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View Full Version : [3.5] Optimized Dagger Thrower, Can It Be Done?



Delandel
2009-08-15, 10:40 PM
Ever since I was introduced to D&D two years ago there were two character concepts that I always wanted to explore.

1) A deadly throwing dagger combatant. Something of a Bullseye character, raining pointy metal death at his opponents.
2) A crazy gnome alchemical / construct inventor chucking wierd yet devastating contraptions at his opponents, like mechanical sheep that charge the enemy and bleat loudly as they explode for splash damage.

I don't think my crazy gnome idea will ever fly, but I'm sure I could make my dagger-thrower dude. I just don't know how best to go about doing it.



Books: Core + Completes + ToB + UA
Stats: I'd like to see what I can do with 32pt, but I'd love to hear crazy MAD builds if I'm missing out on something.
Level: I'd like the character to be useful at all levels. I've never played above level 10, so pre-10 effectiveness would be a big bonus.
Items: Suggestions on how to gear up would be greatly appreciated.
Other: I'd like to avoid stinky cheese, but everything else is cool.



PHB + Completes, the best I've come up with is this:

Bob (lvl 6 snapshot): Human Swashbuckler 1 / Fighter 4 / Master Thrower 1

With this build I only see two very useful stats: DEX and CON. With 32pt buy I could make both start at 18, or lower CON and make the other stats at least 10.

Feats: Weapon Finesse (swashbuckler), point-blank shot (human), weapon focus - dagger (lvl 1), precise shot (fighter), rapid shot (lvl 3), TWF (fighter), weapon specialization - dagger (fighter), quick draw (master thrower), ITWF (lvl 6)

Master Thrower: Thrown Weapon Trick - Palm Throw

Normal Attack (palm throw): +11 1d4+2 (19-20/x2), two of them, average 8 damage
Full Attack (rapid shot, palm throw): +7/+7/+7/+2/+2, average 40 damage if it hits (and not all of them will)

Pretty bleak look at level 6. It would get better by level 10 with master thrower's weak spot trick letting me hit with a ranged touch attack, but still pretty underwhelming.

How do you make this concept really shine?

Flickerdart
2009-08-15, 10:41 PM
You'll definitely want Returning daggers, for one. Also, Thri-Keen or Xill for more limbs doubles your output of pointy death.

Keld Denar
2009-08-15, 10:51 PM
/wave! GO UPDATE! RAWR!

Anyway...

BEHOLD!!!!! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5140212&postcount=11)

Moderately optimized dagger throwing!

Could be better, could be worse. All in all, middle of the road as far as dishing out damage goes. Gets even better when you realize that you are adding all that extra damage to your party as well!

EDIT:
Returning doesn't really work out well for a thrower. Chances are, by the time you can afford the 8300g for a returning dagger, you have more throws than you have hands, and by the time you can afford a second, you have WAY more throws than you have hands. If all your weapons were returning, then you'd have issues with your weapons coming back to you. Since they appear in your hands, you won't be able to hold them all, and ones you can't hold fall at your feet. This is...not so good. The best thing to do would be to spend your cash on a Lesser Rod of Chaining, and hope your party wizard will donate a couple spell slots to GMWing a goodly number of weapon or taking levels in Bloodstorm Blade to get Ricochete Throw.

sofawall
2009-08-15, 11:07 PM
Aren't there gloves that make all weapons Throwing and Returning?

Also, are you perhaps interested in a ToB/Bard build, where you are able to do 192d6 on a full attack?

EDIT: Alternatively, if you wanted Lightning Ricochet, the damage would merely go down to 176d6.

EDIT2: And you only need two weapons.

Delandel
2009-08-15, 11:15 PM
/wave! GO UPDATE! RAWR!

Waiting for the barbarian to go charge off somewhere before I update. And plotting a horrible fate of the paladin's ride check of 1.


Buh? 192d6?? What's the damage like at around level 6-10 range? I'm greatly interested.

EDIT: Man, gotta read that ToB book someday.

