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mrmaxmrmax
2009-08-17, 01:15 AM
I am going to run a tournament for Dungeons and Dragons at my store on the 5th of September. What I've announced is that there will be prizes for the best team as well as the best role (controller, defender, leader, striker). The best team is simple: the group that meets the dungeon goal first wins. What I don't have completely figured out is how to judge the best role.

Strikers seem the easiest to judge. Simple damage output is my leading option right now. Other options include the difference of damage in and damage out (judging on a striker's ability to get away, as well) and damage per round (which probably just adds a step).

Leaders contribute through buffs and healing, but what do I give as points? Total buffs? Damage assists (if the enemy is hit because I cause feared it into an OA, for example)? HP healed (no contest if there is only one Cleric around)?

Defenders are a little easier; I have the ratio of damage taken to total team damage written down, but this might be too complicated.

Controllers also seem easy; one point for every enemy past the first one hit, or one point for every status effect inflicted, or one point for every square an enemy is forced to move.

To make a long request short, I would like your input on how you might best judge these roles for a tournament setting. Thank you for your time.

Maxwell.

Milskidasith
2009-08-17, 01:27 AM
A contest for builds isn't going to work well in a test setting, especially when you judge things you can't finitely define. In 3.5, it would be a lot easier, if only because with splatbooks you could create a guy that had over a million attacks per round (seriously), Pun Pun, a Cleric that cast at caster level 110 (at level 20), etc.

For 4e, I'd just have it be "which party beats the dungeon in the shortest amount of time." You can't define the "best buffer" or anything, especially considering your calculations might favor doing something that isn't necessarily optimal but gets them more "buffer" points (for example, expending all their buffs as soon as possible because they get points per ally buffed, and it doesn't really matter if they survive or not because that gets them far less buff points than actually having cast all of them.)

Also, make sure the dungeon is straightforward. I don't mean have no traps or anything, but don't have two branching hallways where one gets you to the finish and another gets you to a dead end, or a treasure chest filled with loot that's irrelevant. If you have to have loot, make sure it is stuff that is universal and easily usable right then and there. And don't add in anything that tests player, not character, knowledge (riddles).

maniakmastah
2009-08-17, 01:46 AM
Hey Maxwell, you could also award points on who's the most creative with their roles, as well as points for inventing creative ways to beat the enemy and finish the dungeon. Just going in and steamrolling your way through may work for some, but sometimes you gotta give credit to those who find inventive ways to get around or through an enemies' defenses. That's just my input though. Take care.

Gralamin
2009-08-17, 02:47 AM
I am going to run a tournament for Dungeons and Dragons at my store on the 5th of September. What I've announced is that there will be prizes for the best team as well as the best role (controller, defender, leader, striker). The best team is simple: the group that meets the dungeon goal first wins. What I don't have completely figured out is how to judge the best role.

[quote]Strikers seem the easiest to judge. Simple damage output is my leading option right now. Other options include the difference of damage in and damage out (judging on a striker's ability to get away, as well) and damage per round (which probably just adds a step).
Damage in/out is a good comparison. Do keep in mind that Striker/Controllers (Monk, Warlocks and Sorcerers) also have a lot of area of effects, and you'll have to sort out how that all works.

A possible way that is defiantly not optimal (You need Yakk for that :smallwink:), and involves a lot of tracking:
Keep records of Damage in, damage out, Rounds it takes to Kill them and Waste Damage (Ignore Waste on a crit unless the build is based around critting, Also ignore for Minions).
Then, for each enemy, follow the formula:
DamageEnemy = (Damage out - Waste Damage) * Enemy Worth (1/4 for Minions, 1 for standard, 2 for elites, 5 for solos) / Rounds To Kill

DamageTotal = DamageEnemy1 + DamageEnemy2 + ... + DamageEnemyN

Points = DamageTotal - DamageIn.

