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Korivan
2009-08-14, 11:53 PM
Just out of curiosity, what kind of monatary value do you place on magic items? Do you keep it as per the published books? Do you mark it up, not feeling that thousands of gold (more then 100 or commoners make in a year) is not enough? Do you charge less? How often do you throw in magic items in random treasure?

As a player and a DM, I've seen everything from less then 50 magic items in entire existance on a whole world. (This was 2nd edition where magic was even more needed for groups. We didnt have no fancy DR to try to overcome, when a creature was immune to weapons, it was IMMUNE. Nor did we have VOP. AND WE LIKED IT THAT WAY!!!) I've seen magic as commonly bought and sold to events like this were common place.

Scene: A human male, elven female, and two halfing adventures walk into a building.

Store Clerk: Hi! Wealcome to McArcane'n More. Can I take your order?
Human: Ya, can I get 2 belts of battle, a ring of protection +5, boots of speed, 4 healing potions, and oh ya, do runestaffs still come with the childrens meals?
Elf:Honey, your diet.
Human: Fine, make one of those healing potions a minor please.

Ok, maybe not that bad, but still.

Elfin
2009-08-15, 12:12 AM
I like making magic items very rare, but all very potent. My players might go through all the low levels without seeing so much as a Cloak of Resistance +1, but then while at 7th level unearth a +4 sword or the like.
Gives magic items a much greater "wow" factor.
I do tend to use a lot of special substances, though- mithral, adamantine, cold iron, darksteel, etc.

sofawall
2009-08-15, 12:15 AM
Magic Mart. WBL.

Mongoose87
2009-08-15, 12:26 AM
Most of the campaigns I've played in give them out like free candy, but I really like it better if they're more rare - it makes them much more special.

TooManySecrets
2009-08-15, 12:26 AM
Depends on what sort of game I'm going for.

If it's more towards the "dungeon punk" level of stuff, then magic items are common, at least the weaker variations.

If I'm not, however, I try to make magic items both a) rare and b) cool. The rare part is pretty easy, but it's the cool part which is hard. Just giving them weird and wonderful abilities isn't enough, you also have to give them interesting stories.

But, let's face it, players often have blinders to anything that doesn't have to do with the group and, more specifically, their character. If you write out an intricate 20 page background for the Gronk-Slaying Sword of Power, your players are probably going to go "Powerful magic sword, got it!"

Ah, but why hand out magic items? We know what the wealth by level is, so why not have the weapons gained by the player's own actions?

The paladin slays a major demon in single one-on-one combat. With his last ounce of strength, he stabs his sword into the fiend and calls out to the heavens above. And the heavens answer. Power flows through his body and through the sword. Now the sword burns with white-hot flames, the essence of demonic flames purified to serve a higher purpose.

The character goes out of his way to find a famous swordsmith who has retired. Through a series of adventures and philosophical debates, he is able to convince the swordsmith that his need for a weapon is great and the swordsmith makes one last weapon. "If on your journey you should encounter God, then God will be cut".

You could make a weapon with a pre-built backstory, but you should make the player earn it. "This is the Gronk-Slaying Sword of Power, wielded by the demigod Zadriel and passed down through the generations. I am the last of his descendants, and now I seek a worthy heir to this sword. Whoever can impress me will be the new holder of the Gronk-Slaying Sword of Power!"

Or even just something as simple as the fact that the wizard has been lugging around this one staff for so long a time, that it's started to have residual arcane energy in it (and when the wizard realizes this, you might have an adventure that he goes on to unlock the full arcane potential of the staff or whatever).

And there's nothing preventing you from doing the same in a "dungeon punk" setting. While the common magic items are common, powerful items are still rare so why not make them special?

