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oxinabox
2009-08-17, 08:56 AM
Wow,
My (the player's) PC's (in a game i DM).
In Sigil, tghey started by dopplinganging harmonium, and having them fire at mercykillers, and then did the reverse.
until about two dozen harmonium were fighting a dozen mercykillers were.

some Dao EDIT Dabus walk through:
"There will be peace, the Ladies Peace upon the city"
the PC's screw with the wording (using illusions), and change it too thigns like "There will be War, the Ladies War upon the City"
And "There will Be One, and only the One" (a reference to the way the lady said there would be only 15 factions, and also the the faction The One."

The Lady appears.
Banishes the fighting Harmonium and Mercykillers.
but not before word of what's happened has spread though the city.
the PC's hightail it out of there (they were off hiding in a side alley).

By nightfall there was wides scale rioting.
and the Anarcist are parading through the city.
The Lady has be seen everywhere - the most active she's been in the city in years. banishing huge numbers of rioters to the Mazes.
I'm guessing by next Dawn over an eight of the population will be in the mazes.

How Awesome are my players! :smallcool:

Strawman
2009-08-17, 09:01 AM
Depends on whether or not they use the chaos to assume control of everyone. But either way, pretty awesome.

Yora
2009-08-17, 09:26 AM
If I were them, I'd leave the city and never come back.
I think the Lady is more than capable to find out who started the whole thing. :smallamused:

oxinabox
2009-08-17, 09:56 AM
If I were them, I'd leave the city and never come back.
I think the Lady is more than capable to find out who started the whole thing. :smallamused:

yep,:smallbiggrin:
but right now she's to busy putting down the rioters.
Though then again she never saw the PC's and everyone else saw only saw a variety of people (doppleganger), and all of them have been Mazed.

They're strongly considering running.
City of Glass is lookiung safe right now.
Heck the negitive energy plane looks safe now

bosssmiley
2009-08-17, 10:00 AM
Have the players' actions either:

threatened the cosmic neutrality of Sigil, as opposed to its political status quo? or
threatened the LoP's rule of Sigil? or
harmed the Dabus?

If they haven't managed either of the above then the LoP really won't care what the mortals do. She has no more interest in petty rioting and faction fights than you would if two ant nests in your garden decided to fight it out. Sure, people might get mazed during the chaos, but there will probably be little - if any - perceptible rhyme or reason as to who or why. That's just how she rolls. :smallconfused:

This won't be the first time the power structure has torn itself apart (cf: the dead Factions or The Guilds that IIRC ran Sigil before the Factions arose). Let the Factions fight it out, let the dice fall where they may, and expect to see the Dabus back at work cleaning up the mess when it's all over.

Your party being the catalyst though: Good job! That's proper Planescape right there. :smallcool:

Isak
2009-08-17, 10:05 AM
If I were them, I'd leave the city and never come back.
I think the Lady is more than capable to find out who started the whole thing. :smallamused:

Indeed she is.

The Lady probably already has them in a maze and they don't even know it... Yet. :smalltongue:

At least, from everything I've seen and read; that's how it's supposed to work for anyone who even tries to cause any chaos of that level... never mind actually succeeding to do so.

hamlet
2009-08-17, 10:06 AM
When the Lady catches them - and she will - their punishment will be excruciating.

Your PC's should be in store for some very bad things in the near future. Not to mention the fact that when their actions come out to public knowledge, pretty much everybody in the city is going to be after them. They'll have no hiding place, except maybe with the Xaositechts (sp?), and even the anarchs will probably be a bit miffed about the whole thing.

My recommendation? The next thing your players find should be the Dao painting up notices all over the city with the PC's descriptions, names, and crimes and declaring a public manhunt to aprehend them citywide and even multi-verse wide. Though the Lady's power extends to the boundaries of the Cage, the same cannot be said for the Mercykillers, Harmonium, or any of the others who will come looking for these guys.

oxinabox
2009-08-17, 08:21 PM
The Lady (in my setting) doesn't care what mortals do.
With the exception of open large scale fighing on thbe steets.
The Lady won't have War in her Plane.

She is perfectly happy to maze the whole city, more will come.

There is only one person (other than the Dabus and the Lady) who has a real solid chance (without using a powerful scrying ritual).
is a Harmoinum Investigate that was eyeing them off (who they then followed to the Ladies ward, before starting this all of)
And I know he escaped.
so soon he'll be investigating.
and the Harmoinum will know.
and the Mercykillers, and the guvnors will know.
and then they'll burn.
if the Lady doesn't get them first.

How long in game should they have to escape the plane i wonder?
Probably once hte rioting has gone down to a simmer.

BenTheJester
2009-08-17, 08:48 PM
I'd say forever.

The Lady isn't forgiving.


....Unless she is in your setting :smallconfused:

oxinabox
2009-08-17, 09:10 PM
I mean how long before she maze them.
How long they have to erscape sigil.
I'ld say until the riots die down then maybe 12 hours.
and then she puts them in a maze.

Kylarra
2009-08-17, 09:16 PM
the lady is a plot device, they have exactly as long as you want them to have.

Haven
2009-08-17, 10:15 PM
I don't think the Lady would have been fooled by anything as simple as a doppleganger's disguise. I'm not even sure she'd be able to be "distracted". But of course the whole point of the Lady is that she's different for everyone.

But either way I think it boils down to this: If she cares enough to maze the rioters, she should also be mazing the PCs; if the PCs haven't been mazed, she shouldn't be mazing the rioters.

So personally I think the PCs "should" be mazed; however, I put "should" in quotes because from the way you describe it, it sounds like both the PCs and (just as importantly) you are enjoying the way it's going. So don't feel like you need to. I'd suggest the main repercussions come from the Harmonium and the Mercykillers, and the Lady doesn't go after them because of her "mysterious ways."

But they should probably be made to leave the city, because that feels like the appropriate thing to do. So have them run as far as they can and have a quirky squad of Mercykillers and Harmonium officers (accompanied by a Guvner, maybe) who are chasing them across the planes, and whom they barely escape or beat in battle each time (or who they just kill, and keep getting more and more squads of increasing power and size sent after them)--this sounds like the sort of crazy thing your players would love. Give the squad members personalities and quirks, too--maybe have one Harmonium who's unnerved by his Mercykiller comrade who is just weird.

And on the flipside, the Doomguard and maybe the Anarchists will actually probably be big fans of them--not willing to stick their necks out too far, but maybe willing to let them stay in one of their Citadels if the PCs'll do a few...favors for them. Of course, the PCs still have to survive the trip there first...

oxinabox
2009-08-18, 01:42 AM
the lady is a plot device, they have exactly as long as you want them to have.

YEah, I know I was musing.


The lady wasn't fooled by the doppelgangers disguise, she never saw them.
they were hiding, in an alleyway the whole time.
the lady can't see thorugh walls (well she can i guess.)

She might have caught a glimps.

I agree they'll proable have to vacate plane.
unless the rioting dies down quickly - which i doubt, the anarcists are having a ball.
even if by this time next week (ie after my next game) there will be almost no anarcists left.

If they are caught and mazed that could be awesome fun too.
I'll cut planescapes maze rule where everyone gets a differnent maze.
to some extent - most people go to idividual mazes, but the Lady has a special maze, where she'll put them together. after all hell is other people.

And there'll be others there, people who are decended from the last people sent to the maze:
You know humanity It'll live anywhere.

and It'll be like the maze that the Sartan put the Patryns in.
A test, to encourage them into a life of good and honor, but gone wrong.
with one 12 Gates. i think.

And there will be subtle clues that this wasnt always a prison maybe, or that it wasn't always one of the ladies mazes...

Currently party is in a maquaid ball (with rioters outside) wich is also being attened by all the factors.

Kylarra
2009-08-18, 02:00 AM
Keep in mind that divinations at the Lady's level of power should be child's play, so if we're talking a disruption to the point where she's forced to intervene, they should've vacated the plane as soon as they suspected she would take action.

Eldan
2009-08-18, 04:08 AM
The problem here isn't necessarily that they screwed with the factions: they screwed with the Dabus. I'm assuming that changing a decree of the lady, related through the Dabus would be a major offense.

So, maze.

oxinabox
2009-08-18, 07:54 AM
The problem here isn't necessarily that they screwed with the factions: they screwed with the Dabus. I'm assuming that changing a decree of the lady, related through the Dabus would be a major offense.

So, maze.

Exactly my thoughts.

Tiki Snakes
2009-08-18, 11:06 AM
The Lady is just a wee bit dues ex machina, at times.

If no-one has any reason to know the PC's did it, then there is no way that anyone should know they did it. If the Lady was paying attention to them at the time, or had any reason at all to be scrying on them, sure, maze time.

But really, it's not like she has any real goals or ambition, so why would she bother hunting them down? She's practically an automaton. It's not like she has divine senses, as she's specifically not a Goddess.

If the players really did manouvre events to the point that they really should have in all fairness got away with it, then the fair thing to do is allow them to appear to have. Of course, if any such npc's manage to figure out legitimately what just happened, then they suddenly become fair game.

In which case, with that in mind, it's still probably a good idea to slip away asap, so they don't give themselves away.

Here's a thought - The Lady doesn't and didn't at any point stop to ask what's even going on, right? She just pops up and starts mazing people. It's not like you can reason with her. So it really doesn't even sound like much of an evidence trail would exist at this point.

Some suggestions, though; Okay, so, the Multi-Man-Maze sounds a good idea, but is as you said, kind of not the Lady's style. How about you run with the idea that the 'maze doesn't, on inspection, even seem to be a real maze, or that it always was one? What if the entity that sent them there wasn't even the Lady? Either something is masquerading as her, or they simply don't see/encounter the Entity in question (allowing them to assume they have been 'mazed' by the Lady either way, with the panick that should induce).
Of course, the most likely reason for the above would be one of two things.

Either the thing that traps them there wants them to do *something* in this not-actual-maze to further it's agenda, or it is using the chaos that the PC's created to acheive something in or around Sigil, possibly laying the foundations for an attempt to remove the Lady from the picture once and for all? Possibly all of the above. It has possibilities, perhaps.