Dacia Brabant
2009-08-15, 11:19 PM
But if you did go the Lightning Ricochet route and still managed to have an IL of 13 or better (I don't get why Bloodstorm Blade doesn't add to martial power progression), you can tack on up to an extra 14d6 on top of that with Finishing Move. Plus there's fun stuff like Dazing Strike and Disarming Strike that you'd get to use with Martial Throw.

sofawall
2009-08-15, 11:28 PM
The sad thing is, it uses BoED, Eberron, DMG2, Dragon Magic, probably a few others... Doesn't quite fit your book limit.

The key is optimizing Inspire Courage/Dragonfire Inspiration (I don't recall what it was at, maybe 16d6 per attack or something?) Let me do the math...

Yeah, 16d6 sonic, per attack. At 20 he does 12d4+192d6+192+12*cha.

At level 9 he's packing 12d6 sonic per attack, and he gets 6 of them.

I think. I never really fleshed him out, I just made a little note of his feats and levels. I do recall his abilities, though.

EDIT: Level 6 he's a pansy. His true power begins at level 9.

EDIT2: His IL classes are 1 level of Warblade and 4 Bloodstorm Blade. He has a free feat at 18th for martial study, if needed.

Keld Denar
2009-08-15, 11:40 PM
Flick at 6th level. Lesseee....

Bard3/Warblade3

Relevant gear: Badge of Valor (~2000g, MIC)
+2 gauntlets of dex (4000)

Feats are:
With Flaws.....
Dragonfire Inspiration
Song of the Heart
Song of the White Raven
PB Shot
Precise Shot
Rapid Shot

Assuming the 28 PB I gave, 18 dex with +2 gloves gives 21 with the 4th level bump, or +5 attack bonus
5 BAB + 5 Dex + 1 PB + 1 Racial + 1 Size = +13 to hit.
With Rapid Shot, thats 2 attacks at +11/+11, not bad for a level 6

Dragonfire Inspiration would be at +1 base, +1 Insp Boost, +1 Song of the Heart + 1 Badge of Valor = +4, or 4d6 fire

So, 2 attacks at 1d3 + 4d6 damage with +11 to hit. Not bad for a 6th level character. Needs 1 round to buff, and the +4d6 is shared by ALL allies
Against a target with AC20, thats a 55% chance to hit for ~15 damage a hit for ~16.5 damage per round. Against AC15 this goes up to ~ 24 damage per round. Not great, but thats without factoring the damage delt vicariously through your other party members!

Level 8 brings 2 more BAB and another +1d6 fire damage from DFI. Also, you can probably afford +4 gloves and another level point in dex, which gives us:
7 BAB + 7 dex + 1PB + 1 Racial + 1 Size = +17 to hit
With Rapid Shot, 3 attacks at +15/+15/+10

At ~19 damage per hit, against AC 20 you'll average 38 damage per round, and against AC 24 you'll still get 28.5 damage per round.

Level 9 brings in TWF and the 5th level Master Thrower trick that doubles your attacks per round.
Now you have:
8 BAB + 7 dex +1 PB + 1 Racial + 1 size = +18 to hit
With Rapid Shot and TWF:
+14/+14/+14/+14/+14/+14/+9/+9
which with the same ~19 per hit is 104.5 per round against AC20.

Granted, against a foe with Fire Resist 5, that number drops to 64.5 per round, and against a foe with Fire Resist 10, it drops even more to 24.5 per round. Sadly, there isn't much you can do about this unless you light a perfectly good level on fire by taking Sorc1 and taking Draconic Heritage (Battle, Pyroclastic, or Steel dragon) and subbing your fire for sonic damage. It lowers your damage, but makes you less resistable. The prereq for Draconic Heritage is stupid though, so you might be able to work with your DM...

EDIT:
The 16d6 is only really depending on where you multiply your static increases with Words. Does Words multiply the +1 you get from Song of the Heart? Does it multiple the +1 you'd get from a Masterwork Mandolin? Does it multiply the +1 you get AFTER you start singing when you activate a Badge of Valor? Or does it just multiply the base IC? Rules aren't really clear on this, but I'm guessing any DM looking at the total number of dice you can throw around is gonna read this as conservative as possible.

