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AzazelAshheart
2009-08-14, 06:41 PM
I dunno where to start >.<

I need some help with making a character build. The premise is the Anima Mage from ToM, but focuses on Striker based combat using touch attacks and the vestige Ipos.

Any suggestions? I'm slightly new to binders, but I love the idea and the visual flair to it. I don't have a specific level for him, so I thought it would be best to just level it to 20th

Cruiser1
2009-08-14, 08:30 PM
Take the ToM feat Improved Binding! Being able to bind higher level vestiges will allow you to qualify for Anima Mage with only a single level of the Binder class itself needed, meaning you only lose one Wizard caster level during your career.

AzazelAshheart
2009-08-14, 08:37 PM
Intresting, I never thought of that for some reason >.< any suggestions for the arcane side of the build? any advice is appreciated :D

quick_comment
2009-08-14, 08:45 PM
You can go into abjurant champion or jade phoenix mage once you finish anima mage.

Salt_Crow
2009-08-14, 09:03 PM
Yep, Wizard 4/Binder 1 is pretty much the best way of going about AM.

Thurbane
2009-08-14, 09:23 PM
Dread Necromancer (HoH) gets a lot of good touch based attacks, and an innate touch attack...

AzazelAshheart
2009-08-14, 09:24 PM
True ^^

Heres my basic idea of progression:

Binder 1/Sorcerer 4/Anima Mage 10/Jade Phoenix Mage 1/Abjurant Champion 4

I'll have to grab Improved Binder, Martial Study, and Martial Stance. But, including It'll be a human, what feats would work well with this?

Edit: forgot about that class >.< I'll look at it. do you think it would work better than a sorcerer?

Demons_eye
2009-08-14, 10:05 PM
Can a human wizard with 2 flaws and picked the feats Precocious Apprentice, Bind Vestige, and Improved Binding feat can take it at the 2nd level?

Edit: He would use the 4th feat for some metemagic feat

sofawall
2009-08-14, 10:10 PM
Isn't there a skill point limit? People keep giving examples with 5 levels, whether they're Sorcerer or Wizard.

Also, why would you take it as Binder 1/Anima Mage 1? You have no spellcasting to progress.

AzazelAshheart
2009-08-14, 10:11 PM
0_0 I never thought of that. Its entirely possible.

Though this might all be in vain, the solo campaign I wanted this for is being ignored. But whichever, brainstorming is fun I assume.

Edit: There isn't, it just demands you be non-good, cast 2nd level arcane, and can bind 2nd lv. vestiges I believe

Edit x2: I stand corrected >.<

Demons_eye
2009-08-14, 10:13 PM
Skill requirements are 4 in both Intimidate and Knowledge the Planes

Also in my exp: it was Human wizard 1

sofawall
2009-08-14, 10:17 PM
O...k... so why would you take Anima Mage instead of more wizard?

Also, you need level 5 to get the intimidate ranks as a wizard.

AzazelAshheart
2009-08-14, 10:19 PM
Dont attack please, its pointless.

To beat that requirement I suggest using the last feat from the 2 flaws human to get Able Learner, problem solved~

Demons_eye
2009-08-14, 10:21 PM
A human wizard1/Binder1 with 2 flaws and picked the feats Precocious Apprentice, Bind Vestige, Extend, and Improved Binding feat can take it at the 3rd level.

The PcR ups spellcasting so its as good as any other PcR

sofawall
2009-08-14, 10:22 PM
And yet it still remains weaker than a pure wizard... Those feats you ate up there don't do much.

Also, (bearing in mind I'm AFB) can you use improved binding with bind vestige?

EDIT: Well, most things, to be fair, are weaker than a normal wizard. Let's change that to: Weaker than a normal Anima Mage.

AzazelAshheart
2009-08-14, 10:24 PM
Anima Mage levels up both binding and spellcasting for its whole 10 levels, thats y its so lovable. It also is very abusive of metamagic, which is good ^^

Edit: yes, you can use those two feats together

Demons_eye
2009-08-14, 10:26 PM
You lose one caster level witch is offset by Orange Ion Stone. Bam your better then a normal wizard. And Like they said "abusive of metamagic" Way better then normal wizard.

sofawall
2009-08-14, 10:37 PM
First off, Ioun stone does not offset a level lost of wizard. Second, let me add up what we need here:

Binder 1/Wizard 1/Anima Mage 1

Feats:
1: Improved binding
1f: Extend Spell
1f: Precocious Apprentice

Wait, what's this? We can't take both Improved binding and Precocious Apprentice at the same level, as one needs Spellcasting and one needs Soul Bind.

Let's try again...

Wizard 1/Binder1/Anima Mage 1

1: Extend spell
1f: Precocious Apprentice
1f: Bind Vestige
1h: Improved Bind Vestige

There we go!

Of course, we virtually waste 2 feats, so we only slightly win. But I guess it is early entry...

Glimbur
2009-08-14, 10:42 PM
Can we cheese these with kobolds with floating sorc levels that aren't really levels? I'm far too lazy to look up the pre-reqs for Anima Mage, and I suspect we won't have the feats necessary for this silliness.

