[3.5/d20 Rebirth] Altering Metamagic

[Fax Celestis]

So I'm looking at my options for the Wizard class and thinking to myself, "One of the biggest problems with 3.5 wizards is metamagic." Most of the tricks and atypical cheesy uses of spells (ie: the locate city bomb or twinned split empowered enervation) stem from the stacking or abuse of metamagic.

The other problem with metamagic is that it messes with the action economy: a wizard can essentially get two standard actions in a round with a single feat, Quicken Spell. There's no means for a fighter to do the same thing without significant financial and/or specialized feat investment.

So, then, I've taken into consideration the possibility of remaking metamagic into swift-action spells. Yes, this steps all over quicken, but I'm not sure that that's a problem. Say you want to empower your fireball. You cast empower spell, a 2nd level swift-action spell whose ability reads "The next spell you cast this turn deals an extra 50% damage."*

While this does mean that Quicken essentially becomes impossible (barring class features that allow you to cast a spell as a swift action a limited number of times per day (and which thereby also precludes the use of metamagic on your second spell that round (nested parens ftw))), it also means that spells, in general, will be more fluid.

In contrast to this, I've also considered making metamagic feats into stance-like things: you can have one metamagic feat on at a time, and they have smaller benefits. For instance, Empower Spell as a stance could make it so that your spells deal +1 damage per die while active, but automatically applies to all your spells without any adjustment or action. Similarly, Extend Spell could cause all your spells to last for extra rounds equal to your casting modifier. The catch is that, again barring special high-level class features, you would only be able to apply one at a time.

*The d20r wizard is going to look more like a beguiler when it comes to spellcasting, so don't go into the "oh god why do I have to prepare all this metamagic" argument--it's not going to work that way.

[Eldariel]

Eh, this seems largely unnecessary - the real problem isn't metamagic but two-three things that allow getting much more metamagic on one spell than you'd have any business getting. For example, the infamous Orb of Fire-boost involves:

Energy Substitution (+0)
Energy Admixture (+4)
Twin Spell (+4)
Empower Spell (+2)
Maximize Spell (+3)
Invisible Spell (+0)
Born of Three Thunders (+0)

Or +13 to the spell level. How is this doable? Thanks to Incantatrix, Easy Metamagic/Practical Metamagic and a questionable reading of Arcane Thesis. Incantatrix gets an epic feat on level 15 and is automatically broken. Arcane Thesis should only reduce the overall spell level of a metamagicked spell by 1 - instead, it's written to reduce every metamagic applied to the spell by 1 and can reduce them to negatives as long as the total spell level isn't under the normal spell level.

So, Arcane Thesis+Incantatrix alone gives us adjustments:

Energy Substitution (-1)
Energy Admixture (+2)
Twin Spell (+2)
Empower Spell (+0)
Maximize Spell (+1)
Invisible Spell (-1)
Born of Three Thunders (-1)

Or +2 overall level. Toss Quicken for additional +2; use Easy Metamagic/Practical Metamagic for no adjustment at all.


However, this problem is solely the territory of Incantatrix and Arcane Thesis. Remove Incantatrix from the equation and you'll need a ton of Easy Metamagic just to get to something castable at level 9 (+5) and then make Arcane Thesis apply only once per spell and you can't be casting that spell before way, way into epic.

My point is that I think you're barking at the wrong tree here - nothing is wrong with metamagic in and of itself (though if you want to, you can limit the amount of metamagic that can be applied on a single spell at any given time), but rather one feat and one class that make applying metamagic too easy. Metamagic Rods and Divine Metamagic are other huge offenders here, both capable of exceeding the maximum level of spells you can cast (removing metamagic rods and capping Divine Metamagic to levels you could normally cast solves that nicely).


Really, getting Empowered, Maximized Enervation on level 9 slot doesn't seem broken; 4+1d4/2 or average of 5 negative levels is what Energy Drain alone does on average, and that's without investing two feats into the deal. The change you are suggesting really just makes metamagic not worth using.

Split Ray Maximized Enervation is slightly better at 8 negative levels, but that's still two feats invested, and Enervation is from the higher end of the power spectrum of Rays; borderline broken due to lacking a save.

So yeah, I don't really think this type of a rework is necessary. It may actually improve most metamagic feats, but I'm not sure you want someone to be able to cast Twin Spell Enervation on level 7.

