Help me with 4E

[Froogleyboy]

I don't understand 4E, and I want to get in to it. Could someone explain the differences between it and 3.5 to me?

[V'icternus]

They're completely different systems, I'm afraid. The transition from 3.5 to 4th edition has been proven to be difficult for many.

Your best bet is to buy the Players Handbook, buy the Dungeon Master's Guide, and then read the Players Handbook, looking things up in the DMG as needed. It's a very different game.

[Gralamin]

Quick start rules help (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/QuickStartRules.pdf)

[Mando Knight]

Could someone explain the differences between it and 3.5 to me?

Lotsa differences. But the basics:

The class you pick at 1st level is your main class for the rest of the game. No more Paladin 2/Sorcerer X or such. You can only multiclass into one other class (unless you're a Bard, which is a PHB2 class), and you do so with feats that grant (usually) a lesser version of one of the class abilities.

Alignment restrictions are pretty much gone. Clerics and Paladins at least are encouraged to have the same alignment as their deity.

The skill list has been cut down and training in a skill gives you a flat +5 modifier, much like in SAGA. However, because of the lower number of skills available, your number of trained skills is independent from your Intelligence modifier. Class specific multiclass feats also include training in a skill, either a specific one or from a list.

Rather than gaining new class abilities at various levels, each character gains powers at specific levels, and gains new class abilities through feats, paragon paths, and epic destinies.

Hit points per level are numerically fixed based on your class. You do not apply your Constitution modifier to each level's HP.

You only apply your Dexterity modifier to AC when you're wearing light or no armor. You can now also apply your Intelligence modifier to AC if it's higher than your Dexterity modifier. Any situation where you were flat-footed in 3.5 now means that you're granting Combat Advantage instead, which is a flat +2 modifier to the enemy's attack.

Each of the saves (Fort, Ref, Will) have been replaced with Defenses. Fortitude is now boosted by either Strength or Constitution, Reflex by Dexterity or Intelligence, and Will by Charisma or Wisdom. Each class grants a +1 modifier in two or all three of the defenses, or a +2 modifier in one.

[V'icternus]

Yep, those look like the basic changes to me...

Unless we get into all the class and race changes... But nobody's gonna do that. There are too many minor changes...

[RTGoodman]

Check out the D&D 4E Test Drive (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4news/20090428). It has the Quick Start rules, which Gralamin already linked, plus a couple of adventures for you and friends to run through, plus a link to the demo version of the Character Builder.

[Mordokai]

Your best bet is to buy the Players Handbook, buy the Dungeon Master's Guide, and then read the Players Handbook, looking things up in the DMG as needed. It's a very different game.

This sounds like a sound advice. However, be prepared that the books might not be to your liking. They certainly weren't to mine, so I ended selling them for lower price as I got them, mainly because I was just happy to be rid of them. If you already have a lot fo 3.5 books, you might want to look up for... alternative sources of books, if you catch the meaning I'm trying to get across.

That said, the gift set isn't that expensive, so it's totally up to you what you decide. But your best bet would really be to simply buy the books and check them out for yourself. You'll learn most this way.

[Kaziel]

Three others changes

First major change worth mentioning, at least IMO, is the cap on how many powers you can have, replacing them as you level up. What this translates to is that certain classes *coughWizardsClericscough* are not completely overshadowing almost all other classes from mid to endgame. A Fighter can bust out with an attack that slams a single target for 9d10 or hits a bunch for 5d10 (varies depending on weapon), just as frequently as a Wizard can at high levels.

Second: The addition of At-Will Powers. These are basic level 1 abilities that can be used infinitely. This is specifically done to balance out early portions of the game. As we all know, after about level 5, casters start to shine, but before that they are entirely limited by how many spells they have. At-Will abilities can be used over and over again, but they are weak compared to other abilities. These give non-casters something to do other than say "I swing my sword/axe/hammer/etc. at the enemy again" while Casters can never really run out of spells, even if what they have only hits for 1d6 or so.

With the change to how powers work in general, Clerics can't be responsible for healing people exclusively. Instead, each class gives an amount of healing surges (class based value + Con Mod). These healing surges can be used in limited circumstances during combat, and freely as needed between combat. This allows a lot more freedom in party creation, with Clerics or some other healing heavy caster no longer being must-haves. Theoretically one could create Drizzt's party and actually have it really work as an adventuring party.

