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imp_fireball
2009-08-16, 04:09 PM
Would Thief (ninja version) from 8-bit theater ever stand a chance against a 20th level wizard?

Here's Thief's stats

Thief
Medium Humanoid (elf), Rogue 13
13d6 (45 hp)
Speed 30 ft. (6 squares), Climb 30ft. (6 squares)
Init: +6
AC 18; touch 16; flat-footed 12 (+6 DEX, +2 Armor)
BAB +9/+4; Grp +9
Standard attack Masterwork Dagger +10 (1d4 piercing, 20/x2)
Full-Attack Masterwork Dagger +10/+8/+8/+5
Space 5 ft.; Reach 5 ft.
Special Attacks Awesome Throw
Special Qualities Uber Steal, Time Shift, Ninja-ing, Improved Evasion, Skill Mastery (Sleight of Hand, Bluff, Forgery, Climb, Tumble, Search, Move Silently)
Saves Fort +4 Ref +14 Will +6
Abilities Str 10, Dex 23, Con 10, Int 18, Wis 14, Cha 15
Skills Diplomacy +18, Bluff +18, Climb +24, Sleight of Hand +25, Move Silently +22, Hide +22, Open Lock +22, Search +20, Forgery +22, Sense Motive +18, Tumble +30, Use: Magic Device +18
Feats Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Combat Expertise, Improved Feint, Skill Focus (Sleight of Hand)
Environment Overworld
Organization Alone, or with The Light Warriors (Black Mage, Red Mage, Fighter)
Challenge Rating 14
Treasure Anything Carried
Alignment CN with Evil Tendencies
Advancement by Character Class
Level Adjustment +0

Uber Steal

Thief can steal anything that isn't bolted down or on fire. This includes people, souls and ethereal beings.

Time Shift

A number of times per day equal to Thief's HD as a move action, Thief can jump forward or backwards in time 1d20 hours, either to steal or observe. Quite often, he chooses not to share any information he learns from this experience with others.

Alternatively, Thief can use this ability to dimension door any distance at will.

Awesome Throw

Thief can throw anything he successfully grapples up to a distance of 10ft./level and without any range increment induced associated penalties, as part of a standard action. The same applies to anything else he throws, such as objects or weapons that aren't bolted down and/or on fire. Enemy's making opposed grapple checks against Thief no longer apply their strength or size bonus to the check (essentially, only BAB can be used to resist a grapple now); flatfooted opponents no longer apply BAB either. The throw itself magically generates immense force, explaining why Thief can grapple in this way.

Ninja-ing

Thief, having been bestowed the characteristics of a ninja through his bestowed 'upgrade', now has a +8 miscellaneous bonus to tumble checks. In addition to acquiring a climb speed and the ability to tumble up sheer surfaces, he can jump a second time without the need of a surface (effectively, once in mid air) as if performing a regular jump. This jump is treated as if he were jumping from a surface, and thus he can effectively eliminate falling damage by jumping just prior to landing as part of a readied action.

The 20th level wizard can have anything you want for a wizard of that level. Essentially, participants can create a wizard using the existing RAW rules that's 20th level and test Thief against it.

If necessary, we can also play test this.
-----

With that outta the way, this is my presumption of how the conflict would go from Thief's perspective. (I don't actually know enough about wizards to conduct it from the wizard's side).

Round 1: Thief wins initiative, and dimension doors adjacent to the wizard. He then throws the wizard in a random direction that may be lethal.

Round 2: If it doesn't end, Thief might either rinse and repeat this process, or try to steal some magical affect from the wizard, or possibly even go back in time to foil something deadly the wizard had prepared for him (or to a period he hopes is when the wizard is more vulnerable). Since its round 2, the wizard will now have time to ready something.

Round 3: Confrontation will probably be over by this round.

So, presumptions?

Yukitsu
2009-08-16, 04:13 PM
He does this http://www.nuklearpower.com/2009/08/11/episode-1161-change-of-plan/

And only because the wizard is being nice enough not to make his history explode.

imp_fireball
2009-08-16, 04:17 PM
Yah but that was a much higher level wizard that could create custom spells and cast them simultaneously as a free action. :smallamused:

Jade_Tarem
2009-08-16, 04:24 PM
Would Thief (ninja version) from 8-bit theater ever stand a chance against a 20th level wizard?

Here's Thief's stats

Thief
Medium Humanoid (elf), Rogue 13
13d6 (45 hp)
Speed 30 ft. (6 squares), Climb 30ft. (6 squares)
Init: +6
AC 18; touch 16; flat-footed 12 (+6 DEX, +2 Armor)
BAB +9/+4; Grp +9
Standard attack Masterwork Dagger +10 (1d4 piercing, 20/x2)
Full-Attack Masterwork Dagger +10/+8/+8/+5
Space 5 ft.; Reach 5 ft.
Special Attacks Awesome Throw
Special Qualities Uber Steal, Time Shift, Ninja-ing, Improved Evasion, Skill Mastery (Sleight of Hand, Bluff, Forgery, Climb, Tumble, Search, Move Silently)
Saves Fort +4 Ref +14 Will +6
Abilities Str 10, Dex 23, Con 10, Int 18, Wis 14, Cha 15
Skills Diplomacy +18, Bluff +18, Climb +24, Sleight of Hand +25, Move Silently +22, Hide +22, Open Lock +22, Search +20, Forgery +22, Sense Motive +18, Tumble +30, Use: Magic Device +18
Feats Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Combat Expertise, Improved Feint, Skill Focus (Sleight of Hand)
Environment Overworld
Organization Alone, or with The Light Warriors (Black Mage, Red Mage, Fighter)
Challenge Rating 14
Treasure Anything Carried
Alignment CN with Evil Tendencies
Advancement by Character Class
Level Adjustment +0

Uber Steal

Thief can steal anything that isn't bolted down or on fire. This includes people, souls and ethereal beings.

