Bargaining for Souls

[Olo Demonsbane]

I have a character that can harvest the souls from enemies that he kills and turn them lawful evil. I know how much he could sell them in gold: CR^2x1000gp is the standard price. My question to the playground is:

How much do the devils value the souls? What could I trade high level souls for? Could I get turned into a type of devil?

I understand that this is entirely based on your judgement, but I assume the playground's overall conciousness is somewhat like Asmodeus :smallamused:

[sofawall]

I was considering being offended, but Asmodeus is too badass.

[Mordokai]

Well, you're basically already working towards furthering Baator's agenda and you aren't even a devil. You're reaping divine energy and it most likely flows into the Nine Hells, empowering it and it's troops in many ways possible.

I assume your character is LE as well? If that is a case, you're pretty much "doomed" to Nine Hells anyway. After the Shelves of Despond and all the torture and what not, your soul would be eventually transformed into lemure. However, depending on how much souls, that is, energy, you already reaped, you might get yourself a more beneficial bargain for yourself. By summoning the harvester devil or something similar, signing the Fauxtian pact... if you're skilled negotiator, you might be able to get yourself a better deal than a lowly lemure. However, aiming for anything higher than spined devil is probably to much too hope for.

That's my take on it, but as always, your DM has the last word.

[Kelpstrand]

Yeah, I would say, when you die you can become a Devil.

I don't know how this applies, but basically, Devils love bargains and contracts.

So Planar Bind a Powerful Demon, or have the Wizard do it, and have it's service be to negotiate a contract with you.

Basically, you give Asmodeus (Or a high level servant, depending on your level) a portion of your souls, say 60% for Asmo, 50% for a lesser one. In return he safeguards the remainder, and when you die, all the souls become yours.

Personally, I usually follow the rule for dead evil beings that you turn into a Demon of your CR -8 (lots of imps), with additions to that based on particularly useful evil deeds.

Given the soul collecting, I'd just say that if you want, the next time you die, instead of being raised, you could be a devil of CR = character level on death. That way you could still adventure with the party, but you'd have the whole, becoming a Devil part really mean something now.

You might need Demonic progressions or whatever if you are going to keep leveling of course.

But yeah, I'd play up the contract angle as much as possible.


you might be able to get yourself a better deal than a lowly lemure. However, aiming for anything higher than spined devil is probably to much too hope for.

I think that's pretty conservative. CR 20 badasses don't become Lemures when they die, they have as much inherent power as a Pit Fiend, They might not actually become a Pit Fiend, but they sure aren't lowly Spine Devils. Much less if they are specifically negotiating their place with a bag full of souls that would turn and 10 Spine Devils into Ice Devils.

[Olo Demonsbane]

Well, you're basically already working towards furthering Baator's agenda and you aren't even a devil. You're reaping divine energy and it most likely flows into the Nine Hells, empowering it and it's troops in many ways possible.

The thing is, my character is a rougish person who captures the souls of anyone he kills and then turns them LE. He can them sell them or give them to the devils...the devils dont benifet from him otherwise.


I assume your character is LE as well? If that is a case, you're pretty much "doomed" to Nine Hells anyway. After the Shelves of Despond and all the torture and what not, your soul would be eventually transformed into lemure. However, depending on how much souls, that is, energy, you already reaped, you might get yourself a more beneficial bargain for yourself. By summoning the harvester devil or something similar, signing the Fauxtian pact... if you're skilled negotiator, you might be able to get yourself a better deal than a lowly lemure. However, aiming for anything higher than spined devil is probably to much too hope for.

My character wants the power that the Nine Hells have to offer. He would prefer to be transformed into a devil with all of his current memories...something that my DM decided they can do, if I contact a suffeciently powerful devil.

EDIT: Kelpstrand: You have the right idea, only I was trying for the thing that I forgot to mention right above here.

[TheCountAlucard]

How much do the devils value the souls? What could I trade high level souls for? Could I get turned into a type of devil?Going with what Mordokai said; it is largely up to the DM, but I can imagine such a transaction being possible, especially if your character gives them enough incentive to do so.

[Mordokai]

I think that's pretty conservative. CR 20 badasses don't become Lemures when they die, they have as much inherent power as a Pit Fiend, They might not actually become a Pit Fiend, but they sure aren't lowly Spine Devils. Much less if they are specifically negotiating their place with a bag full of souls that would turn and 10 Spine Devils into Ice Devils.