Perhaps the multi-man-maze is an ancient, deep and forgotten part of Sigil that holds some clue to the Lady's identity, or nature?

Kylarra
2009-08-18, 11:23 AM
The Lady is just a wee bit dues ex machina, at times.

If no-one has any reason to know the PC's did it, then there is no way that anyone should know they did it. If the Lady was paying attention to them at the time, or had any reason at all to be scrying on them, sure, maze time.

But really, it's not like she has any real goals or ambition, so why would she bother hunting them down? She's practically an automaton. It's not like she has divine senses, as she's specifically not a Goddess. A wee bit? The Lady is a walking DeM. Considering she's supposed to be "more powerful than the gods" a bit of scrying/divination to find out the cause of the latest disturbance in Sigil is more than warranted, especially considering they've forced her to actually act in the first place.

However, like I said in my first post, they have exactly as long as the DM wants them to have before they are mazed, I'm just pointing out that it really shouldn't be that long, given the power level she is purported to have.

Tiki Snakes
2009-08-18, 12:41 PM
A wee bit? The Lady is a walking DeM. Considering she's supposed to be "more powerful than the gods" a bit of scrying/divination to find out the cause of the latest disturbance in Sigil is more than warranted, especially considering they've forced her to actually act in the first place.

However, like I said in my first post, they have exactly as long as the DM wants them to have before they are mazed, I'm just pointing out that it really shouldn't be that long, given the power level she is purported to have.

Given her essentially uncaring 'inscrutable' nature, and the fact that pretty much everyone she has any reason to believe was present has been mazed, how does she know there's anything to scry or divine about, though? Why does she have any reason to believe that everyone involved hasn't been mazed already?

Given her trumped up deus ex nature, and the fact that she's all to aware of it, she doesn't remotely strike me as the asmodian, magnificent bastard type. She seems exactly the kind of unsubtle scatter-gun approach using 'maze them all and let their gods sort it out' type, who's just going to turn up when suitably irritated, blast anything standing nearby and then slink off to return to contemplating the misery of her own existence or whatever it is she does for all eternity.

Jothki
2009-08-18, 04:32 PM
The Lady doesn't necessarily need to intervene for the PCs to be punished, since half of Sigil will be out for their blood. Some problems need force to handle, but some problems will handle themselves on their own.

Tiki Snakes
2009-08-18, 05:41 PM
The Lady doesn't necessarily need to intervene for the PCs to be punished, since half of Sigil will be out for their blood. Some problems need force to handle, but some problems will handle themselves on their own.

Again, this hinges on anyone currently not running through one of the Lady's Mazes having the faintest idea what just happened, and having the balls to step outside whilst the Lady is on the warpath.

oxinabox
2009-08-24, 09:16 AM
the PC have resolved the situation:
They Destroyed Sigil!

I'll go into this latter maybe, but they blew that plane good.

oxinabox
2009-08-24, 09:16 PM
So they Place a Large Magical explosive deivise (the one i mentioned before theat the devil wanted to use to blow down the gates of heaven)
Inbetween an open gate the positive energy plane, and an open gate to the negitive energy plane.
and then Called in a favour they had owning, from the fact that they stoppedd the gates of heaven being blown up, to have there souls removed and reincarnated.
The Lady turns up to stop them at the exact instant the boom happened.

The explosion ruptured the portals, and now sigil is flooded with negitive and positive energy, i think the lady may have survived, just, but all here energy is focused on stopping the demiplane being eniliated.
Everyone who lives there is dead.

How Much XP did they earn for killing a Large metropolis?

Yukitsu
2009-08-24, 09:35 PM
Probably none, since you pulled your punches to let them have a working plan of that variety.

Mongoose87
2009-08-24, 09:44 PM
Probably none, since you pulled your punches to let them have a working plan of that variety.

Yeah, really, The Lady has somewhat absolute power in Sigil. Really she could've offed them before they knew what had happened.

Kylarra
2009-08-24, 09:53 PM
I agree with the above two, and would like to say that they confused me with their double-avatars.

Yukitsu
2009-08-24, 09:55 PM
We aren't proper zombies unless we come in near identical droves.

Err, I mean Braaaaaaaains. :smallsigh:

Skorj
2009-08-24, 09:57 PM
How Much XP did they earn for killing a Large metropolis?

0 XP, since the Large Metropolis offered no challenge in combat. Tons of roleplaying XP though, if you ask me.

Kylarra
2009-08-24, 10:04 PM
We aren't proper zombies unless we come in near identical droves.

Err, I mean Braaaaaaaains. :smallsigh:

:smalleek:

Run awaaaaaay!

Mongoose87
2009-08-24, 10:07 PM
:smalleek:

Run awaaaaaay!

*Chases in a zombie like fashion*

Gnorman
2009-08-24, 10:45 PM
I've got to echo the above sentiments. The whole "Destroying Sigil" incident sounds like nothing more than an extended Deus Ex Machina - and especially in the case of your PCs, who were literally saved by celestials.

No challenge, no effort, no XP.

oxinabox
2009-08-24, 11:01 PM
My Gods arn't as all knowing, where the fun in even at epic lvl "I come up with a plan to destroy a god" relitivly standard quest at epic lvl.
God, I alter reality, they don' t have that plan.

It was fun, even if i did hold my punches, i've been holding them all along

Gnorman
2009-08-24, 11:10 PM
My Gods arn't as all knowing, where the fun in even at epic lvl "I come up with a plan to destroy a god" relitivly standard quest at epic lvl.
God, I alter reality, they don' t have that plan.

It was fun, even if i did hold my punches, i've been holding them all along

I'm not even really sure what that first paragraph means. I think... you're saying the Lady of Pain couldn't stop it? She's more powerful than any god. You might not be playing her as such, but then our opinions on the situation aren't going to be very relevant to your conception of her.

What's the point in asking us for advice and commentary on these things if you're just going to handwave it all away with "Well, sure, okay, but my gods aren't that powerful, my Lady's not that powerful"? Are you looking for us to just validate the conclusions you've already come to?

oxinabox
2009-08-24, 11:11 PM
now long term consiquense.
there are two creatures that are still alive that know about the PC's destroying the plane.

one is the Lady, who is neutralised, even she can't hold back two energy planes, and still have spare time, (not im my setting anyway).

The other is a the Sigil Rat Hivemind, which they warned and helped escape.
The rats would haved turned on them and stopped there home being destroyed, but they were linked into the hivemind, so the rats knew they had there reasons, and well there rats - they think like these PCs.

to anyone who said Alignement shift:
No alignment shift: Thye were chaotic evil all along.

Mongoose87
2009-08-24, 11:19 PM
My Gods arn't as all knowing, where the fun in even at epic lvl "I come up with a plan to destroy a god" relitivly standard quest at epic lvl.
God, I alter reality, they don' t have that plan.

It was fun, even if i did hold my punches, i've been holding them all along

The Lady isn't a regular god. Sigil is hers. In Sigil, if she wills it, it is so. If she knew the PCs were plotting against her, it's not a matter of her going and stopping them, it's a matter of her deciding they stop. That's it. Done. You don't do things without her noticing, you are simply allowed to do them.

oxinabox
2009-08-24, 11:19 PM
What's the point in asking us for advice and commentary on these things if you're just going to handwave it all away with "Well, sure, okay, but my gods aren't that powerful, my Lady's not that powerful"? Are you looking for us to just validate the conclusions you've already come to?

No, I just throught someone might be amused, by these happenings.
No need to get angery.
Modifying a setting (even one as awesome, and central as Planescape) isn't Blasphomy



The Lady isn't a regular god. Sigil is hers. In Sigil, if she wills it, it is so. If she knew the PCs were plotting against her, it's not a matter of her going and stopping them, it's a matter of her deciding they stop. That's it. Done. You don't do things without her noticing, you are simply allowed to do them.
again, mines different. she has to realy one powerful srcying (which she can do as a free action)
Leave off.

Doc Roc
2009-08-24, 11:29 PM
I guess what we're saying is that within the context of your game, this is a lovely and exciting adventure. We weren't there, and we don't know the shape of your setting, so we can't help you.

Kylarra
2009-08-24, 11:36 PM
I guess what we're saying is that within the context of your game, this is a lovely and exciting adventure. We weren't there, and we don't know the shape of your setting, so we can't help you.

That's probably a nicer way of saying whatever I was typing.

Gnorman
2009-08-24, 11:39 PM
I guess what we're saying is that within the context of your game, this is a lovely and exciting adventure. We weren't there, and we don't know the shape of your setting, so we can't help you.

Yeah. Exactly. Kind of the end of my commentary.

Eldan
2009-08-25, 04:17 AM
It's just that you originally asked what would happen in a Planescape game if your PCs did something, namely starting a civil war. The answer was obvious:
the Lady, being nearly all-seeing within the boundaries of Sigil would stop them.
If they planted an explosive device powerful enough to stop Sigil, she really has several possibilities: close the portals, they are really only an extension of her will.
She can, technically, even turn back time, as she did after the Vecna incident... so really, no hope in doing anything.
Also: an explosion would technically close the portals by itself, as they stop existing as soon as they stop being anchored toa closed structure.

Now, as you said, it's your game, and oyu can modify it as you want to, especially if your entire group is having fun. However, it doesn't make much sense to come and ask what the lady would do if you later tell us that your lady is massively down-powered. In that case, you should ask yourself why the bloodwar hasn't been raging in Sigil for millenia: if she can't close portals, kill people who enter or control the layout of the city, there's really not much stoping the fiends.

Kris Strife
2009-08-25, 05:30 AM
*Chases in a zombie like fashion*

*walks at a brisk pace* :smallamused:

Cheesegear
2009-08-25, 05:45 AM
In that case, you should ask yourself why the bloodwar hasn't been raging in Sigil for millenia: if she can't close portals, kill people who enter or control the layout of the city, there's really not much stoping the fiends.

Seconded. The premise of Sigil's neutrality is fear. Neutrality made by the Lady who will seriously F* you up before you even carry out your crazy plan to disrupt Sigil in the first place.

If the Lady can be defeated, or is de-powered somewhat, Sigil would turn to Chaos.