Honestly, I don't think Words of Creation is worth it. The 13 wisdom req is REALLY annoying with point buys, and being Exalted Good as a bard is....BLECH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is especially true if WoC doesn't multiply anything but the base bard song. There is now way I'd let some stupid feat impinge on my roleplaying just for an extra 14 damge per hit at level 20....

mcl01
2009-08-15, 11:56 PM
I'm not sure, but you might get another attack from Rapid Shot due to Palm Throw.

An item that might interest you:
Gauntlet of Unlimited Blades (6500gp, MIC 101). Basically infinite daggers you can use to throw that disappear after 3 rounds. 5 charges you can use per day to create special +3 daggers.

You may also want to try scout. If you pick up double toss from master thower, you can get 2x your skirmish damage every turn.

sofawall
2009-08-16, 12:07 AM
EDIT:
The 16d6 is only really depending on where you multiply your static increases with Words.

Agreed. I just like busting out the 192d6 bard.

EDIT: Vest of legends is really nice.

Keld Denar
2009-08-16, 12:16 AM
I'm not sure, but you might get another attack from Rapid Shot due to Palm Throw.

You may also want to try scout. If you pick up double toss from master thower, you can get 2x your skirmish damage every turn.
Counted his Rapid Shot doubling with Palm Throw already.

Also, Skirmish is precision damage. Palm Throw is explicitly a volley attack. Volley attacks never apply precision damage more than once per volley. So yea...not such a good idea unless you have Greater Multishot, but then you aren't really throwing daggers anymore.


EDIT: Vest of legends is really nice.

Agreed. Flick needs it to get his Bardsong up to level 20 because of the 5 levels of Master Thrower that don't contribute to music.

Oh, I guess its worth noting that according to the progression in the thread I linked, 9 is an awesome level, but so is 10. 10 gets Dancing Mongoose which can add another 4 attacks in every other round at not penalty to hit.

sofawall
2009-08-16, 12:29 AM
Tidesinger and I actually cooked up the bard I hinted at. We were trying to optimize Inspire Courage, then realized more attacks was way better than +1 courage, so in goes Master Thrower for a level.

Then Snowflake Wardance came up. Hello, Bloodstorm Blade, how's it hangin'?

Keld Denar
2009-08-16, 12:43 AM
The issue with SFWD is that its really intensive on Bardic Music attempts. Most Bardblade builds only have 3-4 levels of bard, which is generally enough IC uses to last for a day of 3-4 encounters/day. SFWD doubles this requirement, meaning that even with 4 levels, you'd need to take Extra Music at least once to be able to use all of your abilities in a 4-combat day. So...adding SFWD and Extra Music onto Song of the White Raven, Song of the Heart, PB Shot, Rapid Shot, TWF and all the other stuff you need and holy crap thats a ton of feats...even with flaws!

sofawall
2009-08-16, 12:47 AM
Slippers of Battledancing are another alternative.

Keld Denar
2009-08-16, 12:59 AM
True, although Slippers encourage movement, and unfortunately there is not Multishot for daggers. Thus, you'd need Travel Devotion or a lot of Chronocharms of the Horizon Walker or Quicksilver Motions or Sudden Leaps or any other form of swift action movement in order to activate your Slippers. More feat costs or other opportunity costs.

I'm not saying its bad, its just really hard to make a character who has enough resources to remain effective through more than 1-2 encounters per day, and we all know that average is more like double that. You have a TON of feats tied up in your tricks which can leave you rather vulnerable to other aspects, etc...

If you take out some of the resources you need to get the really REALLY big numbers, you increase your endurance, which IMO is more important. YMMV.

sofawall
2009-08-16, 01:01 AM
I'm used to 1-2 encounters per day, but with them being (generally) CR=ECL+2. It's just where I come from.

I can see him running out of steam in a long day, though.

However, as seen in this thread, the bigger number gets a better reaction.

mcl01
2009-08-16, 01:02 AM
Counted his Rapid Shot doubling with Palm Throw already.

Also, Skirmish is precision damage. Palm Throw is explicitly a volley attack. Volley attacks never apply precision damage more than once per volley. So yea...not such a good idea unless you have Greater Multishot, but then you aren't really throwing daggers anymore.
Oh, sorry. Misread the number of attacks.