Time Shift

A number of times per day equal to Thief's HD as a move action, Thief can jump forward or backwards in time 1d20 hours, either to steal or observe. Quite often, he chooses not to share any information he learns from this experience with others.

Alternatively, Thief can use this ability to dimension door any distance at will.

Awesome Throw

Thief can throw anything he successfully grapples up to a distance of 10ft./level and without any range increment induced associated penalties, as part of a standard action. The same applies to anything else he throws, such as objects or weapons. Enemy's making opposed grapple checks against Thief no longer apply their strength or size bonus to the check (essentially, only BAB can be used to resist a grapple now); flatfooted opponents no longer apply BAB either. The throw itself magically generates immense force, explaining why Thief can grapple in this way.

Ninja-ing

Thief, having been bestowed the characteristics of a ninja through his bestowed 'upgrade', now has a +8 miscellaneous bonus to tumble checks. In addition to acquiring a climb speed and the ability to tumble up sheer surfaces, he can jump a second time without the need of a surface (effectively, once in mid air) as if performing a regular jump. This jump is treated as if he were jumping from a surface, and thus he can effectively eliminate falling damage by jumping just prior to landing as part of a readied action.

The 20th level wizard can have anything you want for a wizard of that level. Essentially, participants can create a wizard using the existing RAW rules that's 20th level and test Thief against it.

If necessary, we can also play test this.
-----

With that outta the way, this is my presumption of how the conflict would go from Thief's perspective. (I don't actually know enough about wizards to conduct it from the wizard's side).

Round 1: Thief wins initiative, and dimension doors adjacent to the wizard. He then throws the wizard in a random direction that may be lethal.

Round 2: If it doesn't end, Thief might either rinse and repeat this process, or try to steal some magical affect from the wizard. Since its round 2, the wizard will now have time to ready something.

Round 3: Confrontation will probably be over by this round.

So, presumptions?


A level 20 DnD wizard has more in common with Sarda than Black Mage or Red Mage. I don't think Thief is even going to win initiative, let alone the confrontation. Most of Thief's superpowers are used for comedic effect, and ultimately even dimension doors and time travel aren't enough to let a level 13 rogue/ninja overcome a level 20 wizard.

For the sake of argument, the confrontation goes something like this:

1. Wizard detects Thief coming with Foresight. He uses his Celerity spell to win initiative, and then his free standard action to cast a maximized Time Stop with his metamagic rod.

2. Wizard establishes several amusing buff spells. For the record, he already has the Foresight, Overland Flight, Contingency, Greater Mage Armor, and Superior Invisibility Spells he cast this morning active, in addition to having a permanent Arcane Sight and Prismatic Sphere effect going. He adds to this, oh, I don't know, Fire Shield, Shapechange, Mindblank, Stoneskin, Freedom of Movement, True Strike and a few others of your choice. Then he readies an action to Dimensional Anchor Thief the moment the Time Stop ends.

3. Wizard exits Time Stop. Thief (very probably) gets Dimensionally Anchored.

4. Round 1 begins. Thief attempts to pull some of his "whoopa ju jitsu" teleporting and finds that he can't travel through space or time like he used to. Alternatively, Thief attempts to throw wizard and finds out that he can't touch the wizard - either he attacks and is rebuffed by a Contingent Dimension Door (Or Abrupt Jaunt - our wizard could be a conjurer), or he gets vaporized by the Prismatic Sphere, or he attempts to grapple and is stopped by Freedom of Movement. No matter what, the turn is wasted.

5. Wizard uses Forcecage on Thief. Thief, as you have statted him, has no means to escape while Dimensionally anchored.

6. Wizard Cloudkills Thief repeatedly. Thief dies, and there is virutally nothing he can do about it.

Yukitsu
2009-08-16, 04:27 PM
I was going to go with the simple "celerity+power word kill" combo, but that would be a bit metagamy.

Milskidasith
2009-08-16, 04:27 PM
There's uhh.... literally no way Thief could win. A level 20 wizard has abilities that are far stronger than any of the ones you listed for Thief and also can know what he is going to do before it happens.

Signmaker
2009-08-16, 04:28 PM
6. Wizard Cloudkills Thief repeatedly. Thief dies, and there is virutally nothing he can do about it.

Thief steals clean air to replace cloudkill.

Milskidasith
2009-08-16, 04:29 PM
You light the air on fire.

Or just Power Word: Kill him, and he goes down in one round.

Berserk Monk
2009-08-16, 04:30 PM
Thief's a character from a video game RPG. He can surpass level twenty before you're even a quarter done the game and he takes on monsters 10 times more powerful than anything in the Epic Level handbook.

Kurald Galain
2009-08-16, 04:32 PM
Of course, Thief would start by stealing initiative, then stealing the wizard's spellcasting ability.


...then he gets an Australia to the face...

Jade_Tarem
2009-08-16, 04:34 PM
Thief steals clean air to replace cloudkill.

And then the wizard uses Power Word Kill. Or better yet, the Wizard uses Wish first to take away Thief's uber-steal ability, then Cloudkills. As Milskidasith pointed out, it's pretty much mathematically impossible for Thief to win.

If the wizard is feeling really creative, he banishes Thief back to his home universe.

Milskidasith
2009-08-16, 04:35 PM
Thief's a character from a video game RPG. He can surpass level twenty before you're even a quarter done the game and he takes on monsters 10 times more powerful than anything in the Epic Level handbook.

