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PinkysBrain
2009-08-15, 07:26 PM
Is there any way to protect walls against disintegrate, or at least decrease how deep a single disintegrate can carve them?

Flickerdart
2009-08-15, 07:28 PM
Is there any way to protect walls against disintegrate, or at least decrease how deep a single disintegrate can carve them?
Make the walls thicker than 10 feet? That's not all that much, fortress walls are considerably thicker than that.

Thrawn183
2009-08-15, 07:31 PM
Cover them in walls of force. Now you need 2 disintegrates.

AstralFire
2009-08-15, 07:33 PM
Pft.

Make walls three feet deep with a half inch gap. With upper end building materials, that's still really solid and it's technically not one wall anymore. They'll take three times as long per 10 foot segment... :)

EDIT: In fact, since you gain no bonus except from raw materials to HP, just make a ton of half-inch walls of adamantine immediately adjacent to one another with a tiny gap. This is, in fact, harder to break because should they overcome one wall's hardness and break through with a really strong attack, the next one is just as unphased as ever.

Emy
2009-08-15, 07:34 PM
Cover them in walls of force. Now you need 2 disintegrates.

Then cover your walls of force in walls of force.

Also the Prismatic Screen wall augmentation from Stronghold Builder's Guide. The Prismatic Screen just comes back after 24 hours if destroyed... and it's a bit of a pain to destroy in the first place.

Logalmier
2009-08-15, 07:34 PM
If you're the DM then you can just make some sort of new anti-disintegration of rock. I think it would be funny if you made it reflect the disintegrate spell, that way if disintegrate was cast at the walls then it would just bounce off the walls, not stopping until it hit a party member.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-08-15, 07:54 PM
Then cover your walls of force in walls of force.

Also the Prismatic Screen wall augmentation from Stronghold Builder's Guide. The Prismatic Screen just comes back after 24 hours if destroyed... and it's a bit of a pain to destroy in the first place.

That's my favorite augmentation. When in my last campaign I was making the flagship of the Nine Hells' fleet to take on the PCs' giant flying turtle fortress (don't ask), the hull of the Hammer of Baator looked like this, outside to inside:
5 cm obdurium wall
prismatic screen
5 cm wall of force
1 cm gap
5 cm obdurium wall
1 cm gap
prismatic screen
1 cm gap
5 cm obdurium wall
1 cm gap
5 cm wall of force
1 cm gap
5 cm obdurium wall
1 cm gap
prismatic screen
5 cm obdurium wall
1 cm gap
5 cm wall of force
1 cm gap
prismatic screen
5 cm obdurium wall
And in the turrets on the side there were a few dedicated ur-priest counterspellers to prevent antimagic, dispelling, or disjunction.

They launched a disintegrate at the pure-black hull and saw there was a rainbow wall behind it. They cast the 7 spells necessary to get through that, launched another disintegrate at the next obdurium wall, saw it hit an invisible wall of force, fired yet another one at the obdurium wall, took down the next prismatic screen...then gave up and retreated to think of a different option, because at this point the capital city they were supposed to defend from diabolical incursion had pretty much been Base Delta Zero (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Base_Delta_Zero)-ed.

Though its prices are way too stupidly inflated to use, Stronghold Builder's Guide is a wonderful book. :smallbiggrin:

sofawall
2009-08-15, 07:57 PM
If you're the DM then you can just make some sort of new anti-disintegration of rock. I think it would be funny if you made it reflect the disintegrate spell, that way if disintegrate was cast at the walls then it would just bounce off the walls, not stopping until it hit a party member.

Garbage Compactor?

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-08-15, 08:00 PM
That's my favorite augmentation. When in my last campaign I was making the flagship of the Nine Hells' fleet to take on the PCs' giant flying turtle fortress (don't ask), the hull of the Hammer of Baator looked like this, outside to inside:
5 cm obdurium wall
prismatic screen
5 cm wall of force
1 cm gap
5 cm obdurium wall
1 cm gap
prismatic screen
1 cm gap
5 cm obdurium wall
1 cm gap
5 cm wall of force
1 cm gap
5 cm obdurium wall
1 cm gap
prismatic screen
5 cm obdurium wall
1 cm gap
5 cm wall of force
1 cm gap
prismatic screen
5 cm obdurium wall
And in the turrets on the side there were a few dedicated ur-priest counterspellers to prevent antimagic, dispelling, or disjunction.