Demons_eye
2009-08-14, 10:42 PM
A human wizard1/Binder1 with 2 flaws and picked the feats Precocious Apprentice, Bind Vestige, Extend, and Improved Binding feat can take it at the 3rd level.

The PcR ups spellcasting so its as good as any other PcR

Please read my post.

Human-Extend Spell
First-Precocious Apprentice
Flaw one- Bind Vestige
Flaw two- Improved Binding

Also I was taking about the 20th caster level your right in the respect that this wizard is worse that he gets 1 less 8th and 9th level spell

AzazelAshheart
2009-08-14, 10:43 PM
you GET soul bind out of bind vestige, your complete curving around that simple fact. I understand your trying to defend...whatever it is you are defending, but try and make a logical argument please

sofawall
2009-08-14, 10:48 PM
Well, you two managed to say exactly what I said...

I'm saying I'd rather wait a few levels than waste 2 feats.

Also, no, bind Vestige most certainly does not give the Soul Bind class feature. You can bind a vestige, but you do not get Soul bind. Thought I'd clear that up.

EDIT: My previous post was a stream of consciousness post, if it doesn't make any sense.

EDIT2: Wait a tic, you're both wrong. You can't use Bind Vestige with Binder. You need to be at least level 3 to qualify, with level 4 being the first level of Anima Mage.

EDIT 3: Or, you could do it, but without a level in Binder, there's little reason to bother, take another Prestige, use the (3?) feats to qualify for something else.

AzazelAshheart
2009-08-14, 10:52 PM
Whichever >.< no need to argue really, either way has its ups and downs

the loss of feats is balanced by the plus for both spellcasting and binding, while the other is the opposite

Edit: No, it demands 2nd lv vestiges and spells, which the feats provide. We've covered this I though -_-

Demons_eye
2009-08-14, 10:52 PM
Witch does not matter because you go Wizard 1/Binder 1 you gain soul bind. Also you managed to say what I said Because I posted it before you. The point of the build was to gain all of the benefits and enter early regardless is the feats are wasted.

Sigh.... If you used the feat to enter you can still chose to advance binder. Its like PcR that let you advance one spell casting even if its not the one you used to enter with..

sofawall
2009-08-14, 10:54 PM
Did you read my edits? I didn't want to double post, so I editted a few times.

EDIT (I do this too much...): You can't take Precocious Apprentice until you have a spellcaster level, and you cant take improved binding without a level in binder. You cannot do both at level 1.

Sure, you can qualify at level 1 with feats, but you unqualify the instant you take binder.

AzazelAshheart
2009-08-14, 10:57 PM
:P this is counter-productive, all I'm trying to do is create a powerful fighten mage using a spellcaster/binder build. I understand both points of each side, but this isn't helping

sofawall
2009-08-14, 10:58 PM
Well, one side it trying to be an Anima Mage at level 3, but that's illegal. gotta wait till level 4.

And in waiting till level 4, you save a feat. Strange, isn't it? If you wait till level 5, you save 2 feats!

Demons_eye
2009-08-14, 10:58 PM
wow... Improved binding needs Bind Vestige. And it only advances that feat.

Again with

Wizard 1/Binder 1
Human-Extend Spell
First-Precocious Apprentice
Flaw one- Bind Vestige
Flaw two- Improved Binding

With the feats you can enter but it advances the binders level



Edit:
The point of the build was to gain all of the benefits and enter early regardless is the feats are wasted.

sofawall
2009-08-14, 10:59 PM
Wow, again, you lose bind vestige if you take a level in binder. You therefore don't qualify, as your binder level goes down to 1. Seriously.

EDIT: The earliest legal entry is Wizard 2/Binder 1/Anima Mage 1

AzazelAshheart
2009-08-14, 11:02 PM
{Scrubbed}

sofawall
2009-08-14, 11:05 PM
Special: Characters who have the ability to bind vestiges through other means (such as the soul bind class feature) cannot take this feat. If you become a binder after taking this feat, you lose its benefit.

The feat disagrees.

AzazelAshheart
2009-08-14, 11:07 PM
Thats for bind vestige, not improved binding. It might not help you believe, but I have the book out right now and that is what it says

sofawall
2009-08-14, 11:10 PM
When you bind a vestige through the Bind Vestige feat...

Wait a minute, how are you able to bind the vestige with the bind vestige feat if you lose the benefit of it?

AzazelAshheart
2009-08-14, 11:16 PM
Lets see...I' going to write it out so I don't have to over type.

Binder lv. 1 + Improved Binding = effective binder lv. 4 fo purposes of vestiges. this allows the use of lv. 2 vestiges. Wizard plus Precocious Apprentice has a simmilar effect, allowing 2nd lv. spells.

Binder has Intimidate as a class skill

Be neutral or evil, with Binder 1/Wizard 1 and your golden

Am I missing something? ^^

sofawall
2009-08-14, 11:18 PM
Yes, you are.


How are you taking both Improved Binding and Precocious Apprentice at level 1?

