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View Full Version : [3.5] How much can a mule pull? What counts as feed for it? (Players don't look!!!!!)



Pika...
2009-08-15, 08:31 PM
So, right now my players are planning on going on an Oregon Trail like trip across my game would on an old orc wagon being pulled by a mule to deliver some cargo.

The thing is, the players have decided to stuff it to the max to the max in order to maximize their profits. Being the DM that I am, I want to see if the poor creature can even pull the stuff. :smallbiggrin:

Here are a mules stats:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/mule.htm

So, do I go by the Heavy Load as the max it can pull, or by the Drag? And do either incur speed, or other (like health) penalties on the poor beated mule?

Equipment and Gear:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#adventuringGear

Currently, they agreed to deliver 20 5ftx5ft chests filled with very secret items, and each possessing an Amazing Lock (little secret treasure I put in there).

The Equipment section says a chest weighs 25lb. Does this include what you put in it? If not, how do I know how many wine bottles can fit into it? Notes: It says each wine bottle is 1/2lbs.

And each lock is 1lb.

The wagon itself is 400lb.


Total so far excluding the bottles: 920lbs.


On the wagon they also have:

50 days rations = 50lbs.

5 tiny cages (25lbs each) = 125lbs.

5 chickens (it says online that chickens weigh 5-7 lbs) = 25lbs.

3 winter blankets = 9lbs.

3 cold weather outfits = 21lbs.


Current Total not including the PCs and their gear: 1,150lbs.



Also, what exactly counts as "feed" for a mule (sorry, not a country boy), and how long can the poor thing go before it falls over dead?

AstralFire
2009-08-15, 08:39 PM
It should probably be even more than the 'drag' listed; wheels make anything considerably easier to move.

Jack_Simth
2009-08-15, 08:51 PM
Start with the Drag figure for the Mule.
Double it (because the wagon has wheels).
If something happens to negate the wheels (mud, very poor roads, steep upwards inclines, whatever), you set it back to the drag figure to determine whether or not the mule can make any forward progress.

So for a mule, that'd be 6,900 pounds normally, and 3,450 in hard conditions. There probably won't be an issue.

No mechanical penalties/bonuses are actually listed for a mule that scavenges vs. a mule that's properly fed with feed (which, incidentally, is a defined game item). If you want, make it something like -1 strength for as long as the beast is scavenging.

The speed of a wagon is actually listed in the SRD at 2 mph or 16 miles per day (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/movement.htm#overlandMovement), so that's not a problem.

The weight of the chest (25 lbs) would be for an empty chest - contents weigh more. As for how many bottles will fit in there? Well, volume is poorly defined in D&D. Find a chest, measure it, then find a wine bottle, and measure that. It'll give you a pretty good idea.

Oh, and don't forget raiders. The mule makes a pretty good target - it's only mildly valuable, and if they have their own mule stashed somewhere, disabling the party's mule is a great way to force the party to abandon the wagon....

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-08-15, 09:02 PM
What level is it that this is relevant? Past about 5, the party should be able to do without a mule for moving large amounts of stuff long distances.

The Dark Fiddler
2009-08-15, 09:11 PM
Oregon Trail you say?

Ford the river!

You have died of Dysentery.

dragoonsgone
2009-08-15, 10:37 PM
Have 2 mules. 4 if they are gonna ride on it.

I wouldn't double the drag like someone said, I think drags included. I just don't see a mule pulling 3.5 tons all day long very easily. That's a halfton truck. A half ton truck that ways 6800 lbs and has 345 horse power can pull 8,300 lbs. That's a lot faster than a wagon but that's also on a lot better axle and roads than you will probably have.

You only need feed in cities etc. Grass is better when its available anyway.

Flickerdart
2009-08-15, 10:39 PM
I'm sure creative enough players can Polymorph them into something carnivorous and feed them the bodies of their fallen enemies.

Xyk
2009-08-15, 10:41 PM
Oregon Trail you say?

Ford the river!

You have died of Dysentery.

I always hated that game but couldn't bring myself to put it down. Now I miss it.

sofawall
2009-08-15, 10:59 PM
http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/oregon.png

Would you look what xkcd put up...

Mando Knight
2009-08-15, 11:06 PM
http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/oregon.png

Would you look what xkcd put up...

It's funny because it's true to all who were in elementary school in the early 90's... :smalltongue:

sofawall
2009-08-15, 11:32 PM
Hey, count me!

Actually, no, we got it though, on the school computers. We also got Cross Country Canada (being Canadian) but it has no instructions, so we had to figure them out ourselves or go online to find them.

Sliver
2009-08-15, 11:57 PM
Most experienced adventureres would know stuff like "how much can we have our mule pull" or at least find out quickly. Asking about it is logical, but the "Players don't look!" part looks to me like you want to try to screw with your players because 1) they don't have full understanding of the world/animal/pulling ability of a mule. And you don't have it too, thats why you ask 2) you don't wan't them to maximize profits (what any person would like to do).
For it to have effect they can't find out about it when they just start to move, because then they just unload some stuff. Either you are trying to limit them by the load wan't to screw with them on the road..

I would find it annoying..
"So.. Your mule can't pull your wagon anymore.. You have too much stuff"
"Why didn't we know we overdo it when we were in town?"
"Oh you didn't know how much can a mule pull?"
"No, and you didn't too! You asked on the forums and didn't want us to look! You are giving us trouble because we actualy respected that?"

RTGoodman
2009-08-16, 12:00 AM
Hey, count me!

Actually, no, we got it though, on the school computers. We also got Cross Country Canada (being Canadian) but it has no instructions, so we had to figure them out ourselves or go online to find them.

Cross Country Canada, eh? We had Oregon Trail, Amazon Trail, and (my personal favorite) Museum Madness. Man, those were the days.