They launched a disintegrate at the pure-black hull and saw there was a rainbow wall behind it. They cast the 7 spells necessary to get through that, launched another disintegrate at the next obdurium wall, saw it hit an invisible wall of force, fired yet another one at the obdurium wall, took down the next prismatic screen...then gave up and retreated to think of a different option, because at this point the capital city they were supposed to defend from diabolical incursion had pretty much been Base Delta Zero (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Base_Delta_Zero)-ed.

Though its prices are way too stupidly inflated to use, Stronghold Builder's Guide is a wonderful book. :smallbiggrin:Yeah, that seems like a poor plan on their part. Take out the counterspellers, then Disjunction the entire ship. Since you can't cast anything until the counterspellers are dead anyways, why not?

Jack_Simth
2009-08-15, 08:02 PM
Well, if you make the wall Magical, it gets a Fort save, and if it passes, only takes a little damage. Not likely to be useful, though, as most casters pump their save DC considerably.

Clementx
2009-08-15, 08:09 PM
Or you could simply enforce realistic physics when they instantly remove ten cubic feet of load-bearing material. Cave ins are fun.

Curmudgeon
2009-08-15, 08:43 PM
Don't protect the walls. Just have some of the walls separate the people areas from the liquid storage areas (drinking water, wash water, sewage, irrigation). Getting flooded will teach casters to watch what they Disintegrate.

TheCountAlucard
2009-08-15, 08:45 PM
If you're the DM then you can just make some sort of new anti-disintegration of rock. I think it would be funny if you made it reflect the disintegrate spell, that way if disintegrate was cast at the walls then it would just bounce off the walls, not stopping until it hit a party member.In one game of mine, the walls of a particular tower were warded with spell turning.

Ormur
2009-08-15, 08:53 PM
I've also been thinking about how to keep walls and castles up against a dedicated foe (especially a PC) as a DM. There are all those augmentations from the Stronghold Builders Guide but it's so easy to simply cast move earth under the wall or building and collapse it. There is also a swordsage in my group that has a maneuver that ignores hardness and could simply punch himself steadily through any non-magical obstacle.

If we presume that the builders had enough time and access to lots of magic could they somehow build in counterspells or make the walls nearly immune to stoneshape, move earth, disintegrate and all those other spells that potential attackers would use?

Jack_Simth
2009-08-15, 08:59 PM
Yeah, a Greater Dispel Magic trap with Arcane Sight as the trigger could do it reasonably well - it dispells anything that gets within range.

Bonus points if it's made by a caster with Arcane Mastery (for taking 10 on caster level checks, such as Dispel checks), and some tricks for boosting Dispels.

Random832
2009-08-15, 09:04 PM
Then cover your walls of force in walls of force.

Yo dawg, :smallbiggrin:

But seriously - if they abuse the ability to disintegrate walls, punish them for it by collapsing the building. It's a realistic consequence. Each time they say to disintegrate one, make them make a Knowledge (architecture & engineering) check. Regardless of the result (they'll fail, since they don't have the knowledge), the check serves as a silent alarm that, yes, you _will_ be enforcing consequences for these actions.

For stuff like deliberately collapsing a wall by moving the earth under it, a knowledge check is needed to make it not have an equal chance of collapsing _on them_.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-08-15, 09:05 PM
Yeah, a Greater Dispel Magic trap with Arcane Sight as the trigger could do it reasonably well - it dispells anything that gets within range.

Bonus points if it's made by a caster with Arcane Mastery (for taking 10 on caster level checks, such as Dispel checks), and some tricks for boosting Dispels.Rogue walks up, makes a pair of DC 31 checks, and the Wizard casts Disintegrate.

Glimbur
2009-08-15, 10:06 PM
If it's a siege situation, and not long-term abandoned area, you could have a Lyre of Building or a custom one that can be played all day to make buildings indestructible all day be used. The radius isn't that great on an architectural scale, but it is flat out immunity to being destroyed.

I've seen plans for such a modified Lyre and a flying fortress with several other things to rain destruction on the countryside. Your mileage may vary.

erikun
2009-08-15, 10:29 PM
Anti-Magic Aura, source inside the walls, arrow slits allow it to extend past the walls themselves. That, or just say there is some natural anti-magic material in the mortar.