========

In the end, I will agree that the best way to figure it out is to read about it. 4th edition is a very, very differnt game than 3rd or 3.5. The jump from 2nd to 3rd seems tiny by comparison of the jump from 3.5 to 4th. Some find 4th to be to their liking (like me), while others prefer 3.5 for it's greater overall freedom of character design (the ability to level the class you want each level makes for much more flexible characters).

[AgentPaper]

Also, roles have been more firmly established. Fighters and Wizards are now more specific than "people who use weapons" and "people who use magic". Each class has a certain role: Defender, Striker, Leader, or Controller. Defenders try to keep everyone safe, usually by convincing the enemies to attack himself rather than his enemies, or punishing them when they don't. Strikers specialize in doing lots of damage, especially to a single target. Leaders specialize in handing out buffs, healing, and generally supporting the group. Controllers specialize in doling out damage to large groups of enemies, as well as debuffing enemies and limiting their options in some way or another.

There's also a much larger emphasis on teamwork, instead of just individual strength. Roles still tend to bleed into each other, for example the Wizard can lean more towards a striker role, but he still won't hold a candle to the whoop-ass a rogue can hand out. A paladin can use his Lay on Hands feature as quick heal, and has a couple buffs, but the party cleric can do much, much more than that. Similarly the paladin can do things that the cleric simply can't.

And while you can't change your class in later levels, you can still get a lot of variety via Paragon Paths and Epic Destinies, which are basically what Prestige Classes were supposed to be, adding flavor to your class without fundamentally changing your identity.

[Kol Korran]

a few mroe differences that come to mind:
1) abilities: each class uses one or two abilities for it's attack, but this mean that Cha can be used for melee attacks for example, and intelliegence for ranged. characters chances of hitting the target are far more balanced then they were in 3.5E. oh, and no multiple attacks (unless you get the power)

2) monsters: other than minions, there aren't almost any cases of "one hit, one kill". battles tend to be more drawn out, more tactics focused. monsters are categorized in 4 divisions: minions, which are one hit one kill. they represent masses of mooks. there are the regulars, which are slightly less in power then the PCs. (a kobold regular for example has somethign elike 25 hp, which is similar to what a first level character has), there are elites, who are about twice tougher, still fighting in groups, and lastly Solos, who are quite powerfull, but usually outdone by a PC group due to action economy, (to make a solo efficient you need specifically prepared terrain or mooks with it usually. there are exceptions)

3) healing: it all depend on healing surges- how many of them you got for the day, and how much hit points each heals (a quarter of your max hp). out of an encounter you can use how many you want, so usually a prty fully heals between encoutners. in an encounter each character can heal by using an action called "second wind" (though many times it's a bad tactic), or the leader can do a bit of a mroe powerfull healing, but just twice per encounter.
over all, this normally leads to the party being able to tackle more than 4 encounters per day, at least ones desigened specifically for their level.

4) skill challanges: a different kinf of encounter, some like it's concept, some don't. basically you try to overcome a situation using the group skills. (read about it for more) you usually need to get a certain number of successes before failures. i think it's quite fun, and allows more players interaction within the story, but some realy hate it.

hope this helps,
Kol.

[oxinabox]

INT or DEX can go into AC.
4e is more about balance, than sense (fine with me)
Similarly there are feats that allow you to use any stat for your basic attack.
Eg You could Charge someone with a Ax: to detertmine to hit you add Half-lvl+Prof+CHA
however these feats aren't always worth going it to.
say if you a rogue with great DEXa nd CHA, but one 10 STR.
Most of your attacks are based of Powers which do attack based of Dex (or some cha) and (many but not all) do damage of similar.


Oh, Not being proficient gives you no penalty:
Being proficient grants you +2 or +3 to hit depending on the weapon.
Similar sort of thing for tool sets.
Without a set of Thieves tools you may still try to pick a lock.
But if you have them it gives +2 to the check

Crit no longer doubles (except with certain weapons Labled High Crit)
Oh yeah , anything in a power description that says [W] means weapon damage.