Er, on topic, I think Jack's right - it says right in the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/carryingCapacity.htm#liftingandDragging) that "favorable conditions" can double the amount something can drag, and I think wheels are definitely "favorable." Alternatively, you could just run the game like Champions of Norrath or Elder Scrolls or something - when they add too much, you tell them they've been hit with mass hold person (no save) until they get rid of some of it. :smalltongue:

TheCountAlucard
2009-08-16, 12:07 AM
Oregon Trail you say?

Ford the river!

You have died of Dysentery.You should have caulked the wagon and tried to float across. :smalltongue:

When I played Oregon Trail 2, I bought little other than bullets, bacon, and soap, because I didn't know what any of the other stuff is. Anacin?!?

sofawall
2009-08-16, 12:11 AM
Elder Scrolls

Adrenaline Surge!
Rest 24 hours.
Adrenaline Surge!
Rest 24 hours.
Adrenaline Surge!
You cannot rest while enemies are nearby.
$@$%^$@~!

jmbrown
2009-08-16, 12:16 AM
So, do I go by the Heavy Load as the max it can pull, or by the Drag? And do either incur speed, or other (like health) penalties on the poor beated mule?

Let's look at the math for pulling a wagon. It weighs 400lbs base and is pulled by two beasts of burden (we'll use light horses for this example). A wagon travels 2 miles per hour and we'll assume the overland travel example is for an empty wagon.

(2 * 5280) / 600 = 17.6

A wagon travels 17.6 feet per round. No medium sized SRD mount, even when under heavy encumbrance, moves less than 20' per round.

IMO a realistic conversion would be the heavy load. Dragging is for short distances (you can push or drag something a couple of feet before being physically exhausted).

A mule has a max heavy load of 690 lbs. Multiply that by 2 for two mules. Since they're sharing the weight of the wagon, subtract the mules heavy load by the wagon's weight to get the "weight factor" which is 230lbs (1380 - 1150). For two mules, pulling that wagon is a light load so they don't get a speed penalty.

(30 * 600) / 5280 = 3.4

The said wagon moves 3.4 miles per hour. I think this is realistic.


Currently, they agreed to deliver 20 5ftx5ft chests filled with very secret items, and each possessing an Amazing Lock (little secret treasure I put in there).


Now we have to determine volume and area. A wagon is normally a large object and is half as wide as it is long. We'll put it at the upper length of a large size creature so 16x8x8. Length times width gives us an area of 128' meaning if the entire floor was used they could shove that much feet worth of items on it.

A chest is 5x5 (area 25') so they could fit 5 chests on the floor. Since they have 20 chests that means they're stacking three more sets of chests on top of each other. Let's assume each chest is 1' tall to hold the wine bottles. They have 4' worth of height space left to shove stuff so those trail rations and cages better be tied down!


The Equipment section says a chest weighs 25lb. Does this include what you put in it? If not, how do I know how many wine bottles can fit into it? Notes: It says each wine bottle is 1/2lbs.

It's not very smart to carry bottles without some kind of packaging. Let's assume a bottle of wine plus hay packaging takes up a space of 6"x6"x1'. In your chests, two bottles will take up a 1x1' area so 20 bottles of wine could safely fit.



Also, what exactly counts as "feed" for a mule (sorry, not a country boy), and how long can the poor thing go before it falls over dead?

Feed for generic draft animals is a mix of corn, oats, barley, and sorghum, and soy. This is what most domestic and draft animals IRL are served. It's healthy, nutritious, and a better alternative to grazing.

IRL mules eat less than horses. When no feed is available they graze on grass and other grains. As a general rule, a traveling party shouldn't have to worry about feeding their mounts unless they're traveling through low foliage areas. An herbivore's metabolism is pretty amazing and the draft animals we use (horses, mules, donkeys, and camels) were popularized because they're active for a long time while requiring little in the way of food.

KillianHawkeye
2009-08-16, 08:57 AM
A chest is 5x5 (area 25') so they could fit 5 chests on the floor. Since they have 20 chests that means they're stacking three more sets of chests on top of each other. Let's assume each chest is 1' tall to hold the wine bottles. They have 4' worth of height space left to shove stuff so those trail rations and cages better be tied down!

Not to diss the mathematical approach, but these are the strangest chests I have ever heard of. They're 5' long and 5' wide, but only 1' tall??? :smallconfused::smallconfused:

How about something more realistic, like 4' x 2' x 2'? Or it could be smaller, the PHB never mentions what size a chest is.

Flickerdart
2009-08-16, 09:38 AM
Hey, count me!

Actually, no, we got it though, on the school computers. We also got Cross Country Canada (being Canadian) but it has no instructions, so we had to figure them out ourselves or go online to find them.
Cross-Country Canada was hardcore, man. Possibly the best trucking game out there, though when you consider its competition is the likes of Big Rigs, that's not much of an accomplishment.

Cieyrin
2009-08-16, 09:59 AM
Yeah, when I saw people saying they should be using the mule's drag weight limit, a couple alarms went off in my head, as if you look at the encumbrance rules, the lift off the ground weigh has you staggering around at 5' per round, so i assume dragging is just as slow, which isn't conducive to traveling very far or fast. Using Heavy load is probably a good approximation, doubled if you're using a wheeled device like a wagon, so 690 normal, 1380 w/ wagon per mule.

The mule at a heavy load moves at 20 feet, which is probably from where the overland wagon speed comes from. I'd definitely recommend getting more than one mule, as a) you'll better distribute the weight between mules and b) if you lose some mules while traveling, you won't be utterly screwed over, as losing one when you only have 1 leaves you stranded; losing a mule when you have 3 or 4 means the others can take up the slack and you can continue the trip, perhaps at a reduced rate, depending on how you much you load up the wagon.