...But, it's all apparently moot since your players blew Sigil up. Why the Lady didn't think "I close the portals." and then the portals close before she even needs to think is beyond me. :smallconfused:
Still...Your campaign, your adventure. If you step outside the setting, we really can't validate your actions aside from "What? That wouldn't/shouldn't happen because..."

...Which, from this thread, appears to be exactly what happened.

oxinabox
2009-08-25, 06:20 AM
She can't close portals, but she can denmy entry.
She can't kill people from anywhere with a thoguht.
she can maze or kill people with a touch.

sorry i forgot i asked what she should do.
thank, and sorry
Ox

Gnorman
2009-08-25, 06:39 AM
She can't close portals, but she can denmy entry.
She can't kill people from anywhere with a thoguht.
she can maze or kill people with a touch.

sorry i forgot i asked what she should do.
thank, and sorry
Ox

Then she's the Lady of Pain in name only, and you can do whatever you want with her.

RagnaroksChosen
2009-08-25, 07:15 AM
She can't close portals, but she can denmy entry.
She can't kill people from anywhere with a thoguht.
she can maze or kill people with a touch.

sorry i forgot i asked what she should do.
thank, and sorry
Ox

In the planescape setting the lady has told gods to sit down and shut up.. ty sure she has divine ranks though i don't realy know.

The only way i could see any of this happening is if some how enough gods backed up the pcs and they where able to use there energy to keep them off the ladys radar...

Not to be rude or any thing but although it is cool what you pcs did you can't rely be like this is awsome in planescape because every one is like that would never happen. Its one of the reasons I enjoy playing more sandbox games cuz then my pc's can be like We did this and this and we know that the gm wasn't pulling punches.

Tiki Snakes
2009-08-25, 09:57 AM
Forgive me for the following, because I've never got my hands on planescape etc itself.

HOWEVER, no-where on the Wiki entry on her Deus-Ex-Machinaship does it say she is in any way omniscient. She is apparently powerful, protects sigil, can close or bar portals, is rumoured to have taken down greater gods, and killed at least one god with a thought. Though as far as I can see, the only such god seems to have been created for the Planescape setting specifically so that he could have been killed by the Lady. (Essentially Jobbing, I guess.)

She is also specifically NOT a Deity, as far as I can see, so can't be automatically assumed to have the powers that a God would have.

And frankly, the whole reason she is so disappointingly lacking in personality, backstory or motive is so that she can be, with no effort and with nothing to contradict written however you like in each campaign.

So, really, the nerd rage over her ever (OH EM GEE!) being shown up, is really rather over the top, in my opinion.

Well done that party. Serves her hollow shell of a boring Deus-ex self right. :P

Killer Angel
2009-08-25, 10:10 AM
The OP posted also this "new" thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=122678)on the argument. Even if it's about the xp gain, the discussion is now expanding, and probably we should "merge" the threads (let's posting only on the new one?).

RagnaroksChosen
2009-08-25, 10:14 AM
Forgive me for the following, because I've never got my hands on planescape etc itself.

HOWEVER, no-where on the Wiki entry on her Deus-Ex-Machinaship does it say she is in any way omniscient. She is apparently powerful, protects sigil, can close or bar portals, is rumoured to have taken down greater gods, and killed at least one god with a thought. Though as far as I can see, the only such god seems to have been created for the Planescape setting specifically so that he could have been killed by the Lady. (Essentially Jobbing, I guess.)

She is also specifically NOT a Deity, as far as I can see, so can't be automatically assumed to have the powers that a God would have.

And frankly, the whole reason she is so disappointingly lacking in personality, backstory or motive is so that she can be, with no effort and with nothing to contradict written however you like in each campaign.

So, really, the nerd rage over her ever (OH EM GEE!) being shown up, is really rather over the top, in my opinion.

Well done that party. Serves her hollow shell of a boring Deus-ex self right. :P


That may be the case. But saying how awesome it is to of tricked the lady when your pulling your punches isn't realy that great and then asking what she would do.

As far as the wiki goes, i wouldn't realy trust it... I wish mimir was still up. But if you read the 2nd ed books they alluded to The lady being all powerfull. I'm guessing she is just an epic level wizard/cleric or something that made her self a god more then any thing.. this being her plane she can do what she wants.

I believe they also make mention of it in the Game Planescape torment as well.

So no nerd rage just irritated at what would the lady due and then saw how awsome there part was when they where pulling punches.

Eldan
2009-08-25, 10:18 AM
Actually, the Lady as a walking Deus Ex without personality is the only thing that makes Planescape as it is playable. If she weren't around flaying everyone, it would take days or less for everyone to try and get their hands on Sigil: fiends, though specifically barred from entering the prime and most planes unless summoned, can enter Sigil. It would probably take hours to turn the entire city into yet another Bloodwar battlefield, and probably the most hotly contested one, which would mean that there was barely any neutral ground where the players could go in relative safety.
I love to read crazy theories about the Lady, actually, and congratulate every DM that manages to build her into an adventure in a creative fashion, even if it means blowing up Planescape. (Heck, one of my favourite ideas was a postapocalyptic Planescape in which the overabundance of free league members compared to harmonium members had managed to tilt Sigil over to the chaotic side, at which point it fell off the spire and crashed into the outlands near Glorium.)
Assuming that she has godlike powers is, of course, not a given and she doesn't shown any of the characteristics of one: the most important one, worship, is explicitely forbidden. However, she has several clearly stated powers: to change the layout of the city is one of them. She is able to take entire streets and city blocks and twist them in on itself until they become extradimensional mazes. Some poor fellows don't notice they are in one for hours. Also, she has show to be able to locate people annoying her without any visible means of espionage.

Now, as I said before: I like to hear stories about people modifying existing settings, and nothing is better than people having fun with their game. If blowing up Sigil is fun for you (I mean, who wouldn't like to do that, just to be able to say they had done it), by all means, do so, and come tell us the story.

If in your setting, for your enjoyment, the lady is weaker and the fiends and other wannabe multiverse-controllers are kept out of Sigil in another way, more power to you. However, the game is, in that case, a heavily modified version of planescape, and you can not assume that others will be able to give you advice on how to handle it without knowing the details.

Doc Roc
2009-08-25, 10:25 AM
Forgive me for the following, because I've never got my hands on planescape etc itself.

HOWEVER, no-where on the Wiki entry on her Deus-Ex-Machinaship does it say she is in any way omniscient. She is apparently powerful, protects sigil, can close or bar portals, is rumoured to have taken down greater gods, and killed at least one god with a thought. Though as far as I can see, the only such god seems to have been created for the Planescape setting specifically so that he could have been killed by the Lady. (Essentially Jobbing, I guess.)

She is also specifically NOT a Deity, as far as I can see, so can't be automatically assumed to have the powers that a God would have.

And frankly, the whole reason she is so disappointingly lacking in personality, backstory or motive is so that she can be, with no effort and with nothing to contradict written however you like in each campaign.

So, really, the nerd rage over her ever (OH EM GEE!) being shown up, is really rather over the top, in my opinion.

Well done that party. Serves her hollow shell of a boring Deus-ex self right. :P

I dunno. I've never felt this way. To be fair, you're just skimming wiki-wikis, but there's actually a hell of a lot of lore about the Lady floating around, bits and bobs of information and half-stories. There's a rich history for her actions, the terrible strangeness of her interactions with the world. The thing that was precious about the Lady was that she was completely alien. She didn't exist within the system proper, nor did she exist within the systemic logic of the setting. And the fact that most people are okay with that is a triumph in the design and deployment of the planescape setting.

Note: She also threw out Vecna, a deity who was certainly not created just so that she could do that.

Tiki Snakes
2009-08-25, 10:52 AM
I dunno. I've never felt this way. To be fair, you're just skimming wiki-wikis, but there's actually a hell of a lot of lore about the Lady floating around, bits and bobs of information and half-stories. There's a rich history for her actions, the terrible strangeness of her interactions with the world. The thing that was precious about the Lady was that she was completely alien. She didn't exist within the system proper, nor did she exist within the systemic logic of the setting. And the fact that most people are okay with that is a triumph in the design and deployment of the planescape setting.

Note: She also threw out Vecna, a deity who was certainly not created just so that she could do that.

As I understand it from, yes, the Wiki-Wikis, she throws out vecna at the end of the big 'Change Everything' story-arc that justified the setting changes between 2nd and 3rd ed. Essentially taking on the Classic Deus Ex Machina role. :)


My point is, or at least also encompasses, Eldan, the idea that there is nothing I can find that even necessitates that the Lady in his game would HAVE to be a weaker version, because without Omniscience, there's nothing she could have done as far as I can see. If you cannot predict the threat, if you do not know that there is a problem, all the instant-mazing, planar-reshaping power in the world will do nothing to help you.


For my mind, too much of what the Lady does or is tied to speaks of weakness and fear for me to buy the 'greatest above all' depiction of her as all-knowing, all-seeing, all-powerfull over-deity who cannot ever be beaten in even the smallest of ways.

For Example - She defends sigil against other people taking it from her. This means it NEEDS defending, because it CAN be taken from her.
- Aosker(whatever his name is) the God of Portals. She killed him only at a certain point, well into his attempt to usurp her. Why wait? I don't buy the apathetic angle, personally. It sounds more like she needed to wait for some specific combination of events or conditions. More specifically though, she has had his name stricken. It is forbidden. Why would that be, if not to prevent his return? Why such care if that possibility didn't hold some grain of threat?
There's also the simple point that, in most interpretations of it all, the Lady is Imprisoned in Sigil. She has, at some point, therefor, already lost. And in all this time, she has not escaped, but instead protects her cage.
It gives me food for thought, at the very least.

RagnaroksChosen
2009-08-25, 11:00 AM
As I understand it from, yes, the Wiki-Wikis, she throws out vecna at the end of the big 'Change Everything' story-arc that justified the setting changes between 2nd and 3rd ed. Essentially taking on the Classic Deus Ex Machina role. :)


My point is, or at least also encompasses, Eldan, the idea that there is nothing I can find that even necessitates that the Lady in his game would HAVE to be a weaker version, because without Omniscience, there's nothing she could have done as far as I can see. If you cannot predict the threat, if you do not know that there is a problem, all the instant-mazing, planar-reshaping power in the world will do nothing to help you.