Many changes to Classes and more to class functioning:
Clerics don't rebuke undead - invokers do and it's a Daily (or encounter?) Power.
BArabian rage is also a Power.

umm.
Saves:
Will, Fort and Ref are now static defences like AC (some powers roll against them look in that attack is should say STR vs Fort for example).
This reduces the numbr of rolls on the players end.
It makes some sense.
So instead of making a REF save to dodge out from under a rock.
the rock makes an attack roll VS Ref to hit you.
If you stab someone with a dagger that's been poisoned, you make an attack roll to hit them (norally vs AC) with the dagger, do damage.
Then a secondary attack roll to poison them (vs FORT).

If you poisoned some one's drink youy wopuld roll an attack vs there fort also.

Saving throws.
You may save against each on going effect affecting you at the end of your turn.
You roll a d20, 10 or above saves.
the effect stops.

[Mjoellnir]

Another important thing is that it is a lot harder to play some races because the rules for monsters are now different from the rules for PC's and because some races were retconned. The new Aasimar for example are called Deva (the original Devas don't exist anymore, along with the other classic angels, archons and eladrin) and are angels that incarnated in mortal form and constantly reincarnate unless they become evil and are reborn as Rakshasa.

[oxybe]

the racial shuffle is no biggie and should be expected. look at the poor half-orc and how he's been treated since 1st ed. it's also much easier to play a bugbear or minotaur in 4th ed from level 1, then in 3rd ed, so it's a big "your mileage may vary".

one of my recommendation is to definitely try the freebies, especially since it has a free character builder to muck around with, but the big one is...

/drumroll

...go to your FLGS, ask a 4th ed running GM to sit in on a game, take notes and ask questions afterwards based on your observations. go on forums, be it GitP, the WotC, EnWorld, or others and keep asking.

[jmbrown]

The way I learned 4E was by picking up the Player's Handbook and just reading it.

* I'm assuming you know what an RPG is and how to play one so open up Chapter 1 and read "The Core Mechanic." This is the backbone of 4E.

* Read chapter 2 entirely. Entirely. This is probably the most important part of the entire PHB if not the entirety of the 4E system. If you don't comprehend Chapter 2 then you won't comprehend the game.

* Follow the procedure on page 30 "Character Sheet" step-by-step. Don't skip any steps. By the time you hit step 30 you'll have a finished character. If it's your first character then choose human as your race and follow the builds recommended for your class. Once you learn the system you can customize your class by picking other races and feats. Avoid picking a class that offers rituals because it will complicate your learning process for now.

* Once you build a character, read "Adventuring" and "Combat" chapters. Don't skip anything here. 4E plays somewhat similar to 3E but it's very different in how abilities are handled.

Congratulations, you now know how to play the game. 4E's books have the best structure out of every RPG I played IMO. It's pretty much written so that children can understand it. Everything important is in the tan boxes, bold, and bullets for importance. If you need to look up a rule just look for the appropriate tan box; everything in bold is the rule.

[Jack_Banzai]

These give non-casters something to do other than say "I swing my sword/axe/hammer/etc. at the enemy again" while Casters can never really run out of spells, even if what they have only hits for 1d6 or so.

This is actually what makes 4e a happier thing for me. Over twenty years of "I swing my sword, I swing my sword, oops, I shoot my bow" is now over. Not that you had >no< options, but it really opened up things for the non-spellcasters.

[Myatar_Panwar]

While others say it is wildly different, I will play the devils advocate and say "ehhh, its not that different really." You still have just about all of the core mechanics, such as HP, the 6 attributes, the d20 being the most important dice, etc. Your still rolling dice with your buds killing monsters.

But a quick checklist of differences;

-More feats in your career, but less powerful overall
-No base attack or base saves. This has basically been replaced by every class getting to add 1/2 of their level to stuff.
-You no longer roll fort/ref/will saves. These statistics are now a pure defense the monsters roll against, like Armor Class.
-Its easier to recover hitpoints.
-All classes have a set of powers to use, as well as some basic class features they only get at level 1. The powers revolve around their role (striker, defender, leader, or controller), though each class ultimately has their own little special niche (if you know what I mean).



Another important thing is that it is a lot harder to play some races because the rules for monsters are now different from the rules for PC's and because some races were retconned.

Almost everything in 4e follows a very specific template which makes it easy for players to modify and create. Thus you can play just about any race with a little bit of fluff change. Thats not even to talk about how many of the hard-to-play races are now pretty much base. Minotaurs and Gnolls for example. Also no LA or any of that junk, thank goodness. So in my opinion, it is much much easier to play any exotic race in 4e.