Also, I understand that Palm Throw counts as a volley since they use the same attack roll. Doubletoss however lets her attack twice as a standard action. That's 2 separate attacks, doubling skirmish damage (what I said earlier).


True, although Slippers encourage movement, and unfortunately there is not Multishot for daggers. Thus, you'd need Travel Devotion or a lot of Chronocharms of the Horizon Walker or Quicksilver Motions or Sudden Leaps or any other form of swift action movement in order to activate your Slippers. More feat costs or other opportunity costs.
Slippers of Battledancing would work well with this skirmishing build too. A couple issues though.
If he moves at least 10 feet as part of
a move action, he can use his Charisma modifier instead
of his Strength or Dexterity modifier for attack rolls and
damage rolls with one-handed or light weapons
It specifically states you must move 10' as part of a move action. Furthermore, since it replaces the str/dex modifier instead of adding onto, It seems rather useless. Unless I'm mistaken, RAW, Palm Throw would negate the charisma bonus to damage as str-bonus to damage, and you're just increasing MAD.

PinkysBrain
2009-08-16, 01:11 AM
Returning weapons are a bit of a problem when your DM notices that all at once at the end of the turn you have a half dozen (with master thrower) weapons in your hand.

Dragonfire Inspiration both doesn't fit his book requirements and is a bit overpowered IMO.

sofawall
2009-08-16, 01:16 AM
4th level of Bloodstorm Blade reduces you dagger requirements to 1, or 2 with Palm Throw.


Also, most of my build doesn't fit.

Delandel
2009-08-16, 02:12 AM
Ya, it appears stuff like Dragonfire Inspiration is what this build would really need to be worthwhile. I knew I had to be tacking d6's to my attacks to make it tick. I initially was really excited trying to go for the rogue flavor with SAs, but then I learned that volley damage is lame. Inside the books I'm familiar with (and the books that I'd be able to use in games), I don't have options short of stumbling onto a high level dragon's treasure hoarde and buying the most expensive flaming / shocking / frost / etc daggers I can find.

I've also never really liked the bard concept personally. In the middle of the battlefield I strum out an inspiring tune to crush my opposition! Bleh.

Oh well, there will be other cool character ideas that pop into my head eventually.

sofawall
2009-08-16, 02:14 AM
Or, you know, be all Theoden and smite such a mighty blast upon your horn that it is split asunder. That's bardic, too.

Or War Drums.

Or Heroic Speeches.

PinkysBrain
2009-08-16, 02:14 AM
The sneak attack master thrower and the brutal throw master thrower both work okay ... but they are high level builds. The first has problem getting enough magic weapons (as I said, returning doesn't really work). The second can make use of Telekinetic Boomerang but that means that before level 10 your throwing sucks.

At low levels the only thrower build which works relatively well for you is the acid flask sneak attack thrower ...

Ideally you would simply pair up with a psion ... he could manifest telekinetic boomerang on your weapons at the beginning of combat and you would be set.

PS . Spell Compendium also opens up more possibilities ... Blood Wind is a funny spell.

Saph
2009-08-16, 03:16 AM
Aethernox came up with a pretty entertaining dagger throwing build for one of his Test of Spite entries. It used Soul Eater, Master Thrower, and Necrotic Focus weapons to deal around 15 negative levels a round. Again though, needs to be at least level 12 or so.

Seonor
2009-08-16, 03:44 AM
How unbalancing would it be to change returning so that instead of in your hand the dagger appears in a special sheath? It would obviosly be pricier than the normal one, but what would be reasonable?

Darrin
2009-08-16, 06:18 AM
Also, I understand that Palm Throw counts as a volley since they use the same attack roll. Doubletoss however lets her attack twice as a standard action. That's 2 separate attacks, doubling skirmish damage (what I said earlier).


By RAW, Spring Attack doesn't allow you to take a standard action, it specifies an "attack action". Nowhere in the description of Doubletoss is it described as an attack action.

mcl01
2009-08-16, 09:20 AM
Did I ever say you need to use Spring Attack? Sure, it helps a lot if you can use it, but there's always simply the Doubletoss then move option.