For my mind, too much of what the Lady does or is tied to speaks of weakness and fear for me to buy the 'greatest above all' depiction of her as all-knowing, all-seeing, all-powerfull over-deity who cannot ever be beaten in even the smallest of ways.

For Example - She defends sigil against other people taking it from her. This means it NEEDS defending, because it CAN be taken from her.
- Aosker(whatever his name is) the God of Portals. She killed him only at a certain point, well into his attempt to usurp her. Why wait? I don't buy the apathetic angle, personally. It sounds more like she needed to wait for some specific combination of events or conditions. More specifically though, she has had his name stricken. It is forbidden. Why would that be, if not to prevent his return? Why such care if that possibility didn't hold some grain of threat?
There's also the simple point that, in most interpretations of it all, the Lady is Imprisoned in Sigil. She has, at some point, therefor, already lost. And in all this time, she has not escaped, but instead protects her cage.
It gives me food for thought, at the very least.

Agreed she does seem to be all kinds of protective of her cage... there is mention that she is imprisoned in Sigil in a few spots.

Alos even with this magic bomb i seriously dout that sigil it self would be blown up. never mind any hugly powerfull creatures residing there. No diviners scrying on it. Sounds to me like the lady should have known about it. as well as in multiple sources she seems to just apear when something bad is happening in sigil i think she is omni present or can sense things in sigil.. im away from my books atm or i would go see if i can find some info about that

Tiki Snakes
2009-08-25, 11:10 AM
Agreed she does seem to be all kinds of protective of her cage... there is mention that she is imprisoned in Sigil in a few spots.

Alos even with this magic bomb i seriously dout that sigil it self would be blown up. never mind any hugly powerfull creatures residing there. No diviners scrying on it. Sounds to me like the lady should have known about it. as well as in multiple sources she seems to just apear when something bad is happening in sigil i think she is omni present or can sense things in sigil.. im away from my books atm or i would go see if i can find some info about that

No, she 'just turns up' because she exists entirely for Deus Ex moments. That's the whole point.

As I understand it, though, the structure of Sigil might still exist, it's just that there are enormous rifts to both the positive and negative elemental planes, and they are slooshing through the plane like some kind of unholy tornado. Given that either Element on its own will kill most creatures, and they are mixing violently, anything less sturdy than the structure of space and time is pretty much toast. If she's still kicking, I understand the OP had the lady stuck in the middle of all this on her own, juuust about holding off the endless waves of rampant energy.

Chances are, plenty of those who can leave would have got away, simply because I would imagine that the Auguries would have been pretty bad for weeks or months, maybe longer. It's quite possible that the mass exodus, rioting, and all the other chaotic events of the time are the only reason the Lady didn't get there in-time to realise what was happening.

PonceAlyosha
2009-08-25, 11:35 AM
No, she 'just turns up' because she exists entirely for Deus Ex moments. That's the whole point.

As I understand it, though, the structure of Sigil might still exist, it's just that there are enormous rifts to both the positive and negative elemental planes, and they are slooshing through the plane like some kind of unholy tornado. Given that either Element on its own will kill most creatures, and they are mixing violently, anything less sturdy than the structure of space and time is pretty much toast. If she's still kicking, I understand the OP had the lady stuck in the middle of all this on her own, juuust about holding off the endless waves of rampant energy.

Chances are, plenty of those who can leave would have got away, simply because I would imagine that the Auguries would have been pretty bad for weeks or months, maybe longer. It's quite possible that the mass exodus, rioting, and all the other chaotic events of the time are the only reason the Lady didn't get there in-time to realise what was happening.

Reconciling both points of view is easy. She doesn't give a crap about the people within Sigil, just the city itself.

She could have rerouted the energy out thought other portals, flooding areas of other planes with Positive and Negative energy, randomly. Or she could just open up a single portal to Limbo. suck in the energy and totally preserve the status quo.

If she has existed forever, there's really no reason why she should ever rush.

Eldan
2009-08-25, 12:15 PM
The way I see it,m assuming this is Planescape, I see two scenarios:

Killing the Lady, sparing the cage: congratulations: for the next ten-thousand years, every faction, god, titan, sect, group of outsiders, cosmic entity, church, guild and high-level adventurer will try and conquer sigil. They tried to do it when the Lady was there, she stopped them. With her gone? Utter chaos. He who controls Sigil, controls the universe. Literally. Go wherever you want, in seconds. The bloodwar is a joke when the Tanar'ri or Baatezu can walk wherever they want. Which means the upper planes will try and stop them. And so on. There won't be people left to congratulate the players, because they are all fighting.

Destroying the Cage: if they destroy it forever, the entire structure of planar trade collapses. Nearly every trade route in the planes goes through sigil, because it is more reliable and safe and also infinitely quicker than just about any other way. If you want to sell the weapons of bytopian mastercrafters in Acheron, you can try and walk through Celestia, Arcadia and Mechanus. It has been stated several time in sourcebooks that this will take years, or a lifetime. All of these planes are dangerous. So are the outlands, the only other plane. There, the ways and distances shift. Specifically, it always takes about ten days to get anywhere, no matter the distance. All magic fails if you go close to the spire, even that of the overgods, and monster lurk there. Not a good place to go, either. So, the planes are plunged in utter chaos, to say the least.

Now, as I said, this makes for a great campaign, when done correctly. But somehow, I can't really imagine how one would handle the destruction of Sigil without thinkiing about such consequences. That is a DMs job: preparing the world and then letting it react in an adequate manner to the players actions.

Edit: to directly adress Tiki Snakes' point: I didn't say that the lady would have to be significantly weaker for this scenario to happen. However, Oxinabox said that his version was, in several ways. And why she may not be omniscient, she certainly has proven to find out about things that happened in cellars between two people, both of which were found dead. (Similar to how Vetinari's Intel on the Thieves Guild was described in one discworld book). It isn't said how she does it, but she can.

RagnaroksChosen
2009-08-25, 12:23 PM
The way I see it,m assuming this is Planescape, I see two scenarios:

Killing the Lady, sparing the cage: congratulations: for the next ten-thousand years, every faction, god, titan, sect, group of outsiders, cosmic entity, church, guild and high-level adventurer will try and conquer sigil. They tried to do it when the Lady was there, she stopped them. With her gone? Utter chaos. He who controls Sigil, controls the universe. Literally. Go wherever you want, in seconds. The bloodwar is a joke when the Tanar'ri or Baatezu can walk wherever they want. Which means the upper planes will try and stop them. And so on. There won't be people left to congratulate the players, because they are all fighting.

Destroying the Cage: if they destroy it forever, the entire structure of planar trade collapses. Nearly every trade route in the planes goes through sigil, because it is more reliable and safe and also infinitely quicker than just about any other way. If you want to sell the weapons of bytopian mastercrafters in Acheron, you can try and walk through Celestia, Arcadia and Mechanus. It has been stated several time in sourcebooks that this will take years, or a lifetime. All of these planes are dangerous. So are the outlands, the only other plane. There, the ways and distances shift. Specifically, it always takes about ten days to get anywhere, no matter the distance. All magic fails if you go close to the spire, even that of the overgods, and monster lurk there. Not a good place to go, either. So, the planes are plunged in utter chaos, to say the least.

Now, as I said, this makes for a great campaign, when done correctly. But somehow, I can't really imagine how one would handle the destruction of Sigil without thinkiing about such consequences. That is a DMs job: preparing the world and then letting it react in an adequate manner to the players actions.

Edit: to directly adress Tiki Snakes' point: I didn't say that the lady would have to be significantly weaker for this scenario to happen. However, Oxinabox said that his version was, in several ways. And why she may not be omniscient, she certainly has proven to find out about things that happened in cellars between two people, both of which were found dead. (Similar to how Vetinari's Intel on the Thieves Guild was described in one discworld book). It isn't said how she does it, but she can.

O ****, I didn't even think of the trade routes thing.. that would totaly f.. up the universe... GG PC's welcome to the end times.

Grey Knight
2009-08-25, 12:28 PM
Never mind all these elaborate plans to hunt the PCs down and kill them, just inform them how magic item prices have inflated staggeringly, and watch their little faces fall. That's punishment enough for anyone! :smallbiggrin:

Eldan
2009-08-25, 12:31 PM
Just give them the choice of trecking to Bytopia to buy from honest craftsmen and live a life of pastoral boringness, or go to the lower planes and convince the fiends to sell them weapons that are necessary for the blood war, now that there's a shortage :smalltongue:

RagnaroksChosen
2009-08-25, 12:33 PM
Just give them the choice of trecking to Bytopia to buy from honest craftsmen and live a life of pastoral boringness, or go to the lower planes and convince the fiends to sell them weapons that are necessary for the blood war, now that there's a shortage :smalltongue:

That is if the fiends will even trade with them now that they screwed up there only meens of getting more weapons..

Random832
2009-08-25, 01:10 PM
Destroying the Cage: if they destroy it forever, the entire structure of planar trade collapses. Nearly every trade route in the planes goes through sigil, because it is more reliable and safe and also infinitely quicker than just about any other way. If you want to sell the weapons of bytopian mastercrafters in Acheron, you can try and walk through Celestia, Arcadia and Mechanus. It has been stated several time in sourcebooks that this will take years, or a lifetime. All of these planes are dangerous. So are the outlands, the only other plane.

Um... I haven't read about all this, so maybe I'm an idiot, but...

What about the Material, and plane shift (or Transport seed epic spells)?

PonceAlyosha
2009-08-25, 01:20 PM
The way I see it,m assuming this is Planescape, I see two scenarios:

Killing the Lady, sparing the cage: congratulations: for the next ten-thousand years, every faction, god, titan, sect, group of outsiders, cosmic entity, church, guild and high-level adventurer will try and conquer sigil. They tried to do it when the Lady was there, she stopped them. With her gone? Utter chaos. He who controls Sigil, controls the universe. Literally. Go wherever you want, in seconds. The bloodwar is a joke when the Tanar'ri or Baatezu can walk wherever they want. Which means the upper planes will try and stop them. And so on. There won't be people left to congratulate the players, because they are all fighting.