I guess my point is, common or rare, that doesn't inherently make magic items special or meaningful to the players. It's everything that surrounds the magic item that does.

tyckspoon
2009-08-15, 12:32 AM
If I'm running Generic Psuedo-Medieval Fantasy, I do it more or less by the Book- or more accurately, the Tome as per the Economicon. Minor magic is readily available for gold (or other liquid assets, as even a 'cheap' 1,000gp item represents a rather silly amount of raw gold.) and priced at book value or even cheaper, given the ease of creation and usefulness of the stuff when going by RAW. Moderate magics can be bought with gold alone, but expect to pay significantly over book value for the most effective items- this is verging on serious power-signifier stuff, and anybody who has one is probably making a play to be in the big leagues and won't give it up easily (although anybody who already *is* in the big leagues will give it up almost as easily as minor magic, since they can have about as much of this stuff as they want. They probably use it to convince lower-level people to do their errands, in fact.)

When you get into major magic, nobody trades in gold or gold-equivalent goods any more. This stuff you have to work for- you trade in favors, or souls, or raw bits of magic, or.. pretty much anything you could describe as being worth more than any amount of gold. These items actually take a significant amount of time and power to create, and getting somebody to sell them to you requires something to trade that is worth that power. So instead of looting a dragon's horde for the sake of getting enough hard cash to upgrade their swords, your players may instead need to Mind Rape the dragon for X gp worth of secrets to trade in an information broker's society. This has the pleasant side effect of making it fairly safe for the players to acquire really significant treasures, since they can then go on to use it to do nifty stuff in the world instead of worrying about new magic stuff (say the book says it takes about 500,000 GP to pay peasants to build you a castle. Without something like the Economicon scheme, no sane PC will ever pay for that.)

If I'm *not* running GPMF, I do whatever fits the tone of the world I'm trying to evoke. It does tend to easier availability of magic just because D&D is built that way, however- if I want rare magic and special items, I do it in systems that aren't quite so obsessed with stuff.

Doc Roc
2009-08-15, 12:33 AM
Buy them, commission them, maybe do a small quest, or go to Sigil and hunt down the excellent items you desire. It's really no biggie. More player control is almost always a huge win.

Doc Roc
2009-08-15, 12:35 AM
Magic Mart. WBL.

You mean Sigil, right, berk?

BlueWizard
2009-08-15, 12:39 AM
Only wealthy wizards have magic shoppes in my world, and even then they have their own overhead they must look into, that includes keeping their wares safe.

sofawall
2009-08-15, 12:39 AM
Well, I prefer to think of it as... Every single town has a shop that sells every single magic item in existence, as well as having infinite gold to buy unwanted items with. Yes, even that little 3 building hamlet.


Also, has anyone noticed that upon describing a town, if you even obliquely mention a blacksmith, players will go there, immediately? Even before the Inn?

PinkysBrain
2009-08-15, 12:48 AM
Well generally they are encumbered from carrying around all the full plates from their beaten foes.

Deepblue706
2009-08-15, 12:48 AM
I don't really like the "Magic Mart" idea, but I'm rather certain the game's balance requires everyone getting magic items (it's especially important in the case of non-casters). And, I price them according to the RAW because I'm not entirely sure of how to compensate for drastic changes.

Generally, I have most exceptional equipment either found, or acquired from very powerful people (lords, very successful merchants, awesome wizards). I think if you find a way to present it better than "Magic Mart", the players won't really care about the rarity of items (none of my players have ever complained, anyway). Perhaps merely suggesting rarity is good enough, if they're into that. I mean, Heroes are rare too. Heroes doing rare things, finding rare things...it all goes together. And stuff.

Hawriel
2009-08-15, 12:59 AM
Also, has anyone noticed that upon describing a town, if you even obliquely mention a blacksmith, players will go there, immediately? Even before the Inn?

Yes. It doesnt matter if that blacksmith is in a small village he damn well will be able to craft weapon and armor. Not only that but he will have greatswords and fullplate ready and available. ITs not like he would have to spend is days making things his village actualy needs. Things like nails, horse shues, barrel hoops, tools, pots & pans, spades and the like. The closest this village blacksmith would make to an actualy weapon would be arrow heads, knives, spear heads, and axe and hatchet heads.