Uhh... no. In Final Fantasy level 40-50 is around the time you start being able to kill the elite troops of the empire... which are maybe level 10 in D&D. Nothing in Final Fantasy besides *maybe* the end/bonus bosses could ever be considered epic.

ex cathedra
2009-08-16, 04:35 PM
Thief wins. Steal initiative, time stop, the wizard's brain, etc.

Keld Denar
2009-08-16, 04:38 PM
Assuming you do ACTUALLY manage to reduce the wizard to -10 HP or in some other way kill him, his body vaporizes into a cloud of smoke which snakes around to form a little muchroom guy saying:


WE'RE SORRY, BUT THE WIZARD YOU SLAYED IS PROJECTING FROM ANOTHER PLANE.

And yea...never mind the fact that you can't do anything after a Dim Door...

Jade_Tarem
2009-08-16, 04:38 PM
Thief wins. Steal initiative, time stop, the wizard's brain, etc.

See, this is why mix-and-match genre vs. things don't work. Thief's uber-steal ability, used like this, is essentially plot armor. I'm just going to counter by saying that the wizard is actually a very young Sarda, and Thief can't beat him because he doesn't.

Milskidasith
2009-08-16, 04:39 PM
A level 20 wizard essentially is Sarda anyway.

Yukitsu
2009-08-16, 04:39 PM
Thief wins. Steal initiative, time stop, the wizard's brain, etc.

Can't use steal off initiative to gain initiative. So the celerity/power word wizard still kills him no save, no rolling.

Signmaker
2009-08-16, 04:42 PM
Can't use steal off initiative to gain initiative. So the celerity/power word wizard still kills him no save, no rolling.

And if thief steals the requisite hit points/immunity to death effect?

Milskidasith
2009-08-16, 04:43 PM
So we're basically just arguing "If the thief gets to have plot armor he can beat a mage who doesn't?"

Why not just argue that a level 1 commoner can kill any epic wizard, then? Besides, as already mentioned, Wish could take away the Theif's theft ability, plot armor or no

Not to mention the fact that, if we are using D&D rules, the Thief still can't steal anything when it isn't his turn.

Yukitsu
2009-08-16, 04:44 PM
And if thief steals the requisite hit points/immunity to death effect?

Can't steal those off initiative either. :smalltongue:

Milskidasith
2009-08-16, 04:45 PM
Here's another idea: A wizard just shapeshifts into Thief, then steals his ability to steal anything and still has spellcasting.

imp_fireball
2009-08-16, 05:02 PM
A level 20 DnD wizard has more in common with Sarda than Black Mage or Red Mage. I don't think Thief is even going to win initiative, let alone the confrontation. Most of Thief's superpowers are used for comedic effect, and ultimately even dimension doors and time travel aren't enough to let a level 13 rogue/ninja overcome a level 20 wizard.

For the sake of argument, the confrontation goes something like this:

1. Wizard detects Thief coming with Foresight. He uses his Celerity spell to win initiative, and then his free standard action to cast a maximized Time Stop with his metamagic rod.

2. Wizard establishes several amusing buff spells. For the record, he already has the Foresight, Overland Flight, Contingency, Greater Mage Armor, and Superior Invisibility Spells he cast this morning active, in addition to having a permanent Arcane Sight and Prismatic Sphere effect going. He adds to this, oh, I don't know, Fire Shield, Shapechange, Mindblank, Stoneskin, Freedom of Movement, True Strike and a few others of your choice. Then he readies an action to Dimensional Anchor Thief the moment the Time Stop ends.

3. Wizard exits Time Stop. Thief (very probably) gets Dimensionally Anchored.

4. Round 1 begins. Thief attempts to pull some of his "whoopa ju jitsu" teleporting and finds that he can't travel through space or time like he used to. Alternatively, Thief attempts to throw wizard and finds out that he can't touch the wizard - either he attacks and is rebuffed by a Contingent Dimension Door (Or Abrupt Jaunt - our wizard could be a conjurer), or he gets vaporized by the Prismatic Sphere, or he attempts to grapple and is stopped by Freedom of Movement. No matter what, the turn is wasted.

5. Wizard uses Forcecage on Thief. Thief, as you have statted him, has no means to escape while Dimensionally anchored.

6. Wizard Cloudkills Thief repeatedly. Thief dies, and there is virutally nothing he can do about it.

3. One problem with that. Prior to the encounter, the wizard wouldn't have line of sight or effect with thief. He'd know thief was coming but he couldn't actually dimensionally anchor (considering he's casting timestop at round 0). Dimension anchor is a ranged touch attack I thought.

It's also basically what the wizard is riding on to stop thief, initially.

4. If Thief realizes he can do nothing (which the person playing thief might realize, or thief realizes, being a witty intelligent elf), he might choose to travel back in time continuously until he arrives at a period where he can do something. Although the time travel is random, so this would be sort of a last resort on Thief's part.

Thief could also steal magical affects that aren't bolted down or on fire, so the wizard might lose one important buff (if steal is a move action). Or he might even steal away his dimensional anchor, although that's sort of GM fiat, I imagine.

Also, he could steal spells. Thief at one point explained that he could steal arrows before they hit him, although my stats didn't include that.


Here's another idea: A wizard just shapeshifts into Thief, then steals his ability to steal anything and still has spellcasting.

Is shapeshift really that universal? Damn. :smalltongue:

Milskidasith
2009-08-16, 05:10 PM
3. One problem with that. Prior to the encounter, the wizard wouldn't have line of sight or effect with thief. He'd know thief was coming but he couldn't actually dimensionally anchor (considering he's casting timestop at round 0). Dimension anchor is a ranged touch attack I thought.