I agree with Killian on the chest thing, too, as no chest takes up a 5 x 5 square by itself. I own a chest and the thing certainly isn't that massive. 4'x2'x2' is probably more reasonable then the flatbed pallets that the OP is talking about. If we adjust jmbrown's calculations a bit, as his wagon approximation isn't that out there, i'd say, though the wagon dimensions I found from a brief Google Search (from an Oregon Trail wannabe site, no less :smallbiggrin:) states a wagon is 10' by 4'. On the other hand, if we don't want our donkeys squeezing to pull the thing, we'll up it to 10' x 8', so 80' of space in the back of that wagon. Each chest takes up about 8' of space, so you could fit the 20 chests in 2 layers or so, just make sure those things are properly lashed in place so you don't go losing chests while traveling. We'll give the wagon 8' of vertical space, like jmbrown suggests, leaving 4' of vertical height, which should be enough to hold the chicken cages and food. (Don't forget chicken food, unless you don't mind starving chickens yelling at you!) So we're basically taking a 10' x 10' x 10' room down the road. :smalltongue:

Given how stuffed that wagon is already, I'd suggest probably covering the mounds of chest w/ the winter blankets, so as to be less conspicuous to the world and probably hiring a teamster to drive the wagon, as I doubt any of your PCs have Profession(teamster). The PCs are also walking beside that wagon, rather than riding it, since they'll easily outpace the silly thing, anyways, since it's going Mach Dwarf, anyways.

Oh, before I forget, jmbrown's approx for wine bottles is probably right on, so the adjusted figures for chest capacity would put it at 4 bottles by 8 bottles or 32 bottles per chest, round down to 30 for extra padding so they get there in one piece and not as a mess of wine-drenched hay. (@jmbrown, 2 bottles wouldn't make up a 1' x 1' x 1' space, that'd allow for 4 bottles. 2 bottles fills up 6' x 1' x 1'.:smalltongue:)

So, assuming 30 bottles per chest and if all chests are full of wine bottles, that's 30x20x.5 or 300 more pounds of wine bottles. So 1450 lbs. total, which would be beyond a normal mule's heavy weight capacity, even w/ the doubling for wheels, so you're gonna need a second mule, at least. 2 mules at wheeled heavy capacity could move 2760 pounds, so they can at least move it, albeit slowly. 2 mules at wheeled medium capacity is 1840 pounds, so they're not quite as screwed. 2 mules at wheeled light capacity is 920 pounds, so you're spot on at medium capacity, which is standard wagon speed. If you want them at light wheeled capacity, you'd need 4 mules, who can haul 1840 pounds as a light load.

Them's my 2 mathematical calculations. Take as you will.

Pika...
2009-08-16, 01:35 PM
For it to have effect they can't find out about it when they just start to move, because then they just unload some stuff. Either you are trying to limit them by the load wan't to screw with them on the road..


Well, it has to do with the plot.

Current situation:

PCs agreed to transport these chests into very dangerous territory, for a fellow who clearly looked very cutthroat and dangerous.
Said person made it very clear that the "rightful owners" are even more so, and that they were the ones who would pay them.
The NPC asked them how many chests they were willing to take custody off. They talked about it very greedily for a bit.
The PCs were dead broke at the time, so had no way of getting a wagon or even a mule. They decide to cut a deal with a friendly, yet still pretty greedy, NPC they know for the gear they need. Said NPC is taking 10% off the top of their profits, and while friendly to them is currently invested in the trip, and is not fond of losing money.
They measured the raggedy wagon to see how many chests they can stuff in there. I said 20 could fill it too the top. They immediately ran to the first NPC and said 20.


So I am not so much trying to "screw with them", at least not just for my laughs and giggles. I am doing it for plot reasons. For if they find they can no longer transport the cargo as promised, well there will suddenly be some major NPC enemies hunting them down (Plot Hook!!!!!), but if they manage to succeed against the odds and finish the job they will be presented with the option for a very profitable career in trading.





Oh, and don't forget raiders. The mule makes a pretty good target - it's only mildly valuable, and if they have their own mule stashed somewhere, disabling the party's mule is a great way to force the party to abandon the wagon....

Dude, that is an amazing idea! I love it. Thank you. http://forums.gleemax.com/images/smilies/plotting.gif

That is how I need to think if I want to be a decent DM...

Milskidasith
2009-08-16, 01:37 PM
Here's a question: How can your PCs be so broke as to be unable to afford a mule, but perfectly able to afford equipment? And if they are so poor, they are probably level 1; why are they being trusted with absurdly valuable treasure?

Pika...
2009-08-16, 01:42 PM
You should have caulked the wagon and tried to float across. :smalltongue:

When I played Oregon Trail 2, I bought little other than bullets, bacon, and soap, because I didn't know what any of the other stuff is. Anacin?!?

I was wondering how I was going to get them across a major river in their way.


Anyone got any ideas what-so-ever for mechanics for this. :smallbiggrin:

Pika...
2009-08-16, 01:48 PM
Here's a question: How can your PCs be so broke as to be unable to afford a mule, but perfectly able to afford equipment? And if they are so poor, they are probably level 1; why are they being trusted with absurdly valuable treasure?

You guessed it. Level 1.

And it was because the first NPC was an elf of some kind. One of the PCs is an adept (the equivalent of a cleric in my setting) of Corellon.

Who better to trust than a direct representative to your creator deity?

Also, they were all currently "working" as soldiers at the fort/trading post he was in, and another of the three PCs was a Wood Elf Ranger, and the other was a Hill Dwarf (Elves and Dwarves have a somewhat strange kinship, although they will NEVER admit it. Think the Elf and Dwarf in Lord of the Rings). All these things combined made him decide on them. The adept/holy spellcaster especially.