Quicken is its own factor, but it's worth noting that most of Quicken's power comes from some low-level spells being extremely powerful way beyond their level (such as Glitterdust and Web). If such spells are addressed, Quicken seems rather tame in the end.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

I agree with Eldariel that metamagic reducers are more of a problem than metamagic itself, but that's not to say metamagic isn't a problem at all. Given the choice between your two proposals, I'd probably go with the swift-action spells idea--I'm also all for getting rid of Quicken, and I'm fairly sure it'll work out in play because that's how 2e metamagic worked.

Another option I've seen thrown around is having metamagic automatically apply to spells of a certain level or lower (like the old epic Automatic Metamagic feats), of course keeping the 1-per-spell restriction. For instance, you might take the Empower Spell feat and you can automatically empower 0th-2nd level spells with no extra actions required. Take it again and you can empower 3rd-5th, etc. A variation on this would be having the maximum spell level dependent on the number of feats you have: Take Silent Spell and you can silence 1st-level spells; take Still Spell after than and you can silence or still 2nd-level spells, and so on.

[Cedrass]

Well, I never played a Wizard long enough to see what exactly is the problem, the metamagics themselves or the reducers. However I want to add this: even if metamagics are not the problem, Fax's way of handling metamagics is really "clean". I love the fact that it wouldn't increase the spell's level, but would instead cost an action to use.

[Douglas]

Metamagic itself is not the problem, nor is stacking multiple metamagics on the same spell. All the various ways to reduce or replace its cost is what you really need to get rid of.

Empowered Fireball as a 5th level spell? No problem. Empowered Maximized Fireball for an 8th level slot? Quite reasonable. Twinned Fire Admixed Searing Fiery Blistering Empowered Maximized Fireball for a 4th level slot? Utterly broken. The same thing in epic for a 20th level slot? Probably a bit weak, actually.

I'm hard pressed to think of even one metamagic feat or combination of metamagic feats in a WotC 3.5 book that is not reasonably balanced if you are required to actually pay the full normal cost. Even Persistent Spell isn't broken if you are actually required to spend a 9th level slot to use it on a 3rd level spell.

[erikun]

Last I checked, you could use move actions to take swift actions, just as you could use standard actions to take move actions. While this isn't usually an issue, swift-action metamagic means you could apply two metamagics to each spell each round, unless you want to move.

On the other hand, I do like the idea that metamagic distracts you enough that you cannot react to sudden changes in combat - basically what a swift action allows you to do. Unless I'm misremembering what "swift action" refers to.

I think that the selection of metamagic feats is a bigger problem than the metamagic feats themselves. Enlarge Spell isn't anywhere near as problematic as Arcane Thesis + Incantatrix or a Empowered Maximized Enervation, as Eldariel points out.

Is metamagic just for wizards now? I know you've made a major revision of the sorcerer, and old metamagic penalities wouldn't make sense for them anymore. Then again, if you're completely re-writing metamagic, the old metamagic penalities may not apply to the new wizards either....

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Last I checked, you could use move actions to take swift actions, just as you could use standard actions to take move actions. While this isn't usually an issue, swift-action metamagic means you could apply two metamagics to each spell each round, unless you want to move.

As a matter of fact, you can't downgrade moves to swifts, for exactly that reason (well, because of Quicken). Unless it explicitly states you can downgrade, you can't, and it doesn't.

[Frosty]

You can't trade down. This isn't 4e. although I personally houserule you can trade a Standard for Swift, but not a Move for a Swift.

[FMArthur]

I think the biggest problem with metamagic is that without level reducers, metamagic is too expensive to be useful, and if you do have metamagic reducers, it is too good. Blowing large amounts of your daily resources for metamagic made it a problem, though, and your new metamagic doesn't appear to resolve it. It means that a wizard can be preposterously powerful for one encounter and then need to rest - it doesn't reduce the amount of power unleashed in that encounter and it also encourages shortened combat-days to mitigate the downside. Your stance-like system solves this but may just take the fun and flavor out of metamagic. There are only so many interesting things you can do with a passive bonus, and none can be powerful or it breaks just as badly as before.