Destroying the Cage: if they destroy it forever, the entire structure of planar trade collapses. Nearly every trade route in the planes goes through sigil, because it is more reliable and safe and also infinitely quicker than just about any other way. If you want to sell the weapons of bytopian mastercrafters in Acheron, you can try and walk through Celestia, Arcadia and Mechanus. It has been stated several time in sourcebooks that this will take years, or a lifetime. All of these planes are dangerous. So are the outlands, the only other plane. There, the ways and distances shift. Specifically, it always takes about ten days to get anywhere, no matter the distance. All magic fails if you go close to the spire, even that of the overgods, and monster lurk there. Not a good place to go, either. So, the planes are plunged in utter chaos, to say the least.

Now, as I said, this makes for a great campaign, when done correctly. But somehow, I can't really imagine how one would handle the destruction of Sigil without thinkiing about such consequences. That is a DMs job: preparing the world and then letting it react in an adequate manner to the players actions.

Edit: to directly adress Tiki Snakes' point: I didn't say that the lady would have to be significantly weaker for this scenario to happen. However, Oxinabox said that his version was, in several ways. And why she may not be omniscient, she certainly has proven to find out about things that happened in cellars between two people, both of which were found dead. (Similar to how Vetinari's Intel on the Thieves Guild was described in one discworld book). It isn't said how she does it, but she can.

So the Lady of Pain is Duke Leto II? That's incredibly awesome. Her downfall is but the first step on the Painful Path.

Eldan
2009-08-25, 01:43 PM
Um... I haven't read about all this, so maybe I'm an idiot, but...

What about the Material, and plane shift (or Transport seed epic spells)?

Well, plane shift is around, of course. However, compare the normal profits of a trade caravan to the cost of a single planeshift or gate. It's expensive and you'd have to convince wizards to drag around trade caravans to fuel the trade. of course, there would be ring gates and all that, but setting it up would require ages.

Also: planeshift is incredibly unreliable: it dumps you to a random point on the first layer of the target plane. Since they are infinite, and most have 5+ layers...


So the Lady of Pain is Duke Leto II? That's incredibly awesome. Her downfall is but the first step on the Painful Path.

You know, there I am, quoting Dune, and don't even notice that connection. True, though: no Lady, no Spice. :smallbiggrin:

Now I have a campaign idea where the Lady sets up a complicated plan to send the Dabus out into the multiverse to found a faction to kill her, so that eventually, a multiverse dependent on her transport services will splinter into factions and end the stiffling status quo.

Random832
2009-08-25, 02:45 PM
Well, yeah, the costs would go up, and so therefore would the price - but there's a limit. They wouldn't have to spend lifetimes walking all the way around the ring.

Samb
2009-08-25, 06:38 PM
Since this has happened I'd say you played the Lady completely wrong. Have you read Fraction Wars? Someone made an elaborate plot to overthrow the Lady by doing basically what you said. Cause in-fighting between the very same fractions your PCs did and he was much more subtle about it. Honestly from you said, your PC are small small potatoes compared to him.

What end up happeneing with him was an endless cycle of madness that looped in time with no hope of escape.

You failed as a DM.

It's an easy mistake to make when your PCs shock you with their behavior but the fact is you allowed your PCs too much. The Lady can put you into a maze before you even think of doing something stupid, she can close all the portals in Sigil with a thought so no one can escape and take her sweet time punishing your PCs.

Eldan
2009-08-25, 06:59 PM
You failed as a DM.
.

That's much too harsh. A DM never fails as long as everyone at his table has fun.

It's not a perfect representation of Planescape, but no one denies that. However: the Lady of Pain, besides being a complete Deus Ex Machina, is also an enigma: we know she is powerful and deadly and somehow seems to control portals, stop gods and keep them out. But we don't know how. Perhaps she is the most epic druid in the mutliverse and has a network of spy fleas that tell her everything she has to know. Perhaps she has to petition the overmind of Sigil to kill a god for her when he gets annoying. Perhaps the Dabus are a beehive-like society and she is simply the queen, protecting the rest of the hive. We don't know. Perhaps she is omniscient, perhaps she isn't. Perhaps she never killed a god: Aoskar took one of her Dabus, perhaps Sigil itself killed him, not the lady. We will never know, officially, but if a DM finds an answer that, for him, makes a good adventure, he should pursue it.

PonceAlyosha
2009-08-25, 07:06 PM
Since this has happened I'd say you played the Lady completely wrong. Have you read Fraction Wars? Someone made an elaborate plot to overthrow the Lady by doing basically what you said. Cause in-fighting between the very same fractions your PCs did and he was much more subtle about it. Honestly from you said, your PC are small small potatoes compared to him.

What end up happeneing with him was an endless cycle of madness that looped in time with no hope of escape.

You failed as a DM.

It's an easy mistake to make when your PCs shock you with their behavior but the fact is you allowed your PCs too much. The Lady can put you into a maze before you even think of doing something stupid, she can close all the portals in Sigil with a thought so no one can escape and take her sweet time punishing your PCs.

And if they went back and plundered the empty Sigil, under the eyes of the wrothful Lady, whom has failed in her eternal quest, would you say he failed as a DM? That would be like Theseus and the Minotaur on speed, I wanna run this now.

Samb
2009-08-25, 07:08 PM
We will never know, officially, but if a DM finds an answer that, for him, makes a good adventure, he should pursue it.

But that is not what happened. The PCs just plain outwitted the "Lady" with a simple gimmick. The person that caused the Fraction war was a level 20 range AND level 20 cleric, the Factol of a whole fraction, had to bounce around time and had an artifact to even faze the Lady. As it turns out it didn't even faze her all that much, just a appeared that way to trap him.

So a level 40 character armed with an army, time travel and an ancient artifact DIDN'T even come close to hurting her, and now a group pre-epics somehow tosses the multiverse into chaos with simple illusions?

Does he even realize that even Venca as a GREATER god could not even do what the PCs in the OP said? In my book he failed as a DM. Epically.

Samb
2009-08-25, 07:12 PM
And if they went back and plundered the empty Sigil, under the eyes of the wrothful Lady, whom has failed in her eternal quest, would you say he failed as a DM? That would be like Theseus and the Minotaur on speed, I wanna run this now.

If he did that he is only on damage control. He has already failed as a DM and now is just trying to salvage a ruined game. How did they even escape in the first place? The Lady controls all the portals in Sigil at a whim. It's called the cage for a reason.

Tiki Snakes
2009-08-25, 07:39 PM
If he did that he is only on damage control. He has already failed as a DM and now is just trying to salvage a ruined game. How did they even escape in the first place? The Lady controls all the portals in Sigil at a whim. It's called the cage for a reason.

So, he's a bad DM, he's doing it wrong, the game is ruined.
Perhaps he should just cancel the game, hand himself into the authorities, and book an audience with his local priest to beg forgiveness for Daring to represent the Lady in any-way other than omniscient, omnipotent, over-god of over-gods?

Or should we just hold him down and beat him with sticks?

Really, the level of personal outrage that some people responding to this thread are exhibiting is unpleasant and totally uncalled for.

Milskidasith
2009-08-25, 07:41 PM
The thing is, he's not a bad DM, but he isn't playing with a normal Sigil, and he didn't bother to tell us that until way later. He didn't give us nearly enough relevant information, and it appears that his gods are able to be stopped by nonepic (not sure what level) characters, which seems... odd.

Samb
2009-08-25, 07:47 PM
So, he's a bad DM, he's doing it wrong, the game is ruined.
Perhaps he should just cancel the game, hand himself into the authorities, and book an audience with his local priest to beg forgiveness for Daring to represent the Lady in any-way other than omniscient, omnipotent, over-god of over-gods?

Or should we just hold him down and beat him with sticks?

Really, the level of personal outrage that some people responding to this thread are exhibiting is unpleasant and totally uncalled for.

Well I wouldn't go that far but it is a start.

He did do a bad job and I pointed it out. So what? What he did was exactly what you don't do as a DM. When I DM I will use him as a learning experience as to how NOT to do it.

He asked what he should do, and I simply said he has already messed it up beyond recognition (FUBAR) and that previous attempts to do just what the PCs are trying all failed spectacularly. If he was weary of what happened in Fraction Wars and Die, Venca, Die, this would all be a non-issue.

Sorry if I think DM should know the rules better than that. If holding DMs to a higher standard is being "unpleasant" then so be it.

Random832
2009-08-25, 09:53 PM
He asked what he should do, and I simply said he has already messed it up beyond recognition (FUBAR) and that previous attempts to do just what the PCs are trying all failed spectacularly.

Previous attempts to do what? There's no indication that the players were trying to conquer Sigil at all. They certainly didn't succeed in doing so. Merely because the means used in a previous attempt to conquer it happens to superficially resemble how this started, doesn't mean it will turn out the same way. We don't necessarily know that she wants to prevent its destruction.

RagnaroksChosen
2009-08-26, 06:36 AM
Previous attempts to do what? There's no indication that the players were trying to conquer Sigil at all. They certainly didn't succeed in doing so. Merely because the means used in a previous attempt to conquer it happens to superficially resemble how this started, doesn't mean it will turn out the same way. We don't necessarily know that she wants to prevent its destruction.


Realy cuz all the previous attempts at destroying it where stoped. and she guards it so preciously.


I have to agree with Samb he did fail as a GM. Didn't take into account not only the lady but any one else. How many higher level creatures run through sigil? True seeing, things that can see through illusions. Never mind interaction with the illusions should have gotten will saves. There's a lot of things wrong with his gming. I meen its not bad Per say but its god no planescape.. and if its not planescape why ask for advice.

Random832
2009-08-26, 06:43 AM
Realy cuz all the previous attempts at destroying it where stoped.

Nobody has cited an attempt to destroy Sigil. The closest has been [Faction Wars] an attempt to conquer it (which happened to start the same way as this), and [Die Vecna Die!] a use of it as a platform to destroy the multiverse.

When the main concern is denying the ability for any one powerful faction to use it as a platform to do whatever they want to the rest of reality... Well, then the answer is obvious: don't think of it as having been destroyed. Think of it as having been made perfectly safe.

magellan
2009-08-26, 07:12 AM
I promise to read the whole thread next time before posting....