Milskidasith
2009-08-16, 01:50 PM
That still doesn't explained how they can't afford a mule... it's like, a tenth of one players wealth by level, and it's perfectly reasonable that, as people who work for the military, they have access to the stables.

Honestly, based on that and your other comments, it seems like you want to screw your players over instead of working with them.

RTGoodman
2009-08-16, 01:57 PM
I was wondering how I was going to get them across a major river in their way.

Anyone got any ideas what-so-ever for mechanics for this. :smallbiggrin:

If you want Oregon Trail rules, try rolling a d%. 1-80, they fail, 81-00 they succeed. (Or, at least, that's how it always seemed to go for me. :smallannoyed:)

If you want something a bit more fair, just have them roll a skill check (if someone has a Profession or Craft skill that might be somewhat related), or just have them make a straight Int check. That should cover it.

Pika...
2009-08-16, 02:07 PM
That still doesn't explained how they can't afford a mule... it's like, a tenth of one players wealth by level, and it's perfectly reasonable that, as people who work for the military, they have access to the stables.

Honestly, based on that and your other comments, it seems like you want to screw your players over instead of working with them.

Well, the funny thing is we had just started our campaign, and within the first 10 minutes they "accidentally" (aka brutally) killed a wondering goblin that was wondering by their campsite foraging for food. The fort the are now in is part of a young kingdom, whose king (a former PC) sort of conquered the goblin's tribe in my fist campaign in this setting/world. So, they got arrested within 15 minutes in the game, and were tried. The fortress' leader (who was also the noble of the land) offered them the option of either being bound servants to the goblins family for a year, or to be drafted to the military for five solar cycles. They chose the military. They were given two months probation at an untrained laborer's salary instead of a trained solderer's level salary.

Anyway, roleplaying wise we got near the end of the two months probation, and they received their 1sp a day. However, one of the PCs set fire to the barracks, and damaged some traders' wagons. So now they have lost their pay, and will for a while... (I did not plan any of this! It is a sandbox world. :smalleek:)

Anyways, after the fire the furious fortress commander/noble was barely heald back from chopping their heads off. Instead, another regular NPC got him to give them a two-week leave to get them the hell out off there. I had planned for them to visit the various settlements of my "home" kingdom, but what do the players do? They decide to use Gather Information around the fort to look for work.

So basically hey got themselves into this mess by themselves. I did not lead them by the nose anywhere. I am just improvising, and trying to make things realistic and fun, while continuing in the plot path they chose to take for themselves. Hence why I love sandbox worlds. :smallsmile:


p.s. Also, this is a very "wilderness" world/continent, with communities and settlements very far apart. So knowing all this has helped me greatly so far, since it was all information I would have eventually needed to know anyway.

Random832
2009-08-16, 02:10 PM
Now - there are formulas in the Arms & Equipment Guide for this:

"Pull weight" is one quarter of the actual weight for a wheeled vehicle (including the weight of the vehicle itself), divided among the creatures pulling it. Heavy load for a STR 16 Medium Quadruped is 345lb, so the total weight of the wagon and all cargo together can be 1,380 lb. A wagon weighs 400lb empty, so figure 980 lb of cargo for a wagon pulled by a single donkey at 20 ft/round.

Admiral Squish
2009-08-16, 02:20 PM
Has anyone mentioned the party fighter could probably take over if the mule gets taken out? That, or polymorph some random trail-critter into a mule and do it that way.

Siosilvar
2009-08-16, 02:23 PM
Has anyone mentioned the party fighter could probably take over if the mule gets taken out? That, or polymorph some random trail-critter into a mule and do it that way.

At level 1? I don't think so.

Sinfire Titan
2009-08-16, 02:23 PM
Adrenaline Surge!
Rest 24 hours.
Adrenaline Surge!
Rest 24 hours.
Adrenaline Surge!
You cannot rest while enemies are nearby.
$@$%^$@~!

100% Chameleon Armor in Oblivion>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Damn near everything else in the game. Nothing can see you unless it has Detect Life active at all times, and your Sneak Skill can be high enough that even those can't find you.


I miss my 360...

Pika...
2009-08-16, 02:24 PM
Let's look at the math for pulling a wagon. It weighs 400lbs base and is pulled by two beasts of burden (we'll use light horses for this example). A wagon travels 2 miles per hour and we'll assume the overland travel example is for an empty wagon.

(2 * 5280) / 600 = 17.6

A wagon travels 17.6 feet per round. No medium sized SRD mount, even when under heavy encumbrance, moves less than 20' per round.

IMO a realistic conversion would be the heavy load. Dragging is for short distances (you can push or drag something a couple of feet before being physically exhausted).

A mule has a max heavy load of 690 lbs. Multiply that by 2 for two mules. Since they're sharing the weight of the wagon, subtract the mules heavy load by the wagon's weight to get the "weight factor" which is 230lbs (1380 - 1150). For two mules, pulling that wagon is a light load so they don't get a speed penalty.

(30 * 600) / 5280 = 3.4

The said wagon moves 3.4 miles per hour. I think this is realistic.



Now we have to determine volume and area. A wagon is normally a large object and is half as wide as it is long. We'll put it at the upper length of a large size creature so 16x8x8. Length times width gives us an area of 128' meaning if the entire floor was used they could shove that much feet worth of items on it.

A chest is 5x5 (area 25') so they could fit 5 chests on the floor. Since they have 20 chests that means they're stacking three more sets of chests on top of each other. Let's assume each chest is 1' tall to hold the wine bottles. They have 4' worth of height space left to shove stuff so those trail rations and cages better be tied down!



It's not very smart to carry bottles without some kind of packaging. Let's assume a bottle of wine plus hay packaging takes up a space of 6"x6"x1'. In your chests, two bottles will take up a 1x1' area so 20 bottles of wine could safely fit.