[Kurald Galain]

These give non-casters something to do other than say "I swing my sword/axe/hammer/etc. at the enemy again"

Interestingly this has never been a problem in my 1E, 2E or 3E games. I've always seen fighters and other weapon-based characters do fun stuff like jump on tables, chop down chandeliers, and so forth.

(and I'm sure there are DMs that don't let you do that, but then in 4E there are also DMs that will tell you you need a power for that, so this is basically the same in any edition)

[Jack_Banzai]

Interestingly this has never been a problem in my 1E, 2E or 3E games. I've always seen fighters and other weapon-based characters do fun stuff like jump on tables, chop down chandeliers, and so forth.

(and I'm sure there are DMs that don't let you do that, but then in 4E there are also DMs that will tell you you need a power for that, so this is basically the same in any edition)

I knew somebody was going to say this, but it does allow different options besides simply flavor or improvised weaponry. And you can still perform acrobatic stunts and/or feats of strength.

[oxybe]

page 42 of the 4th ed DMG is pretty much a guide on how to use "stunting" and tells you to let players pull off that crazy "jump off table, cut down chandelier and swing across the room to dropkick the baddie" stuff. it has really nice chart with variable DCs and Damage based on character level and difficulty depending on what kind of action you're doing.

now, yes, this does require the GM to give you the get-go, but that kind of crazy stuff always is, regardless of edition (or game really).

it just gives your fighter-types mechanical differentiation in their attacks, is all.

[TheEmerged]

My advice? Don't try to "convert". Learn it as a new system.

Most of the specifics have already been mentioned (no more armor penalty for spellcasting is the only one I don't see).

[Froogleyboy]

My advice? Don't try to "convert". Learn it as a new system.

Most of the specifics have already been mentioned (no more armor penalty for spellcasting is the only one I don't see).

Wait wait wait! I could have a wizard wearing full plate armor who can chuck fireballs at people without a penalty? Hehehe yes . . . .

[RTGoodman]

Wait wait wait! I could have a wizard wearing full plate armor who can chuck fireballs at people without a penalty? Hehehe yes . . . .

Theoretically, yes, but remember - you can add Dex OR Int to your AC, but only when wearing light armor. So yeah, you could, as a Wizard, spend the feats to get up to wearing full plate, but you're wasting a lot of AC, most likely.

Your best option is to stick with Cloth or MAYBE upgrade to Leather, though Hide's certainly possible if you're willing to invest a bunch of points into Str and Con. (The proficiency feat requires both of them to be 13 or higher.)

[Kylarra]

Wait wait wait! I could have a wizard wearing full plate armor who can chuck fireballs at people without a penalty? Hehehe yes . . . ."No penalty" is defined as using 4 feats (the armor proficiency chain) and requiring 15 str/con, but yes, it is possible.


Your best option is to stick with Cloth or MAYBE upgrade to Leather, though Hide's certainly possible if you're willing to invest a bunch of points into Str and Con. (The proficiency feat requires both of them to be 13 or higher.)There's really no reason not to upgrade to leather. +2 AC for just a feat at no other cost is nice.

[spamoo]

IIRC, this would take four feats and cost you your Int bonus to AC. So as a wizard it would probably be more practical to use cloth armor. Though other casters who don't generally have high Dex or Int would benefit quite a bit from this (fullplate Draconic Sorcerer anyone?).

Edit: double ninja'd

[Kylarra]

IIRC, this would take four feats and cost you your Int bonus to AC. So as a wizard it would probably be more practical to use cloth armor. Though other casters who don't generally have high Dex or Int would benefit quite a bit from this (fullplate Draconic Sorcerer anyone?).

Edit: double ninja'dDraconic/Cosmic sorcerers can add STR to AC in place of DEX or INT, so not them no. :smalltongue:

[RTGoodman]

Draconic/Cosmic sorcerers can add STR to AC in place of DEX or INT, so not them no. :smalltongue:

Yeah, but the Hide option's still there, and they can qualify pretty easily. And even cooler if you fluff it as dragonhide.

[Kylarra]

Yeah, but the Hide option's still there, and they can qualify pretty easily. And even cooler if you fluff it as dragonhide.I was more responding to the fullplate comment, but you're absolutely right. Hide is definitely an option there.

[Mordokai]

Does 4e even have Fireball? Or an equivalent of it? Granted, what little I've looked over powers, I've put almost no thought to wizards, so there just may be such power, but I'll be damned if I've noticed it.