I don't know how well your suggested metamagic system will work because I've never tried it, Actually, the Spontaneous Divination Wizard/Ultimate Magus I played worked quite similarly to what you're suggesting, but I didn't find it to be less powerful or less costly, just a different way to achieve the same effects with repercussions too similar to the normal way: waste too much resources for too much power. Like a psion with a raised power-point expenditure cap.

A method that one of my groups used to great effect was that metamagic feats worked like metabreath feats, except that they start encounters on cooldown (so you could only use a metamagic feat once every X+1 rounds, where X is the 'spell level adjustment' of the feat). Metamagic reducers were not removed, but you could only use each reducer once per encounter. What it meant was that metamagic was still useful, still limited, fully compatible with existing abilities, and reducers didn't break it to pieces. You might want to consider a similar solution, Fax.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I like your idea of making metamagics take up a swift action.

I would also like to point out that simply stating "You may only have ONE metamagic feat, or class/spell-like ability which duplicates the effects of one, applied to any given spell at any given time" would drastically limit the "Cindy Factor".

[DracoDei]

Just at random I am going to stick my fool neck out and ask if having metamatic costs scale with starting spell level could be good...
For instance, maybe instead of being a static +4 Quicken should be "+50% to initial spell level, rounded up"...

[Violet Octopus]

My main problem with metamagic is that besides enervation, it never seemed like it was worth using the damage-increasing metamagics, as other spells of the same level were just better.

This fixes that, but is using a 2nd level spell to effectively cast one and a half 9th level direct-damage spells potentially overpowered? Unless it's expected all blasters will use metamagic, and this is a way to lift them up against other wizard types.

[Gralamin]

I like the idea, but the exact balance of it is going to be tricky.
Possibly, have "Lesser Empower", "Empower" and "Greater Empower", Lesser would only increase Level 0 -3 spells, Empower would increase 4 - 6, Greater Empower would increase 7 - 9.

[Mongoose87]

I like the idea, but the exact balance of it is going to be tricky.
Possibly, have "Lesser Empower", "Empower" and "Greater Empower", Lesser would only increase Level 0 -3 spells, Empower would increase 4 - 6, Greater Empower would increase 7 - 9.
Or, perhaps they would increase any spell, but by a different amount?

Eg. Lesser +25%, Normal +50%, Greater +75%

[elfmanmagic]

The current sudden metamagic line of feats seems like a very incomplex way of approaching spell alterations. Using the aforementioned swift action to activate seems like an easy way to keep it under control.

[Altair_the_Vexed]

...You cast empower spell, a 2nd level swift-action spell whose ability reads "The next spell you cast this turn deals an extra 50% damage."...
This is essentially how AD&D handled metamagic (without using that name).

I think that, properly codified, this could be the best fix for metamagic. It give flexibility, and uses up more spell slots to off-set the awesomeness of the meta effect.

May I suggest that rather than a swift action, you make the metamagic spells a move action? That would make casting a simple meta effect spell a full round action, and anything more complex a two-round action... Or something similar (maybe steal the 4th Ed style "two swifts make a move" or something).
Yes, that extends the casting time, but I think it has a nice fantasy feel to it - picture your caster weaving out the Empower Spell, then chanting the Widen Spell, then casting the Fireball. Very Final Fantasy.

[lsfreak]

I think it should rather be a combination of both. Many metamagic feats currently are hardly worth anything, let alone spending your action on them. Things like Energy Substitution and Enlarge seem to me like they'd fit better as stance-types; they are simply too situational to be of much use when the action is required to cast them. On the other hand, more powerful and more general-use ones like Empower, Split Ray, or Widen could be swift-action spells.

At higher levels, it could be worthwhile to allow a pair of metamagic spells to be activated at the same time, say casting widen spell and empower spell as a single swift action. Limit this to high levels and low-level spells.

[Ashtagon]

Regardless of whether metamagic spells are swift or move (or even standard or full-round) actions to cast, I think they should be a restriction of no more than one spell can be cast per round, whether metamagic or standard spell. Without such a restriction, you aren't actually creating an opportunity-loss decision for the caster. This extra time delay will also go a long way toward preventing metamagic cheese, and makes the build-up to a truly battle-winning spell suitably dramatic.

[Cedrass]

I think it should rather be a combination of both. Many metamagic feats currently are hardly worth anything, let alone spending your action on them. Things like Energy Substitution and Enlarge seem to me like they'd fit better as stance-types; they are simply too situational to be of much use when the action is required to cast them. On the other hand, more powerful and more general-use ones like Empower, Split Ray, or Widen could be swift-action spells.