Doc Roc
2009-08-15, 01:05 AM
Solution:
Make villages so boring that people stick to the big cities.

OR

Run settings where large cities are accessible, fun, and interesting.

Fishy
2009-08-15, 01:17 AM
A weird, half-formed and poorly thought out alternative to Magic Mart follows.

I've got a character who, through Truenaming, the Fiendbinder class and DM leeway, 'owns' a low-level demon with the Possession abilities outlined in the Eberron Campaign Setting.

Possessing fiends, if they cooperate, can be used as stat-boosting items, or they can possess objects and turn them into magic weapons and armor. Also, they come with a handful of useful spell-like abilities, and most of their effects get more powerful as the fiend gains HD.

Finangle it right, and I bet you could use a fiend or three to replace all of the boring and 'mundane' magic items that everyone needs.

How about a game where the PCs make a deal with a devil? Instead of levelling up, going to the local blacksmith, selling your +1 flaming sword and buying a +1 shocking burst sword, your fiendish companion who's been taking a portion of your soul and grows in strength with you, becomes powerful enough to offer you a new service, if you'd care to re-negotiate their 'agreement' for another 'small favor'...

Or if you suddenly and desperately find yourself needing a ghost touch kobold-bane sword: "Oooh, that's not in our contract, Master, but I'm sure we can work something out..." One round of 'willing' possession for each round of emergency improvised magic item?

Morandir Nailo
2009-08-15, 01:26 AM
In my games they're around, but most carry a drawback/curse of some sort. Either they do damage if you're the wrong alignment, or they attempt to take control of you, or using their powers forces a series of saves lest you turn into something nasty. I have to say, adding curses to items gives players a healthy fear of the arcane - they're distrustful of everything they come across now. They've even started burning spellbooks - even the MU!

There are few items that just grant a bonus, all magic swords are intelligent (having a demon or spirit trapped within), and they aren't sold by anyone, as no one is willing to buy something that is probably cursed. The trick is that they aren't just laying around - if they're in civilized lands they're already in the treasure-houses of the rich and powerful, and if they're in the wilderness, well, there's all those monsters to worry about.

I'm running OD&D, so items aren't needed like they are in 3.x. The group (all lvl 3 or 4) currently has between them a +2 sword (with a host of useful powers but an insanely high Ego and the ability to speak - and boy is it opinionated), a Cloak of Resistance, a spear that can shoot lasers (a piece of space alien tech), and a ring which gives the wearer psionic powers, but forces a save each time one is used - fail enough of them, and you become a Wraith. The guy wearing it doesn't know that yet, though. :belkar:

Mor

TheCountAlucard
2009-08-15, 01:36 AM
Generally, my shopkeepers have a very small amount of magic gear available, but the PCs can usually request an item to be made, provided they make some down payments. One of the PCs even made his own magic item that lets him bless water twice a day without risking heavy metal poisoning (I mean, five pounds of powdered silver to turn one pint of water into holy water?!? :smalleek:).

jmbrown
2009-08-15, 01:50 AM
I've got an entire excel document with complicated charts and tables that calculate availability, tax, supply and demand, and haggling. Generally I charge a 10% sales tax on magic with this price fluctuating depending on where you are (evil societies charge 50% tax on magic!). Minor items usually have an additional 10% increase and this triples for moderate and major magic items further modified based on the town you buy it from. I roll a secret charisma check against the shop keepers charisma to determine discounts.

Its long and complicated but I like the simulation feel of it. One of my first campaigns in 3E had the players buying some thirty thousand worth of gold from a single shop keeper in a large coastal town. They left for a week and came back to find half the town owned by the shop keeper they purchased stuff from and everything was more expensive because a single person now controlled the means of production.

I think they ended up burning down his warehouse and nearly killing the guy. Ah, good times.