It's also basically what the wizard is riding on to stop thief, initially.

4. If Thief realizes he can do nothing (which the person playing thief might realize, or thief realizes, being a witty intelligent elf), he might choose to travel back in time continuously until he arrives at a period where he can do something. Although the time travel is random, so this would be sort of a last resort on Thief's part.

Thief could also steal magical affects that aren't bolted down or on fire, so the wizard might lose one important buff (if steal is a move action). Or he might even steal away his dimensional anchor, although that's sort of GM fiat, I imagine.

Also, he could steal spells. Thief at one point explained that he could steal arrows before they hit him, although my stats didn't include that.



Is shapeshift really that universal? Damn. :smalltongue:

Dimensional anchor prevents time travel, so he couldn't use it to escape his forcecage and dimensional anchor. Thief literally cannot beat any wizard that has a clue what he is doing, because the wizard can have all of his abilities and more, including knowing everything thief will do, the best course of action to stop Thief, the ability to have controlled time travel, the ability to have all of Thieves abilities, the ability to be faster than Thief, the ability to remove all of Thieves abilities... it goes on and on.

Quietus
2009-08-16, 05:22 PM
Dimensional anchor prevents time travel, so he couldn't use it to escape his forcecage and dimensional anchor. Thief literally cannot beat any wizard that has a clue what he is doing, because the wizard can have all of his abilities and more, including knowing everything thief will do, the best course of action to stop Thief, the ability to have controlled time travel, the ability to have all of Thieves abilities, the ability to be faster than Thief, the ability to remove all of Thieves abilities... it goes on and on.

How does the wizard know what Thief can do? How does DimAnch stop time travel? That's like saying it stops someone from physically MOVING... wait.. Ah, just EXTRAdimensional travel. That is, to other planes. If Thief is only moving to this plane, but a different time, DimAnch does nothing.

As for turning INTO thief.. he can't. Shapeshift can't turn you into unique individuals, only an individual of that race. So he could turn into a witty elf, but he COULDN'T turn into a plot-armored, time-travelling Thief.

Really, all this comes down to whether or not you're treating the Wizard like Sarda (remember, Sarda creates epic spells on the spot like nothing), and if you're using all the comedic aspects available to 8-bit theatre Thief. If the Wizard is Sarda, thief loses. If not, and Thief gets his comedic to-the-limit stealing ability, he can simply steal initiative (How? Bah, it doesn't matter, he just did it!), then steal the Wizard's spellcasting power/bag-o-bat-poop/contingency focus/soul.

So really, it comes down to whoever has better plot armor, wins. Anyone surprised?

Milskidasith
2009-08-16, 05:28 PM
How does the wizard know what Thief can do?

Foresight, Divination, etc.


So really, it comes down to whoever has better plot armor, wins. Anyone surprised?

By the way Thief is written up here, he could easily be killed by a generic, non Sarda wizard.

sofawall
2009-08-16, 05:30 PM
Wizard has Mindsight, so he knows where thief is. Dimensional Anchor. Forcecage. Done. Game Over.

EDIT: And if neither have plot armour at all, Wizard still wins. Wizards can make plot armour, it's called Shapechange/Celerity/Time Stop.

Myshlaevsky
2009-08-16, 05:40 PM
Foresight, Divination, etc.



By the way Thief is written up here, he could easily be killed by a generic, non Sarda wizard.

No, because Thief can steal anything.

You said:


"If the thief gets to have plot armor he can beat a mage who doesn't?"

And now you're going against that. Wish can't replicate a unique individual so if the Wizard is a normal Wizard and Thief has his plot-armoury 'Steal Freedom', 'Steal Life', 'Steal Victory' then he wins. And Uber Steal is part of the way he is written up here.

Milskidasith
2009-08-16, 05:42 PM
However, stealing never specifies what type of action it is, so it defaults to a standard action... wizards always win initiative, and can kill him before he gets to act.

EDIT: Also, when I said "if he gets to have plot armor" I meant that they were giving him plot armor against how it was written up right there. They were allowing him to steal anything as a free action, which isn't how it's written.

Jade_Tarem
2009-08-16, 05:44 PM
How does the wizard know what Thief can do? How does DimAnch stop time travel? That's like saying it stops someone from physically MOVING... wait.. Ah, just EXTRAdimensional travel. That is, to other planes. If Thief is only moving to this plane, but a different time, DimAnch does nothing.

And according to DnD rules, Time Travel in excess of six seconds is impossible, and it's something that you have to set up in the future to go to the past, while you're in the present. (Don't look at me like that, it's true).


As for turning INTO thief.. he can't. Shapeshift can't turn you into unique individuals, only an individual of that race. So he could turn into a witty elf, but he COULDN'T turn into a plot-armored, time-travelling Thief.

And Thief can't steal "anything." Trust me, if you're supporting Thief you don't want our contestants to be limited to what's RAW legal.


Really, all this comes down to whether or not you're treating the Wizard like Sarda (remember, Sarda creates epic spells on the spot like nothing), and if you're using all the comedic aspects available to 8-bit theatre Thief. If the Wizard is Sarda, thief loses. If not, and Thief gets his comedic to-the-limit stealing ability, he can simply steal initiative (How? Bah, it doesn't matter, he just did it!), then steal the Wizard's spellcasting power/bag-o-bat-poop/contingency focus/soul.

So really, it comes down to whoever has better plot armor, wins. Anyone surprised?

No, especially since this point was made earlier in the thread. Twice. What this really comes down to is people giving Thief powers in excess of his statblock, the advantage of surprise, total knowledge of everything that the wizard can do that he couldn't possibly have, and abilities from outside DnD that even gods don't have (essentially making Thief a beyond-epic character, not level 13), while simultaneously limiting the wizard to the strictest RAW interpretations available and generic facelessness - something that I call "The Sir Giacomo Gambit" after that thread about monks.