Fair enough. I was working on the premise we're talking about low level adventurers, though I guess if that would be the case, he wouldn't have access to powerful magic and/or items he needs for harvesting souls.

Of course it's also true that devils will always try to swidle you, so you could end up lower in Hell's hierarchy than you would be entitled to. And we're back to bargaining and negotiating again... :smallbiggrin:

[Narmoth]

First of all:
Don't sign a Faustian pact, as your souls becomes by it property of one of the Lords of the Nine Hells. You don't want that.

In Faerun, the LE dead that are not bound by a pact with a devil, can bargain for his soul with the devils. He can sometimes get a higher starting position than lemure if he's particularly powerful, but I don't have that book.

What I'd do is to hang on to the souls and have the devils bid for the souls.

[Starscream]

That "Comes back as a devil" idea sounds cool, and I might use it sometime.

I have a question, though. We know that a PC's CR is equivalent to his level (theoretically, anyway). We also know that this does not generally work in reverse.

So would it be balanced to have the devil "evolve" to a higher form whenever he levels. From a CR 5 imp to a CR 6 Steel Devil, for instance? That would make for a very dynamic and interesting character. Also an unstable one; you'd run the risk of waking up tomorrow with vastly different abilities, even an altered intelligence score. You could literally go from a scheming mastermind to the party's dumb meat shield overnight.

Cool, but is it balanced? Some of those monsters simply weren't designed for playable characters. Could it be made balanced without sacrificing the inherent coolness of the idea??

[Flickerdart]

Selling souls for gold is stupid. You can get gold any old way, but getting souls is difficult. So strike a deal with one of the Archdevils: you give them, say, 666 HD worth of souls that weren't LE before, and when you die, you get to be a devil of your CR right away and keep your memories.

[bosssmiley]

Finality (http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=28828&highlight=finality) - an Acheronean planar metropolis based on the soul trade.

You can trade high level souls for other stuff that matters in the Wish Economy: wishes (or other powerful planar magic), other planar currencies, magic items over ~15,000gp cost, non-standard magic effects.

[hamishspence]

So would it be balanced to have the devil "evolve" to a higher form whenever he levels. From a CR 5 imp to a CR 6 Steel Devil, for instance? That would make for a very dynamic and interesting character. Also an unstable one; you'd run the risk of waking up tomorrow with vastly different abilities, even an altered intelligence score. You could literally go from a scheming mastermind to the party's dumb meat shield overnight.

Cool, but is it balanced? Some of those monsters simply weren't designed for playable characters. Could it be made balanced without sacrificing the inherent coolness of the idea??


Fiendish Codex 2 does have details on how devils evolve to higher forms. However, it isn't precisely calibrated to challenge rating- for example, the upgrade from bearded devil, is to imp, because the ability to corrupt is a bit more important than actual power.

[Olo Demonsbane]

Starscream: Ive played that way for Demons before when I DMed. My friend wanted to play a demon, so every level I gave him the choice to go up a CR or gain a class level. It worked out pretty well: He ended up as a Barg-Lura Fighter 4/Barbarian 1, and was moderately powerful compared to the rest of the group.

Flickerdart: Thats exactly what I was looking for. Thanks.

Finality is where I have been selling souls for the entire campaign...its actually a really profitable buisness.

[Signmaker]

Basically, you give Asmodeus (Or a high level servant, depending on your level) a portion of your souls, say 60% for Asmo, 50% for a lesser one. In return he safeguards the remainder, and when you die, all the souls become yours.


Evil Social Security?

[Kelpstrand]

Evil Social Security?

Well, more like a swiss bank account.

You pay them in money, and they keep your stuff safe and you can get it whenever. In this case, you stuff just happens to be the same currency you are paying them to guard it.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Fiendish Codex 2 does have details on how devils evolve to higher forms. However, it isn't precisely calibrated to challenge rating- for example, the upgrade from bearded devil, is to imp, because the ability to corrupt is a bit more important than actual power.

That could be made part of the deal, then--"I want to grow in power, not in purpose, so I get to become a devil of my power level with memories intact and I get to choose what I'm promoted to next."

[sofawall]

That could be made part of the deal, then--"I want to grow in power, not in purpose, so I get to become a devil of my power level with memories intact and I get to choose what I'm promoted to next."