Knaight
2009-08-15, 01:55 AM
I tend to avoid having a lot of magic items, and they certainly aren't available to buy, at least in most settings. The ones that remain are very unique, very cool, and never have a focus on damage. Odds are that even in fantasy games one or two PCs have magic items at all, and very few NPCs have them. But I don't play D&D if I can avoid it, and there are exceptions.

Kami2awa
2009-08-15, 03:38 AM
Well, I prefer to think of it as... Every single town has a shop that sells every single magic item in existence, as well as having infinite gold to buy unwanted items with. Yes, even that little 3 building hamlet.


Also, has anyone noticed that upon describing a town, if you even obliquely mention a blacksmith, players will go there, immediately? Even before the Inn?

Surely a "Magic Mart" would have to be like Fort Knox; even a small shop would have hundreds of thousands of gp-worth of stuff in it. In a world were people can turn invisible, walk through walls, mind-control guards and otherwise enter secure places easily, protecting it is going to be hard.

PinkysBrain
2009-08-15, 03:40 AM
In Eberron you could just have a central warehouse, magical transportation through the banking system is cheap and quick.

lord_khaine
2009-08-15, 03:46 AM
risking heavy metal poisoning

Silver is pretty unreactive, and not consideret a heavy metal.

that aside, i have either let my players find their loot, or commision the crafting of it from the major temples in large cities.

sofawall
2009-08-15, 03:52 AM
Surely a "Magic Mart" would have to be like Fort Knox; even a small shop would have hundreds of thousands of gp-worth of stuff in it. In a world were people can turn invisible, walk through walls, mind-control guards and otherwise enter secure places easily, protecting it is going to be hard.

I personally make the defenses of every magic shop, big shops have better defenses, little shop have worse defenses.

They have yet to succeed at breaking into a Sharn (Eberron) magic Shop :D

Korivan
2009-08-15, 07:31 AM
Yes. It doesnt matter if that blacksmith is in a small village he damn well will be able to craft weapon and armor. Not only that but he will have greatswords and fullplate ready and available. ITs not like he would have to spend is days making things his village actualy needs. Things like nails, horse shues, barrel hoops, tools, pots & pans, spades and the like. The closest this village blacksmith would make to an actualy weapon would be arrow heads, knives, spear heads, and axe and hatchet heads.

"Gosh darn it, this is not the time for rational thought. I don't care if the new school needs nails. I have 7 sets of full plate mail to unhail before the magic mart closes. I'll take no less then 3/4's book price for them. I'm an adventurer D#*% it, take care of me first."

TheCountAlucard
2009-08-15, 07:58 AM
Yes. It doesn't matter if that blacksmith is in a small village; he damn well will be able to craft weapon and armor. Not only that but he will have greatswords and full plate ready and available. It's not like he would have to spend his days making things his village actualy needs... things like nails, horse shoes, barrel hoops, tools, pots & pans, spades and the like. The closest this village blacksmith would make to an actual weapon would be arrow heads, knives, spear heads, and axe and hatchet heads.By the way, just gotta say, I'm going to have to steal this one of these days. My PCs are actually pretty good about this trope, but I'm still going to need to steal this.

Zergrusheddie
2009-08-15, 09:05 AM
One of the problems with having the Magicmart is that almost every single item you give players will be thrown into one of their "packs", never to see the light of day until they can hock it to buy other stuff. In my group, anything that the DM gives them is instantly given a gold piece value and it ceases to exist. Now, stat adders are some of the most bang for your buck items but it is sort of depressing when the party defeats the evil vampire and treat him like archaeology:

DM: The vampire falls to a pile of dust. You attacked him sooner then he had expected, so his coffin is not that well hidden.
Party: Awesome! We ganked a vampire!
DM: Searching through his possessions, you come across a sword. It radiates magic.
Party Wizard: 1 Identify, coming up!
DM: It is a +1 Flaming Longsword. The blade seems to be weathered, as if it were ancient though it is still in perfect condition. Strange runes encompass the blade though they seem to be inert and -
Party: Ok, so that's 1,000 gold and spare change for each person. Moving on.