[RTGoodman]

Fireball is a 5th-level Wizard daily spell. There are other "fireball-esque" spells out there though, too, from the 1st-level at-will scorching burst to the 29th-level daily power meteor swarm. They all pretty much do some fire damage over a burst. As a Controller, though, you probably want something a little more... controlling.

[kc0bbq]

Does 4e even have Fireball? Or an equivalent of it? Granted, what little I've looked over powers, I've put almost no thought to wizards, so there just may be such power, but I'll be damned if I've noticed it.It's a level 5 daily spell.

Ninja-ed.

And it's plenty controller-y, it wipes out a lot of minions, especially when enlarged and enlarged some more with a staff of the war mage.

[Mordokai]

Thank you, you two!

[kc0bbq]

Thank you, you two!I think it will be a while before most people know all of the powers for all of the classes. There's enough to learn for any classes you're playing yourself.

Makes DMing a bit tough, checking up on players powers. I've had to resort to bringing my laptop + character builder.

First time I've ever been satisfied with character building software that's first party.

[RTGoodman]

And it's plenty controller-y, it wipes out a lot of minions, especially when enlarged and enlarged some more with a staff of the war mage.

Yeah, but I personally wouldn't use a Daily spell to do what an At-Will could do. Scorching burst might be slightly smaller than fireball, but it still does the same thing to minions. If it were a group of minions AND standards, maybe, but otherwise, probably not. I'd rather use my Daily slots on stuff like web, grasp of the grave, or whatnot, that impose conditions and modify the battlefield.

[dragoonsgone]

Yeah, but I personally wouldn't use a Daily spell to do what an At-Will could do. Scorching burst might be slightly smaller than fireball, but it still does the same thing to minions. If it were a group of minions AND standards, maybe, but otherwise, probably not. I'd rather use my Daily slots on stuff like web, grasp of the grave, or whatnot, that impose conditions and modify the battlefield.

Yea I would say Fireball is more for a war wizard. Maybe not the most effective style, but fun in its own way.

[Kaziel]

As a Controller, though, you probably want something a little more... controlling.As kc0bbq pointed out, a controller is actually perfect in using burst and blast attacks. While their role is (as the name implies) made for placing effects that limit their attacks and movements aka controlling, they are also built around the idea that you will face larger groups (especially of minions) and you need someone who can effectly wipe them out a bunch one shot, or at least burn then down faster than one at a time.

EDIT: Ninja'd! And I see what you mean, though I will point out two things:
1) Daily AOEs obviously hit harder. In cases where you're trying to take out a number of full enemies and not just mow down minions, having a harder hitting AOE than 1d6 or whatever Scorching Burst does is quite nice.

2) Daily AOEs generally (IIRC) hit larger areas. If the group is spread out, your Burst 1 AOE will maybe hit two, if you're lucky. OTOH, a burst three can hit a lot more, minion or full enemy.

EDIT2: Not saying "OMG if you don't take Fireball, you're doing it wrong!", just that there are always benefits to taking different powers.

[The New Bruceski]

One thing about controllers: you can control the battlefield through status effects (cold spells in particular do this for Mages) or through affecting how the enemy moves around the battlefield. This second one can be done by zone effects, hazardous terrain, but it can also be done through burst/blast spells. If the enemy knows you have a fireball ready, they're not going to WANT to get close to each other, which can help keep your party from getting swarmed. And if they do group up, you're ready to show them why they shouldn't.

[greenknight]

EDIT2: Not saying "OMG if you don't take Fireball, you're doing it wrong!", just that there are always benefits to taking different powers.

Although Fireball in particular doesn't seem all that good a choice, when you compare it to the alternatives even in the PHB. You've got Icy Grasp, which can be sustained (doing damage over several rounds) and can immobilise a target, or at least force the target to waste actions. Then there's Stinking Cloud, which blocks line of sight, does damage over multiple rounds (including minion killing auto damage), can be sustained, affects an area and is movable. And because of the way it works, it effectively does 2d10 + 2*Int mod damage to any creature hit when it's created, or half that (even to minions) if the attack misses. That's more than you're likely to do with a Fireball. Finally, you have Web, which affects an area, creates difficult terrain, can immobilise foes and lasts until the end of the encounter without needing to be sustained. Personally, I consider Icy Grasp and Stinking Cloud to be the top two level 5 Wizard Daily picks.