Feed for generic draft animals is a mix of corn, oats, barley, and sorghum, and soy. This is what most domestic and draft animals IRL are served. It's healthy, nutritious, and a better alternative to grazing.

IRL mules eat less than horses. When no feed is available they graze on grass and other grains. As a general rule, a traveling party shouldn't have to worry about feeding their mounts unless they're traveling through low foliage areas. An herbivore's metabolism is pretty amazing and the draft animals we use (horses, mules, donkeys, and camels) were popularized because they're active for a long time while requiring little in the way of food.


Wow.

Sincerely, thank you so much for going into such detail for me. I truly appreciate it!

You helped me right down to how much space they have left in there.


p.s. Are you a math major or something?

jmbrown
2009-08-16, 02:56 PM
No, I failed math as two other people pointed out. I spent about two hours on google looking up the formula for area and volume and still got it wrong but glad I could help!

Pika...
2009-08-16, 03:26 PM
Yeah, when I saw people saying they should be using the mule's drag weight limit, a couple alarms went off in my head, as if you look at the encumbrance rules, the lift off the ground weigh has you staggering around at 5' per round, so i assume dragging is just as slow, which isn't conducive to traveling very far or fast. Using Heavy load is probably a good approximation, doubled if you're using a wheeled device like a wagon, so 690 normal, 1380 w/ wagon per mule.

The mule at a heavy load moves at 20 feet, which is probably from where the overland wagon speed comes from. I'd definitely recommend getting more than one mule, as a) you'll better distribute the weight between mules and b) if you lose some mules while traveling, you won't be utterly screwed over, as losing one when you only have 1 leaves you stranded; losing a mule when you have 3 or 4 means the others can take up the slack and you can continue the trip, perhaps at a reduced rate, depending on how you much you load up the wagon.

I agree with Killian on the chest thing, too, as no chest takes up a 5 x 5 square by itself. I own a chest and the thing certainly isn't that massive. 4'x2'x2' is probably more reasonable then the flatbed pallets that the OP is talking about. If we adjust jmbrown's calculations a bit, as his wagon approximation isn't that out there, i'd say, though the wagon dimensions I found from a brief Google Search (from an Oregon Trail wannabe site, no less :smallbiggrin:) states a wagon is 10' by 4'. On the other hand, if we don't want our donkeys squeezing to pull the thing, we'll up it to 10' x 8', so 80' of space in the back of that wagon. Each chest takes up about 8' of space, so you could fit the 20 chests in 2 layers or so, just make sure those things are properly lashed in place so you don't go losing chests while traveling. We'll give the wagon 8' of vertical space, like jmbrown suggests, leaving 4' of vertical height, which should be enough to hold the chicken cages and food. (Don't forget chicken food, unless you don't mind starving chickens yelling at you!) So we're basically taking a 10' x 10' x 10' room down the road. :smalltongue:

Given how stuffed that wagon is already, I'd suggest probably covering the mounds of chest w/ the winter blankets, so as to be less conspicuous to the world and probably hiring a teamster to drive the wagon, as I doubt any of your PCs have Profession(teamster). The PCs are also walking beside that wagon, rather than riding it, since they'll easily outpace the silly thing, anyways, since it's going Mach Dwarf, anyways.

Oh, before I forget, jmbrown's approx for wine bottles is probably right on, so the adjusted figures for chest capacity would put it at 4 bottles by 8 bottles or 32 bottles per chest, round down to 30 for extra padding so they get there in one piece and not as a mess of wine-drenched hay. (@jmbrown, 2 bottles wouldn't make up a 1' x 1' x 1' space, that'd allow for 4 bottles. 2 bottles fills up 6' x 1' x 1'.:smalltongue:)

So, assuming 30 bottles per chest and if all chests are full of wine bottles, that's 30x20x.5 or 300 more pounds of wine bottles. So 1450 lbs. total, which would be beyond a normal mule's heavy weight capacity, even w/ the doubling for wheels, so you're gonna need a second mule, at least. 2 mules at wheeled heavy capacity could move 2760 pounds, so they can at least move it, albeit slowly. 2 mules at wheeled medium capacity is 1840 pounds, so they're not quite as screwed. 2 mules at wheeled light capacity is 920 pounds, so you're spot on at medium capacity, which is standard wagon speed. If you want them at light wheeled capacity, you'd need 4 mules, who can haul 1840 pounds as a light load.

Them's my 2 mathematical calculations. Take as you will.

Thanks as well!

Much help indeed.


p.s. Thanks for the chicken idea! The PCs completely forgot about the feed for the chicken, and the cow and two pigs (they are tied to the wagon, so I did not include them as weight).

p.s.3. One of the players is a Wood Elf Ranger, and if I remember correctly he does have Handle Animal. Would he be able to fill in for the teamster, os is that completely different?

Random832
2009-08-16, 04:32 PM
In the AEG, a wagon (the same wagon as in the PH, since its base weight is 400lb) is 10'x15', not 4'x10'.

jmbrown
2009-08-16, 07:03 PM
p.s.3. One of the players is a Wood Elf Ranger, and if I remember correctly he does have Handle Animal. Would he be able to fill in for the teamster, os is that completely different?

Handle animal is used for training animals. Since you actually need someone with skills to drive the wagon I'd say no. They should make an average intelligence check (DC 10) each day to basically guide the animals, knowing when a path is too treacherous, knowing whether the current speed will cause strain on the wheels, etc. Failing means they only move at half speed for that day.

Cieyrin
2009-08-16, 07:26 PM
Handle animal is used for training animals. Since you actually need someone with skills to drive the wagon I'd say no. They should make an average intelligence check (DC 10) each day to basically guide the animals, knowing when a path is too treacherous, knowing whether the current speed will cause strain on the wheels, etc. Failing means they only move at half speed for that day.

