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Cieyrin
2009-08-16, 07:50 PM
I'm looking at the Primeval PRC and I'm wondering how the Regression ability interacts with the minimum Intelligence of 3. If I had a character with an Intelligence of 3 get to 8th level in Primeval, would he permanently be in a coma or, probably more relevant, would he lose his ability to speak and work on an animal level before that when the first Regression happens at 2nd level of Primeval?

HCL
2009-08-16, 07:54 PM
As a primeval gains levels, he begins to physically regress into a more primal, feral version of himself. At 2nd level, the primeval reduces his Intelligence and Charisma scores by 1 point (to a minimum of 3) and gains 1 point of Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, and Wisdom.

To a minimum of three

tyckspoon
2009-08-16, 07:58 PM
Recommend not playing an Int 3 character (ideally, a PC should not have a base stat lower than about 6 in any attribute- any lower represents near-crippled deficiencies, regardless of what the book says about whether or not it's 'playable.) If you really do it, however, then you have the right idea about what happens- the character regresses to animalistic level. Handle Animal becomes at least as appropriate a skill to interact with him as Diplomacy (more, if he's dropped to Int 1, which is not-very-smart-animal level.) At this point he is less a character than a well-trained attack animal, which is at least somewhat appropriate for that particular PrC.

Practically speaking, the character will probably just be given a Widget of Intelligence +whatever in order to let him keep his Intelligence.

Edit: Above written without reference to the actual class and apparently doesn't actually apply to the Primeval. May still be useful for reference to how to deal with other Int-damaging effects.

TheCountAlucard
2009-08-16, 08:14 PM
Just had a thought; what if you're playing a dwarf with a Charisma of 1 and you take levels in this PRC? Would that raise his Charisma up to 3, since the text specifies a minimum of 3?

I guess it's sort of like the drown-healing thing, eh?

HCL
2009-08-16, 08:18 PM
Just had a thought; what if you're playing a dwarf with a Charisma of 1 and you take levels in this PRC? Would that raise his Charisma up to 3, since the text specifies a minimum of 3?

I guess it's sort of like the drown-healing thing, eh?

You can't have a charisma of 1 unless its somehow magically reduced.

tyckspoon
2009-08-16, 08:22 PM
You can't have a charisma of 1 unless its somehow magically reduced.

Only Intelligence has the protection that it can't be less than 3; everything else *can* go to 1, it's just a horribly bad idea and requires either ludicrously bad luck (standard 3.5 generation rules should not allow it, as getting a 3 almost guarantees you qualify for a re-roll) or being allowed to sell back point buy stats. Or using a race with a non-standard design that has huge mental penalties.

HCL
2009-08-16, 08:27 PM
Only Intelligence has the protection that it can't be less than 3; everything else *can* go to 1, it's just a horribly bad idea and requires either ludicrously bad luck (standard 3.5 generation rules should not allow it, as getting a 3 almost guarantees you qualify for a re-roll) or being allowed to sell back point buy stats. Or using a race with a non-standard design that has huge mental penalties.

actually it would appear so

weird

Cieyrin
2009-08-16, 09:09 PM
I had bad luck and my other stats were too awesome to otherwise warrant a reroll. He's been a fun character to play, anyways, even if the other PC's take advantage of his mental failings (though they keep forgetting that he does have at least a decent Wisdom, so he's dumb, not clueless). Good deal, thanks for the help.

Cieyrin
2009-08-16, 10:38 PM
I suppose the other question I have is whether Primeval Wild Shape would be worth taking with Primeval?

erikun
2009-08-17, 12:34 AM
A character with 2 CHA who takes levels in Primeval does not lower their charisma. "...to a minimum of 3" means that you would only lower the score if your charisma was above 3. If it is 3 or below, it would not get lower.

The Primeval Wild Shape feat only affects your Wild Shape abiltiy. Primeval Form (the ability gained with the Primeval PrC) is not Wild Shape, and so none of the Wild Shape feats would have any effect when using Primeval Form.

Cieyrin
2009-08-17, 09:17 AM
The Primeval Wild Shape feat only affects your Wild Shape abiltiy. Primeval Form (the ability gained with the Primeval PrC) is not Wild Shape, and so none of the Wild Shape feats would have any effect when using Primeval Form.

Not true, as Primeval Form specifically states it works like Wild Shape, just a very limited one. If one looks at the Warshaper PRC's requirement, they elude to that similar abilities to Wild Shape would also count as Wild Shape and list Bear Warrior as another example of having a Wild Shape-like ability, thus qualifying them for Wild feats. Granted, given their limited uses per day, many of them aren't that useful to the Primeval or Bear Warrior but Primeval Wild Shape is one of the few that directly affects the form w/o costing extra uses, which those 2 PRCs couldn't really do much with. It just cuts time of transformation, instead, from whatever larger unit of time to rounds per level.

