up there with Dex for secondary stat, unless you're going necropolitan at 3rd level.

Random NPC
2009-08-16, 02:22 AM
Sup Dawg

I heard you like Tanks, so we put Persistent Divine Metamagic in your Cleric so you can cast while you tank

sofawall
2009-08-16, 02:24 AM
Sup Dawg

I heard you like Tanks, so we put Persistent Divine Metamagic in your Cleric so you can cast while you tank

Why is it that I've only ever seen that meme on D&D boards?

lord_khaine
2009-08-16, 02:32 AM
i nominate warforget Psion or psychic warrior, with the metamorphis power you can actualy turn into a tank, by chosing the right animatet object.

Better yet, if you turn your psycrystal into a tank, then you get to ride it as you run over whatever puny mediumsized creatures you dont like, while you simulate the cannon with the Energy line power, or whack people with a spiked chain.

Random NPC
2009-08-16, 02:33 AM
Why is it that I've only ever seen that meme on D&D boards?

because a lot of the D&D geeks go to 4chan

sofawall
2009-08-16, 02:34 AM
A lot of the internet goes to 4chan, what's your point?

oxinabox
2009-08-16, 03:10 AM
I'm sorry, but when in 3.5 DND have wizards ever dumped Con? It's right up there with Dex for secondary stat, unless you're going necropolitan at 3rd level.

Traditional wizards+/=dnd wizards
My wizards dump Con, ther're frail old men, or worse: Young Healthy elves (IIRC Catagories correctly)



I heard you like Tanks, so we put Persistent Divine Metamagic in your Cleric so you can cast while you tank
Thankyou.
I feel like I'm home. (which isn't actually 4chan,)

sofawall
2009-08-16, 03:17 AM
Traditional wizards+/=dnd wizards
My wizards dump Con, ther're frail old men, or worse: Young Healthy elves (IIRC Catagories correctly)

Fighters are able to fight alongside the best of wizards, traditionally.

Doesn't make it true in D&D.

Malacode
2009-08-16, 07:24 AM
A DMM: Persist Cleric is a scary thing. I'm playing one at the moment, and I've ended up as: Healbot, Buffer, Debuffer, Tank or Ranged attack, Scout, Battlefield Control and Party Face. Let me tell you. DMM Clerics don't -have- to be Tanking. They can do almost anything with a two decent Persisted spells.

Sharkman1231
2009-08-23, 06:20 AM
Not in 3e, my friend. Int>Con>Dex>Wis>Cha>Str, almost always.

My wizards have Int>Dex>Con>Wis>Cha>Str, they use a ton of touch and ranged touch spells

sofawall
2009-08-23, 01:03 PM
Yeah, that's the only other way I see it.

Rarely, oh so rarely, I see Int>Con>Dex>Cha>Wis>Str, but most people prefer the saves and perception skills over social stuff, which you can magic away anyway.

John Campbell
2009-08-23, 02:30 PM
This is not the Diplomacy check you're looking for.

Dwarf. Int>Con>Str>Dex>Wis>Cha. Fighter 2/Wizard 6/Runesmith 2/Abjurant Champion 5/Spellsword 1/Eldritch Knight 4.

Weasel familiar to buff up that weak Reflex save. (Fort and Will are both getting multiple first class-level +2 bumps, and Fort has a massive Con bonus, too. You should never, ever fail a Fort save, and only rarely a Will save. Protection from/magic circle against alignment, and eventually mind blank, are your friends there, anyway.)

Combat Casting (for the AC prereq). Practiced Spellcaster. Craft Wondrous Item. Craft Magic Arms & Armor. Craft Construct. Forge Ring. Other feats to taste... Power Attack and Combat Reflexes are always nice, and Power Attack's synergy with wraithstrike or true strike is just sick.

Build yourself some adamantine full plate and a good greataxe, enough other miscellaneous magic items to fill every item slot you've got, build a high-end golem for a mount, polymorph your familiar into something big and mean and hand him some magic items, start casting free-Stilled (and frequently free-Extended, often free-Quickened) buffs, shared with your familiar, hit your golem and the rest of the party with any multi-target ones, and go to town.

(Never done this. No, not me. Ignore the avatar to the left.)

Jack_Simth
2009-08-23, 02:53 PM
A DMM: Persist Cleric is a scary thing. I'm playing one at the moment, and I've ended up as: Healbot, Buffer, Debuffer, Tank or Ranged attack, Scout, Battlefield Control and Party Face. Let me tell you. DMM Clerics don't -have- to be Tanking. They can do almost anything with a two decent Persisted spells.
Yeah, it can get scary, quite easily. I tend to limit my use of DMM(Persist) to party-level buffs - Mass Lesser Vigor or Vigorous Circle, Holy Aura, that kind of thing - that way I'm not overshadowing the melee brutes in battle, just aiding them.

Evil the Cat
2009-08-23, 06:01 PM
This is not the Diplomacy check you're looking for.

Dwarf. Int>Con>Str>Dex>Wis>Cha. Fighter 2/Wizard 6/Runesmith 2/Abjurant Champion 5/Spellsword 1/Eldritch Knight 4.

Weasel familiar to buff up that weak Reflex save. (Fort and Will are both getting multiple first class-level +2 bumps, and Fort has a massive Con bonus, too. You should never, ever fail a Fort save, and only rarely a Will save. Protection from/magic circle against alignment, and eventually mind blank, are your friends there, anyway.)