Also, you're thinking of Shot on the Run, not Spring Attack. Spring Attack is melee.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-08-16, 09:33 AM
How come no one's mentioned Dragonfire Bard with Whirling Blade?

Flickerdart
2009-08-16, 09:34 AM
Fly-By attack lets you specifically take a standard action. However, it's a minimum of LA+2 to get wings, as far as I recall (either Winged or Half-Fey templates).

Keld Denar
2009-08-16, 10:32 AM
Dragonborn can get wings, but IIRC, you have to burn a feat on Improved Flight.

And Whirling Blade + DFI is pretty good (essentially a fire based lightning bolt!), but it doesn't really work well with a dagger based bardblade due to the fact that you seldom have more than 4 bard levels, often only 3. 4 levels gives you 1 2nd level spell per day if your cha is high enough. Yea, its a neat trick, but you are probably better off just tossing daggers due to the fact that you can focus fire on one target and kill it, rather than damaging a few targets a little. Its better off in the hands of a caster style bard who keeps a weapon in his hand specifically to WB with after he's started his bard song and cast Haste as needed.

PinkysBrain
2009-08-16, 10:32 AM
How come no one's mentioned Dragonfire Bard with Whirling Blade?
Dragon Magic wasn't noted as an available book.

Cieyrin
2009-08-16, 10:32 AM
By RAW, Spring Attack doesn't allow you to take a standard action, it specifies an "attack action". Nowhere in the description of Doubletoss is it described as an attack action.

Where did Spring Attack come into this conversation? That's not even applicable to a skirmishing ranged attacker in the slightest! It's more like Shot on the Run but that's not particularly great, either, since SotR probably has the same issues tacked on to it that Spring Attack does, leaving you with Flyby Attack and then finagling for a fly speed.

Darrin
2009-08-16, 11:52 AM
Where did Spring Attack come into this conversation? That's not even applicable to a skirmishing ranged attacker in the slightest! It's more like Shot on the Run but that's not particularly great, either, since SotR probably has the same issues tacked on to it that Spring Attack does, leaving you with Flyby Attack and then finagling for a fly speed.

I have absolutely no idea where my brain was. No one even mentioned Spring Attack, so I'm not sure how I thought it was relevant.

tonberrian
2009-08-16, 12:23 PM
Another, non-bard approach is Fighter 4/Warblade 3/Swordsage 4/Bloodstorm Blade 4/Master Thrower 5, not in that order, getting damage via sheer number of attacks combined with Swordsage's Discipline Focus (Insightful Strike) (Wis to damage on strikes of one discipline) and Shadow Blade (Dex to damage w/ Shadow Hand weapons in a Shadow Hand stance). There's also a Dragon Magazine (Dead Eye, Issue 304 and the Dragon Compendium), if you can access it and can swing it. Unfortunatly, you don't have the initiator level necessary for Time Stands Still, so you'll have to do with Flashing Sun. You also have the benefit from additional benefits if some else plays a bard with DFI.

The above build is somewhat flexible, trading out levels (2 Swordsage, 1 Warblade, switch 2 Fighter for 2 Bloodstorm Blade) for Swashbuckler 3 if you want Int to damage constantly that can't penetrate crit immunity instead of Wis on a strike (read, one full attack/encounter).

Level 6 looks like Fighter 2/Warblade 2/Swordsage 1/Bloodstorm 1 so you can get Shadow Blade at 6. With the Swashbuckler, it's Swash 1/Fighter 2/Warblade 1/Swordsage 1/Bloodstorm 1. Neither of these are really good at throwing yet, but are at least decent at melee (moreso the latter).

Feats to look at: Shadow Blade/ TWF (and improvements), Power Throw (if you have a decent Strength), Staggering Critical, Ambush Feats (your stance of choice should be Assassin's Stance (2d6 Sneak Attack, NOT Su)), Far Shot, and Rapid Shot.

Fitz10019
2009-08-16, 07:10 PM
...there's always simply the Doubletoss then move option.

I *think* you're talking about the skirmish build. The Complete Adventurer errata clarifies that the Scout's movement must occur before the attack. So, yes, you have the option to Doubletoss then move, but that won't include skirmish damage.