You have to wonder if it is even worth giving out special items to the party when they are just going to treat it like a check that is made out for cash. That said, it is better for the players to have a Magicmart because it gives them more options and doesn't have them be completely controlled by the DM of what they are going to get. Having played a Dwarf Fighter who used a Dwarven Waraxe, I know that finding an upgrade in a dungeon is not going to happen unless the DM plants one.

Best of luck y'all!
-Eddie

bosssmiley
2009-08-15, 09:34 AM
Just out of curiosity, what kind of monetary value do you place on magic items?

"You want? What you got?"

Make the players ask what this or that item is worth to them. WBL and item cost are no more than suggestions as far as I'm concerned.

Proven_Paradox
2009-08-15, 10:48 AM
The setting I do most of my DMing in is very high magic. I like high-fantasy, and that means a lot of magic for everyone. In said setting, each nation has a capital city, and within said city, anything worth <= 20,000 gp or so is not going to be hard to find. Look around a bit and you'll probably find stuff work up to 50,000 before I start thinking that you may just not be able to find what you're looking for. The local artificers do a lot of business, you see. And typically, things will go for the prices stated in the books.

Naturally, getting further away from the cities means this changes. Still, anything more than a really small town is probably going to have a Wizard, Artificer, or Cleric (which I houserule to be NPC classes, as these are people who have things to do besides adventuring) who might be willing to deal with them.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-08-15, 02:05 PM
I usually run high-magic worlds, so I tend to cut costs down quite a bit so there isn't such huge price inflation; also, anything from the books is available (though generally on a special-request or mail-order-catalog basis, not in a magic shop). However, the ones in the books are just the common ones, and every nation (and often every city) has some unique items or unique spins on standard items.

For instance, there's a town on the edge of the jungle whose artificers make Couatl's feather tokens instead of Quaall's feather tokens, with very different effects, and another town run by lizardfolk and yuan-ti whose tiny snake amulets and charms carved of ivory have a wide variety of mostly-unheard-of magics. If the PCs identify an item and I don't just name something from the books, they sit up and take notice instead of just selling it at the next town.

Moriato
2009-08-15, 02:32 PM
I really don't like the magic mart world too much. Playing in a campaign like that, when I pick up a +2 flaming burst longsword, it feels more like a sword of 16157.5 gold pieces instead of the awesome weapon it really should be.

Generally I prefer it when straight + items can be bought, but anything with special abilities has to be found.

Yukitsu
2009-08-15, 04:03 PM
Depends on the setting. Some have very few opportunities to but anything more than the occassional + item, while another setting has so much magic, even the food is full of it, and the commoners in the fields can cast cantrips.

Grommen
2009-08-15, 07:45 PM
Yes. It doesnt matter if that blacksmith is in a small village he damn well will be able to craft weapon and armor. Not only that but he will have greatswords and fullplate ready and available. ITs not like he would have to spend is days making things his village actualy needs. Things like nails, horse shues, barrel hoops, tools, pots & pans, spades and the like. The closest this village blacksmith would make to an actualy weapon would be arrow heads, knives, spear heads, and axe and hatchet heads.

You forgot to mention the part where the Blacksmith only sells cursed items. No wait that was "The shifty Guys in Hoods" down the block, no...no that was the caravan that sold stuff off their wagons. O wait it was all three. :smallbiggrin:

Good times against the Dragon Cult that was.

Never buy a "Smokeing Jacket". Just never ok.

Riffington
2009-08-15, 09:09 PM
For those of you who play with Magic Walmarts: why do you have to go to the store to buy stuff? I mean, you have a store here with access (whether it's the owner's or whether he buys it) to the power to create powerful magic items. You presumably have guards there with the power to stop powerful burglars from robbing the place. Given that level of power, wouldn't Teleport be a fairly small business expense (on the level of advertising)? For an extra fee, shouldn't they be able to give you a business card imbued with Sending? (Delivery in 6 rounds or less, or your money back)

Mongoose87
2009-08-15, 09:24 PM
For those of you who play with Magic Walmarts: why do you have to go to the store to buy stuff? I mean, you have a store here with access (whether it's the owner's or whether he buys it) to the power to create powerful magic items. You presumably have guards there with the power to stop powerful burglars from robbing the place. Given that level of power, wouldn't Teleport be a fairly small business expense (on the level of advertising)? For an extra fee, shouldn't they be able to give you a business card imbued with Sending? (Delivery in 6 rounds or less, or your money back)

I like the cut of your jib.

sofawall
2009-08-15, 11:00 PM
Your idea intrigues me.

