Best Epic route to take a Factotum?

[Kobold-Bard]

I am building a Lvl 30 character and have decided on Factotum 20/??? 10.

Obviously I could take Chameleon and call it a day, but I was wondering if anybody had any other advice. My Googling turned up a single Epic progression, but I have very little concept of game balance and it looks like nobody ever replied, so I have no idea how good it is.

Any other Epic homebrews, other wise any other good routes to take him in?

Thanks in advance
K-B

[kamikasei]

One prolific homebrewer on this forum created an Epic Destiny (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5883915) tailored to the class. Might be your best bet.

[T.G. Oskar]

I am building a Lvl 30 character and have decided on Factotum 20/??? 10.

Obviously I could take Chameleon and call it a day, but I was wondering if anybody had any other advice. My Googling turned up a single Epic progression, but I have very little concept of game balance and it looks like nobody ever replied, so I have no idea how good it is.

Any other Epic homebrews, other wise any other good routes to take him in?

Thanks in advance
K-B

Well, the best idea is to basically leap-frog the progression. Mostly, Factotum 8-10/Chameleon 10/Factotum (the rest). By that, you will get by level 28-30 the "I can use (almost) all Ex. skills from every class" ability (Cunning Brilliance, IIRC), to complement the already awesome skills from the Factotum.

The rest is mostly dipping into the class/prestige class of your choice. Specifically, Rogue 2 for Evasion and Uncanny Dodge, Exemplar for Skill Mastery and all those skill-related abilities (not to mention the additions to Int and whatnot), or dabbling into the things that Factotum/Chameleon doesn't dabble (like, Psion, or perhaps Incarnate) for extra beauty. By Epic levels, anything that can give you something ELSE becomes a boon to the Factotum, who can dabble in most anything.

[JeenLeen]

Does Chameleon give caster level progression to a caster type you had before entering the PrC?

If so, I would recommend taking a level dip into a caster. It won't help much at your level to have low-level spells, but it might add some utility. The Bard spell Improvisition (Bard 1; Spell Compendium) could be helpful, as it can be used to add a bonus to almost if not anything you roll.
I don't know what powers Factotum gets between 15 and 20, so I don't know how damaging not getting the full 20 levels of it would be.


Your saves would probably be better overall if you let Epic Save Progression take over instead of the Chameleon's all-bad saves.

[Douglas]

Your saves would probably be better overall if you let Epic Save Progression take over instead of the Chameleon's all-bad saves.
The epic save progression takes over at character level 21 no matter what you do with multiclassing and PrCs.

[woodenbandman]

Does Chameleon give caster level progression to a caster type you had before entering the PrC?

If so, I would recommend taking a level dip into a caster. It won't help much at your level to have low-level spells, but it might add some utility. The Bard spell Improvisition (Bard 1; Spell Compendium) could be helpful, as it can be used to add a bonus to almost if not anything you roll.
I don't know what powers Factotum gets between 15 and 20, so I don't know how damaging not getting the full 20 levels of it would be.


Your saves would probably be better overall if you let Epic Save Progression take over instead of the Chameleon's all-bad saves.

It does not progress casting. It gives its own casting like Ur Priest or Blighter or Sublime Chord.

[JeenLeen]

The epic save progression takes over at character level 21 no matter what you do with multiclassing and PrCs.

I meant having Factotum as character levels 1-20, where good saves exist, would be better save-wise than having Chameleon during any of those levels.


My bad on the caster progression.

[T.G. Oskar]

Does Chameleon give caster level progression to a caster type you had before entering the PrC?

If so, I would recommend taking a level dip into a caster. It won't help much at your level to have low-level spells, but it might add some utility. The Bard spell Improvisition (Bard 1; Spell Compendium) could be helpful, as it can be used to add a bonus to almost if not anything you roll.

The "spell-casting" ability of the Chameleon is self-contained (as in, it does not allow you to qualify for Prestige Classes or feats), so it doesn't grant you increased caster level progression.

However, you *can* get Improvisation with the Chameleon, without a level of Bard. The idea is that, while you prepare spells, you can get them from virtually any arcane spellcasting class (which means from the lists of sorcerer, wizard, bard, hexblade, duskblade, warmage, beguiler AND dread necromancer); this means you can prepare Inspiration as a first-level Chameleon spell.

As well, since you can either choose to cast divine spells instead, or after 5th-6th level choose two aptitudes (and thus cast both arcane and divine spells), you can get both Inspiration (for virtually anything) and Divine Insight (for skill checks).

I'd say it's better to get levels in a psionic class, for example (or the Hidden Talent feat) for a psionic power that does something similar. Precognition is a single-use bonus, but it's an insight bonus that applies to anything.