Given that NPC teamsters have Profession(Teamster) for driving vehicles and Profession is a Wisdom based skill, I would say a Wisdom check would be more appropriate.

As for Handle Animal, that's only part of the process of getting a wagon going, as you have to deal with the wagon as well, not just the beasts pulling it. I would rule that you could perhaps Push the draft animals to work the drive the wagon, instead of using Profession(Teamster), which works fine in my book, as the higher DC of 25 goes w/ the partial solution skill of Handle Animal, as opposed to a Profession(Teamster) check of probably DC 15.

The pushing is probably within the Ranger's reach, especially if the other characters assist in his checks. He probably has a bonus of at least +4 to Handle Animal and the 3 other characters, if they successfully assist, give him +6, for a +10 to make that DC 25 check. Still tough but at least possible.

@Random: I said my example wagon, which i got from some Oregon Trail wannabe site, said 10' x 4', which I increased to 10' by 8'. I didn't happen to have my AEG handy, as otherwise I'd have definitely gone by that.

Anyways, if going by the AEG stats, that's 150' of space, so you can squeeze in 18 chests into one layer and stick the last 2 and the rest of the stuff on top of it, again hopefully lashed properly to prevent losing anything during travel.

Using the AEG pull weight formula, nicely produced by Random, against the 1450 lbs, shows that you'd need to have 2 donkeys to pull all that weight effectively.

Them's my 2 coppers. Take as you will.

P.S. My degree is in Software Engineering, not Mathematics, though I do have a Minor in Mathematics. :smalltongue:

derfenrirwolv
2009-08-16, 07:39 PM
Handle animal is explicitly the skill used for this.


Handle an Animal

This task involves commanding an animal to perform a task or trick that it knows. If the animal is wounded or has taken any nonlethal damage or ability score damage, the DC increases by 2. If your check succeeds, the animal performs the task or trick on its next action.

Specifically, you want the animal to do this trick


Work (DC 15): The animal pulls or pushes a medium or heavy load.


Which hopefully it knows. It should know Heavy Labor (DC 15): An animal trained for heavy labor knows the tricks come and work. Training an animal for heavy labor takes two weeks.


http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/handleAnimal.htm


Requiring a stat check instead of a skill check is bound to be a disaster. Even with an 18 wisdom you'd fail a dc 15 check (the lowest normally asked for) half the time.

Cieyrin
2009-08-16, 09:26 PM
I would hope a mule was trained in Heavy Labor. That's basically what they're good for, hauling stuff.

derfenrirwolv
2009-08-16, 09:32 PM
I would hope a mule was trained in Heavy Labor. That's basically what they're good for, hauling stuff.

But too much fun for the dm if the things getting trained on the way. That way the ranger can feel useful for investing in the skill, and the jokes about the mules trying to kick or eat party members has a reason to wear off before they get old...

Kylarra
2009-08-16, 10:10 PM
But too much fun for the dm if the things getting trained on the way. That way the ranger can feel useful for investing in the skill, and the jokes about the mules trying to kick or eat party members has a reason to wear off before they get old...That'd depend on how they acquired the mule and how sadistic their DM is feeling though... normally purchased mules are "trained". :p

Cieyrin
2009-08-16, 10:42 PM
I'd hope they come trained. Getting wild mules is probably cheaper in the short run but a real pain in the ass (couldn't help myself :smalltongue:).

Fizban
2009-08-17, 12:43 AM
I do hope people aren't using Donkey and Mule interchangeably, because they have way different stats. A Donkey can't pull squat, while a mule pulls more than a light horse (at a slower speed). Medium with 10 strength versus large with 16 strength, huge difference. Same price though, I guess the sterility is a big factor. Doesn't matter for adventurers.

Sliver
2009-08-17, 02:33 AM
Well, it has to do with the plot.

Current situation:

PCs agreed to transport these chests into very dangerous territory, for a fellow who clearly looked very cutthroat and dangerous.
Said person made it very clear that the "rightful owners" are even more so, and that they were the ones who would pay them.
The NPC asked them how many chests they were willing to take custody off. They talked about it very greedily for a bit.
The PCs were dead broke at the time, so had no way of getting a wagon or even a mule. They decide to cut a deal with a friendly, yet still pretty greedy, NPC they know for the gear they need. Said NPC is taking 10% off the top of their profits, and while friendly to them is currently invested in the trip, and is not fond of losing money.
They measured the raggedy wagon to see how many chests they can stuff in there. I said 20 could fill it too the top. They immediately ran to the first NPC and said 20.


So I am not so much trying to "screw with them", at least not just for my laughs and giggles. I am doing it for plot reasons. For if they find they can no longer transport the cargo as promised, well there will suddenly be some major NPC enemies hunting them down (Plot Hook!!!!!), but if they manage to succeed against the odds and finish the job they will be presented with the option for a very profitable career in trading.

Or they see the mule has tough time doing it, anyone with half decent wisdom figures it won't be able to make it and they return some of the chests...

Pika...
2009-08-17, 10:38 AM
Or they see the mule has tough time doing it, anyone with half decent wisdom figures it won't be able to make it and they return some of the chests...

I kinda gave them a 12 hour period to test that out. They decided to have the crafting dwarf reinforce the old smelly orc wagon with new bolts and metal strips. They did not even keep an eye on said NPC, which I had decided before hand would disappear from the outpost once he had assured the party's supplies had been delivered (12 at night).

It was only our first session, so I am hoping to get them in the right thinking and roleplaying state. I did tell them before the game started that while I enjoy "fun" and humors groups, I am attempting to run a somewhat "gritty" and Gygaxian world. Let's just say the Ranger was smart enough to ask me as soon as the session started "I am guessing you keep track of water and rasions, right". I grinned and said "Yup. Damn, I wanted to have fun with that", and then the group broke into laughter (which might IU add helped break the ice).


p.s. The dwarf basically did a repair check to "reinforce" the wagon when the party asked him to, even though it was not truly necessary. How can I reward them mechanically for thinking ahead like this, and passing his check with flying colors?