RagnaroksChosen
2009-08-26, 08:12 AM
Nobody has cited an attempt to destroy Sigil. The closest has been [Faction Wars] an attempt to conquer it (which happened to start the same way as this), and [Die Vecna Die!] a use of it as a platform to destroy the multiverse.

When the main concern is denying the ability for any one powerful faction to use it as a platform to do whatever they want to the rest of reality... Well, then the answer is obvious: don't think of it as having been destroyed. Think of it as having been made perfectly safe.

re-read some fluff i had thought Vecna tried to destroy it.. Destroying it to me is controling it...


Also would flooding the area with positive and negative energy at the same time rely destroy it?

Random832
2009-08-26, 08:18 AM
re-read some fluff i had thought Vecna tried to destroy it.. Destroying it to me is controling it...

The secondhand description I saw earlier in the other thread was that he had used it to destroy the multiverse. Which isn't really the same thing, even if it did incidentally get destroyed along with everything else.

Haven
2009-08-26, 08:25 AM
Nobody has cited an attempt to destroy Sigil. The closest has been [Faction Wars] an attempt to conquer it (which happened to start the same way as this), and [Die Vecna Die!] a use of it as a platform to destroy the multiverse.

When the main concern is denying the ability for any one powerful faction to use it as a platform to do whatever they want to the rest of reality... Well, then the answer is obvious: don't think of it as having been destroyed. Think of it as having been made perfectly safe.

Well, another thing to consider is: if it was this easy to blow up Sigil (and considering that she apparently just left two portals which interact with each other in this way just laying around, it is trivially easy), why wouldn't it have happened before? It's not like the PCs are the only ones with motives to do this--some of the more off-the-deep-end Anarchists, or some of the more coherent slaad, would have loved to destroy the city.

Herbstfarben
2009-08-26, 10:23 AM
Well, another thing to consider is: if it was this easy to blow up Sigil (and considering that she apparently just left two portals which interact with each other in this way just laying around, it is trivially easy), why wouldn't it have happened before? It's not like the PCs are the only ones with motives to do this--some of the more off-the-deep-end Anarchists, or some of the more coherent slaad, would have loved to destroy the city.

You can apply that to every event. Why wasn't the level 1 goblin cleric killed before the players even created their PCs?

The answer probably is that the GM wanted the players to have fun. Curses upon him and upon rule 0.

misterk
2009-08-26, 04:14 PM
I can certainly see lots of reasons from this thread why the players probably shouldn't have succeded. So? The players came up with what sounds like a not totally unreasonable plan, calling in a divine marker to back them up, and the gm decided to reward them for it. My, that actually sounds like... fun... I was all ready to come to this thread and be horrified about what the gm was doing, but it sounds like he's responding to his players and having a bit of fun with them.

How dare he indeed.

Haven
2009-08-26, 04:26 PM
You can apply that to every event. Why wasn't the level 1 goblin cleric killed before the players even created their PCs?

The answer probably is that the GM wanted the players to have fun. Curses upon him and upon rule 0.

That's a pretty ridiculous comparison. A level 1 goblin cleric isn't that big a deal; the PCs are the only ones who are both capable of dealing with it and willing/don't have other things to deal with. In contrast, there are, or should be, gods and demons and even perfectly mundane people who would profit from destroying Sigil.

So, putting aside all my other problems with making the destruction of Sigil and the evasion of the Lady so easy: the act implies that nobody who wanted to destroy Sigil was more powerful/capable than the PCs. Which means they might as well either pack up the game now because they could beat everyone with no effort, or everything more powerful than them in the multiverse now wants them dead. And if it ends with them not dead, well, that's the same as "they could beat everyone with little effort".

I'm exaggerating a little, but still.

RagnaroksChosen
2009-08-26, 05:50 PM
I can certainly see lots of reasons from this thread why the players probably shouldn't have succeded. So? The players came up with what sounds like a not totally unreasonable plan, calling in a divine marker to back them up, and the gm decided to reward them for it. My, that actually sounds like... fun... I was all ready to come to this thread and be horrified about what the gm was doing, but it sounds like he's responding to his players and having a bit of fun with them.

How dare he indeed.


I think that's what the argument is... that its unreasonable.

its unreasonable:
A. to wipe out sigil from a device that opens portals to the plane of positive and negative energy.
B. That the Lady would be fooled so easily.
C. That the lady couldn't just stop them.
D. That the Lady didn't kill them (by closing all the portals to and from sigil before they could leave)
E. That the campaign isn't over cuz now A bunch of angry super powerful beings are now trying to kill the PC's. Being that the players are under epic. And the fact that epic creatures run around the planes... They can be found.

Haven
2009-08-26, 06:11 PM
Here's the analogy for the situation that just occurred to me: It's like playing in Middle Earth, except Gandalf or Sauron can be beaten by commoners, and the One Ring can be destroyed by mundane methods. But they still have the same importance they do in the setting.

Aside from the fact that this (rightfully) annoys fans, you have to ask the question: "Why are they all still around?" And there's really no good answer.

Eldan
2009-08-26, 06:16 PM
Heh.

The Council of Elrond. Gimli steps up to the ring, lifts his axe.

Gimli: "If the ring must be destroyed, let us destroy it!"

He lifts his axe and strikes the ring, which instantly shatters into a thousand pieces.

Elrond: "So, now that this is done, who would like some tea and cookies?

Tiki Snakes
2009-08-26, 06:23 PM
Heh.

The Council of Elrond. Gimli steps up to the ring, lifts his axe.

Gimli: "If the ring must be destroyed, let us destroy it!"

He lifts his axe and strikes the ring, which instantly shatters into a thousand pieces.

Elrond: "So, now that this is done, who would like some tea and cookies?

There are many ways that book could have gone, that it didn't (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yqVD0swvWU).

Eldan
2009-08-26, 06:26 PM
Oh, I haven't seen that one in a while. Thank you :smallbiggrin:

Also, I love your avatar. It's simply adorable. :smallredface:

Samb
2009-08-26, 06:45 PM
The secondhand description I saw earlier in the other thread was that he had used it to destroy the multiverse. Which isn't really the same thing, even if it did incidentally get destroyed along with everything else.

You're just arguing semantics because you can't admit you are wrong.

Venca wanted to destroy the multiverse by destroying it's keystone: Sigil. So yes, he was trying to destroy Sigil, by destroying it the whole multiverse would collapse.

Darkwood wanted to destroy her, by severing her connection with Sigil and taking her spot. So no, he wasn't trying to destroy Sigil, but conquer it. I brought him up to show the OP that if the Lady really wanted "her peace to reign" it would happen with ridiculous ease. What the PCs did was not novel or "awesome" by any stretch of the imagination.

If the DM had done any research on Planescape it would have been apparent to him as well.


Eldan: Is that Ciaphas Cain?

Eldan
2009-08-26, 06:49 PM
Just a generic comissar, in a steampunk costume. I don't even know why I have him, to be honest: I play Eldar, not IG, and have just about nothing in common with a comissar.

Samb
2009-08-26, 06:54 PM
Aww IG are so underrated and no one uses them I was hoping to find another fan of them.

RagnaroksChosen
2009-08-26, 08:16 PM
There are many ways that book could have gone, that it didn't (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yqVD0swvWU).

That made me laugh but again re-enforces the point.
I wonder if the Original poster is going to post in this thread again?

I mainly want to know why he did it?

Samb
2009-08-26, 08:46 PM
That made me laugh but again re-enforces the point.
I wonder if the Original poster is going to post in this thread again?

I mainly want to know why he did it?

Because he didn't know? Because he has something against Planescape and felt Zeb Cook's vision should be thrown to the wayside? Because I is an enabling DM?

I personally think its a combo of the fact that he just can't say no to his players and ignorance of the rules which made it even easier to trample all over him. I don't think he will be posting here anymore since deep down he knows this was a blunder on his part.

His attempt to enforce order by sending a dabus to declare the Lady's peace was met with scorn by the PCs and easily overcome non-epic illusions. He was dumbfounded and let the players run the asylum since he did not know what to do afterwards.

RagnaroksChosen
2009-08-26, 11:26 PM
Because he didn't know? Because he has something against Planescape and felt Zeb Cook's vision should be thrown to the wayside? Because I is an enabling DM?

I personally think its a combo of the fact that he just can't say no to his players and ignorance of the rules which made it even easier to trample all over him. I don't think he will be posting here anymore since deep down he knows this was a blunder on his part.

His attempt to enforce order by sending a dabus to declare the Lady's peace was met with scorn by the PCs and easily overcome non-epic illusions. He was dumbfounded and let the players run the asylum since he did not know what to do afterwards.

Hmm i think that came off a bit more dickish then i wanted. I was just curious about his thought proccess on it. I ask alot of gms why they did some thing or what there justification for it was...

Samb
2009-08-27, 12:16 AM
Hmm i think that came off a bit more dickish then i wanted. I was just curious about his thought proccess on it. I ask alot of gms why they did some thing or what there justification for it was...

Most DMs would say: they caught me by surprise. He didn't think his PCs would go that far or even think of something like that.

This acutaully happens a lot, not so much in PbP games since you have time to think and research between posts. When everyone is sitting around a table waiting for your response it's easy to draw a blank when something you didn't account for turns up.

Which is why an ironclad understanding of your setting and rules will help you avoid this.

Grey Knight
2009-08-27, 03:12 AM
I wonder if the Original poster is going to post in this thread again?

Doubtful. People have already ripped him a new one and told him what a bad person he is, at length, so he'd have to be some kind of masochist to come back for another lashing.

misterk
2009-08-27, 04:39 AM
Because he didn't know? Because he has something against Planescape and felt Zeb Cook's vision should be thrown to the wayside? Because I is an enabling DM?

I personally think its a combo of the fact that he just can't say no to his players and ignorance of the rules which made it even easier to trample all over him. I don't think he will be posting here anymore since deep down he knows this was a blunder on his part.