Minions, make it so!

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-08-15, 11:31 PM
For those of you who play with Magic Walmarts: why do you have to go to the store to buy stuff? I mean, you have a store here with access (whether it's the owner's or whether he buys it) to the power to create powerful magic items. You presumably have guards there with the power to stop powerful burglars from robbing the place. Given that level of power, wouldn't Teleport be a fairly small business expense (on the level of advertising)? For an extra fee, shouldn't they be able to give you a business card imbued with Sending? (Delivery in 6 rounds or less, or your money back)

I already do something like that (you may have noticed a reference to mail-order catalogs in my last post). For the business that uses that system, you have to physically visit the store the first time, and even being allowed in requires two references. Once you've made your first purchase, you get a card holding the arcane marks of the head of marketing and your two references, plus your own arcane mark either cast personally if you're an arcanist or through a wand otherwise.

This card is practically unbreakable without using magic, it's imbued with interplanar sending, scrying, greater teleport, and plane shift capabilities (keyed to the store's franchises in the City of Brass and Sigil only, plus optionally keyed to the customer's base of operations, determined at time of acquisition), and it tracks all your purchases for you. If you've bought enough from them, you get upgraded to a Mithral membership, where they will also handle currency conversions (from or to any desired currency) at no charge, and with yet more purchases you can achieve Adamant membership, which earns you stock in the company and lets you temporarily rent items at no charge as long as they're not charged or otherwise limited-use and are returned intact and fully-functional.

Milskidasith
2009-08-15, 11:41 PM
I already do something like that (you may have noticed a reference to mail-order catalogs in my last post). For the business that uses that system, you have to physically visit the store the first time, and even being allowed in requires two references. Once you've made your first purchase, you get a card holding the arcane marks of the head of marketing and your two references, plus your own arcane mark either cast personally if you're an arcanist or through a wand otherwise.

This card is practically unbreakable without using magic, it's imbued with interplanar sending, scrying, greater teleport, and plane shift capabilities (keyed to the store's franchises in the City of Brass and Sigil only, plus optionally keyed to the customer's base of operations, determined at time of acquisition), and it tracks all your purchases for you. If you've bought enough from them, you get upgraded to a Mithral membership, where they will also handle currency conversions (from or to any desired currency) at no charge, and with yet more purchases you can achieve Adamant membership, which earns you stock in the company and lets you temporarily rent items at no charge as long as they're not charged or otherwise limited-use and are returned intact and fully-functional.

That is an extremely cool system. A question: Is there any limit on rented items? I mean, I know you are trustworthy from all your purchases, but renting out, say, a bunch of epic gear to a level 17 character seems a little bit risky.

MickJay
2009-08-16, 04:45 AM
I guess one wouldn't qualify for Adamant membership at a mere level 17. :smallwink:

Dienekes
2009-08-16, 11:09 AM
I try and play in a gritty pseudo-realistic world. (houserules gallor)

So no, there really isn't magic marts or the like. In fact numerous blacksmiths in small towns only do have the lightest of weapons. In fact the only magic item that the players saw until reaching level 7 was a ring of protection +1. This only really worked because my gaming group was made out of 3 of 4 who never played the game before. All of which focused on melee characters except one who was a heal focused cleric. I've gotten them to think a +2 weapon is something to write home about.

When entering a blacksmith I have them ask for what items they wish to see, and then I roll a percentile dice to see if he has it based on what I think the probability would be. This is not always based on magicalness, as for example a dwarven blacksmith probably won't have any rapiers.