So anyways, would using Primeval Wild Shape be worth the +2 Str, +2 NA and Cold Resist 10 for time reduction? I'm not sure that it is, though I'd need to crunch some numbers on applicable critters. I suppose more openly, is Primeval Wild Shape worth acquiring for a normal druid, if we're to have a difference of agreement of whether a Primeval or Bear Warrior could use their class ability to qualify to gain it?

Eldariel
2009-08-17, 09:30 AM
No, it's usually not; the good thing about Wildshape is that it lasts all day. Small bonuses for losing the duration is just not worth it. For a Primeval though, if you don't lose any more duration (that is, it becomes 1 round/level), it could work out given that Primeval's primeval form is a combat ability anyways.

The problem is though, the bonuses are quite mediocre. You get +2 Str, which is nice, but it's only +2. You get some Natural Armor, which is meh. Then you get some Cold Resistance which is just blah (it's not even useful against environment due to the very limited duration of the ability).


It's not a horrible option, but I can't see you not having enough good feats to pick to take it at some point. Besides, how the hell do you turn into a primeval form of a creature that's already prehistoric?

Cieyrin
2009-08-17, 02:06 PM
Primeval Form lasts 1 minute per class level, so not long lasting like a druid's Wild Shape. But yeah, I see your point about Primeval Wild Shape, as it's just gravy compared to the rest of what I get already.

ALSO:

Besides, how the hell do you turn into a primeval form of a creature that's already prehistoric?

Yeah, you got me on that, too. I have no idea. Go any further back and suddenly the only forms available are all aquatic. <_<;;

erikun
2009-08-17, 05:55 PM
Fear the mighty lungfishshark! RAWR!! D=<

Taking another look at the Primeval class features, I'm seeing lines like "...functions similarly to the druid's wild shape ability..." and "...functions like the polymorph spell..." Combined with the fact that most Wild Shape feats don't ever make sense with the Primeval - such as Tiny Wild Shape, Plant Wild Shape, or Draconic Wild Shape - I'm guessing that the Primeval Form wasn't intended to work with the Wild Shape feats.

Besides, the Polar Bear Primeval Form is giving you STR +22, and that's before raging as a barbarian. And really, your Half-Giant Barbarian 10/Primeval 10 wielding an oversized Greataxe will already have 62 STR. :smalltongue:

((That said, as a DM, if you really wanted to mix Draconic Wild Shape with the Primeval class for some kind of prehistoric dragonform, I'd probably work with you on it. But no, no Primeval Primeval Form Primevals.))

Cieyrin
2009-08-18, 12:28 PM
Not sure polar bear would meet the primeval ancient animal requirement (i think dire polar bear has too many hit dice, too...) and also not sure how said Primeval bear form would be wielding an oversized axe, given he loses Powerful Build while in bear form and also the lack of opposable thumbs to even hold the axe.

And yes, I agree that most Wild feats aren't useful to Primevals and Bear Warriors, my point was just that they technically could use their ability to qualify. Primeval Wild Shape is one of the few that does work with it, though, as Eldariel as already pointed out, it's not that great a feat in and of itself. Primeval's Feral Power feature takes care of the niche that feat would have, anyways, so it's a moot point, at least for me.

Eldariel
2009-08-18, 02:29 PM
Polar Bear could qualify, but that depends on the DM. Dire animals mostly have too much HD, so it's usually down to Dinosaurs or the few decent Dires for me if DM doesn't "ok" prehistoric versions of standard animals without extra HD (luckily Fleshraker isn't bad).

I'd like to point out that Dire Boar is actually legal and has the same Str modifier as Brown/Polar Bear, but IMHO Boars just aren't as cool as Bears (see, that one letter DOES make a difference!). Also, Boars only have one natural attack. Dire Lion is actually better due to having more natural attacks in spite of giving up 2 points of Str again. Also, Giant Octopus rocks (though you gotta play aquatic for it).

Cieyrin
2009-08-18, 08:23 PM
Polar Bear could qualify, but that depends on the DM. Dire animals mostly have too much HD, so it's usually down to Dinosaurs or the few decent Dires for me if DM doesn't "ok" prehistoric versions of standard animals without extra HD (luckily Fleshraker isn't bad).

I'd like to point out that Dire Boar is actually legal and has the same Str modifier as Brown/Polar Bear, but IMHO Boars just aren't as cool as Bears (see, that one letter DOES make a difference!). Also, Boars only have one natural attack. Dire Lion is actually better due to having more natural attacks in spite of giving up 2 points of Str again. Also, Giant Octopus rocks (though you gotta play aquatic for it).

Boar gives reduced Diehard, which can be good, depending on the character. Megaloceros, the Great Snow Elk, is kind of interesting for the Grab and Toss tactic, though it's a niche, since it only works on smaller critters. If you're in a humanoid heavy game, that could be gold but otherwise meh. Dire Ape does pretty good damage though it lacks Pounce like the Lion. The Rend and Reach are still pretty good, I think, which none of the other options have, at least of the ones I've looked at. Plus you could use a weapon with the Ape, too, which isn't bad, either.