Seriously though, why? If this for one ancient castle full of ancient wizard magic and ancient arcane relics, then just say they figured out a way to stop jerks from disintegrating their walls apart. If it's the local castle fully of lv.3 aristocrats, though, how the heck would they afford antidisintegration countermeasures in the first place?

pingcode20
2009-08-15, 10:41 PM
Anti-Magic Aura, source inside the walls, arrow slits allow it to extend past the walls themselves. That, or just say there is some natural anti-magic material in the mortar.

Seriously though, why? If this for one ancient castle full of ancient wizard magic and ancient arcane relics, then just say they figured out a way to stop jerks from disintegrating their walls apart. If it's the local castle fully of lv.3 aristocrats, though, how the heck would they afford antidisintegration countermeasures in the first place?

Easy. Large canvas sheets anchored at the top by 10' blocks of stone. Disintegrate propagates up the canvas sheets and obliterates sacrificial stone, leaving wall and other ablative sheets intact. Can be replaced cheaply with access to 4th level wizard to levitate up replacement anchors. Do not anchor to anything you're not willing to lose. Possibly lessened requirements, if unsecured stone does not propagate through to wall.

Cheap, efficient, and effective. Has to be actively defended, of course, but any obstacle you leave undefended without the benefit of DM-level magic is like letting somebody at your computer and expecting your password to be safe indefinitely.

I don't get why the solution always has to be magical. There's always easier options to limit damage, and a few sheets of ablative cladding goes a long way to resisting disintegrate based attack. It's a little on the vulnerable side to fireballs, but it's a lot better than sacrificing ridiculously expensive permanent walls of force to block one disintegrate each.

AstralFire
2009-08-15, 10:43 PM
Or, like I suggested, lots of really thin little walls.

Glad someone else noticed the 'disintegrate can only protect one object per casting' clause.

sofawall
2009-08-15, 11:33 PM
Omigosh it's AstralFire!

Wait, disintegrate can protect?

AstralFire
2009-08-15, 11:41 PM
Omigosh it's AstralFire!

Wait, disintegrate can protect?

Yes. It sends it to the Shadow Realm, where Yugi can't bother it anymore.

sofawall
2009-08-16, 12:01 AM
Omigosh it's AstralFire!

Didn't I ask you to stop winning?

quick_comment
2009-08-16, 12:15 AM
In one game of mine, the walls of a particular tower were warded with spell turning.

Spell turning does not affect rays like disintegrate.

The best way is to just fiat it. Give the walls SR, make them out of disintegrate immune material, make them living (so they get a fort save) whatever. You are the DM, you make the rules

TheCountAlucard
2009-08-16, 12:28 AM
Spell turning does not affect rays like disintegrate.Blast! Good thing my players weren't aware of that! :smallbiggrin:

Thrawn183
2009-08-16, 12:39 AM
You could make the walls an intelligent magic item that responds in kind...

Skorj
2009-08-16, 01:29 AM
It's amusing to watch the forum re-invent Chobham armor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chobham_armour).

Reality check (ok, verisimilitude check). If castle walls weren't disintigrate-proof, would anyone even bother to build castles? I always add some sort of stone that's proof against any magic to a campaign setting. No disintigrate, no scry-and-die, no teleport until you go to the special courtyard, etc. As long as the anti-magic effect is limited to the walls themselves, the potential for abuse is limited as well. Also, you can theoreticaly make a jail that can hold a PC.

AslanCross
2009-08-16, 02:56 AM
Make your walls out of VOIDSTONE. :smallamused:

Emy
2009-08-16, 03:13 AM
You could animate the castle and have it wield a +1 Spellblade (Disintegrate) Longsword or something.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-08-17, 08:24 AM
It's amusing to watch the forum re-invent Chobham armor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chobham_armour).

Reality check (ok, verisimilitude check). If castle walls weren't disintigrate-proof, would anyone even bother to build castles? I always add some sort of stone that's proof against any magic to a campaign setting. No disintigrate, no scry-and-die, no teleport until you go to the special courtyard, etc. As long as the anti-magic effect is limited to the walls themselves, the potential for abuse is limited as well. Also, you can theoreticaly make a jail that can hold a PC.For the same reason people continue to farm despite the cost of a Create Food trap being 700 GP. Either the DM hasn't thought of it or they don't.

subject42
2009-08-17, 08:55 AM
I would suggest building your walls out of Dwarves.

They get a bonus to saves against magic and have a con bonus that boosts fort saves.

Also, Dwarven commoners are cheap.