As an alternative solution, the Wizard learns of Thief's approach, plane shifts to Bytopia, levels up, and spends some time researching the transplanar "Kill Thief" spell. He then employs it. Game Over.


No, because Thief can steal anything.

No, wait, you're right. Thief is absolutely invincible and this contest is meaningless. I see it now.

Logical excercise: Thief, as described here, is God.

Not a DnD god, God, the Almighty.

Think about it. All he has to do is steal God's power. Then he uses infinite power to gain infinite wisdom/knowledge/etc, and in doing so becomes God.

It doesn't even matter whether you believe in God or not - if he exists, hey, great. If he doesn't, well, Thief can steal things that don't exist, so it's still good.

So what we're really getting at, here, is that Thief is greater than Sarda, God, whatever, and there's nothing and no one that can beat him.

This should, I think, end the thread - not to mention Eight Bit Theater.

Myshlaevsky
2009-08-16, 05:48 PM
"The Sir Giacomo Gambit"

This I liked. A lot. That thread was legendary and deserves rememberance.


However, stealing never specifies what type of action it is, so it defaults to a standard action... wizards always win initiative, and can kill him before he gets to act.

EDIT: Also, when I said "if he gets to have plot armor" I meant that they were giving him plot armor against how it was written up right there. They were allowing him to steal anything as a free action, which isn't how it's written.

Fair enough. I doubt it can ever be resolved which character will pre-empt the other and so see little point to further discussion.

Edit: This possibly came over as a little offensive. Adjusted.

Milskidasith
2009-08-16, 05:50 PM
Fair enough. I just think the discussion of the topic is pretty stupid because it can never be resolved which character will pre-empt the other.

Actually, it can easily be resolved. The Wizard has the ability to use any of his numerous spells to preempt the Thief (Foresight, for example, would say "ready an action to cast Power Word Kill on the Elven Thief/Ninja guy), while Thief has nothing besides a limited (and apparently random, but it's not written that way in the statbook) ability to time travel to find out about the Wizard.

Berserk Monk
2009-08-16, 05:51 PM
Uhh... no. In Final Fantasy level 40-50 is around the time you start being able to kill the elite troops of the empire... which are maybe level 10 in D&D. Nothing in Final Fantasy besides *maybe* the end/bonus bosses could ever be considered epic.

PCs and monsters get a crap load more HP and deal a crap load more damage in a video game RPG. Even a hardcore caster in an RPG will have more hit points than a table top tank at the same level.

Myshlaevsky
2009-08-16, 05:52 PM
Actually, it can easily be resolved. The Wizard has the ability to use any of his numerous spells to preempt the Thief (Foresight, for example, would say "ready an action to cast Power Word Kill on the Elven Thief/Ninja guy), while Thief has nothing besides a limited (and apparently random, but it's not written that way in the statbook) ability to time travel to find out about the Wizard.

Yes, but Thief, as written, could have the ability to "be God" as Jade Tarem points out. That open-ended Uber Steal stuff cannot be argued down to a specific limit.

Milskidasith
2009-08-16, 05:53 PM
PCs and monsters get a crap load more HP and deal a crap load more damage in a video game RPG. Even a hardcore caster in an RPG will have more hit points than a table top tank at the same level.

And in D&D status causing effects actually matter, and since FF characters don't have save scores or hit dice you can kill an infinite number of them with sleep. The point is, when you start saying stuff like "Well it's easy for a FF character to do over 1000 damage and they have Int 99 and more HP than an epic level tank" that's not proving they are better, it's proving FF is guilty of pretty huge number inflation (plus it's possible enough to do more damage in D&D anyway).

You can't just compare two systems by saying "this one has bigger numbers so they win."

sofawall
2009-08-16, 06:01 PM
As said above, D&D may not win for health (almost 600 is what I got to at ECL 20) but in damage, D&D wins, hardcore.

Besides, Incantrix-Metamagic-Enervate can still destroy a FF character in 2 rounds, tops.

Myrmex
2009-08-16, 07:23 PM
A level 20 DnD wizard has more in common with Sarda than Black Mage or Red Mage. I don't think Thief is even going to win initiative, let alone the confrontation. Most of Thief's superpowers are used for comedic effect, and ultimately even dimension doors and time travel aren't enough to let a level 13 rogue/ninja overcome a level 20 wizard.

For the sake of argument, the confrontation goes something like this:

1. Wizard detects Thief coming with Foresight. He uses his Celerity spell to win initiative, and then his free standard action to cast a maximized Time Stop with his metamagic rod.

2. Wizard establishes several amusing buff spells. For the record, he already has the Foresight, Overland Flight, Contingency, Greater Mage Armor, and Superior Invisibility Spells he cast this morning active, in addition to having a permanent Arcane Sight and Prismatic Sphere effect going. He adds to this, oh, I don't know, Fire Shield, Shapechange, Mindblank, Stoneskin, Freedom of Movement, True Strike and a few others of your choice. Then he readies an action to Dimensional Anchor Thief the moment the Time Stop ends.

3. Wizard exits Time Stop. Thief (very probably) gets Dimensionally Anchored.

4. Round 1 begins. Thief attempts to pull some of his "whoopa ju jitsu" teleporting and finds that he can't travel through space or time like he used to. Alternatively, Thief attempts to throw wizard and finds out that he can't touch the wizard - either he attacks and is rebuffed by a Contingent Dimension Door (Or Abrupt Jaunt - our wizard could be a conjurer), or he gets vaporized by the Prismatic Sphere, or he attempts to grapple and is stopped by Freedom of Movement. No matter what, the turn is wasted.