This is horrendiously complicated, but boils down to:
Striker attacks enemy with 25 HP for 30 damage in a round. (30 - 5) * 1 / 1 = 25.
He then attacks an identical enemy for 12 damage, and then 13 damage the next round. (25-0)*1/2 = 12.5
He then attacks an Elite (50 HP) and crits! Taking it down in one hit with 75 damage. (75 - 0) * 2 / 1 = 150
Total Damage = 150+25+12.5 = 187.5
During the encounter he takes 50 damage total.
187.5 - 50 = 137.5 total score


Leaders contribute through buffs and healing, but what do I give as points? Total buffs? Damage assists (if the enemy is hit because I cause feared it into an OA, for example)? HP healed (no contest if there is only one Cleric around)?
Leaders role varies greatly depending on party makeup, but thats also what makes this simple. Leaders in the winning group automatically get extra points. Leaders are otherwise judged by how much of an effect in battle they have, how much they help turn it around, etc. Its just a matter of careful observation. Don't even decide on point amounts necessarily, just watch and write down "Leader 1, Battle 3, Great help" and such and turn those into points at the end.


Defenders are a little easier; I have the ratio of damage taken to total team damage written down, but this might be too complicated.
That works, but it favors certain types of Defenders, and ignores effects. I recommend keeping track of actions lost as well.


Controllers also seem easy; one point for every enemy past the first one hit, or one point for every status effect inflicted, or one point for every square an enemy is forced to move.
This seems like a good base, but consider adjusting status effects for roles. If its ongoing damage, don't change it. But slowing a Solo is equivalent to slowing 5 creatures, etc.

tcrudisi
2009-08-17, 04:23 AM
...What I don't have completely figured out is how to judge the best role. ... To make a long request short, I would like your input on how you might best judge these roles for a tournament setting. Maxwell.

Well, for starters, just how many groups do you expect to show up? And how many judges will be there? I wil start by pointing out the problems, then offer up my suggestions.

Problem 1: Not enough "judges". You would need a DM per table plus a judge per table to keep track of everything. Possibly more. Why more? Because the players will want to move as quickly as possible in order to complete the event first.

Problem 2: This penalizes creativity. Group 1 manages to use diplomacy, bluff, or stealth to get past an encounter. Time taken? 2 minutes. Group 2 fights their way through it. Time taken? 30 minutes. Does this mean the striker in group 2 was better for killing 2 of the 5 monsters? Or was the striker in group 1 who created the diversion that allowed his party to bypass all the monsters better? According to your rules, the one that actually killed 2 monsters is better, though I think many (not all, I'm not putting words in anyones mouth) would argue against that.

Problem 3: Even WotC can't define each role exactly. How do you really compare a Rogue to a Sorceror? You can't (and they are both strikers), at least not with numbers. I play a Sorceror, and in overall damage I make the Rogue look weak. I do a lot of AoE damage though, targetting 2 or more creatures with every attack. He focus-fires and does a lot better damage against one target than I do. It's not a fair comparison. We both know our strengths and we play to it. More on this point: What the hell does a Controller do? Status effects or AoE damage? I argue status effects, though most people play them as AoE damage.

Problem 4: Your wizard casts Sleep on the dragon ... and it works. Who do you credit all the coup de graces to? Do you give the Wizard credit for all that damage, or do you give it to the Barbarian that just crit for 55 damage + getting a free melee basic attack?

I'm not trying to be cynical, but I don't think you can objectively compare this. Instead, I think it must be subjective. I would have someone go around to each table and take notes. Who's doing what? How well is each role dominating the encounter by playing well? Perhaps have the DM for each table nominate the best player or two ... and why they stood out. From there you can make a comparison. If nobody nominates a Controller? Well, then you don't have a winner for that category. If several Controllers do get nominated? Have each DM explain why they think the Controller they ran should win. From there, an "overall judge" can make a decision.

And ... try this one on. Maybe after everyone has finished, you invite those that were "nominated" back next weekend (or just have it be a long day, or whatever). Throw them all into a group together. You now have a group or two of the "best". How they react in the second adventure determines who wins. Yeah, this way you might be crowning, "best overall player", but you can also make it fun for everyone. To be honest, I would mix all the "leftover" players and this way people get to play with new people. This way they also get to continue on with adventure 2. More fun for all!

Or just do away with it. After all, 4e is all about teamwork. Really, individual play can greatly help a team, but one player cannot do it all. I would just award the "best team". If your criteria for "best" is the team that finishes first? All the easier.