There's also the earlier level fire based attacks to consider, such as Scorching Burst and Flaming Sphere. While it's good to have some fire based attacks, you don't want to rely on it too heavily in case you run into fire resistant foes.

[warrl]

Theoretically, yes, but remember - you can add Dex OR Int to your AC, but only when wearing light armor. So yeah, you could, as a Wizard, spend the feats to get up to wearing full plate, but you're wasting a lot of AC, most likely.

Not only that, you're also wasting feats. A wizard is SUPPOSED to stand back behind the fighter; between the wizard's area attacks that impose conditions, and the fighter's weaponry, the wizard should rarely be subject to a melee attack. So what's the good armor for?

(That said, it is NOT the case that the wizard should NEVER be in melee. If your wizard rarely gets touched at all but the fighter practically dies every encounter, then you get one slightly-nastier encounter and the wizard is in a melee he has no idea how to deal with, hiding behind a dead fighter. Better for the fighter to occasionally let an attacker through to the wizard, then flank him. Use healing surges as a guide: when the fighter has used about half of his, the wizard should also have used about half of his.)

[erikun]

Not only that, you're also wasting feats. A wizard is SUPPOSED to stand back behind the fighter; between the wizard's area attacks that impose conditions, and the fighter's weaponry, the wizard should rarely be subject to a melee attack. So what's the good armor for?
With a decent INT/DEX, you can easily have the same AC in Hide as you would in Full Plate.

Still, you have a point. A wizard could get Leather Proficiency, Hide Proficiency, Hide Specialization, Small Shield Proficiency, Large Shield Proficiency, and Second Implement (Staff of Defense). However, by that time, you've spent so many feats on AC that you aren't as good as controlling as, say, a more focused wizard.

[greenknight]

the wizard should rarely be subject to a melee attack. So what's the good armor for?

Ranged attacks that target AC. Although by standing in the back, the Wizard is less exposed than the front liners, so improving AC isn't something I'd recommend spending a lot of effort on.


That said, it is NOT the case that the wizard should NEVER be in melee.

I'm playing a Wizard and only a short while ago I used the character to provide flanking for an ally. But in general I'd say the Wizard should avoid melee. If engaged in melee, the options for most Wizards are:


Make a melee basic attack. Most Wizards won't have the Melee Training or Weapon Expertise feats, so they won't do too well with this.

Make a Close attack. This is certainly doable if you've planned for it, especially with attacks like Thunderwave. But sometimes it can be difficult to make an attack which affects your foes without harming your allies. Especially if you're also providing flanking.

Make an Area or Ranged attack and take the AoOs. That's just risking damage for the sake of it.


You could move your Wizard into melee at the end of one round, and then shift out of melee before making an attack on the next round. That can work, but it can also expose your Wizard to more attacks than he or she can handle if the Wizard hasn't gone the full AC route.

[Aron Times]

A wizard who succeeds on an Aid Another roll grants a +4 attack bonus to the teammate he is flanking with, a much better use of a standard action than a melee basic attack.

[greenknight]

A wizard who succeeds on an Aid Another roll grants a +4 attack bonus to the teammate he is flanking with, a much better use of a standard action than a melee basic attack.

You can only do that if the ally is in melee reach. So unless the wizard is using a reach weapon (neither the dagger nor the staff qualify), that's not going to help with flanking.

[Artanis]

There's another reason to increase AC as well: as the saying goes, no plan survives contact with the enemy. No matter how careful you are, sooner or later, a big, painful melee type is going to get past the front lines and start trying to smack the hell out of the wizard. When they do, the +2 AC from wearing leather can make the difference between life and death.

And besides, it's not like there's that many better heroic tier feats out there :smalltongue:

[Jack_Banzai]

My piece of advice is if you're worried about getting killed, get your Wizard (and any other ranged character, really) a Cloak of Distortion. -5 to ranged attack rolls against your character from attacks 5 or more squares away? Hello! That is great protection for a pretty low price. Even a +1 Cloak of Distortion has that benefit.

[Yakk]

There's really no reason not to upgrade to leather. +2 AC for just a feat at no other cost is nice.Well, there is a reason. Many cloth enchantments are really nice for arcane casters -- while leather enchantments are rarely so nice.