Now I'm sure a lot of people who play here would absolutely detest this system. But me and my group like it, so much that I've had them argue for a similar system in other games.

waterpenguin43
2009-08-16, 11:17 AM
Mage-Mart!!TM
Unfortunately, Mage-Mart sells unfortunately underanded magic items.

Milskidasith
2009-08-16, 11:45 AM
I try and play in a gritty pseudo-realistic world. (houserules gallor)

So no, there really isn't magic marts or the like. In fact numerous blacksmiths in small towns only do have the lightest of weapons. In fact the only magic item that the players saw until reaching level 7 was a ring of protection +1. This only really worked because my gaming group was made out of 3 of 4 who never played the game before. All of which focused on melee characters except one who was a heal focused cleric. I've gotten them to think a +2 weapon is something to write home about.

When entering a blacksmith I have them ask for what items they wish to see, and then I roll a percentile dice to see if he has it based on what I think the probability would be. This is not always based on magicalness, as for example a dwarven blacksmith probably won't have any rapiers.

Now I'm sure a lot of people who play here would absolutely detest this system. But me and my group like it, so much that I've had them argue for a similar system in other games.

I'm assuming you throw enemies of a CR 1 or 2 below their level at them, because, while your system may work fluff and RP wise, it isn't going to be pretty when they can't beat the weakest of enemies at their CR.

Riffington
2009-08-16, 12:01 PM
I'm assuming you throw enemies of a CR 1 or 2 below their level at them, because, while your system may work fluff and RP wise, it isn't going to be pretty when they can't beat the weakest of enemies at their CR.

It actually depends greatly on the specific enemy. For humanoids (90% of enemies in a gritty realistic game), the lack of loots hampers them almost as much as the PCs, so you can just use whatever CR you like. For beasts (9% of enemies), you don't really need that much in the way of special properties, so use a CR 1 or so lower. On the other end of the spectrum, ghosts have all kinds of special properties that need magic to defeat; their CR will be unrelated to the book's listed CR.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-08-16, 02:15 PM
That is an extremely cool system. A question: Is there any limit on rented items? I mean, I know you are trustworthy from all your purchases, but renting out, say, a bunch of epic gear to a level 17 character seems a little bit risky.


I guess one wouldn't qualify for Adamant membership at a mere level 17. :smallwink:

Actually, it's fairly common to make Mithral membership by 11th level and Adamant membership around 18 or thereabouts, assuming one is wealthy enough. Rented items are given based on three critera: First, the type of item is dependent on prior record (so someone who tends to have rods or staffs sundered will be encouraged to rent wondrous items instead); second, the upper limit on the value of the items rented is based on how likely you are to be able to repay it--so given the exponential growth of item cost even after I've flattened it a bit, you're unlikely to get anything more than 1 or 2 levels above your price range at best.

Finally, items tend to be improvements or variations on items you already have, so if you've bought several flaming swords of varying power levels (for instance), you'd be much more likely to be allowed a more powerful flaming sword or a weapon with a different energy type or a flaming weapon of a different type. The rental service is meant for quick services or replacements; anything really expensive or different you'll be encouraged to buy directly.

Milskidasith
2009-08-16, 02:17 PM
When you say "encouraged" do you mean the epic level caster bodyguards all take a few steps towards you and stare at you in a way that says "just try me?"

Jastermereel
2009-08-16, 03:08 PM
In fact the only magic item that the players saw until reaching level 7 was a ring of protection +1.
This is how my last group was run. We didn't get anything for most of the game. At one point we got an unplaced +1 AC bonus because the lack of loot was catching up with us. Another time each player was given 3 points to spend on pretty much anything except ability scores (most used it for upping their attack or damage with their primary weapon). It wasn't until around level 10 that I convinced the DM to give us some actual loot and even that was relatively low level around 4-10K per player***.

I'm going to be taking over that group soon and was grappling with the same issue.