His attempt to enforce order by sending a dabus to declare the Lady's peace was met with scorn by the PCs and easily overcome non-epic illusions. He was dumbfounded and let the players run the asylum since he did not know what to do afterwards.

And yet... he seems to be proud of his players, and enjoying himself. Thats weird, its almost like his conception of fun isn't identical to yours? OK, you disagree with the op, you don't like the ruling... do you really have to attack him so vehemently? He's playing a game by different rules, and if you want to justify anything the Lady of Pain does one can just say that she felt like allowing it if necessary.

Op, keep having fun!

RagnaroksChosen
2009-08-27, 06:30 AM
Most DMs would say: they caught me by surprise. He didn't think his PCs would go that far or even think of something like that.

This acutaully happens a lot, not so much in PbP games since you have time to think and research between posts. When everyone is sitting around a table waiting for your response it's easy to draw a blank when something you didn't account for turns up.

Which is why an ironclad understanding of your setting and rules will help you avoid this.

I guess... When ever stuff like this happens the gm usualy calls a smoke break or a bathroom break so they can think it over a bit.

misterk: ya im glad hes having fun. Just don't call it planescape or be like Look how awsome my players are they just thwarted sigil/lady of pain.


Edit: Mabye this is my inate fear generated by 4chan but i wonder if we just got trolled?

Samb
2009-08-27, 09:18 AM
I'm a bit confused as to why everyone equates rule enforcement with party pooping. You all realize that without rules this would not be a game right? I mean I hated getting called for a foul in basketball but I understand the need for such a rule. I don't curse out the ref and declare he's making b-ball unfun.

Are you telling that an easy win is more fun than a challenging one? His players might have fun but as a DM he should search for ways to improve, and I do think he would have created a much better experience if he enforced the rules.

My idea of fun is that I overcome challenges set by the rules, that's the reason anyone would play a game in the first place. Players will test limits, like any competitior, a DM's job is to show them where the line is. By agreeing to play the implicit agreement that "I will follow the rules" is already in effect. I really don't see why anyone would be offended by this thought.

Tiki Snakes
2009-08-27, 10:48 AM
My idea of fun...

Is YOUR idea of fun, no-one elses. Ignoring every other single point that I could possibly raise, what happened here is that you indulged in personal attacks because he was having fun in a way that was different to yours. That's it.

THAT is party pooping.

Samb
2009-08-27, 11:14 AM
Is YOUR idea of fun, no-one elses. Ignoring every other single point that I could possibly raise, what happened here is that you indulged in personal attacks because he was having fun in a way that was different to yours. That's it.

THAT is party pooping.

now now taking only a small section of my post and making it the only thing relevent is strawmaning, and not an acceptable means of debate. I continued to say, just by sitting at the table you are signing an agreement: I will follow the rules. By being a DM you agreed to enforce. This is implicit when you do ANYTHING. It's not just me. Rules are what makes a game, it is an objective fact.

I said all this already of course, please don't misrepresent me just so you can "win".

misterk
2009-08-27, 11:34 AM
I'm a bit confused as to why everyone equates rule enforcement with party pooping. You all realize that without rules this would not be a game right? I mean I hated getting called for a foul in basketball but I understand the need for such a rule. I don't curse out the ref and declare he's making b-ball unfun.

Are you telling that an easy win is more fun than a challenging one? His players might have fun but as a DM he should search for ways to improve, and I do think he would have created a much better experience if he enforced the rules.

My idea of fun is that I overcome challenges set by the rules, that's the reason anyone would play a game in the first place. Players will test limits, like any competitior, a DM's job is to show them where the line is. By agreeing to play the implicit agreement that "I will follow the rules" is already in effect. I really don't see why anyone would be offended by this thought.

Sure, follow the rules. Which, as has been noted, are different for the op. Also, asserting that the only reason to play a game in the first place is to overcome challenges set by the rules?

My main reason for playing roleplaying games is to roleplay, discovering a character and how that character reacts to the gm's story. Along the way, I might enjoy overcoming challenges, but thats really not the main issue for me. We can of course broaden the term challenges to encompass my approach, but then we can always broaden the rules.

I don't disagree that under your rule set what happened shouldn't of, and if a DM did it to you, you'd be disappointed. But you're not playing this game, you're not the gm! Feel free to disagree, but aggresively attacking the op is, to my mind, not on at all.

RagnaroksChosen
2009-08-27, 01:15 PM
This is going to devolve quickly...

its a set of different views of gaming.

Samb sounds like a Simulationist.

I my self am a Simulationist/gamer.

Tiki Snakes is mostlikly a dramatasist..

Like i said it will quickly devolve. Talking about game mechanics and how a setting is set up.. is more of a simulationist argument the OP wanted to know how the Lady would react. We told him he ignored it. through in a situation that would quit quickly devolve if he put some thought into it.

Yes it does apear that me and Samb are very defencive about our Planescape. If your playing a modified version of planescape awsome good for you but it looses all cool points when you pull punches and do things that according to story and setting wouldn't happen.

I think you guys are taking this to harshly me and Samb are just saying that he failed as a GM for not taking into account these things. There is nothing wrong with what he did as far as fun is concerned. It does sound like fun in a semi planescape type game.


The major issue for me is he broke versititude... crap i can never remember the word... where the story doesn't make sense and it looses its "realness"(not real as in reality but real as in credibility). That's realy what im arguing is that he fails as a gm for breaking it.

Herbstfarben
2009-08-27, 03:04 PM
Reality is unrealistic.


The major issue for me is he broke versititude... crap i can never remember the word... where the story doesn't make sense and it looses its "realness"(not real as in reality but real as in credibility). That's realy what im arguing is that he fails as a gm for breaking it.

Stories even more. Heroes that win against impossible odds? It happens all the time.
Blowing up a planetsized spacestation as a first level jedi knight? Done.
Destroying the one ring even though you are a just hobbit and the enemy is totally evil? Done.
Blowing up a city at the crossroads of the universe? Stonk.

I disagree about the implication that you have to read everything regarding a certain campaign world before being 'allowed' to play a game in it. If you want to set up a planescape campaign after reading just wiki that sounds fine for me. I don't understand why certain posters are so rude in opposition to that idea.

Kylarra
2009-08-27, 03:09 PM
I disagree about the implication that you have to read everything regarding a certain campaign world before being 'allowed' to play a game in it. If you want to set up a planescape campaign after reading just wiki that sounds fine for me. I don't understand why certain posters are so rude in opposition to that idea.
To cross post, because some people are far more eloquent than myself, though.


The entire debate generated by this thread could have been averted if the OP had made the setting clear from the begining. He chose to say (paraphrase) "My players started a civil war in Sigil" "My players destroyed Sigil." All without bothering to include the rather important tidbit that he was not using published or reasonably expected backstory associated with what the vast majority of the contributors to these boards know as Sigil.



The entire post is longer and if you want to read it in its entirety, it is also still relevant, but I am just quoting the opening for the sake of brevity.

RagnaroksChosen
2009-08-27, 07:12 PM
Reality is unrealistic.



Stories even more. Heroes that win against impossible odds? It happens all the time.
Blowing up a planetsized spacestation as a first level jedi knight? Done.
Destroying the one ring even though you are a just hobbit and the enemy is totally evil? Done.
Blowing up a city at the crossroads of the universe? Stonk.

I disagree about the implication that you have to read everything regarding a certain campaign world before being 'allowed' to play a game in it. If you want to set up a planescape campaign after reading just wiki that sounds fine for me. I don't understand why certain posters are so rude in opposition to that idea.

Right but i bet you wouldn't go to a group of hardcore fans and say o ya my group did this isnt it awsome... They would all look at you and go no cuz it doesn't follow the setting...


I have to agree with Kylarra. If he had said that this was his own version of sigil that would have been completly different.


To further ephisis both of your posts...

Its like some one coming on here and saying there first level human fighter Mind controlled some undead into doing a river dance... ya it sounds nifty but just doesn't work by RAW.

Tiki Snakes
2009-08-27, 07:29 PM
Its like some one coming on here and saying there first level human fighter Mind controlled some undead into doing a river dance... ya it sounds nifty but just doesn't work by RAW.

That would be a pretty amusing anecdote, told right. :)

Samb
2009-08-27, 11:42 PM
I thought the OP handled the situation totally wrong and said why I felt that way. And from most of the posts I see here a lot of people agree with me, but have objections to my tone.

Realism has nothing to do with a RPG, this is a game and a story. A good story will convincingly protray unrealistic events in a realistic way. That is the heart of any good fiction. If you can't do that then you lose suspention of disbelief and hence fail as a writer.

The OP lost a lot of you in how he handled the situation hence he failed as a DM. I'm sure he's a swell guy IRL, maybe he's usually an more assertive DM, but this was clearly not one of those times.

Most DMs will at some point in their careers be hit by something completly out of the box and be stumpted. This should happen and it is at these times where your mettle as a DM is tested. Ox did not pass.

Sorry I don't sugar coat it, I say as it is.

misterk
2009-08-28, 05:15 AM
But this where I fundamentally disagree with you in that he DIDN'T fail as a GM. He's happy. His players are happy. Frankly, thats pretty good work, and long may he continue. If he was here complaining because he couldn't control his players and he couldn't see how to stop them destroying sigil, that would be another issue. That would be an utter failure as a gm. If he was claiming his players hated his campaign because it seemed too easy, but he had no way as a gm to stop them without breaking rules, that would be a failure as a gm.

This is what he did

"Hey guys I love my players, this is a cool ancedote from one of my games"

Everyone else

"We love the lady of pain! How dare you mess with her! You are a terrible gm!"

Do you not see the issue here?

Dixieboy
2009-08-28, 05:23 AM
Misterk

just give it up, people before you have already tried to tell them that "Fun is the most important thing".
They don't care.

Eldan
2009-08-28, 05:26 AM
Well, not exactly. At least from my viewpoint, it was slightly different (well, not exactly like this, but it was the effect I intended with my posts.)

"Hey! My players did something in Sigil, what would the Lady do?"

"Well, she would maze them, probably."

"Oh. Well, they did this cool thing, actually, which is different, and the lady didn'^t react at all."

"Nice. But you know that, theoretically, in Planescape, things would have gone otherwise, right? How will you go on from here?"