"Well, I'm done being a lemure, its' promotion time! I want to be promoted to... A Pit Fiend. No, wait! An Archdevil! Yeah!"

[PersonMan]

"Well, I'm done being a lemure, its' promotion time! I want to be promoted to... A Pit Fiend. No, wait! An Archdevil! Yeah!"

"Well, alright. You are now an Archdevil...With no allies, resources or forces. Did I mention you didn't have the time to learn any feats or skills? And everyone has to work to get they abilities...Oh, and extra HD is overrated. Have fun!"

...So you just end up perverting everything the other guy says until you either die, die(for real) or...kill him/her/it/she/they.

[Mordokai]

Selling souls for gold is stupid. You can get gold any old way, but getting souls is difficult. So strike a deal with one of the Archdevils: you give them, say, 666 HD worth of souls that weren't LE before, and when you die, you get to be a devil of your CR right away and keep your memories.

That actually sounds like a totally reasonable and sweet deal.

[Altima]

Souls are the currency of the Hells (and most of the other lower planes). So, in theory, you could get practically anything you want (as money is in the world) that you could possibly want.

Every wondered what it'd be like to have a legion of Yugoloths at your command?

Or you could start getting wishes. The five at once to raise your primary stat. Maybe wish for the ability to inflict (half) your sneak attack (since you're rogue-ish) on creatures normally immune to it.

Immortality is a good place to start. No one likes dying an old, senile old...person thing.

[Olo Demonsbane]

Great ideas, Altima!

So...how many gold pieces worth of souls would you think I would need to be transformed into a lesser devil?

[Alleine]

You move up on the devil ladder depending on the number of souls you bring in, right? So just place several caches of souls around the world that theoretically only you could find and access. When you make the change from person to devil, bring along enough souls to ensure you stay you. Then retrieve your soul caches for demonic upgrades. Then laugh because you're now awesome.

[Gralamin]

Great ideas, Altima!

So...how many gold pieces worth of souls would you think I would need to be transformed into a lesser devil?

Well, following a completely RAW Example...
Savage Species has a Ritual involving Wish that turns you into a different type of creature. This costs at least 26,530 gp. I'd use that as a good base line.

[Olo Demonsbane]

Maybe I have to earn my way up the ranking...(though I can pay for multiple boosts at the same time)
CR X; Cost = X^2 x 25,000 (approximate cost of a wish)
To get to CR 2 from being a human, I would have to pay 25,000x1+4, or 125,000gp
To get to CR 10 from CR 2 would be 25,000x9+25+36+49+64+81+100=25,000x364, or 9,100,000gp

That seems...a bit excessive. How much would you value it as?

Maybe x 5000?

[Altima]

Keep in mind that the process of being elevated in status isn't exactly something that happens overnight. If I recall correctly, I remember the creation of a Pit Fiend took something like the next lowest rank devil being thrown into a burning pit for a century.

[hamishspence]

yes- one of the things stressed in Fiendish Codex 2 was that powerful tyrants assume they will get to skip lemure and race up the power tree- they are wrong.

Given how overpowered Wish can be, seeing a more expensive price tag seems more reassuring.

Souls aren't pried very high in BoVD (Soul in receptacle is 200 gp, Larva is 250 gp) However, the value to the Nine Hells of converting a good or neutral soul to evil may be higher.

[HamsterOfTheGod]

The thing is, my character is a rougish person who captures the souls of anyone he kills and then turns them LE. He can them sell them or give them to the devils...the devils dont benifet from him otherwise.

My character wants the power that the Nine Hells have to offer. He would prefer to be transformed into a devil with all of his current memories...something that my DM decided they can do, if I contact a suffeciently powerful devil.

I assume you are already playing a "Disciple of <insert devil name>" type class, one that synergizes with rogue? If not, taking such a prestige class might be a direct benefit of dealing with the devils.

Another way to do it would be to take level is a devil class like the ones from Savage Species or make a custom class that would quickly/slowly transform you into a devil. For ex Wizard did the Half-Fiend template here http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20031010a. You get the outsider type right at the very beginning. And someone did a custom class here http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6348041. It gives the outsider type at the as an apotheosis.

[Mordokai]

I don't have the book on me, so I can't check but there's a PrC Fiend Blooded in there that might fit. However, I seem to remember it has an arcane spellcasting as prerequisite and it advances it as well, so it's more of a flavor type for you than anything else.

Just throwing options out there.