As the players haven't really gotten a taste for loot and consequently won't rush into town with something in mind, I figured I'd mostly rely on found loot or gifts from thankful recipients of aid. That way I can tailor what they get to play to their strengths and cover their weaknesses. And seeing as how the group is a figther, barbarian, rogue and bard...I suspect treasure will be supplemented with a lot of healing potions and the like.

To those that give thought to WBL, do you include all they have when using it as a gauge? I was thinking of using it for the major items (swords, staffs, armor and the like) and being more lax on less critical but more flexible items. For example, most components in this "Batman Belt (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4400.0)" are pretty mundane (especially those under 1K, but the whole pack is pretty big. Even divided by the number of players, it doesn't represent the same power that WBP would expect of them, but it provides interesting options. What would any of you do with that mass of mundane equipment?

***I do have to give him credit for giving the weed-loving druid a 1/day wand of "Stoned Shape". Attacking Cockatrices suddenly are swept away while ridding an old wooden rollercoaster? Great Red Wyrm loses a turn wondering when he started wearing Hawaiian shirts? Amusing moments all around.

Milskidasith
2009-08-16, 03:12 PM
Generally, I find magical weapons to be the least important things of all the gear you can carry; pure damage output is generally bleh, and without things like Anklets of Translocation or other items you can be instantly killed by numerous effects. With a magical plus or two on your weapons... you might have one less round of being hit by "save or die/suck" effects.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-08-16, 04:45 PM
When you say "encouraged" do you mean the epic level caster bodyguards all take a few steps towards you and stare at you in a way that says "just try me?"

No, no, that would be bad PR! It's more along the lines of "Well, sir, the last item of that sort you bought from us--the rod of azure splendor, serial number #8327-22, purchased eight months and one day ago--was sundered by a great red wyrm, and we would like to remind sir that rented items damaged, destroyed, or otherwise harmed must be paid for out of sir's own pocket. Sir might instead prefer the same general effect in amulet form, which would take one day longer to procure but would prevent sir from having to fill out the second waiver form."

:smallwink:


Generally, I find magical weapons to be the least important things of all the gear you can carry; pure damage output is generally bleh, and without things like Anklets of Translocation or other items you can be instantly killed by numerous effects. With a magical plus or two on your weapons... you might have one less round of being hit by "save or die/suck" effects.

Magical weapons with plain ol' +X modifiers, definitely. Unique weapons like the nine lives stealer or oathbow are much more flavorful and cool (well, those two examples are fairly meh, but you get the idea).

An example of a flavorful magic weapon I've used:

Spiritfletched Bow
This +3 distance elemental-bane longbow appears to be a set of wings taken from a freakishly large bird, usually a raven. As a swift action, before the wielder fires an arrow, he can pluck a single feather from the bow and touch the quill to the arrow; the feather will adhere to the arrow in place of one of the existing fletchings. If the arrow hits a living enemy, it will shatter into a partially-real copy of the bird whose feathers were used in the creation of the bow with a flash of light; this topaz-colored phantom will irritate its target, dealing 2d4 damage each round and imposing a -1 penalty to attack rolls, skill checks, AC, and Reflex saves (multiple birds stack). Each bird has an AC of 30, a fly speed of 50 feet (good), and 1 hit point, and disappears if the creature it is attacking dies or if the creature moves more than 20 feet away from it. Each bow regrows plucked feathers in the light of the moon; if more than 7 feathers are plucked before the bow has a chance to regenerate them, the bow loses its enhancement bonus and bane property until all of the feathers are regrown, and up to 20 feathers may be plucked before it loses all magical qualities until exposed to moonlight.

Much cooler than just a +2 longbow, if I do say so myself.

Delaney Gale
2009-08-16, 05:30 PM
You mean Sigil, right, berk?

So a Cipher, a Hardhead, and an Indep walk into a magic mart...

... this happens a lot in our campaign, actually. About half the party settled in Sigil after we finished the Die, Vecna, Die! module.