Curmudgeon
2009-08-17, 09:15 AM
For the same reason people continue to farm despite the cost of a Create Food trap being 700 GP. Either the DM hasn't thought of it or they don't.
Oh, everybody's thought of that trap. That's why the Farmworkers' Guild has a standing reward for anyone who destroys such a thing. They don't want mages messing with their livelihood.

Cyclocone
2009-08-17, 09:18 AM
Make the walls out of traces of fine dust.

Or block line of effect by covering the walls in tower shields.

Lapak
2009-08-17, 09:56 AM
If we're talking about a siege situation, traditional castle walls are already sort of-kinda ablative armor. They're not a single multi-foot-thick block of stone - they're generally two thick stone barriers with rubble filling in the space in between. Are there rules for how disintegrate affects loose rubble? Would it destroy a 10-foot area in a pile of rocks, sand, earth and so on? If not, then it's definitely a powerful weapon for destroying the protective outer layer, but it won't immediately blow a hole through the wall. Heck, even if it DOES affect rubble it probably would take at least three castings to make a viable breach - one to penetrate the outer wall, one to wipe out the rubble (hope more doesn't fall down from above), and one to breach the inner wall.

Now, interior walls, those are pretty much doomed if a disintegrate-happy wizard comes calling.

Lysander
2009-08-17, 09:56 AM
From the spell:

Only the first creature or object struck can be affected; that is, the ray affects only one target per casting.

Build the wall out of thousands of small stone blocks. "Disintegrate!" *POP* One brick destroyed, several thousands to go. Each brick is an individual object, the ray only hits one brick.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-08-17, 10:02 AM
From the spell:


Build the wall out of thousands of small stone blocks. "Disintegrate!" *POP* One brick destroyed, several thousands to go. Each brick is an individual object, the ray only hits one brick.In the same way a Fighter sundering a stone wall only affects one brick? Oh, wait....

Cyclocone
2009-08-17, 10:12 AM
When used against an object, the ray simply disintegrates as much as one 10-foot cube of nonliving matter. Thus, the spell disintegrates only part of any very large object or structure targeted.

A wall is very obviously a structure, and thus counts as one single object for the purpose of this spell.
If each brick in the wall only counts as a single object, someone obviously forgot to use mortar, in which case you can just push the wall to make it fall over.

Dr_Emperor
2009-08-17, 10:20 AM
Not my idea, but put lava behind the wall, lava makes everything better

Also castles are pretty cheap to make with higher level spells, move earth, wall of stone, and what would the commoners do if they just got free food all the time, the powers that be obviously don't feed the farmers, cause with free time they might actually do something useful.

subject42
2009-08-17, 10:22 AM
If each brick in the wall only counts as a single object, someone obviously forgot to use mortar, in which case you can just push the wall to make it fall over.

Not to get to real-worldy, but there are some people over at Machu Picchu who might disagree with you on that one.

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-08-17, 10:28 AM
Let alone the pyramids. :smalltongue:

To make a real tough wall though? Take a few hundred thousand people. Dominate an epic being with supernatural temporal stasis ability. Use said being to temporal stasis the people to the desired locations, building up the wall.

Since the temporal stasis is supernatural, it can't be dispelled. Since it's epic, it can't be antimagicked.

Curmudgeon
2009-08-17, 10:28 AM
Not to get to real-worldy, but there are some people over at Machu Picchu who might disagree with you on that one.
A few in Egypt, too. :smallcool:

Random832
2009-08-17, 10:39 AM
Not to get to real-worldy, but there are some people over at Machu Picchu who might disagree with you on that one.

You just have to push it real hard :smallcool:

Cyclocone
2009-08-17, 10:47 AM
1. Machu Picchu was build with dry-stone walls, which are only held up by the stones interlocking, i.e. you only need to disintegrate one stone to make the walls come tumblin' down.
2. The pyramids were build with mortar.

Telonius
2009-08-17, 11:18 AM
It's a little-known fact that St. Bob of the Waters, god of Walls, will wreak horrible vengeance upon anyone who disintegrates his children. (His mortal enemy is Ooc the Irrepressible, who will always attempt to destroy the fourth wall of any structure).

AstralFire
2009-08-17, 11:24 AM
It's a little-known fact that St. Bob of the Waters, god of Walls, will wreak horrible vengeance upon anyone who disintegrates his children. (His mortal enemy is Ooc the Irrepressible, who will always attempt to destroy the fourth wall of any structure).

http://i20.tinypic.com/106x6vc.jpg

(OoC really did make me crack up. XD)