5. Wizard uses Forcecage on Thief. Thief, as you have statted him, has no means to escape while Dimensionally anchored.

6. Wizard Cloudkills Thief repeatedly. Thief dies, and there is virutally nothing he can do about it.

You can't forcecage and then cloudkill. It's cloudkill then forcecage. And remember, 13 times per day, thief can get out of anything by moving 1d20 hours into the past or present.

McBish
2009-08-16, 07:26 PM
Thief steals Wizard's Magic. Thief wins.

Milskidasith
2009-08-16, 07:32 PM
Thief steals Wizard's Magic. Thief wins.

I'd like you to read the rest of the thread... based on the statted out Thief we have here, he'd get killed trying. Since it's not stated, his theft can be assumed to be a standard action... which means the Wizard is going to win initiative and kill him. His best bet is just to become God.

Myrmex
2009-08-16, 08:01 PM
I'd like you to read the rest of the thread... based on the statted out Thief we have here, he'd get killed trying. Since it's not stated, his theft can be assumed to be a standard action... which means the Wizard is going to win initiative and kill him. His best bet is just to become God.

You can steal things as a free action with a -20 check. Look at the rules for sleight of hand.

Yukitsu
2009-08-16, 08:04 PM
I'd like you to read the rest of the thread... based on the statted out Thief we have here, he'd get killed trying. Since it's not stated, his theft can be assumed to be a standard action... which means the Wizard is going to win initiative and kill him. His best bet is just to become God.

All of them are full casters +. :smallconfused:

Myshlaevsky
2009-08-16, 08:06 PM
All of them are full casters +. :smallconfused:

He can steal things that don't actually exist. He could just steal 'Unconditional Immortality' and 'Infinite Arcane Power' beforehand. Even if he loses in a direct confrontation as statted, the Uber Steal ability is so open-ended as to be an "I win" button.

Yukitsu
2009-08-16, 08:07 PM
He can steal things that don't actually exist. He could just steal 'Unconditional Immortality' and 'Infinite Arcane Power' beforehand. Even if he loses in a direct confrontation as statted, the Uber Steal ability is so open-ended as to be an "I win" button.

I mean gods can act prior to him stealing their abilities, and do the exact same thing as the wizard, before he can act.

Just because the ability is poorly written, doesn't mean it can actually work on gods without him simply getting killed for the audacity of trying.

Myshlaevsky
2009-08-16, 08:09 PM
I mean gods can act prior to him stealing their abilities, and do the exact same thing as the wizard, before he can act.

Just because the ability is poorly written, doesn't mean it can actually work on gods without him simply getting killed for the audacity of trying.

Yeah, I got that. He doesn't have to take anything from a god, he can just take it out of nowhere.

Yukitsu
2009-08-16, 08:12 PM
Yeah, I got that. He doesn't have to take anything from a god, he can just take it out of nowhere.

According to most people, non-things cannot fall under the perview of anything (because they aren't anything), so he can't manage stealing non-things with qualities from nothing.

Milskidasith
2009-08-16, 08:14 PM
According to most people, non-things cannot fall under the perview of anything, so he can't manage stealing non-things with qualities from nothing.

That's how his ability is written and how it works in the comic. Unconditional immortality is a thing, so it falls under anything without anybody else needing to actually have it.

Yukitsu
2009-08-16, 08:15 PM
That's how his ability is written and how it works in the comic. Unconditional immortality is a thing, so it falls under anything without anybody else needing to actually have it.

People do have it though. It's a thing that overdieties possess, so he would have to steal it from them.

Milskidasith
2009-08-16, 08:49 PM
Not by the way the skill is listed. He can steal anything. It never says he has to steal it from somebody, and by RAI thief can steal things that don't exist in his source material, so he can steal stuff from thin air.

Yukitsu
2009-08-16, 08:55 PM
Not by the way the skill is listed. He can steal anything. It never says he has to steal it from somebody, and by RAI thief can steal things that don't exist in his source material, so he can steal stuff from thin air.

No, things that don't exist are not "things." even if there is the concept of them, which is a thing.

It's like this. There is the concept of Avalon, and that concept is rationally a thing. However, that doesn't mean there is an Avalon, which is a non-thing. Since Avalon itself isn't a thing, but the concept of Avalon is a thing, thief can steal the concept of Avalon, but cannot attain Avalong itself in the process, because Avalon, unlike its concept is not a thing. True immortality, likewise, cannot be stolen, though the concept, which is not the thing itself, can be.

Any more complex, and I'd have to dig out my old notes on ontology, which I'm too lazy to do right now. :smalltongue:

Myshlaevsky
2009-08-16, 08:58 PM
No, things that don't exist are not "things." even if there is the concept of them, which is a thing.

It's like this. There is the concept of Avalon, and that concept is rationally a thing. However, that doesn't mean there is an Avalon, which is a non-thing. Since Avalon itself isn't a thing, but the concept of Avalon is a thing, thief can steal the concept of Avalon, but cannot attain Avalong itself in the process, because Avalon, unlike its concept is not a thing. True immortality, likewise, cannot be stolen, though the concept, which is not the thing itself, can be.

Any more complex, and I'd have to dig out my old notes on ontology, which I'm too lazy to do right now. :smalltongue:

No, he can steal things which don't exist. There's nothing about stealing things which only exist conceptually.

Milskidasith
2009-08-16, 08:59 PM
No, things that don't exist are not "things." even if there is the concept of them, which is a thing.