Kylarra
2009-08-17, 11:13 AM
p.s. The dwarf basically did a repair check to "reinforce" the wagon when the party asked him to, even though it was not truly necessary. How can I reward them mechanically for thinking ahead like this, and passing his check with flying colors?Exp is the general reward for overcoming obstacles... :smalltongue:

Telonius
2009-08-17, 11:39 AM
I was wondering how I was going to get them across a major river in their way.


Anyone got any ideas what-so-ever for mechanics for this. :smallbiggrin:

You could always have them pay an Indian. Though those ^&*@# Indians always seemed to send my wagon to certain doom anyway.

Milskidasith
2009-08-17, 11:41 AM
Wait, you were intending to not tell them they had to keep track of rations, and then tell them they all starved?

Further reinforcement that your style of DMing is "make the players hate you for your own enjoyment."

Pika...
2009-08-17, 11:51 AM
Wait, you were intending to not tell them they had to keep track of rations, and then tell them they all starved?

Further reinforcement that your style of DMing is "make the players hate you for your own enjoyment."

You do know some people still enjoy the Gaygaxian style of game? The rations trick/jke/whatever was actually one of his. I played under a DM, who played under the very man, who had it pulled on him. He seemed to have it as a fond memory (I envy the guy...). Pre-3ed this was the norm (just ask the scared older players lurking around here), to the point of making the greybeards paranoid, and they loved it. 3ed is when the paradigm shifted to the default of today. I am trying my best to mix the two.

A spoke afterward in the parking lot of the store we played in with the ranger's player, and he told me he liked the way I was making them think.

The adept's player told me "It's kinda different having to roleplay more, but you just have to get use to it I guess. It was fun, though".

Pika...
2009-08-17, 11:55 AM
You could always have them pay an Indian. Though those ^&*@# Indians always seemed to send my wagon to certain doom anyway.

Well, the major Wild Elf tribe of that continent does make an annual migration over said river, and it is currently October on said world. :smallbiggrin:

Milskidasith
2009-08-17, 11:56 AM
See, that's the thing. Having people keep track of rations is fine. Not telling them they need to keep track of rations, and then punishing them, is just getting your kicks off the PCs dying.

If you don't tell them the rules you are playing, and then punish them for not following them... I don't see how it could be fun for the players. I could see how it would be fun if you did something like made rations limited, but told the players that they needed to keep track of them, but not telling them just seems needlessly cruel, especially if you let rations be easily available later.

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-08-17, 11:58 AM
You know, that fighter with the 22 strength looks awfully convenient right now... :smallbiggrin:

AstralFire
2009-08-17, 12:00 PM
See, that's the thing. Having people keep track of rations is fine. Not telling them they need to keep track of rations, and then punishing them, is just getting your kicks off the PCs dying.

If you don't tell them the rules you are playing, and then punish them for not following them... I don't see how it could be fun for the players. I could see how it would be fun if you did something like made rations limited, but told the players that they needed to keep track of them, but not telling them just seems needlessly cruel, especially if you let rations be easily available later.

Different people gain enjoyment from different ways of playing. -shrug-

Kylarra
2009-08-17, 12:05 PM
Different people gain enjoyment from different ways of playing. -shrug-Not getting expectations out in the clear is a good way to end the campaign prematurely and likely to not see you as DM again, if that's your goal, then more power to you, but I suspect that most DMs would rather keep playing.

Pika...
2009-08-17, 12:10 PM
See, that's the thing. Having people keep track of rations is fine. Not telling them they need to keep track of rations, and then punishing them, is just getting your kicks off the PCs dying.

If you don't tell them the rules you are playing, and then punish them for not following them... I don't see how it could be fun for the players. I could see how it would be fun if you did something like made rations limited, but told the players that they needed to keep track of them, but not telling them just seems needlessly cruel, especially if you let rations be easily available later.

Well, it worked well for the bedroll in our first session.

Before they went to sleep the first night I asked to see their character sheets.

Later on when the night was over, I told the ranger he woke up somewhat tired and fatigued. Then followed by reading the rules on fatigued.

There was some confusion. They talked it over a bit, and tried to figure it out (got them working together very early, which surprised me).

Text night, asked to see their sheets again. They thought they figured it out, and gave the ranger the entire night off guard duty to "not get interrupted". In the morning I told him he still felt a bit fatigued, an when he cleverly asked how he felt, I mentioned his back was really sore. DING! They all broke down into smiles and laughed.


Note: Technically, by the rules anything that would make one fatigued would make someone who is already fatiged exhausted. Did I do that? Hmm?

AstralFire
2009-08-17, 12:11 PM
Not getting expectations out in the clear is a good way to end the campaign prematurely and likely to not see you as DM again, if that's your goal, then more power to you, but I suspect that most DMs would rather keep playing.

I play the way you say, but it worked for Gygax and others, so I presume that if you have good social cohesion and the right group of players... Pika seems to have gauged his players reactions well.

Kylarra
2009-08-17, 12:22 PM
I play the way you say, but it worked for Gygax and others, so I presume that if you have good social cohesion and the right group of players... Pika seems to have gauged his players reactions well.That's why you have to get expectations out in the clear in the first session. "What sort of campaign are we running?" is a good one. If it's clear that the campaign is going to be "Gygaxian" in nature, and everyone is fine with it, then yes, it's okay to make random things up or have things become relevant without warning, because that's what the players are expecting. If they aren't expecting harsh simulationism and instead wanted a game that focuses on other aspects, well then they'll be pretty upset when you pull "random jerkwad rules" on them.

