Black Ethergaunts

[quick_comment]

What moron gave them a +4 LA?

The ability mods alone are worth at least 3 or 4 LA, enslave is another +1, gaze attack is worth another 1 at least, spell immunity is worth at least +2, ultrablindsight is another +1. Abberation type is another +1

They should be LA +9 at bare minimum. I mean, compare them to a fensir, which is in the same book, and comes immediately after the ethergaunts. Fensirs have +5 LA in exchange for worse stats and the ability to die whenever the sun rises.

[erikun]

How many HD do they have? Because that applies to the final ECL too. Although seriously, Ethergaunts are quite crazy all by themselves.

[quick_comment]

They have 16 HD, and cast as 17th level wizards. They also get +20 int, among +5 or more to every other stat.

[JeenLeen]

Oh, yeah. Those are insane. Their HD stack with any wizard levels, too, IIRC, so it's not much of a hit at all. I guess they get a bit bummed since they get epic feats lower, but the loss in caster level seems worth the +20 Int.

I was a little sad when I realized, upon first hearing of that race, my first reaction was to wonder if the DM would let us use them as a player race once we hit level 20. (We were all far too optimized in that game.)

[erikun]

So at ECL 21, you'll be effectively a 18th level wizard with +20 INT and unusual skills. (1st level wizard class) Yeah, that's a bit much, although being an ECL 26 for an 18th level wizard wouldn't even be worth it. Bumping up to LA might be appropriate, but we are talking about epic level wizards here - I'm not sure how much it really matters at this point. :smallwink:

[Kelpstrand]

Etherguants are a level 17 Wizard with a +13 to Int over a normal Wizard, and a PrC that gave them some abilities. They aren't really any better than a Wizard/Master Specialist/IotSFV/Archmage.

They get some nice abilities, give up CL, spells, ability to specialize, and all PrC abilities. +Int makes up for most of the spells lost.

Personally, it's not any more dumb then the fact that Druids starting at level 13 get a free +3 to all mental stats. Any character starting at 20 is going to have some weird crap that another character can't.

If you are really starting a game at 20 and worried about the Etherguant being better than your Wizard, just declare that you had Vow of Poverty, and Chaos Shuffled all your feats from it before picking up items. Also, be a Gray Elf that Reincarnated as a Dwarf.

Past 21, they suck, because they can't even get Epic Spellcasting until later, and they get way fewer Epic Feats, which is the real deal, because a Wizard 26 has Epic Spellcasting and Auto Quickens all his spells, and Multispells. An Etherguant gets... well, some cool immunities and higher stats, but Shapechange kinda puts that out to pasture, since a Shapechanged Wizard can get all the same stuff, or better stuff, and the Etherguant can't use Shpaechange without losing all his racial abilities, including spellcasting.

[quick_comment]

So at ECL 21, you'll be effectively a 18th level wizard with +20 INT and unusual skills. (1st level wizard class) Yeah, that's a bit much, although being an ECL 26 for an 18th level wizard wouldn't even be worth it. Bumping up to LA might be appropriate, but we are talking about epic level wizards here - I'm not sure how much it really matters at this point. :smallwink:

Being ECL 26 for an 18th wizard (keep in mind that 16 of those levels are abberation HD, which are better than wizard HD) with immunity (only against spells you dont want) of level 6 and lower, and the other ridiculous abilities?

Id like to see you get all those abilities out of an epic spell at level 26. You wont be able to; the stat boosts alone will put you beyond your wealth.

[Kelpstrand]

Id like to see you get all those abilities out of an epic spell at level 26. You wont be able to; the stat boosts alone will put you beyond your wealth.

Not familiar with Epic Spell reduction are you?

But not that it matters, I can get all that with Shapechange. It's called, Shapechange into a Black Etherguant and get all it's Ex and Su abilities. (And Physical stats, and yes, he will have +10 higher int than me, and that's good because it's only fare that I get all his abilities and more epic feats.)