At higher levels, it could be worthwhile to allow a pair of metamagic spells to be activated at the same time, say casting widen spell and empower spell as a single swift action. Limit this to high levels and low-level spells.

This, I like.

Also I was wondering about if making them a Move action instead of a swift wasn't better. I mean, a swift action isn't really something you think long and hard before saying that it's alright to lose it. A Move action though, a lot harder to give up. That is of course if you decide to use Isfreak's idea.

[lesser_minion]

I think I'd like to see a system where the caster just modifies her spells as she gains experience. I like the idea of a caster modding her favourite spells as opposed to going with any spell she feels like - it makes a little more sense if you have discrete, defined spells.

A simple way of handling that would be to have metamagic feats where you can simply pick a certain number of spells to modify, and they stay modified until you pick new ones.

Spell modification would go some way towards keeping weaker spells level-appropriate, which would make it easier to streamline spell slots into something non-sucky.


The other problem with metamagic is that it messes with the action economy: a wizard can essentially get two standard actions in a round with a single feat, Quicken Spell. There's no means for a fighter to do the same thing without significant financial and/or specialized feat investment.

You could try something like "Nimble spell" (cast a blasty spell as an attack action) and possibly a "Rapid Casting" feat (cast an extra attack-action spell as part of a full attack) as an alternative to Quicken. It would allow for faster casting but only on the same - or worse - terms as mundane attacks.


*The d20r wizard is going to look more like a beguiler when it comes to spellcasting, so don't go into the "oh god why do I have to prepare all this metamagic" argument--it's not going to work that way.

I don't particularly like the idea of eliminating prepared casting while leaving spontaneous casting in the game as it stands because it essentially fixes the wrong issue. Having to prepare spells in advance didn't suck. Having to make sure that X or fewer spells were prepared that were of level Y or lower did, and it was even worse for spontaneous casters.

I think "You may prepare 56 points worth of spells" and "You may prepare 7 spells of up to caster level 8" would both be better fixes for Vancian casting than switching to spontaneous, although the best solution might be to create some sort of hybrid - let a character design, pick and choose a small selection of "favoured spells" from all of the spells and metamagic they know, and allow them to cast a limited number of favoured spells per day. Balance is achieved by allowing all favoured spells to be customised up to the same point.

You could also allow them to pick one or two "mastered spells" and cast those at will.

You could avoid a "Why do I have to prepare all of this metamagic" issue by making the metamagic spells into metamagic SLAs.

EDIT - Sorry about the thread necromancy. I managed to interpret the last post as being just under six weeks ago, as opposed to being just over ten weeks.

[Set]

The other problem with metamagic is that it messes with the action economy: a wizard can essentially get two standard actions in a round with a single feat, Quicken Spell. There's no means for a fighter to do the same thing without significant financial and/or specialized feat investment.

To deal with this specific problem, it might be easier to just say that a spellcaster can only cast a single spell in a round, and that Quicken merely allows the spellcaster to take a normal full-round or double-move action in the same round as quickcasting a spell. With this limitation, you may (or may not) find it acceptable to reduce the cost for Quicken to +3.


In contrast to this, I've also considered making metamagic feats into stance-like things: you can have one metamagic feat on at a time, and they have smaller benefits. For instance, Empower Spell as a stance could make it so that your spells deal +1 damage per die while active, but automatically applies to all your spells without any adjustment or action. Similarly, Extend Spell could cause all your spells to last for extra rounds equal to your casting modifier. The catch is that, again barring special high-level class features, you would only be able to apply one at a time.

This is an *awesome* idea. I'd love to buy a 'blaster stance' that allows my evoker to do +1 damage / die to all attacks, or a 'summoner's stance' that allows all of my summoned critters to be enhanced (replacing Augment Summons), etc.

[Anonymouswizard]

This is great, can someone point me to the rest of D20 rebirth?

And also, if your getting rid of prepared casting get rid of spell slots, and if you impliment the psion i think it could work better as a warlock.

[lesser_minion]

This is great, can someone point me to the rest of D20 rebirth?


All the important links are in Fax's sig.

As far as I can tell, the Psion is going to be the least altered class in d20r, simply because the psionics rules were some of the best implemented in mundane d20.