*silence*

Then, yes, followed some rabid discussion about how the Lady is all-powerful and so on. I don't exactly agree with that, but I can see that there are a lot of different viewpoints around, and different ideas on what makes a fun game. I agree that knowing the setting and rules is important for a GM, but in the end, both are secondary to the group having fun.

misterk
2009-08-28, 05:31 AM
Wow,
My (the player's) PC's (in a game i DM).
In Sigil, tghey started by dopplinganging harmonium, and having them fire at mercykillers, and then did the reverse.
until about two dozen harmonium were fighting a dozen mercykillers were.

some Dao EDIT Dabus walk through:
"There will be peace, the Ladies Peace upon the city"
the PC's screw with the wording (using illusions), and change it too thigns like "There will be War, the Ladies War upon the City"
And "There will Be One, and only the One" (a reference to the way the lady said there would be only 15 factions, and also the the faction The One."

The Lady appears.
Banishes the fighting Harmonium and Mercykillers.
but not before word of what's happened has spread though the city.
the PC's hightail it out of there (they were off hiding in a side alley).

By nightfall there was wides scale rioting.
and the Anarcist are parading through the city.
The Lady has be seen everywhere - the most active she's been in the city in years. banishing huge numbers of rioters to the Mazes.
I'm guessing by next Dawn over an eight of the population will be in the mazes.

How Awesome are my players!"




Originally Posted by Yora View Post
If I were them, I'd leave the city and never come back.
I think the Lady is more than capable to find out who started the whole thing.
yep,
but right now she's to busy putting down the rioters.
Though then again she never saw the PC's and everyone else saw only saw a variety of people (doppleganger), and all of them have been Mazed.

They're strongly considering running.
City of Glass is lookiung safe right now.
Heck the negitive energy plane looks safe now





The Lady (in my setting) doesn't care what mortals do.
With the exception of open large scale fighing on thbe steets.
The Lady won't have War in her Plane.

She is perfectly happy to maze the whole city, more will come.

There is only one person (other than the Dabus and the Lady) who has a real solid chance (without using a powerful scrying ritual).
is a Harmoinum Investigate that was eyeing them off (who they then followed to the Ladies ward, before starting this all of)
And I know he escaped.
so soon he'll be investigating.
and the Harmoinum will know.
and the Mercykillers, and the guvnors will know.
and then they'll burn.
if the Lady doesn't get them first.

How long in game should they have to escape the plane i wonder?
Probably once hte rioting has gone down to a simmer.



Doesn't... sound like he wants advice, does it? Seriously, read the thread again, and see if it doesn't come across as someone posting a fun story and everyone else telling him to stop having fun.

Well, to be fair, there are a few people who seemed happy to support him, but sadly they quietened down after a while.

Eldan
2009-08-28, 05:51 AM
With "asking for advice" I meant this post:



I mean how long before she maze them.
How long they have to erscape sigil.
I'ld say until the riots die down then maybe 12 hours.
and then she puts them in a maze.

misterk
2009-08-28, 06:17 AM
With "asking for advice" I meant this post:

Yeah, but the issue was I think that while he did ask this midway through, no-one read the previous posts where he had explicitly stated stated that the lady is different to what the other posters seem to think. It looks like the op has gone, so I am done defending him, but I really think the level of vehemence on display by some was uncalled for.

Eldan
2009-08-28, 06:25 AM
Oh, I'm aware of that. He said his Lady didn't care about mortals much, as long as there wasn't an open war. Now there was open war, and the PCs were the cause. He asked how long it would take for her to maze them. My thought was, of course "Speed of Plot", with a liberal sprinkling of "As fast as she wants to".

But really, at this point, this is mostly a discussion of "FUN is FUN!" vs. "RULES make FUN!" and I can't even really say which side I'm on.

Killer Angel
2009-08-28, 06:50 AM
This is what he did

"Hey guys I love my players, this is a cool ancedote from one of my games"

Everyone else

"We love the lady of pain! How dare you mess with her! You are a terrible gm!"

Do you not see the issue here?

mmm... he could have said:
"Hey guys I love my players, they are 2° lev. pc and they killed a Great Wyrm!"

Even if they really have fun, and the Dm gives them a good session (i don't want to deny that, not even for a moment), do you really think that on a forum you'll find the majority of people saying:
"Yeah, your players are great" or "wow, you played very well the Great Wyrm"?


Misterk just give it up, people before you have already tried to tell them that "Fun is the most important thing".
They don't care.

Fun IS important, and it's the first thing, but verisimilitude is important also, and is another aspect we like to appreciate.

Samb
2009-08-28, 06:53 AM
He did ask for advice, he did send dabus to warn the PCs. He tried to send the Lady and it was met with equal scorn. He asked how the Lady would have handled the situation, got the answer and realized he already FUBAR'd the setting.

Don't give the "he never asked for advice". This is a public forum, I don't need his permission to speak my voice. I have said "in my opintion you fail as a GM and here is why". I find it hypocritical that I am getting heat for something most of you agree with.

I would not want him running my campaign, he clearly cannot set boundaries to his players. Both are very apparent, whether you like my tone should not blur the fact that he didn't know the setting he was running, and didn't bother to do the research.

I'm sick of hearing "I don't agree with the OP but....." Yes it is my opinion that he is not a good DM. MY OPINION. He comes saying what a wonderful thing he has done when many feel it wasn't. I point it out and I'm the bad guy?

Killer Angel
2009-08-28, 07:06 AM
I point it out and I'm the bad guy?

You need to do better worst than this, to became a true BBEG. :smalltongue:

Gnorman
2009-08-28, 07:18 AM
I think the basic issue here is that he asked for advice, it was given, and then he seemingly shot our advice down with his interpretation of the setting. It's his right to change it, and the players' right to have fun, but it's kind of a blow to the ego to have someone ask you for input and then dismiss it outright.

Of course, he could have just been offering clarification. In which case, it becomes the old Jack vs. the Grognard debate.

Samb
2009-08-28, 07:33 AM
You need to do better worst than this, to became a true BBEG. :smalltongue:

It's because your houserules nerf me.

Kylarra
2009-08-28, 08:59 AM
But this where I fundamentally disagree with you in that he DIDN'T fail as a GM. He's happy. His players are happy. Frankly, thats pretty good work, and long may he continue. If he was here complaining because he couldn't control his players and he couldn't see how to stop them destroying sigil, that would be another issue. That would be an utter failure as a gm. If he was claiming his players hated his campaign because it seemed too easy, but he had no way as a gm to stop them without breaking rules, that would be a failure as a gm.

This is what he did

"Hey guys I love my players, this is a cool ancedote from one of my games"

Everyone else

"We love the lady of pain! How dare you mess with her! You are a terrible gm!"

Do you not see the issue here?
Er if you're pretty big on ignoring the fact that he asked for advice then you get baseless bragging

How Awesome are my players! :smallcool:

on the lines of...

If you start a thread that says, "Three of my first level players killed an entire army of trolls, how much gold should they find on the corpses?"
And the thread replies collectively with "Whut? How could they have pulled that off?"
And the answer is "in my campaign, trolls are actually six inches tall and fabulously wealthy"...

Then the answer is going to be "Well, we obviously have no idea" from everyone who's picturing regenerating giants with insatiable hunger.


Which is pretty much what happened here then.

Muz
2009-08-28, 04:12 PM
I'm sick of hearing "I don't agree with the OP but....." Yes it is my opinion that he is not a good DM. MY OPINION. He comes saying what a wonderful thing he has done when many feel it wasn't. I point it out and I'm the bad guy?

How would you feel if someone said "You failed at posting?"

Yes, he very likely violated the spirit of the Planescape setting and the established power of the Lady. A lot of people have (rightly) pointed out that he's allowing his players to do things that the setting wouldn't allow. They're correct. A lot of other people have pointed out the viewpoint that what's more important than adhering to the spirit of the setting is whether or not everyone's having fun (which I would personally argue is more the spirit of D&D itself). Some people have differing values, and that's fine, too.

Those people would likely think, as you do Samb, that he didn't do a good job as a DM by those guidelines. Okay, that's not such a bad thing to say, either. I think what rubbed a lot of people the wrong way, myself included, is the way you said it. Very clip, very judgmental, very adversarial, and not, therefore, very friendly or diplomatic. You may not have meant it as such, but it really came across as: "You suck."

RagnaroksChosen
2009-08-29, 04:09 PM
How would you feel if someone said "You failed at posting?"

Yes, he very likely violated the spirit of the Planescape setting and the established power of the Lady. A lot of people have (rightly) pointed out that he's allowing his players to do things that the setting wouldn't allow. They're correct. A lot of other people have pointed out the viewpoint that what's more important than adhering to the spirit of the setting is whether or not everyone's having fun (which I would personally argue is more the spirit of D&D itself). Some people have differing values, and that's fine, too.

Those people would likely think, as you do Samb, that he didn't do a good job as a DM by those guidelines. Okay, that's not such a bad thing to say, either. I think what rubbed a lot of people the wrong way, myself included, is the way you said it. Very clip, very judgmental, very adversarial, and not, therefore, very friendly or diplomatic. You may not have meant it as such, but it really came across as: "You suck."

Why does he need to sugar coat it. The OP did fail as a GM. pretty blatantly to. He wasn't being un-civil about it. he was just being blunt which there is nothing wrong with.

I saw it more of a You suck because then just you suck. I think people took it as just a you suck because the moment people see that they imidiatly feel bad. and don't read the rest of it.

Samb
2009-08-29, 05:44 PM
Many people have basically said I do fail at posting. But guess what? I put up posts with the expectation that it could be criticized for it grammer, it's content, or even tone. I never asked for the lessons in grammer, or diplomacy but you guys gave it to me anyway.

And you know what it's your right. Just like it is my right to say: you fail as a GM and here's why. There are my reasons and my opinions and I stated them. The fact is I was more direct about while everyone else beat around the bush. You won't hear me say "well.... As long as you having fun, just that i would not have done that." you guys might feel that is diplomatic but to me I feel that it smacks of passive aggressive. Just my approach.


In my book he failed as a DM. Epically. I am entitled to my opinions right?