[erikun]

Also: Anything level appropriate with Holy Word will paralyze, blind, and deafen you. Anything +2 CR over your ECL will kill you outright. Divine is one of the big holes in an Ethergaunt's defenses - if I recall correctly, it even bypasses their SR.

A 26th level wizard who knew you were coming could just research an epic-level spell that bypasses SR anyways, making most of your immunity moot. :smalltongue: I'm just saying that if I had the choice between a 26th level human wizard fighting an Ethergaunt, or the reverse, I'd definitely choose the human.

[quick_comment]

Not familiar with Epic Spell reduction are you?

But not that it matters, I can get all that with Shapechange. It's called, Shapechange into a Black Etherguant and get all it's Ex and Su abilities. (And Physical stats, and yes, he will have +10 higher int than me, and that's good because it's only fare that I get all his abilities and more epic feats.)

Its sort of difficult to get a dozen wizards to come cast a week long spell with you every few days.

And using shapechange just shows that shapechange is broken; it doesnt mean that everything should have 0 LA because you can just turn into them for free.

[Kelpstrand]

Its sort of difficult to get a dozen wizards to come cast a week long spell with you every few days.

Except it's really easy to get a bunch of minions with casting who are obligated to do as you command, including casting spells every week.


And using shapechange just shows that shapechange is broken; it doesnt mean that everything should have 0 LA because you can just turn into them for free.

No, it shows that anything with 16HD and more than one LA should not have any of it's Ex or Su abilities included in it's LA. Like the Black Etherguant doesn't.

[Lycanthromancer]

PAO grants you the Int of whatever creature you turn into. There are some really nice high-Int critters out there, y'know.

[erikun]

It feels like we've derailed a bit.

Anyways, I would consider giving them a +5 LA or possibly +6 LA. However, Black Ethergaunts are in a bit of an odd ECL. There is a major jump in power between 20th level and 21st level, and they sit right on the edge. A classless Ethergaunt isn't really equal to a 22nd level wizard (assuming +6 LA), but a 4th level wizard Ethergaunt (21st level caster) may be equal to a 26th level wizard... it's hard to say. The +20 INT is still nice, but the immunities to lower level spells won't be as practical anymore.

I wouldn't put them any higher than +6 LA, and might actually consider +4 LA to be fair.

[woodenbandman]

Epic arguments are pointless because anything with at least 17 levels of casting of any kind, even Healer casting, is capable of researching a spell that annihilates everything and anything. A 26th level wizard is no more effective than an ethergaunt wizard 6, because they both have epic spellcasting, invariably, forever, and their spells kill the whole world.

The argument may continue for years, and no one party is correct. Yeah, one might have certain advantages over the other one, but that doesn't negate the fact that each party has the most powerful spells ever on their side.

It's like countries with nukes that go to war with guns. Yeah, one might have more guns than the other, but each one is quite capable of exploding the other one with ease.

[Gralamin]

Its sort of difficult to get a dozen wizards to come cast a week long spell with you every few days.

And using shapechange just shows that shapechange is broken; it doesnt mean that everything should have 0 LA because you can just turn into them for free.

Calling Outsiders. Its faster, lasts forever, and is exponential!

[Teron]

They have 16 HD, and cast as 17th level wizards. They also get +20 int, among +5 or more to every other stat.
For the record, there's no such thing as a +5 racial bonus to an ability score; racial bonuses and penalties to ability scores are always even numbers. You substract 11 from odd ability scores and 10 from even ones in monster stat blocks to get the racial adjustment, unless different base scores are listed.

[Alleine]

The only thing I'd really have an issue with is their ability to ignore arcane spells of 6th or lower because its pretty powerful. Sure there are plenty of spells that don't allow SR, but that ability will make encounters A LOT less challenging for the player and much more challenging for the DM. However, at that level of play other wizards are pretty powerful too, and don't have any LA. Or heck, clerics are a nice counter.

And to actually answer you: Wizards of the Coast made them. You really shouldn't be surprised. I mean, just look at their track record! Core is already horribly unbalanced as it is. And since they clearly think that wizards are underpowered it makes sense that they'd reduce the LA.