I don't know what powers Factotum gets between 15 and 20, so I don't know how damaging not getting the full 20 levels of it would be.

Basically, you permanently get your Int bonus as a dodge bonus to AC so as long as you use Light Armor (or Medium treated as Light), two more "slots" to prepare spells per day (and an effective arcane caster level of 20th) to prepare up to 7th level spells, two extra uses of Opportunistic Piety, and Cunning Brilliance. Especially Cunning Brilliance: it allows you to choose three Ex. class abilities from any class, and treat them as if you were a member of that class at level 15th. So, you can get Damage Reduction as Barbarian, Flurry of Blows and Rage for the day, and you get DR 3/-, two extra attacks at no penalty for the flurry, and a rage that grants +6 to Str and Con, +3 morale bonus to Will saves, -2 to AC, and an extra +4 to Will on enchantment spells for 4 times per day.


Your saves would probably be better overall if you let Epic Save Progression take over instead of the Chameleon's all-bad saves.

The aptitude grants Will save increases to balance the bad saves. So, if you chose the Divine Aptitude Focus, you'd have +2 to Fort and Will saves, which increase to +4 at 5th level. So, you *technically* have good saves after all, but they can be better. Also, being untyped, they technically stack (so a Chameleon with both Arcane and Divine Focus has twice the bonus to Will saves)

[quick_comment]

If you take 4 levels of a martial adept class, you qualify for 9th level maneuvers. With your extra actions from factotum, you can refresh and initiate in the same round.

[Thorin]

Yep, use ToB for the win

[Draz74]

However, you *can* get Improvisation with the Chameleon, without a level of Bard.
You can get it, but technically the spell's effect will still be based on your Bard level, so it's pretty useless by a strict reading of the spell effect.


Basically, you permanently get your Int bonus as a dodge bonus to AC so as long as you use Light Armor (or Medium treated as Light), two more "slots" to prepare spells per day (and an effective arcane caster level of 20th) to prepare up to 7th level spells,
These are actually very, very good abilities.


two extra uses of Opportunistic Piety, and Cunning Brilliance.
And three more Inspiration Points per encounter (1 at 17th, 2 at 20th), which is huge for a Factotum that doesn't use Font of Inspiration.


Especially Cunning Brilliance: it allows you to choose three Ex. class abilities from any class, and treat them as if you were a member of that class at level 15th. So, you can get Damage Reduction as Barbarian, Flurry of Blows and Rage for the day, and you get DR 3/-, two extra attacks at no penalty for the flurry, and a rage that grants +6 to Str and Con, +3 morale bonus to Will saves, -2 to AC, and an extra +4 to Will on enchantment spells for 4 times per day.
That's ... not really the best example. Barbarian abilities aren't that fantastic, and any ability you pick up with Cunning Brilliance only lasts for 1 minute.

It is an awesome ability though, if you use it carefully. Sneak Attack +8d6 for one minute can be pretty devastating. My favorite use of Cunning Brilliance, though, is to pick up a Rogue Special Ability, which gives you the option to gain any Feat that you qualify for for 1 minute. Martial Study and Martial Stance are amazing options for this feat (especially if you have access to ToB Wondrous Items, like Iron Heart Vest), but there are plenty of other feats around that are wonderful to cherry-pick for one minute too.


If you take 4 levels of a martial adept class, you qualify for 9th level maneuvers. With your extra actions from factotum, you can refresh and initiate in the same round.
Oooh, good call. The Factotum's weakest area is often normal melee combat, so this is a great way to even things out.

I'm not particularly a fan of Chameleon spellcasting, I have to admit, so I'd recommend a final build of something like Factotum 20/Warblade 8/Chameleon 2. You could also throw in a few levels of Incarnate or Swashbuckler instead of Warblade ...

[The Demented One]

One prolific homebrewer on this forum created an Epic Destiny (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5883915) tailored to the class. Might be your best bet.
I like this idea. :smallwink:

[T.G. Oskar]

You can get it, but technically the spell's effect will still be based on your Bard level, so it's pretty useless by a strict reading of the spell effect.

Actually, by the Spell Compendium, it says "caster level". Reading it directly from the book.


These are actually very, very good abilities.

Agree with that. Was just pointing it out, since the poster to whom I was responding wasn't aware of the class abilities beyond 15th level.


And three more Inspiration Points per encounter (1 at 17th, 2 at 20th), which is huge for a Factotum that doesn't use Font of Inspiration.