It's like this. There is the concept of Avalon, and that concept is rationally a thing. However, that doesn't mean there is an Avalon, which is a non-thing. Since Avalon itself isn't a thing, but the concept of Avalon is a thing, thief can steal the concept of Avalon, but cannot attain Avalong itself in the process, because Avalon, unlike its concept is not a thing. True immortality, likewise, cannot be stolen, though the concept, which is not the thing itself, can be.

Any more complex, and I'd have to dig out my old notes on ontology, which I'm too lazy to do right now. :smalltongue:

I'd like to point out this is based on a webcomic where all of the main characters can explicitly break the very laws of the universe. His ability isn't constrained by things that not exist not technically being things.

Yukitsu
2009-08-16, 09:03 PM
I'd like to point out this is based on a webcomic where all of the main characters can explicitly break the very laws of the universe. His ability isn't constrained by things that not exist not technically being things.

I do read it. He has never demonstrated such abilities, hence why he flees vs. Sarda, who is no better than a level 20 wizard. Many of the truly illogical statements made by thief tend towards making something up, then enforcing it with ninja lawyer elves. I believe those also failed vs. Sarda though.

Now if it were red mage, I think "non-things not being things" not stopping him probably would be true.

Doc Roc
2009-08-16, 09:34 PM
I'll run a wizard against your thief without looking. Let me know when you are ready, and I'll make a thread. ToS rules okay?

Milskidasith
2009-08-16, 09:35 PM
I'll run a wizard against your thief without looking. Let me know when you are ready, and I'll make a thread. ToS rules okay?

I'd like to point out this "Thief" actually has the extraordinary ability to steal everything, forever. It isn't a normal rogue.

Jade_Tarem
2009-08-16, 09:43 PM
I do read it. He has never demonstrated such abilities, hence why he flees vs. Sarda, who is no better than a level 20 wizard. Many of the truly illogical statements made by thief tend towards making something up, then enforcing it with ninja lawyer elves. I believe those also failed vs. Sarda though.

Now if it were red mage, I think "non-things not being things" not stopping him probably would be true.

I don't remember where, but at one point he does actually steal something that doesn't exist.

Also, Sarda is most definitely better than a level 20 wizard. His powers are darn near infinite, even in excess of what a lvl 20 wizard can cast. You could think of it as him spamming wish without an xp cost. Heck, he even re-writes the dialogue of the characters at certain points, and he invents a spell and casts it as a free action - a very specific spell.


"So it turns out that when Sarda casts a spell that hurts you, and you copy it, you cast a spell that hurts you."

Yukitsu
2009-08-16, 09:48 PM
I don't remember where, but at one point he does actually steal something that doesn't exist.

Also, Sarda is most definitely better than a level 20 wizard. At one point he invents a spell and casts it as a free action - a very specific spell.

I'm not exactly convinced that a level 20 wizard can't manage the above. It would take a wish, but I do believe a celerity time stop shenanigan moment would cut it.

Spells should arguably be allowed to fall under the same rules as item creation, and "hurt black mage" as a spell is a lower level version of that crippling pain spell from BoED.

Doc Roc
2009-08-16, 09:56 PM
I'd like to point out this "Thief" actually has the extraordinary ability to steal everything, forever. It isn't a normal rogue.

He won't ever get an initiative cycle. Hell, he may not get born.

Mostly, I sit still, and stay quiet. But my 'fu is pretty strong. It will be fun to stretch. I must ask that Thief not steal the Sky\Oxygen\Match-Itself\GitP-Forums\Etc, at least not prior to the match.

Jade_Tarem
2009-08-16, 09:59 PM
I'm not exactly convinced that a level 20 wizard can't manage the above. It would take a wish, but I do believe a celerity time stop shenanigan moment would cut it.

Spells should arguably be allowed to fall under the same rules as item creation, and "hurt black mage" as a spell is a lower level version of that crippling pain spell from BoED.

But can a level 20 wizard do this? (http://www.nuklearpower.com/2009/07/21/episode-1154-epilepsy-warning-no-seriously/) (No epileptics!)

Yeah, that's what I thought. :smalltongue:

Doc Roc
2009-08-16, 10:05 PM
Yep, sure can.

Inflicting infinite taint scores on your opponents is hilarious.

Jade_Tarem
2009-08-16, 10:13 PM
It looked more like a phantasmal killer to me. :smallsmile:

Doc Roc
2009-08-16, 10:16 PM
Funny thing about timestop, there's time for boooottthhhh.....

Myrmex
2009-08-16, 10:18 PM
Yep, sure can.

Inflicting infinite taint scores on your opponents is hilarious.

Stealing anything that isn't bolted down or on fire as a free action is hilariouser.

Doc Roc
2009-08-16, 10:30 PM
I disagree, because see, when you start doing that randomly because you've consumed a non-finite quantity of cosmic horror.....

Steal the stars that are not right! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ut82TDjciSg)

What I'm saying is that I give vile feats. You know why.

Doc Roc
2009-08-17, 02:29 AM
Cleric 1/Wizard 7/Tainted Scholar 2/Dweomerkeeper 10
Flaw: non-combatant
Flaw: Inattentive

Okay, my preparations go like this:

I planar bind, greater an Elemental Weird.

Let's say an Earth Weird. She uses her free action divinations as many times as needed to find out pretty much how my day is going to go. Oh look, I'm getting attacked by Thief. Neat. Let's find out more about him. I use the infinite number of divinations accessible to me to find out everything he can do, and when he was born. Then I use supernatural spell to cast Teleport Through Time. I use Glibness to convince everyone I'm a healer, deliver the baby, apply necrotic cyst, and then cast necrotic tumor.

I return to the present, cast sending to tell Thief to swing by my place for pizza, and begin singing "Everybody dance now" when he arrives.