Combat Casting (for the AC prereq). Practiced Spellcaster. Craft Wondrous Item. Craft Magic Arms & Armor. Craft Construct. Forge Ring. Other feats to taste... Power Attack and Combat Reflexes are always nice, and Power Attack's synergy with wraithstrike or true strike is just sick.

Build yourself some adamantine full plate and a good greataxe, enough other miscellaneous magic items to fill every item slot you've got, build a high-end golem for a mount, polymorph your familiar into something big and mean and hand him some magic items, start casting free-Stilled (and frequently free-Extended, often free-Quickened) buffs, shared with your familiar, hit your golem and the rest of the party with any multi-target ones, and go to town.

(Never done this. No, not me. Ignore the avatar to the left.)


I did something kind of similar to this once. Since you need combat casting anyways, you might as well pick up shielded casting and never again worry about casting spells in combat.

aje8
2009-08-24, 12:19 AM
Traditional wizards+/=dnd wizards
My wizards dump Con, ther're frail old men, or worse: Young Healthy elves (IIRC Catagories correctly)

Yeah.... dumping con as a Wizard is unorthodox to say the least.

My Wizards are usually Int>Con>Dex>Assorted Dump Stats with dex occasionally moving up that if I intend to use a lot of rays.

Obligitory Note: Druid 20 does it better.

DMM cleric you say? Let me introduce you to my main man Greenbound Summoning.

John Campbell
2009-08-24, 01:44 AM
I did something kind of similar to this once. Since you need combat casting anyways, you might as well pick up shielded casting and never again worry about casting spells in combat.

Skills don't auto-fail on 1s, and I'd gotten Ageirr, by the mid-levels, to the point where, between the Combat Casting bonus, the Con bonus, my ranks in Concentration, and a item bonus or two (side effects from things I'd gotten for other purposes), I literally could not fail any defensive casting check for anything short of casting my highest level spell while completely surrounded. The DM objected when I quit bothering to even roll them, but I think he got the point when he called me on that, and I tossed a d20 into the air and said, "Yeah, I made it," and went back to adding up my damage dice before it even hit the table.

So not worth spending one of my precious feats, and having to keep a shield ready (which does nothing else for me but use up a hand I'd rather have on my axe... it doesn't stack with the bonus from shield, and Abjurant Champions get free Quicken, Extend, and their class level in extra AC on shield), to avoid having to make a check that I can't fail anyway. The only real advantage I see in Shielded Casting is that I believe it trumps Mage Slayer, because it's not "defensive casting", which you can't do near a Mage Slayer; it's just "your casting doesn't provoke".

Jergmo
2009-08-24, 04:03 AM
The DM objected when I quit bothering to even roll them, but I think he got the point when he called me on that, and I tossed a d20 into the air and said, "Yeah, I made it," and went back to adding up my damage dice before it even hit the table.

:smallbiggrin: This made me laugh.

woodenbandman
2009-08-24, 09:26 AM
Totemist, as long as we're bringing in things that don't actually cast spells. d8 HD, con based, melee monster. Why bother trying to pull the aggro when you can literally pull the aggro. They can grapple creatures larger than they are. Amazing! Mix it up with Psychic Warrior for extra cool points!

Other people nominated are Ardent, Wilder (wild surge vigor + share pain), Stalwart battle sorceror (12 con gets you 35 hit points at level 4. That's a lot.), and Incarnate, though they're only a tank in the sense that a giant metal box that doesn't move is a tank in that they can be made impossible to hit.

EDIT: Wizards only ever dumped Con because back in the day, everyone dumped con. You could only get the most out of con if you were a fighter class, otherwise you had to take your +2hp/level and like it. And even that required a 16 con. It was really rare to roll that high. By the way, you rolled stats. It hardly mattered anyway because back in "the day" attacks did like 10 damage so you could reliably hide behind the party tank without worry, unlike in the days of 3.5 where you can get shot for hundreds of damage in a round if you're foolhardy enough.

Plus, in 2.0, your charisma was directly related to your ability to attract followers. No leadership feat for you, no sir! you had to WORK for your followers. Not to mention that skill checks couldn't just be boosted with "ranks," you had to be inherently able to do them, like spot and listen. That means that Rogues NEED dex and int, and wizards NEED Int (to even cast their spells), and Dex (to live), and clerics NEED wisdom and Charisma, etc. The only people who actually NEEDED con were fighters, everyone else was pretty fine.

Curmudgeon
2009-08-24, 09:40 AM
Skills don't auto-fail on 1s ... The DM objected when I quit bothering to even roll them, but I think he got the point when he called me on that, and I tossed a d20 into the air and said, "Yeah, I made it," and went back to adding up my damage dice before it even hit the table.
That's what I call the "take 1" option. :smallwink:

(Though if we're talking nonstandard numbers here, I prefer the "take 12" option from Savvy Rogue.)

Kobold-Bard
2009-08-24, 11:25 AM
That's what I call the "take 1" option. :smallwink:

(Though if we're talking nonstandard numbers here, I prefer the "take 12" option from Savvy Rogue.)

I've always thought Taking 1 meant you fail on purpose. Why you would do this, who knows, but the option is always there.

But yeah, any Full Caster can be a better tank than a Melee character with the right spells.

mostlyharmful
2009-08-24, 11:30 AM
But yeah, any Full Caster can be a better tank than a Melee character with the right spells.

It's difficult but not impossible for an Adept to make a good tank in any but a really highly optimized campaign so except for the weakest possible casting class (which is a frikn' NPC one anyway) in the hardest of cases I'd put money on the well played caster too. 3.5, casters just do it better.