I was in a bit of a hurry, so I mostly glanced towards it. But yeah, it's pretty much assumed that the inspiration points grow based on level, aside from that slight boost at 20th level.


That's ... not really the best example. Barbarian abilities aren't that fantastic, and any ability you pick up with Cunning Brilliance only lasts for 1 minute.

I was actually about to add Sneak Attack, but for some odd and strange reason the online SRD doesn't have it as a (Ex) ability. Had to check the PHB to confirm it's really an extraordinary ability. Note I was using mostly Core abilities: it gets better with splatbooks.

Besides, one minute can be more than enough. It can be a lifesaver if you know how to use it.


It is an awesome ability though, if you use it carefully. Sneak Attack +8d6 for one minute can be pretty devastating. My favorite use of Cunning Brilliance, though, is to pick up a Rogue Special Ability, which gives you the option to gain any Feat that you qualify for for 1 minute. Martial Study and Martial Stance are amazing options for this feat (especially if you have access to ToB Wondrous Items, like Iron Heart Vest), but there are plenty of other feats around that are wonderful to cherry-pick for one minute too.

Last I reckon, feats do not count as extraordinary class abilities, as per RAW. Checked on both online SRD and on the book. All the other Rogue special abilities are marked with the Ex. descriptor, except the feat.

Most feats are technically extraordinary abilities, but they aren't legal with a strict reading of the rules for the Cunning Brilliance ability. You can do better with a wand of Heroics, even if the list is a bit more limited. And you can get it from both Factotum and Chameleon, if I may add.


I'm not particularly a fan of Chameleon spellcasting, I have to admit, so I'd recommend a final build of something like Factotum 20/Warblade 8/Chameleon 2. You could also throw in a few levels of Incarnate or Swashbuckler instead of Warblade ...

Well...it's technically the equivalent of having a build of Archivist 3/Wizard 3/Mystic Theurge 8 or 9, plus added benefits (mostly the benefits to saves, better BAB, better skill points), but you gain access to the spell lists of virtually every single divine or arcane spellcasting class. That's pretty much access to all spells, period. Granted, 6th level spellcasting with 20th level spellcasting and one list at a time (or both after getting Aptitude Focus), but nothing to scoff off. I wouldn't call it off because of this.

It mostly depends on where you wish to take the Factotum. A loss of Chameleon levels hurts their ability to dabble on other classes a bit (since most of the "I ruin your class" spells are actually lower than 6th level), but allows focus on another class.

Also, I'd go Warblade 1/Swordsage 1/Master of Nine 5, even if you need a load of feats for that. Levels of Binder aren't bad, either, especially if you gain access to the online vestiges. In fact, Factotum 20/Chameleon X (I'd stand for 10)/Binder X makes for a really impressive jack of all trades.

[Draz74]

Actually, by the Spell Compendium, it says "caster level". Reading it directly from the book.
Huh. Must have just been remembering wrong. My bad.


Last I reckon, feats do not count as extraordinary class abilities, as per RAW. Checked on both online SRD and on the book. All the other Rogue special abilities are marked with the Ex. descriptor, except the feat.
Darn, you're right. There is a good case against being able to cherry-pick feats with Cunning Brilliance. Some DMs may still allow it, though. And Rogue Special Abilities are still a good place to shop for Cunning Brilliance options.


Most feats are technically extraordinary abilities, but they aren't legal with a strict reading of the rules for the Cunning Brilliance ability. You can do better with a wand of Heroics, even if the list is a bit more limited. And you can get it from both Factotum and Chameleon, if I may add.
Absolutely. I love Heroics, especially on a Factotum. I just don't see any reason not to use it and Cunning Brilliance (and Chameleon 2 for that matter) to cherry-pick Feats. :smallbiggrin:


Well...it's technically the equivalent of having a build of Archivist 3/Wizard 3/Mystic Theurge 8 or 9, plus added benefits (mostly the benefits to saves, better BAB, better skill points), but you gain access to the spell lists of virtually every single divine or arcane spellcasting class. That's pretty much access to all spells, period. Granted, 6th level spellcasting with 20th level spellcasting and one list at a time (or both after getting Aptitude Focus), but nothing to scoff off. I wouldn't call it off because of this.
I'm not saying Chameleon spellcasting isn't powerful, just that I'm not particularly a fan of it.


Also, I'd go Warblade 1/Swordsage 1/Master of Nine 5, even if you need a load of feats for that.
Oooh, tempting, but yeah, that eats a lot of feats. If you're spending all your feats on melee abilities like that, you might be better off just as a Martial Adept, rather than being a Factotum at all. And don't forget that pure Warblade levels will also allow you to add your INT mod to a bunch of sundry things.