Thief dances.


I also dance. But not very much.

Cost:
Zilch
Spells used:
1 8th, 2 9th, 1 2nd, 1 7th. 1 Limited wish or scroll of glibness. Possibly another two ninths for mindrapings.

Kurald Galain
2009-08-17, 05:57 AM
Stealing anything that isn't bolted down or on fire as a free action is hilariouser.
I just realized that the obvious solution is for the wizard to set himself on fire (and also, set his initiative on fire, set his spellcasting ability on fire, and set his fire on fire for good measure; come on, he's a wizard for crying out loud).

This has the added advantage that Thief's summoned law-ninjas will be unable to grab him.

Myrmex
2009-08-17, 06:07 AM
I just realized that the obvious solution is for the wizard to set himself on fire (and also, set his initiative on fire, set his spellcasting ability on fire, and set his fire on fire for good measure; come on, he's a wizard for crying out loud).

This has the added advantage that Thief's summoned law-ninjas will be unable to grab him.

Too bad the wizard banned evocation....

Myou
2009-08-17, 06:30 AM
I havn't read the whole thread, so maybe this has been said, but if Thief could steal anything he would have stolen Sarda's powers, which are neither bolted down, nor on fire.

Q.E.D.

Kurald Galain
2009-08-17, 06:44 AM
Too bad the wizard banned evocation....

Too good that you can also set stuff on fire using conjuration or illusion magic... :smalltongue:

Cyclocone
2009-08-17, 06:47 AM
The wizard still has transmutation, giving him Balor Nimbus.
Be a Spellguard of Silverymoon to cast it on others, like, say, Bob and Bill (you know those guys, right? Bob, your initiative and Bill, your spellcasting?? What, you don't?:smallfrown:).

Anyway, transmutation also gives the wizard Remove Trait, so he can simply turn the tables on Theif and steal his stealing.

Comet
2009-08-17, 06:55 AM
"Ninjas can't catch you if you're on fire"
This thread is rather silly. Sorry for not really contributing.

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-08-17, 07:49 AM
0)
The wizard casts celerity as an immediate action to thief's appearance.

1) The wizard timestops, then teleports through time into the future, discerns the location of the most useful object of that time, teleports himself to said location, steals the object, returns to his time and readies action to use it as the thief does anything.

2)
http://img2.allposters.com/images/PTGPOD/235644-FB.jpg

3)
Profit.

Zen Master
2009-08-17, 08:52 AM
First off ... this is an impossible match. The two are not comparable on any level, any assumptions made are total fabrications - and thus, any given result will be as the invidual wants it to be.

Me included, naturally.

So ... here's how I'd guess the confrontation would end up - in 8-bit Theater.

The wizard is a fully geared, statted and buffed D'n'D wizard. Confidently strolling along, sure of victory.

Thief is Thief. Thief cheats. First, he steals all knowledge from the wizards mind - past, present and future. Then he calmly walks up to him, steals any defensive buffs and effortlessly ganks him. Done.

Now, in D'n'D it would go like this: Wizard wins. Done.

But really - my point is that Thief has, and should have, Plot Armor. Sarda may defeat Thief. But really, we all know he wont.

Not even Sarda.

Yukitsu
2009-08-17, 01:35 PM
But can a level 20 wizard do this? (http://www.nuklearpower.com/2009/07/21/episode-1154-epilepsy-warning-no-seriously/) (No epileptics!)

Yeah, that's what I thought. :smalltongue:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/confusion.htm :smallconfused:

That one isn't even a challenge.

It succesfully hit all four of them, and confusion is a burst effect, it didn't kill anyone, even though they all failed their saves, and the effects varied by person, from sitting around crying and babbling, to running away, to doing nothing.

AstralFire
2009-08-17, 01:48 PM
This thread demonstrates very well why you can't have versus fights from fantasy universes unless one character is clearly overpowering the other; authors do not write trying to appease or match very specific, set rules when writing character abilities; they write what works for the story.

Thief clearly has a major limitation, at least:
You're in a Webcomic About Losers (Ex): None of your abilities can ever be used to permanently improve your situation when it matters, unless it's by mistake.

Doc Roc
2009-08-17, 01:53 PM
Thief clearly has a major limitation, at least:
You're in a Webcomic About Losers (Ex): None of your abilities can ever be used to permanently improve your situation when it matters, unless it's by mistake.

+1 cookie.

chiasaur11
2009-08-17, 02:22 PM
Can't use steal off initiative to gain initiative. So the celerity/power word wizard still kills him no save, no rolling.

Yeah, stealing initiative using the stolen initiative is more Red Mage's territory.

imp_fireball
2009-08-17, 04:41 PM
That's how his ability is written and how it works in the comic. Unconditional immortality is a thing, so it falls under anything without anybody else needing to actually have it.

And then fighter's head explodes trying to restring that sentence another way. And BM is finally happy.

imp_fireball
2009-08-17, 04:52 PM
ToS rules okay?

What's ToS again?

woodenbandman
2009-08-17, 05:00 PM
Thief uses all 13 uses of his time jump to jump back 13d20 hours. He then rests, and repeats this, until he reaches the spot in time where the wizard is born. He then kills the wizard's father, steals his identity, and raises the wizard as his own.

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-08-17, 05:15 PM
LOL
The wizard has already done that with his Teleport through time.


BTW, that's exactly why when characters have open-ended abilities, no preparation before the fight should be allowed. If they have time to prepare they can both do anything and the fight is meaningless.

Yukitsu
2009-08-17, 06:25 PM
Yeah, stealing initiative using the stolen initiative is more Red Mage's territory.

Technically, red mage would use animal husbandry somehow, rather than theft.