One needs Soul Bind, one needs a caster level. You can only have one of those at level one, unless you've mysteriously gone gestalt on me (but even then it wouldn't work, as Anima Mage is dual-progression, a no-no in Gestalt).


Therefore, you need your 3rd level feat. Therefore, entry at level 4. Not 3.

AzazelAshheart
2009-08-14, 11:23 PM
{Scrubbed}

Berserk Monk
2009-08-14, 11:23 PM
For a second I thought it said Anime Mage Help, in which case I would have had to excommunicate your face from your head.

AzazelAshheart
2009-08-14, 11:26 PM
XP true, but I'm not that insane~

sofawall
2009-08-14, 11:28 PM
No, you don't. This isn't an assumption that I would be playing from lv. 1-20, this is making the character. And I have yet to find a dm who is such an ******* that he would tell me to do what your doing. I understand its realistic, but its nitpicky and annoying.

Now unless you have something PRODUCTIVE to say or help with, be quiet and get out
I was overly aggressive here, let me fix my mistake.
Wait, so you get to ignore the text of a feat because it inconveniences you? YOU ARE WRONG IN YOUR INTERPRETATION.

If you had responded with "Oh, that's silly, maybe I can ask my DM to houserule it" or "Hmm, it looks like you're right, glad I didn't base my character around this and have my DM tell me it's illegal" I would have been fine, but ignoring the text of a feat (which isn't even ambiguous, it's very clear and explicit) is munchkining. YOU ARE WRONG. EDIT: And then going and cursing at me because I actually looked it up and you were wrong? Why would you expect me to assume there were houserules? I design characters that work, not ones that are illegal.[/edit]

Also, what do mean, this isn't a character you're playing from 1-20? Why does that matter? He still has to legally qualify for everything at the level he takes it.

"Yes, I took Archmage at level 2, but I qualify for it at level 13, and we're starting at level 14, so it's all good, right?"

Keld Denar
2009-08-14, 11:31 PM
Courtesy link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/announcement.php?a=1)

<3

sofawall
2009-08-14, 11:32 PM
Thank you, upon re-reading I got a little aggressive. Let me fix it a bit.

AzazelAshheart
2009-08-14, 11:35 PM
Edit: okay, you were right. I just need to calm down...

*sighs* I am sorry

I understand your point, but like I've said before: I haven't ever played with a dm who has ruled that a choose feats based off what lv you received it from. That might seem weird, but I've been playing for about three years now, and have played in about fifteen groups outside the internet. So you might think its stupid and munchkining, but If i can do what I do with expert players and dms without an argument, then I have a hard time wrapping my head around your point of view

sofawall
2009-08-14, 11:38 PM
Wait, can you explain that again, sorry.

You can take a feat without qualifying, as long as you eventually qualify?

EDIT: No problem, I understand. We both got a little aggressive.

AzazelAshheart
2009-08-14, 11:43 PM
Yea ^^ I see your logic, I just feel it isn't neccicary to pick your feats the moment you get them IF your starting a campaign in the later levels

*shrugs* thats how I've been taught, but I'm open to polite criticism at any point

sofawall
2009-08-14, 11:48 PM
Yeah, going straight by the PHB, you can't save feats or skill points. It's not a bad houserule, if no one abuses it, but it could be fairly easily twisted to the point of shattering.

EDIT: But then, so can most of 3.5 :D

AzazelAshheart
2009-08-14, 11:52 PM
Very True ^_^ I try not to powerplay or minmax, honestly this just started with just one idea: I want to cut someone up with touch spelling claws and be an enchanter~

sofawall
2009-08-14, 11:54 PM
I would say totemist, but I don't know if you know that system.

Plus, it isn't as easy to get into.

AzazelAshheart
2009-08-14, 11:58 PM
heard of it, Imma go and steal the book from my girl friend now :D

I just sorta took the idea from the anima mage's picture: it screamed "I'm going to make you my slave, or blow you to bits"

sofawall
2009-08-15, 12:02 AM
Heh. I actually have little mechanical reason to advise soulcaster (is that the name?), I just prefer Incarnum to Binders.

AzazelAshheart
2009-08-15, 12:04 AM
I'm okay with either, it was just that Binders had the sinister feel at the time I thought of the build before

Keld Denar
2009-08-15, 12:17 AM
Or you could just play some sort of gishy caster and nab Abberant Blood, Inhuman Reach, and Deepspawn from Lords of Madness. This gives you +5 reach, 2 tenticle attacks, and a +4 bonus to grapple. Good for all your wierd wizardy hentai fantasies! Deliver touch spells with your glowing tenticles of DOOM!

Cause seriously...what ISN'T made better with tenticles?

*This ad brought to you buy the Cthulu Enthusiests of America and new Cthocolate flavored Fhtagen Dazs. Its Cthocolatey!!!

sofawall
2009-08-15, 12:20 AM
Totemists have tentacles, too!

Yeah, I just got Incarnum, so...

AzazelAshheart
2009-08-15, 12:21 AM
lol XD Its a great idea, but that doesn't help with diplomacy~ unless the princess is into that...hehe