Pika...
2009-08-17, 12:25 PM
That's why you have to get expectations out in the clear in the first session. "What sort of campaign are we running?" is a good one. If it's clear that the campaign is going to be "Gygaxian" in nature, and everyone is fine with it, then yes, it's okay to make random things up or have things become relevant without warning, because that's what the players are expecting. If they aren't expecting harsh simulationism and instead wanted a game that focuses on other aspects, well then they'll be pretty upset when you pull "random jerkwad rules" on them.

^ Post #44

Kylarra
2009-08-17, 12:28 PM
^ Post #44I'm talking about simulationist DMs in general. :smalltongue:

Pika...
2009-08-17, 03:01 PM
I'm talking about simulationist DMs in general. :smalltongue:

My apologies. :smallredface:


p.s. "simulationist DM"; is that the term for what I am trying to be? Can you define or explain it more?

daggaz
2009-08-17, 03:08 PM
The first day out, let them kill a buffalo. Tell them it is enough food to feed them for two weeks.

The second day out, the wagon tongue breaks. What, they didn't buy an extra wagon tongue? Are they crazy??

The third day, everybody dies of dissentary.

sofawall
2009-08-17, 03:30 PM
This is destined to see much use...

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/oregon.png

derfenrirwolv
2009-08-17, 06:48 PM
This is destined to see much use...

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/oregon.png

Its good, but you left out the part where you stop by the grave of peperoni and cheese.

Pika...
2009-08-18, 04:16 PM
Thank you for the help so far guys. It will hopefully come in very useful.

I just got an idea inspired by rereading this thread to improve the pretty basic plot I am working with, so can I run it pass you all to see what you think?


Here is a bit more spoiler on the plot of this subplot/story/hook/whatever (Players don't look!!!):

In reality, it is the gnoll "queen" who is secretly having these wine bottles traded for.

This wine is actually that elven wine from the brewing atrticle in one of the Dragon Magazine issues which causes the drinker to feel youthful after they drink it for eight hours (or was it 24?). It basically negates the aging penalties for being past middle age.

The gnoll "queen" took over the neighboring tribes some 30ish years ago, and if she is going to keep the gnoll bands and tribes together against her opponent the "Big Boss" of the Orc Mega Tribe to their south she can not afford to seem weak and aging at the moment. Because of this she is secretly seeking some of this VERY valuable wine, even though she despises the idea of drinking this elven made stuff. Not to mention the rumor of her weakening would probably drive the orc "Big Boss" into all-out war for her head.

She will gladly have anyone killed to hide all this.

Currently the PCs are about to set off to (attempt) to bring this wine to a smaller satellite tribe/settlement/fortress/fort/whatever located from the main cave complex+outer tents/buildings in progress(thanks for this idea dude!) "capital" of the Gnoll "queen". However, they are not really sure where they are heading.


(If you read that, thanks.)

Anyway, what I am thinking is that said NPC would probably not want it's identity known at all. Perhaps even that trade was done there?

I am thinking that perhaps I can make so the whole point was originally a trap. The Gnolls actually know they are coming, and have been instructed by a secret sub-NPC to have the wagon raided to acquire the cargo, while killing off (or enslaving?) the PCs. The original Elf NPC who hired them knew about this the whole time.

So now the PCs not only have to survive other obstacles and rivals of the Gnolls in the hopes of getting their to receive what orinially seemed like a very handsome pay, but then have to deal with the fact that if they manage to get there they are now in the "Oh S%^&" survival situation/adventure trope.


So what do the pros here think of this little twist?

Any ideas for how to work with this, and possibly expand on it?

Perhaps some advice for how I can plan for such a complex web of things (I am still a pretty new DM)?


Thanks!

Milskidasith
2009-08-18, 04:19 PM
Did they get a sense motive check on the elven trader? If you are suddenly changing things like this, they should have already failed their sense motive check (and have gotten one, at least a "hidden" DM check.)

If they didn't fail their sense motive earlier, then while the plot does seem interesting, it's a really big jerk DM moment.

Pika...
2009-08-18, 04:29 PM
Did they get a sense motive check on the elven trader? If you are suddenly changing things like this, they should have already failed their sense motive check (and have gotten one, at least a "hidden" DM check.)

If they didn't fail their sense motive earlier, then while the plot does seem interesting, it's a really big jerk DM moment.

I accounted the nameless Elf trader as a 6th level expert on the spot when they did their Gather Information check to find work and succeeded. I figured he maxed ranks in Bluff (considering who he dealt with), so that was 9 right there. I gave him Persuasion as one of his feats (the only one I worried about at the moment), so +2.

The adept was smart enough to try Sense Motive on him. Bit got a total of 14. To not roll in front of them (to not reveal whether he was lying or not by me having rolled a dice Out-of-Game) I decided to giv ehim a static 10 before the PC rolled.

My reply to the PC when he asked "I would like to try and Sense Motive what intentions he has for him was "He seems very interested in you.".

Pika...
2009-08-18, 04:32 PM
p.s. Please also consider that this is a sandbox style world, where I litterly told the player "I will not run you by the nose in an A to B to Z module-like game. Do as you feel your players would.". Hence I need to do a lot of improv work, and then put the pieces the PCs gave me together afterwords during the week of planning.

imp_fireball
2009-08-18, 06:24 PM
How much can a mule pull? Depends on its strength rating. Read the SRD to find out the bonus quadrapedals get over bipedals in regards to lifting.

What qualifies as feed for it? Make something up. Or just say anything except salt water and your typical generic people-poison - unless you want an adventure involving a forest full of poisonous mushrooms and shrubbery. Even the latter can be covered by secretly making a survival check using the party's highest modifier to determine if they pick up bad herbs (you can also just call them 'strange herbs that kill' and then 'good herbs' for particularly high checks to reduce rest time or increase rested healing/affect recovery, ie.).